Ada Initiative Organization To End, But Its Work Will Continue

An anonymous reader writes: Today the Ada Initiative announced that the nonprofit will shut down in mid-October. Founded in 2011, the Ada Initiative is a nonprofit feminist organization created to help improve open source culture and build a more inviting, productive, safe environment for women. In this interview with Opensource.com, the co-founders look back at the organization's successes, and the work that still needs to be done.

Comments

Ada?

[QuietLagoon]

I thought this article was about Ada the programming language.

Re:Ada?

[will_die]

That organization died years ago.

Re:Ada?

[CastrTroy]

When I here ADA, I think of The Americans With Disabilities Act.

Re:Ada?

[Virtucon]

That's probably why this one died as well. Ada wasn't mainstream unless you were contracting for the Feds.

Re:Ada?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought this article was about Ada the programming language.

Same here, and a terrible flashback to my Ada class from college took place. To read the summary make me think, "oh...noooooooooowaaaahhhhhmakeitstopmakeitstopmakeitstop...oh, it's just an article about a feminist group...oh, good, good."

Re:Ada?

[mwvdlee]

Not being able to "hear" is a disability.

Re:Ada?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently their disability was marketing....

Re:Ada?

[mpthompson]

I did too. I was required to take semester of Ada in college circa 1985 to satisfy my degree requirements (probably an advanced data structures class) because it was the future. Never saw a line of Ada since. When I saw the headline I thought to myself, "Well, it's about bloody time."

Re:Ada?

[LWATCDR]

I thought the same thing.

Re:Ada?

[KGIII]

Well, it is about feminists... /s

One less

[Anonymous Coward]

Pffft! One less feminist organization to deal with.

Re:One less

[Anonymous Coward]

Not the OP, but why was this marked as Troll? He's right. Feminism seems to be beloved by certain circles of geeks and I cannot seem to grok why. Everyplace I have worked that had even the slightest amount of feminist leanings was a terrible place to work. The places that were largely patriarchal and where men could be men, curse, keep the lights off in the cube farm, hang up posters, smoke right outside the data room doors -- those are the best places to work.

I despise walking on eggshells around feminists, women in general, and homosexuals. It's become so PC the last few years. I really am thankful I have a the job I do. I have my own office, set my own work pace, in general have a lot of latitude from on high. And my coworkers are not PC. We can joke, laugh, have good banter with no one running to HR because someone got offended at a homo joke or making fun of this or that person.

I really do miss the halcyon days of my data center youth where anything went as long as you did your job.

Re:One less

[cyberchondriac]

I used to work as a bench tech for a large consumer electronics distributor, (now gone), there were about 30 of us all in one large room in the regional service center, working on stereos, VCRs, computers, etc.. you'd walk into work every morning, and every last one of us had Howard Stern playing on his bench stereo (we all had one for testing audio). You probably couldn't do that today in the new PC environment, even if HS went back to FM stations and had to follow the FCC rules. Plus, we were all basically 25- 35 year old white males, not enough diversity for today's workplace.

Re:One less

[TsuruchiBrian]

I think we can all agree that the world that the world that shitty people want reflects their personality. I think feminism and political correctness can often go overboard, but you just seem like a total shithead. As much as I hate the political correctness movement, if it gets rid of people like you (or just shuts you the fuck up), it's worth it.

Re:One less

[oh_my_080980980]

Troll....

Re: One less

[Anonymous Coward]

vagina detected!

No one knows who you are on the internet

[invictusvoyd]

Neo: How do you know that name? Trinity: I know a lot about you. Neo: Who are you? Trinity: My name is Trinity. Neo: Trinity. Thé Trinity? That cracked the IRS d-base? Trinity: That was a long time ago. Neo: Jesus. Trinity: What? Neo: I just thought, uhm, you were a girl. Trinity: Most guys do.

_______________________________
except if you are on facebook

Re:No one knows who you are on the internet

[AmiMoJo]

It's actually somewhat tricky to participate in some open source projects and remain anonymous. I use various pseudonyms on different sites, but recently someone realized who I was just from one. Turns out I did an only somewhat related interview with my real name years ago, and they track that through my personal web site and put it all together. No malicious, I just didn't try to mask my real identify hard enough.

Personally I don't think I should have to protect my real identity just to participate in various open source projects without fear of being treated differently due my gender or whatever. I've had racist discrimination and even abuse before due to my real name. I shouldn't have to hide, it should be a choice.

Re:No one knows who you are on the internet

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a male programmer and I've been a victim or racial discrimination myself . Discrimination is a human thing . Trying to eliminate it is futile and this comes from experience. The better thing to do is be a pseudonym . I mean in our world no one really cares if "trinity" is a girl or a guy. It just doesnâ(TM)t and shouldnâ(TM)t matter. Making all hue and cry about it gives it undue importance IMHO.

