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ISPs Claim Title II Regulations Don't Apply To the Internet Because "Computers"
New submitter Gryle writes: ArsTechnica is reporting on an interesting legal tactic by ISPs in the net neutrality fight. In a 95-page brief the United States Telecom Association claims Internet access qualifies as information service, not a telecommunication service, because it involves computer processing. The brief further claims "The FCC's reclassification of mobile broadband internet access as a common-carrier service is doubly unlawful." (page 56)
...except it all falls on its face because ultimately, the networks of computers are being used to communicate data between humans and other computers. hence telecommunication.
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
The United States Telecom Association is arguing that its biggest service is not a telecom. Right...
The issue is the franchise licenses that give cable companies last mile monopolies on internet service.
Open up last mile delivery of service to more providers... or you're handing ISPs a government backed monopoly contract.
Fiber optic cable is CHEAP. I could run cable from where I live to the trunk line for at most a couple grand... And that would service about 10 gigabit internet connections.
This whole issue is like the stupid debates we always have about entrenched government backed monopolies versus just "anyone"...
Look at what is happening with cellphones versus the land line providers. Land line prices are collapsing and that is because people are ditching them for cellphones which is a "less" monopolistic market.
Look, anyone that knows anything will tell you... give one company the ability to dictate prices and they're going to exploit it.
Period.
And the government really isn't any better here. You give the government the ability to dictate prices or control the service and they're going to do the same thing where they'll either slack off because you're not going to fire them if they're lazy... or they'll just bill you more through your taxes... and you can't even fire the fucks.
So look... if you want service that isn't shitty... you need some competition. You need people to be able to vote with their feet and their wallets. They have to be able to say "this service is shitty so I shall give it ZERO dollars and this service is superior so I shall give it whatever seems reasonable to me."
And that controls prices.
In any market or industry or situation where that is not happening market forces cannot control prices. Consumers have to have choices. And the choice between DSL and Cable is bullshit.
We shouldn't even be maintaining the copper lines anymore. Its fucking dumb. Fiber or choke on yak semen.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
I would believe it if it came from the United States Information Association
Is it that interesting or just a polite way of saying desperate? All telecommunication is done with computers these days.
EVERY call made in the US today is processed by "computers", long gone are the days when you had old style analog switches and rotary phones.
Since every call made is already processed in one way or another by a computer this has set a precedent over the past several decades that gives the FCC the legal power they need to enforce these rules.
Yes, AC. The cow says 'moo'.
The pig says 'oink'.
The chickens say 'cluck cluck'.
The horse says 'neigh'.
The duck says 'quack quack'.
The geese say 'honk honk'.
The sheep say 'baaaa'.
The dog says 'woof'.
The frog says 'ribbit'.
The coyote says 'aaaahwoooooo'.
The rooster says 'cockadoodledoo!'.
The cat says 'meow'.
And the turkey says 'gooble gobble'.
Now please go play with your See and Say quietly somewhere else, k? The adults are having a conversation, sweetie. If you're good, maybe you'll get a cookie later.
************
Now, then, ISPs: I have only one thing to say about them and all their little temper tantrums they keep having: MUH PROFIT MARGIN. Get over it, ISPs, and get correct.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
..basically since 1891, when the Strowger switch was invented. And if you don't know the story behind this; it's really worth looking up if only to discover that undertakers were an important part of early telephony progress...
I mean, really.
Where do you find information on the internet?
Its full of trolls.
Yesterday I needed to find the windows setting to turn off the critical battery level shutoff.
The full first page of google "disable low battery shutdown windows 7" (with exception of superuser.com)
consists of OMG WHY WANT DO THAT U SO STUPID.
Just fyi its required to calibrate the battery meter on many computers.
If google sent you here this is what you need;
powercfg -setdcvalueindex SCHEME_CURRENT SUB_BATTERY BATACTIONCRIT 0
and
powercfg -H off
Your welcome.
Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
This argument was even more interesting 13 years ago when the FCC ruled "that cable modem service is properly classified as an interstate information service and is therefore subject to FCC jurisdiction." https://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/News_Releases/2002/nrcb0201.html
You might think that gives the ISPs a slam-dunk case, but what makes this complex is the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit's decision in the Portland case, which classified cable modem service as both an "information service" and "telecommunications service." Since Congress hasn't passed subsequent laws to pick between those choices, the FCC most likely has the freedom to freely switch between the two...
what does the fox say?
Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
Yes, AC.
It's sexconker. He thinks the moo cow thing is funny.
The Fox sez " Vote republican"
So, AT&T long distance service hasn't been a telecommunications service but, instead, an information service since the 1980's because computers? Go ahead, AT&T, back this argument, retroactively lose common carrier status for your long distance network from the moment you computerized it, and for your POTS network from the moment you merged with the mini-Bells. I wonder how many of the felonies that were committed while utilizing your network are still within their statute of limitations...
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
Practically every cellphone call is "processed" though a digital filter... so cellphones aren't Telecom any more? yeah... right.
When I read a website... on my cellphone I am tele-reading essentially.... It's way easier to argue that this is telecom (because it is) .. than against it.
You could also point out that computers are nothing more than a series of switches shrunk down massively and that the telecommunications network is still, in essence, nothing more than a massive switchboard for the routing of electric impulses that are then configured by a device at the other end to output analog information from them (photons form computer screens are still analog, sound from speakers is still analog).
They make the argument that information service and telecommunications service are mutually-exclusive, and services like DNS and Email put them clearly in information territory... but don't 411 and voicemail do the same thing on phone lines? That obviously doesn't release my phone company from any Title II responsibilities; I still expect equal access to various services whether my phone company has blessed them or not.
Of course, we would not even be having this discussion if the vast majority of consumer internet service wasn't held by a handful of companies that don't compete with one another; If the free market had anything to do with it, companies who don't meet these requirements would already be going out of business.
My mother worked on the last analog telephone central in Czech Republic, which was put out of commission before the end of last century. Since then every single phone call has been processed by a computer. I doubt there are any analog telephone centrals left anywhere, because at the time you had one floor of entire building replaced by a machine that fit in a broom closet.
So this argument could be applied to every single service that is actually regulated by title II and so is moot.
If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
A telecoms network that doesn't use significant amounts of computer processing sounds like a relic from the middle of last century. I guess the telecoms companies are hoping their legal opposition and judge don't notice that.
John_Chalisque
"Teh compuder ez defrent" is a pile of complete rubbish. People (sales, marketing, crimminal) have been pushing this crap for a long time. I remember early in the personal computer era (late 80's), one company was pushing "Computer cleaning kits" to a bank. Each kit came with a photocopied sheet explaining use of the kit, plus a box of j-cloths(tm) and a bottle of windex(tm). The box had a photocopied paper taped on it which said "Computer cleaning kit". They had sold several thousand of these to a bank for $125 each. The monitor screen isn't just a glass screen on a CRT, noooo, it's a *computer* screen. The cpu case isn't a sheet steel box, noooo, its a *computer* cpu case. Now we have ISP's claiming that bits roaming through the air and other media including wires (in a manner very similar to morse code has done since the early 1920's) isn't the same, since its *computer* data.
What good did FCC ever do to you? I remember buying a telephone line for $20 and having to pay almost extra $20 in FCC surcharges. FCC aint cheap. Let's ditch it while we can.
There is a definitions based line dividing "Telecommunications" and "Information Services".
We see certain for profit entities try to skip over that line once again to get the best of both worlds and none of the responsibilities.
It's like they're in a jumprope contest.
I agree. Best new troll since 2012.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
Internet access qualifies as information service, not a telecommunication service, because it involves computer processing.
... So does actual telephone service - which is *clearly* a telecommunication service.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
All the ISPs need to do is to convert their network into something that isn't IP and therefore the ruling won't apply to them.
