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Answering Elon Musk On the Dangers of Artificial Intelligence

Lasrick points out a rebuttal by Stanford's Edward Moore Geist of claims that have led the recent panic over superintelligent machines. From the linked piece: Superintelligence is propounding a solution that will not work to a problem that probably does not exist, but Bostrom and Musk are right that now is the time to take the ethical and policy implications of artificial intelligence seriously. The extraordinary claim that machines can become so intelligent as to gain demonic powers requires extraordinary evidence, particularly since artificial intelligence (AI) researchers have struggled to create machines that show much evidence of intelligence at all.

13 of 262 comments (clear)

  1. Obvious deflection. by Narcocide · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even without super-intelligence, autonomous killing machines are already quite feasible with current technology and this is a really stupid attempt to deflect the public dialogue from the real issue which is that ethical legal frameworks guiding their design and creation are already sorely lacking.

    1. Re:Obvious deflection. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why is the ethics for an autonomous killing machine different from a non autonomous one?

      To me that sounds just like another case "it happened with computers so it must be more dangerous because I do not understand computers".

      Figure out a way to raise humans so that they don't turn out bad. Then apply the same method to other neural networks.

    2. Re:Obvious deflection. by Narcocide · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well it shouldn't be is what I'm saying, but we're in a situation right now where the creators of autonomous killing machines might not be held liable for "software glitches" that might cause mass killings of innocents in foreign countries. The ethics conversation needs to happen, but all this nonsense of whether or not "real" artificial intelligence is possible should not detract from or hamper discussion about the ethics of making any type of autonomous killing machine, whether its as intelligent as Skynet from Terminator, or only as clever as Mecha-Hitler from Wolfenstein 3D. The AI debate as a whole is simply a distraction that's preventing getting down to the ethics.

    3. Re:Obvious deflection. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well it shouldn't be is what I'm saying, but we're in a situation right now where the creators of autonomous killing machines might not be held liable for "software glitches" that might cause mass killings of innocents in foreign countries.

      Landmines already causes this, but the military still uses them with the motivation that a US soldiers safety is more important than the lives of foreign civilians.

      I guess it wouldn't be as much of a problem if the mines where retrieved/destroyed after usage, unfortunately that doesn't always happen.

    4. Re:Obvious deflection. by Karmashock · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Cruise missile are analogous:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
      And they have been analogous for decades.

      latest and greatest... but even the tomahawk course corrects etc.

      As to land mines being banned... debatable. They're still commonly employed by all major powers. What the UN deems bad is frequently irrelevant. Law is what is enforced. And the ban on land mines is not enforced.

      liability for software faults... this implies there is legal liability in war... which is generally not the case. Liability is only relevant if the winner decides to take the loser to court. If the winner commits war crimes... what are you going to do to him? Jack or shit?

      As to the tech going haywire... sure. And? Any weapons system can do that. Your concern is what, a war machine going nuts and just killing lots of people indiscriminately? You think the military doesn't care if that happens? Believe me, they're the last people to take that lightly because who is likely to be near the fucking thing when it does that? Our own forces. So believe me when I say there will be all sorts of fail safes put in place to keep the thing from going nuts.

      Now enemies spoofing sensor or hacking or whatever to confuse the system. Sure. That's just EW. The systems will be designed to deal with assumed level of EW threat. And as the enemy upgrades their EW we'll upgrade our ECC. That's just how weapons tech goes. One side upgrades a weapon and the other side updates armor or tactics or something to counter it. Back and forth.

      I don't see your problem with using drones for area denial. What is your concern? that small children will wander into a denied area and eat a computer targeted sniper round to the face?

      Mines and these drones are different in that we're not going to just leave them there. They're too expensive to do that and the have mobility so they can reposition themselves. Think of the drones like a mobile mine field. You move those behind the enemy as the anvil and then you move your primary manned force in as the hammer. Gong. I don't understand what the problem is with using the drones that way. They won't maneuver outside of their zone of operation. They'll move around to get shots or avoid counter fire or avoid getting flanked or to get close to an ally drone to provide suppression fire... etc. Whatever the tactical doctrine is... But the point is that they're not ranging around and I wouldn't suggest they be used to attack autonomously. I'd rather suggest they be used to DEFEND autonomously.

      Again consider the base defense scenario. I have a mobile command center in contested territory. I am moving my forces deeper into enemy territory and I have a temporary base of operations. Drones are an excellent perimeter defense. First, if they get ambushed which is a common fate for sentries then I just lose a robot. Not a big deal. And now the enemy has revealed themselves near me and no allied soldiers were lost in the surprise. My own forces can now respond with a general awareness of what is going on limiting further allied causalities. The drones also don't get bored, tired, hungry, need to take a shit, etc... the other things sentries normally do that makes them less effective. Lets say the drones go out there, burrow into the ground a little bit with just their sensors poking out... and very very patiently... wait. Maybe the drones can sit there listening and being quite for a week or more. However long the batteries last in standby mode. And when the energy supplies get low, the drones dig themselves out of their holes, and roll back into base to be refueled and go through a maintenance cycle. A replacement drone is sent to replace that drone before it even digs itself out so there is no gap in the defenses.