Re:No one knows who you are on the internet

[rossdee]

I always thought Trinity was Terrance Hill

Re:No one knows who you are on the internet

[Anonymous Coward]

And men get called idiots or faggots or whatever. Everyone gets harassed online. Somehow women think they only get harassed because their women. No, it's just the easiest attribute about you to target.

Re:No one knows who you are on the internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you feel like you have to stay anonymous because you make so many friends online?

Re:No one knows who you are on the internet

[Darinbob]

I've never been harrassed and told that I should not do computers, or been told that I should just get married and stay at home. Though the biggest example of that happening to women that I remember was before the internet, from a sexist professor who thought women shouldn't be in graduate school. Today when I see really egregious examples of over the top harrassment, it's inevitably against women. I just do not see men being harrassed on a personal level. Being called an idiot or faggot is nothing, that's not the same as being told you are worthless as a human being or being sent death threats. Just look at slashdot, there's nothing like the hint of feminism to bring out the haters in full force here.

Re:No one knows who you are on the internet

[Areyoukiddingme]

I just do not see men being harrassed on a personal level.

Somebody chanted "Nigga nigga nigga" at me out the window of an SUV last night while I was walking down the sidewalk. So there's that.

Re: No one knows who you are on the internet

[Anonymous Coward]

Completely ridiculous. The same trolls that will call someone stupid over a misplaced period are the ones postings racist and misogynistic things. They are trolls, it is what they do.

Go on any online game with voice chat and you hear a ton of 13 year olds calling people the foulest names and making fun of them however they can.

How is it that you think that insulting someone's gender is more egregious than mocking someone's level of intelligence or lack thereof?

Everyone gets attacked online by some people. But you know who gets attacked the most? The people that react to it, pure and simple. It is more entertaining for the trolls that way. Grow a thicker skin and it will resolve itself.

Re: No one knows who you are on the internet

[el_chicano]

How is it that you think that insulting someone's gender is more egregious than mocking someone's level of intelligence or lack thereof?

This is a stupid post, by extension you must be really stupid.

Oh yes, I can see how that is the same as you calling me 'spic' or a woman a 'bitch' or a Black person 'nigger'.

This confirms the fact that indeed you are really stupid.

Everyone gets attacked online by some people. But you know who gets attacked the most? The people that react to it, pure and simple. It is more entertaining for the trolls that way. Grow a thicker skin and it will resolve itself.

Nope, if I were to a grow a thicker skin so I can tolerate abuse from idiots (like the ones you are defending) the the abuse will still be there, so nothing gets resolved.

The only way this will resolve itself is if stupid people opened a book to try to learn how to act like civil human beings.

And oh yeah, I apologize for calling you stupid, the word I should have used was moron.

It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[Sangui5]

I've met Valarie personally; she's quite driven, smart, and focused. I can understand how running an organization like that can be draining, and it's sad yet understandable why they're shutting down.

I might suggest, though, on top of the other organizations listed as successors to support, the Anita Borg Institute.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[TWX]

So, "its work to continue," is a misnomer then. It's more accurate to state that other organizations with similar objectives will continue to pursue them even though this organization has bowed-out. It's not like the closing of this organization is directly causing its resources and specific pursuits to be applied post-mortem.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[Sangui5]

So, "its work to continue," is a misnomer then. It's more accurate to state that other organizations with similar objectives will continue to pursue them even though this organization has bowed-out. It's not like the closing of this organization is directly causing its resources and specific pursuits to be applied post-mortem.

You're correct: their donors and volunteers and supporters won't automatically transfer to another organization, and that this the most unfortunate part of the Ada Initiative shutting down. Hence, I feel compelled to suggest other, like-minded organizations. My personal favorite "best match" is the Anita Borg Institute, but ACM-W or SWE run close seconds (in my mind at least). Indeed, I met "Val Henson", and still have trouble remembering her name change to "Valarie Anita Aurora".... perhaps Val can chime in herself about which charity she would prefer people support, but I'd put money on ABI.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[gweihir]

I read some of Valerie's technical texts a while back. Driven, focuses, maybe, but smart, not so much. She even gets intermediary technical things wrong that are quite obvious to any precise thinker. Then she uses emotional appeal to cover up her lack of arguments and to convince the reader anyways. That is a real problem, as physical reality is quite unforgiving to those that do not understand it.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[serviscope_minor]

Interesting. Do you have any evidence you can point to to back this up, such as links to blog posts and technical articles by her where these mistakes appear?