The Portland case doesn't really say that. It basically says that information services use telecommunication services to develop and deliver the information services. It in essence says cable companies were telecommunication companies when they offer telecommunications services carrying information services over their infrastructure.
http://www.techlawjournal.com/...
The news brief you linked to was about the FCC using this to develop and roll out broadband because it now has authority that can restrict or override local franchising boards.
I don't think it is a matter of being able to switch between the two rather that the lines between the two are getting blurred. For instance, you use a telecommunications service to transmit an information service but when it is IP telephony (like Vonage), you are transmitting a telecommunications service over a telecommunications service as if it was an information service.
Honestly, force internet to be like a utility. dont let them be for profit and force them to spend at last 50% of all profits on infrastructure build out.
These asshole CEO's don't want to do the right thing, then it needs to be done at gunpoint with regulations and laws. Let the SWAT teams raid a CEO office for once instead of a poor persons house.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Clearly since the "On a computer" or "On a smartphone" has worked for decades now in the field of patenting something that has existed for decades. Why wouldn't they try to apply the same lame argument to themselves in an attempt to "on a computer" their way out of having to ya know actually do a thing.
Their lawyers picked an argument with a truck sized hole in it.
Consider telephone service.
Show me a phone call which does not use s/w to route and connect the call.
Show me a cell phone call that does not use s/w to process the speech on the way.
If classical Internet service is an information service because s/w is involved,
then telephone service is also an information service because it uses s/w.
If title 2 applies to anything, it applies to these ISP's.
Because "Computers" what?
Do you mind finishing your sentence?
I was afraid that the digital communications backbone that has been running our telephone system for 30 years had computers in it. PBX is Peanut Butter Xandwich, right?
For those of us who may be in a slightly good mood... You prompted me to go find this:
http://www.hobbyfarms.com/hobb...
Yes, it is an "interactive" See And Say. It didn't even make me lower my security or prompt me for anything. Nice...
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
The fox says 'Yiff.'
Because "computers". OK, OK,I'll meet you half way. I'll pay UP TO $50.
From the Communications Act of 1934:
(43) TELECOMMUNICATIONS.--The term "telecommunications" means the transmission,
between or among points specified by the user, of information of the user's choosing, without
change in the form or content of the information as sent and received.
Sounds familiar? Thus these are not telecommunications:
- Has communication between or among points NOT specified by the user (i.e. a switch, unknown routers)
- Sent information doesn't match received, for example added OSI layer headers needing "decoding" in the receiving end. That needs "microprocessors" and decoding is complex.
Anything NOT defined as "telecommunications" will be categorized to something else instead. It will be "higher layer service" instead but today we think TCP/IP is "common knowledge". The "common" of TCP/IP is fairly new concept. Time to renew your definitions, citizens of the U.S.?
For the ISP arguments and questions,
What has changed is the public's realization that Internet access is a basic necessity and that the ISP's are willing and able to hinder this.
“information service[s]” offer “a capability for generating, acquiring, storing, transforming, processing, retrieving, utilizing, or making available information via telecommunications,”
From these words, making available seems separate from telecommunucations even when telecommunications is necessary for the information to be available.
Yes, Internet access has become a basic necessity for all this now a good stuff to happen.
Yes, folks buy Internet access so this good stuff can happen.
but
No, all this good stuff is not Internet access.
An information service can control what information is available.
That is the reverse of what an ISP should do.
Even though they are a man in the middle in a good position to assert such control.
With regards to this DNS stuff,
A properly functioning DNS is a necessary directory service for the Internet. This service is often bundled with retail Internet access. ISP's have been known to use this position to provide an improper DNS where users are redirected to places they did not intend. Again, the reverse of what an ISP should do.
Savy users are able to use other DNS servers to eliminate the problem. This says that DNS is not a fundamental part of Internet Access. DNS is similar to POTS number lookup, but this does not make POTS an information service.
So have them do broadcasting and phone service without computers and then let's see how well that works.
So do you want to be forced to use non-computer based solutions for your Title II-regulated phone systems? Be careful what you wish for, $MEGACORPS.
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.