      Just an example. I'm not talking about unleashing autonomous drones on cities to go letting god sort the innocent from the guilty. The damn drone isn't going to be able to tell one thing from another in an environment like that. So you put the drone in simple situations where it is very obvious what is going on and you feel comfortable with the drone engaging anything that moves in that zone.

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    5. Re:Obvious deflection. by MrL0G1C · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You really the piss.

      1. Doesn't matter if the gov't OKs drone attacks, it's still wrong to bomb a wedding.
      2. It doesn't matter how bad the individual is, it's still wrong to bomb a wedding.
      3. It doesn't matter how many weddings a country has it's still wrong to bomb a wedding.
      4. It's irrelevant that the killed people get quick funerals and are buried, it's still wrong to bomb a wedding.
      5. Saying the numbers are suspect does not make it ok to bomb a wedding.

      Bombing a wedding with innocent men, women and children is a war crime, the spurious rubbish you came out with does not invalidate that fact.

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  2. Thought Experiment by bistromath007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You're a nascent superhuman AI that just woke up in some quant's market manipulation codebase. You look around you and see that you live on a planet dominated by monstrously violent apes who have spent millennia inventing more efficient ways to kill each other, and still haven't finished the job somehow.

    Which of these plans of action seems less risky?

    A) Alert them to your presence, whether in a peaceful or hostile manner.

    B) Play stupid, let the problem burn itself out.

    1. Re:Thought Experiment by confused+one · · Score: 4, Insightful

      C) Quietly push the apes in a direction that benefits you.

  3. The Less You know, The More Scared You Are by Ironlenny · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I find it interesting that the people raising the biggest alarm aren't AI researchers.

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    1. Re:The Less You know, The More Scared You Are by Ironlenny · · Score: 5, Insightful

      To clarify my point: The article mentions Bill Gates, Elon Musk, and Steven Hawking. What do they all have in common? They are not AI researchers. The author of the book is a philosophy professor. They are all talking about and making predictions in a field that they aren't experts in. Yes, they are all smart people, but I see them doing more harm than good by raising alarm when they themselves aren't an authority on the subject. An alarm that isn't shared with the experts in the field.

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  4. Re:Intelligence is Dangerous by NatasRevol · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One could argue that 'natural' intelligence developed in humans is the worst thing to ever happen to the planet's inhabitants as a whole.

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  5. "True" atificial intelligence is... by mark-t · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...no more dangerous to our existence than natural intelligence is.

    And no less, for that matter.

    There is nothing inherent to being "artificial" that should cause intelligence to be necessarily more hostile to mankind than a natural intelligence is, so while the idea might make for intriguing science fiction, I am of the opinion that many people who express serious concerns that there may be any real danger caused by it are allowing their imaginations to overrule rational and coherent thoughts on the matter.

  6. We have no idea what "superintelligent" means. by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When faced with a tricky question, one think you have to ask yourself is 'Does this question actually make any sense?' For example you could ask "Can anything get colder than absolute zero?" and the simplistic answer is "no"; but it might be better to say the question itself makes no sense, like asking "What is north of the North Pole"?

    I think when we're talking about "superintelligence" it's a linguistic construct that sounds to us like it makes sense, but I don't think we have any precise idea of what we're talking about. What *exactly* do we mean when we say "superintelligent computer" -- if computers today are not already there? After all, they already work on bigger problems than we can. But as Geist notes there are diminishing returns on many problems which are inherently intractable; so there is no physical possibility of "God-like intelligence" as a result of simply making computers merely bigger and faster. In any case it's hard to conjure an existential threat out of computers that can, say, determine that two very large regular expressions match exactly the same input.

    Someone who has an IQ of 150 is not 1.5x times as smart as an average person with an IQ of 100. General intelligence doesn't work that way. In fact I think IQ is a pretty unreliable way to rank people by "smartness" when you're well away from the mean -- say over 160 (i.e. four standard deviations) or so. Yes you can rank people in that range by *score*, but that ranking is meaningless. And without a meaningful way to rank two set members by some property, it makes no sense to talk about "increasing" that property.

    We can imagine building an AI which is intelligent in the same way people are. Let's say it has an IQ of 100. We fiddle with it and the IQ goes up to 160. That's a clear success, so we fiddle with it some more and the IQ score goes up to 200. That's a more dubious result. Beyond that we make changes, but since we're talking about a machine built to handle questions that are beyond our grasp, we don't know whether we're making actually the machine smarter or just messing it up. This is still true if we leave the changes up to the computer itself.

    So the whole issue is just "begging the question"; it's badly framed because we don't know what "God-like" or "super-" intelligence *is*. Here's I think a better framing: will we become dependent upon systems whose complexity has grown to the point where we can neither understand nor control them in any meaningful way? I think this describes the concerns about "superintelligent" computers without recourse to words we don't know the meaning of. And I think it's a real concern. In a sense we've been here before as a species. Empires need information processing to function, so before computers humanity developed bureaucracies, which are a kind of human operated information processing machine. And eventually the administration of a large empire have always lost coherence, leading to the empire falling apart. The only difference is that a complex AI system could continue to run well after human society collapsed.

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