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[gweihir]

On example is her writing on compare-by-hash. It has been a while and I am currently not finding the original text anymore, but at a quick glance this paper seems to be the same thing: http://valerieaurora.org/revie... I have no idea (and currently no time to check) whether the emotional arguments and faulty statistics I found in the text I read are also in the PDF.

Now, compare by hash is perfectly fine if you do it right. In that case the computer producing bit-errors and the like while you do the hashing for a comparison is more likely than getting a hash collision. Yet for some reason Valery seems to not understand that, or at least did not back then.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[serviscope_minor]

It's not a thrilling paper by any means, but it doesn't appear to be incorrect at a first glance. Seh obviously doesn't like compare by hash, and has some good points against it, which mostly centre around cryptographic hashes becoming obsolete, sometimes rather quickly. There's also the percfectly good point that naievely comparing probabilities isn't a very good idea---that's true, and is as far as I see why cryptographic hashes, not CRCs are used.

There's a bit of philosophical noodling about error rates and etc, but again not anything I'd class as actually wrong. I think the conclusion is a bit overblown.

It's a distinctly meh paper (very meh, to be honest), but I'd hate to be judged on my worst papers (thankfully some of them were rejected---along with some good ones).

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[TsuruchiBrian]

Now, compare by hash is perfectly fine if you do it right. In that case the computer producing bit-errors and the like while you do the hashing for a comparison is more likely than getting a hash collision. Yet for some reason Valery seems to not understand that, or at least did not back then.

It seems like she does understand this, but is saying that the comparison of collision rates to hardware failures is not appropriate.

On page 4 she says:

In other words, VAL-1 is SHA-1 except that the first two inputs map to the same output. This function has an almost identical probability of collision as SHA-1, but it is completely unsuitable for use in compare-by-hash. The point of this example is not that bad hash functions will result in errors, but that we can’t directly compare the probability of a hash collision with the probability of a hardware error. If we could, VAL-1 and SHA-1 would be equally good candidates for compare-by-hash. The relation-ship between the probability of a hash collision and the probability of a hardware error must be more complicated than a straightforward comparison can reveal.

I have never heard of Val Henson before just right now, so I don't have any dog in this fight, but it seems like your characterization of what she doesn't understand is over-simplified.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[gweihir]

It seems like she does understand this, but is saying that the comparison of collision rates to hardware failures is not appropriate.

That is one of the criticisms I have, because the comparison is appropriate. You do need to understand how to do it right, but she does not. Her explanation is bogus. She does not understand the statistics. Given that she was working as a file-system developer at that time, this is not acceptable and clearly shows that she has no understanding of her own limits.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[gweihir]

You do not write a "meh" paper on an important design aspect in an area you are currently working if you are smart. Instead you try to understand the subject better and then write a good paper. As to wrong, it needs a bit more than a first glance and it needs some understanding of the crypto and computer hardware involved. The paper, as it is, shows "ego". It does not show "smart", but the absence of it. It is also not the only indicator of that problem in her person. This being /. I am not going to do more research for you.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[serviscope_minor]

You do not write a "meh" paper on an important design aspect in an area you are currently working if you are smart.

Yeah you do. I used to be in academia. Everyone I know had written papers they weren't especially proud of in their area. Many (most?) were caused by looming conference deadlines and pushing in something a bit late and a bit rushed. I know I've done it.

As to wrong, it needs a bit more than a first glance and it needs some understanding of the crypto and computer hardware involved.

But you haven't said what's wrong with it. PErhaps I haven't spotted it because I disagree with your conclusions of what is "wrong".

The paper, as it is, shows "ego".

It's a perfectly normal if rather unremarkable paper. I don't get "ego" from it.

It does not show "smart", but the absence of it.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Sure it does't show smart, but it also doesn't have any indications to the contrary. I'm an author on some really quite mediocre papers which got kinda creamed when they were presented. I'm not proud of those. I'm also author on at least one paper where I badly reinvented an established technique---it's even in Num-Rec---for part of the paper, but wasn't technically unsound. Though I've come to feel that one of the other parts was kinda dubious even if it worked and there's better ways of doing it. I'm also author on some papers I am very proud of.

My point: everyone who writes papers writes some mediocre ones.

This being /. I am not going to do more research for you.

Of course. This is slashdot. You make a wild claim, post some non evidence then feel smug and superior when I don't go down the rabbit hole trying to do "research" to back up a point that you brought up and I don't really care either way about.

At this stage, I'm inclined to feel you're full of it because your response to a request for evidence if for me to find it for you. Naturally if I fail you will claim it's because I haven't put in enough work.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[gweihir]

Seriously, this is an intermediate subject in crypto and filesystem design. I can only give you hints. If you really want to understand this, some study on your part is required.

For example, one thing you do to prevent crafted collisions when you do not control the input to a hashing-scheme is to add a "salt" that is not accessible to the attacker. This makes even broken crypto hashes exceptionally resistant against crafted collisions. It is a well-known technique and also used in conventional hash-tables with non-cryptographic hash-functions to prevent algorithmic complexity attacks. As to random collisions, they do not happen in practice even with weaker crypto-hashes, as long as the hash-length is tailored to the maximum filesystem size.

Some level of understanding is rightfully required to make claims in this space. I do not see that level in Valery, and hence I call here "not so smart". If you take exception with that, come right out with it and do not hide behind technicalities.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[Anonymous Coward]

I've met Valarie personally; she's quite driven, smart, and focused.

Valerie Henson is a nutjob, just do a google on her, one of those self destructive people who you don't want on your site ..

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[TsuruchiBrian]

She gives reasons as to why the comparison is not appropriate. Are these reasons bad? Which ones are bad, and why are they bad?

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[serviscope_minor]

Well it's a pity that only filesystem might use compare by hash and that she's unaware of salting hashes. Oh wait neither of those is true and in fact the paper you gave mentions salting but not filesystems. You know git uses compare by hash, right? How world you keep salt secret with git? And git is not the only system out there.

Frankly, I think the claims are a bit over blown / the paper is not widely applicable, but that still doesn't make it anything like as wrong as you appear to believe. It's still just a mediocre paper and you can't glean much from that for reasons I've already elucidated and you haven't rebutted.

Look, I don't know this Valerie person from Adam, and I don't care if she's competent or not, but given that you are making demonstrably false claims about the evidence you provided, I'm now firmly of the belief that you're for some reason emotionally invested in proving her wrong. That's kinda weird.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[Midnight_Falcon]

Does she have good judgment? Looking at the picture of her on Ada Intiative's site, she seems to have dyed her hair pink.

Is that a good message to send to would-be developers/technologists? Dye your hair pink, go into interviews, watch as your shown the door for clearly caring more about being a hipster than having a good job.

Seriously, there are very few serious professional technologists who dye their hair flamboyant colors, regardless of gender.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[Raenex]

Looking at the picture of her on Ada Intiative's site, she seems to have dyed her hair pink. [..] caring more about being a hipster than having a good job

This is a special class of hipster, the modern SJW feminist. Explained in a nutshell:

https://img.4plebs.org/boards/...

These people don't have jobs in the routine, mundane, get business done sense. It's meta bullshit. If you hire somebody like that, you're company is in for a world of hurt.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[el_chicano]

Does she have good judgment? Looking at the picture of her on Ada Intiative's site, she seems to have dyed her hair pink.

Is that a good message to send to would-be developers/technologists? Dye your hair pink, go into interviews, watch as your shown the door for clearly caring more about being a hipster than having a good job.

So you are cool with her being rejected for how she looks on the surface?

I personally don't know why she did it but maybe she is trying to make a point about Hispanics like me being rejected for having brown skin or African Americans being rejected for having black skin.

But to tell you the truth I would rather have a woman with pink hair than some of the long-haired, tattooed biker looking men I have had the unfortunate "pleasure" of working with.

At least the women shower and wash their hair regularly which I can't say all men in IT do.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[AmiMoJo]

How world you keep salt secret with git?

The salt isn't supposed to be secret. That's now how it works to increase difficulty of reversing a hash.

I'm thinking that your analysis may be flawed if you don't grasp the basics.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[el_chicano]

This is a special class of hipster, the modern SJW feminist...

LOL, as soon as you use bullshit flamebait words like "SJW" normal people shake their heads and say "What an idiot!"

If you hire somebody like that, you're [sic] company is in for a world of hurt.

Yes, if "hurt" means your company will have to start hiring Hispanics and Blacks instead of Whites whose qualifications are dubious at best.

You must be a pretty sad loser, an under-qualifed White person in IT scared of all the qualified non-Whites trying to take your job away from you. Either that your small penis makes you so insecure that you feel you have to lash out at women and minorities trying to fix social issues.

But what the hey, as long as you are a White man in IT you might as well do like King Canute and try to keep the tide from coming in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Canute_and_the_waves

Like that is going to work. It sure kept a Black man out of the White House and it will sure keep a woman from being elected President next year.

To tell you the truth I really feel sorry for ass-backward White people like you. But there is hope for you yet, you can always move to some shit-hole state like Alabama or Idaho where at least there are other White idiots who agree with you!

P.S. I am a Chicano whose first language was Spanish, yet I seem to speak English better than you do: you're company == you are company.

Maybe instead of railing against "SJWs" you should open a book sometime and learn how to speak your ONE language properly so people like me who speak TWO languages well won't embarrass you in public.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[KGIII]

I did not look at the picture but I have noticed a trend. It is usually the ugly ones (of either gender) that make themselves gaudy with coloring, makeup, and piercings. I am not entirely sure why that is. They have only made themselves into a gaudy hephalump and drawn the attention that they claim they do not want. This is, obviously, not all of them - just the majority of those I have been exposed to. Either you can code or you can not. If you can not then you do not belong in the field. A purple panda suit does not make you more productive - it makes you a distraction.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[Raenex]

LOL, as soon as you use bullshit flamebait words like "SJW" normal people shake their heads and say "What an idiot!"

You mean that's what you, as an SJW, think normal people think.

Yes, if "hurt" means your company will have to start hiring Hispanics and Blacks instead of Whites whose qualifications are dubious at best.

I mean this person will not get any work done but instead will cause distractions and drama in your company.

You must be a pretty sad loser, an under-qualifed White person in IT scared of all the qualified non-Whites trying to take your job away from you. Either that your small penis makes you so insecure that you feel you have to lash out at women and minorities trying to fix social issues.

I've got no problems with qualified, non-white or non-males working in the tech industry. I've worked with plenty of them. I'm not under-qualified and afraid of somebody taking my job. And my dick size is just fine, thanks.

No, my problem is with hypersensitive, melodramatic people who want the world to conform to their idea of "justice".

Like that is going to work. It sure kept a Black man out of the White House and it will sure keep a woman from being elected President next year.

Look how silly you are, assuming that because I think SJWs are stupid that I'm a raging racist and sexist that wants to keep black people and women out of the Presidency. I'm glad Obama won, as I didn't like Romney, and I thought he had some good points. I'm not a fan of Hillary, though, and not because she's a woman, but because she's a vapid politician who doesn't stand for anything except for being in power. I'd vote for her if Trump was the alternative, though.

P.S. I am a Chicano whose first language was Spanish, yet I seem to speak English better than you do: you're company == you are company.

Though apparently you don't know the difference between speaking and typing, and think making a common mistake is somehow noteworthy.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[serviscope_minor]

The salt isn't supposed to be secret. That's now how it works to increase difficulty of reversing a hash.

Salt surves multiple different purposes.

One is to essentilly make your hashing function effectively unique. It doesn't matter if it is known in advance, because it breaks pre-computed tables of hashes, such as rainbow tables.

The other purpose is to guard against intentional collsisions. A secret salt is required for that. Take the wor'd simplest and stupidest hash: sum up all the bytes in a file modulo 256. If I give you a hash, you can trivially create a file which will cause a collision. If insist that I'm going to add on a secret salt after you create the file, the only way for you to create a collision is to brute force it.

Secret salts of that sort are used to prevent algorithmic complexity attacks against fast non crytographic hashes such as are used in hash tables. It's covered here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

I really don't see how my analysis can be flawed because I was replying to the grandparent and that is literally exactly what he's talking about. From the grand parent:

For example, one thing you do to prevent crafted collisions when you do not control the input to a hashing-scheme is to add a "salt" that is not accessible to the attacker. This makes even broken crypto hashes exceptionally resistant against crafted collisions.

In the case of compare by hash, a public salt does not help protect against collisions.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[david_thornley]

However, there are a lot of perjorative words that people associate with a lack of thought. If you come up with evidence that somebody is a showoff without the requisite skills, that can be convincing (I haven't noticed that one group is more prone to showoffs than others, but they do tend to use different tactics). It's far easier to call her an SJW or feminazi, which is why it's generally unconvincing. I could come up with a disparaging name to call people that I think are like you, but that wouldn't be useful either.

Do not get yourself into a position where slogans take the place of thought and accusations the place of evidence.

Re:It's unfortunate they have to shut down

[Midnight_Falcon]

Sorry, but your argument is ridiculous and does something to discredit your opinions in general here, because it is so illogical.

So you are cool with her being rejected for how she looks on the surface?

This is a false reduction of my argument into something that aligns it with racism/feminism etc, a very cheap example of "pulling the card;" but your argument is absurd.

"How she looks on the surface" does not mean her race, sexual orientation, gender or anything that is not her choosing. However, she chose to go into the bathroom, get out bleach, go and dye her hair pink. This is done as a statement, expressing her style; and is completely her choice. Would you hire someone who carved a swastika into their forehead or had a nice SS tattoo on their neck? Would that be rejecting them by how they look on the surface, or ist hat a choice they've made to send a bold statement with their appearance?

If not, then what's the difference between that and not hiring someone with pink hair because you think they are sending a statement that says "I'm independent/insubordinate and don't care what others think?"

Good Riddance!

[Anonymous Coward]

We don't need these repressive "feminists" who feel triggered by the idea of women being in any way conceived of having sexuality and think that talking about this at a tech conference to nerdy under-sexed MEN would be an invite to rape and other "inappropriate behavior". According to Ada, the only appropriate sexual dialogue between tech workers is NONE AT ALL.
 

Re:Good Riddance!

[Darinbob]

You seriously think seuxal dialogue between coworkers is appropriate? What are you, in a startup or something? There's no serious corporate environment that would condone that.

"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF does that mean?

The dangerous part of coding is getting carpal tunnel or maybe a paper cut while looking up something in dead-tree form. No one likes a critical review of their code, but that's a part of the job. Don't get worked up over it. Also, unless it was the topic of the presentation, who would put porn in a presentation? They must be exaggerating.

Re:"save environment for women"

[OhPlz]

Seems to me that some of these groups are the ones doing the harassment. Accusing men of this type of activity just because they're men is wrong.

Re:"save environment for women"

[William Baric]

You are the one who obviously don't have a clue.

Here's an example of what they say : "Pornography in slides was a regular feature at many conferences in these areas, as were physical and sexual assault."

First, even if there was "pornography" in slides, which is obviously not the case, it is not harassment. I will agree most women use their body to seduce and to get what they want. I will agree an image of a sexy woman shows they are not that sexy themselves by comparison. I will agree showing images of sexy women will diminish their ability to seduce. But that's not harassment! I guess they just have to do better work if they want a promotion instead of relying on seduction.

Second, about physical and sexual assault : B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T.

I'm tired of feminist lies. So how about feminism teach women to not be psychotic instead of asking for a "safe environment"? How about they teach women to stop feeling threatened by pretty much everything?

You know who's harassing the most with the constant demands and nagging? Feminists. So yeah, they have to be called out and dealt with.

Re:"save environment for women"

[Theaetetus]

Seems to me that some of these groups are the ones doing the harassment. Accusing men of this type of activity just because they're men

has literally never happened.

FTFY.

Re:"save environment for women"

[AmiMoJo]

Wow. Just wow.

You are saying that calling for a workplace free from harassment and threats is actually itself harassment of men. Because men must be free to harass...

I'm a man and I don't need to validate myself by harassing people, and I don't feel harassed or oppressed when people suggest I shouldn't abuse women. If you do, then there is something seriously wrong with you.

The MRAs are really screwing up Slashdot. +5 insightful for this crap?

Re:"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

Read his comment you dyslexic fool.

Re:"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

Does that invalidate the "is wrong" part in any way?

Re:"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol, are you a woman? Because if so you have no right to comment on the experiences of men.

I get accused of being an MRA all the time just because I leave posts of Slashdot commenting on the lunacy of this latest SJW fad. You don't think that sort of behavior never extends to accusations of harassment? Especially now that harassment includes the most banal of communications. I harass now literally every time a look at a woman (its now called glaring). The active collection of photons on my retina, apparently is incredibly intimidating to the woman-children out there.

Re:"save environment for women"

[gweihir]

Add neck- and back-problems to that. But getting your work criticized in clear language? Being able to take that is called "professionalism". And nobody will put porn into a presentation, unless it was on-topic. It is more likely that these women cannot stand that about 100% of men like porn (and not so few women), and they want to fight that preemptively.

Re:"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Just wow.

Omigod it's 2015. Wow just wow, I can't even.

On a more serious note:

You are saying that calling for a workplace free from harassment and threats is actually itself harassment of men.

Where the fuck does he say that? There are literally two sentences in the post you're replying to and neither of them support your conclusion.

Re:"save environment for women"

[gweihir]

Also note that getting one's work criticized is neither "threats" nor "harassment". Some women apparently do not understand that.

Re:"save environment for women"

[tomhath]

Please read the US federal government's definition of harassment and explain how porn doesn't meet the definition.

Offensive conduct may include, but is not limited to, offensive jokes, slurs, epithets or name calling, physical assaults or threats, intimidation, ridicule or mockery, insults or put-downs, offensive objects or pictures, and interference with work performance.

Re:"save environment for women"

[geminidomino]

You are saying that calling for a workplace free from harassment and threats is actually itself harassment of men. Because men must be free to harass...

For some exceedingly ridiculous values of "harassment" and "threats" that, somehow, extend to being able to be the victim of these things in spite of being neither a participant nor the target in said "threatening/harassing" behavior, and even being completely ignored is just another form of "harassment by exclusion" or some stupidity.

I'm a man

Clearly a matter of some debate.

Re:"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

I will agree most women use their body to seduce and to get what they want. I will agree an image of a sexy woman shows they are not that sexy themselves by comparison. I will agree showing images of sexy women will diminish their ability to seduce. But that's not harassment! I guess they just have to do better work if they want a promotion instead of relying on seduction.

Hey, did you, uh... did you take your medication today? Maybe want to up the dose a notch. That's close to the most appalling collection of delusions that I've ever heard someone express.

Re:"save environment for women"

[William Baric]

The definition of the US federal government for harassment is plain stupidity which was the result of feminist lobbying. This definition is just wrong. Please think for a second.

And anyway your point is moot since there is no "pornography" in slides in conferences. I don't know if saying this is just another deliberate lie from feminists in order to play the victims or the result of severe psychosis, but to be honest I don't care. Feminism is now, at best, a farce.

Re:"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

typos happen.

Still, it's a case of being a professional and professionals still at times get into arguments. They even call each other fucking idiots when the other is behaving that way or did something really stupid. IMHO, it's not harassment.

Re:"save environment for women"

[serviscope_minor]

Clearly a matter of some debate.

Ah I see you are using insults. It's kind of amusingly on topic that you can believe you can insult him by implying he's like a woman.

The assumption that it's an insult is predicated on him operates with the sexist position that women are worse then men, as that is the only way it could possibly be construed as an insult.

Given who you're trying to insult and the contents of his posts, I think you may find that your assumption is faulty and so implying that he might be female or female-like is therefore not an effective insult.

To use a tech analogy, it would be like trying to insult someone by calling them a "clojure programmer". Such an attempt at an insult would merely be baffling to most people. It would also give illuminating but not flattering insight into the opinions of the person attempting to use the insult.

Re:"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Just wow.

You are saying that calling for a workplace free from harassment and threats is actually itself harassment of men. Because men must be free to harass...

I'm a man and I don't need to validate myself by harassing people, and I don't feel harassed or oppressed when people suggest I shouldn't abuse women. If you do, then there is something seriously wrong with you.

The MRAs are really screwing up Slashdot. +5 insightful for this crap?

Men are not permitted to express themselves in ways natural for their gender as the product of millions of years of evolution.
Women are permitted to express themselves in ways natural for their gender as the product of millions of years of evolution.

Do I have you right here? If so, kindly go to hell.

Re:"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't feel harassed or oppressed when people suggest I shouldn't abuse women.

Similarly, black people shouldn't feel harassed or oppressed when people constantly remind them that they shouldn't steal things.

Re:"save environment for women"

[AmiMoJo]

Straw man argument. You are arguing that attempts to prevent harassment should be resisted because some imaginary foe of the MRA might try to abuse it.

How do I know you are an MRA? You question my manhood. I'm not afraid of having my manhood challenged though. I don't define myself by ridiculous, toxic notions of what a man is. I'm not constantly worried about doing or saying something that might seem less than alpha male.

Re:"save environment for women"

[Darinbob]

Wow, they let people out of the cave before they finish evolving. Pornographic images are demeaning and insulting; keep them to yourself and in private please. If a woman does not like to see a "sexy" image does not mean the woman does not find herself sexy; instead that is you projecting your one dimensional view on women that they are always comparing themselves to each other. Thinking that the goal of women is to seduce bottom feeders as a tech conference is just amazingly stupid; I understand that the rush of testosterone you got in puberty has yet to wear off the point where you can view females as human beings which is why thinking twice before speaking is a helpful tool.

Seriously, do you think this way about the females in your life? Such as your mother or grandmother?

The biggest problem at the tech conferences is the infantile behavior that most well adjusted people leave behind in junior high school. Drawing pictures of penises during a presentation or showing sexy pictures? That's seriously maladjusted and amazingly unprofessional.

Re:"save environment for women"

[Darinbob]

There have been rude images in tech conferences which got plenty of press. Maybe not your definition of 'porn', but pictures of scantily clad women or drawings of penises goes beyond the level lf profesionallism one would like to see. There are people so messed up that they do actually watch porn at work.

Re:"save environment for women"

[goose-incarnated]

I'm a man and I don't need to validate myself by harassing people, and I don't feel harassed or oppressed when people suggest I shouldn't abuse women.

Then you're an idiot. If someone were to tell me to stop abusing women even though I am not actually doing so I get annoyed by their implication that I am abusing women. Telling a whole class of people "you should abusing women" is very very inappropriate. You are the one that's going around offending people with vague and unsubstantiated allegations about their behaviour, and then you scream oppression when they tell you (rightly) to fuck off.

Re:"save environment for women"

[goose-incarnated]

I don't feel harassed or oppressed when people suggest I shouldn't abuse women.

An AC below said it best: By the very same logic you should also believe that black people should not feel harassed when other races suggest that black people should just stop thieving?

Go on - give us an answer - should black people feel harassed when they are told repeatedly that they should stop being thieves.

Re:"save environment for women"

[geminidomino]

Ah I see you are using insults. It's kind of amusingly on topic that you can believe you can insult him by implying he's like a woman.

How very gender-binary of you. It probably never even occurred to you that the same words could be used as an implication that he is acting/reasoning/behaving like a child.

Re:"save environment for women"

[geminidomino]

Straw man argument. You are arguing that attempts to prevent harassment should be resisted because some imaginary foe of the MRA might try to abuse it.

No, I question the definition of what you claim to be trying to prevent as "harassment" and "threats".

How do I know you are an MRA? You question my manhood

See my response to sibling post.

Re:"save environment for women"

[serviscope_minor]

It probably never even occurred to you that the same words could be used as an implication that he is acting/reasoning/behaving like a child.

We both know what you meant. You at least had the good grace not to restospectively claim you meant it. Fact is, he isn't acting or reasoning like a child (seriously what children talk about harassment), and that's not what you were implying.

You used bad insult and it backfired. Own it.

Re:"save environment for women"

[geminidomino]

So not only do you reserve the right to redefine words, but you also claim authority to dictate what's in other people's minds? Shit, and people say I'm arrogant.

Fact is, he isn't acting or reasoning like a child (seriously what children talk about harassment), and that's not what you were implying.

Fact is, he is. Treating hearing/seeing/knowing something that you don't as being "victimized" is abrogating the personal responsibility to deal with the world around oneself, and expecting others to change it to suit instead. That is an extremely childish outlook, and part of reaching adulthood is leaving it behind.

You just don't like the fact that you got busted going against your own ideological dogma.

Re:"save environment for women"

[serviscope_minor]

So not only do you reserve the right to redefine words, but you also claim authority to dictate what's in other people's minds?

I don't need to claim it. You had two opportunities to actually say such a thing and you failed to do so. The fact that you've done it now, after I called you on it twice is a strong indication that you're simply a weasel who came up with a poor insult and can't accept it.

Fact is, he is.

No he isn't, unless you make stuff up. Which if course youare, because you didn't mean he's being childish, he isn't and so you're having to torture the definition of "childish" in a vain and amusing attempt to "prove" me wrong.

Treating hearing/seeing/knowing something that you don't as being "victimized" is abrogating the personal responsibility to deal with the world around oneself, and expecting others to change it to suit instead.

Apart from the massive parse error in that line, where precisely is he claiming he's being victimised and disowning personal responsibility? A clue: he's not.

So sure if you make up all sorts of wild claims, you can shoe-horn in a definition of childish. The reason it fits so poorly and requires such mental contortions is that as we both know, that's not what you meant in the first place.

Re:"save environment for women"

[AmiMoJo]

How did you read "shouldn't" and in your mind understand "should stop"? If I say "people shouldn't steal" do you understand that yo mean "you should stop stealing"?

Your rage has literally made you blind, unable to comprehend what I wrote.

Re:"save environment for women"

[AmiMoJo]

"Some women" = straw man argument.

Re:"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a man

Stop lying.

Re:"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

Found the other woman!

Re:"save environment for women"

[KGIII]

A lady in a bikini is not pornography. A lady with a carrot in her ass is pornography. Cite one instance where someone regularly and deliberately put pornography into a company slide and kept their job. Just one instance will do.

I believe in equal rights - not special rights. I think women should get the same pay for the same work. I think they should be offered the same promotions based on the same skillset. Here is the kicker... I think they should have the same obligations that all people have - regardless of gender or gender identification. This is not complicated stuff.

If there were rape in the workplace, as is alleged, then it should be reported and there is not one company that allows a rapist to keep working with their victim so you do not get to claim it is a regular thing or even anything beyond a statistical anomaly IF it ever happened. It is not like we are grabbing someone from the steno pool and yanking them into the server room to have our way with them against their wishes. So yes, bring out those in-work rape statistics. Let's see them and let's see them with company responses included.

I will wait patiently for you to provide those numbers.

I know, I am bad for wanting equality. Damn...

Re:"save environment for women"

[Anonymous Coward]

"Some women" = straw man argument.

Yup, that's what I say every time *some women* talk about how *some women* get harassed by *some* people (who are not necessary men) as if it indicates anything about sexism. They're all strawmen.

Re:"save environment for women"

[goose-incarnated]

How did you read "shouldn't" and in your mind understand "should stop"? If I say "people shouldn't steal" do you understand that yo mean "you should stop stealing"?

Your rage has literally made you blind, unable to comprehend what I wrote.

You shouldn't project your emotionally charged state onto others.

(See how the word "shouldn't" works?)

Re:"save environment for women"

[david_thornley]

What happens to the woman who reports the rape? The natural thing for the company to do is to try to hush it up, and if she pushes the case accuse her of slander and fire her. The chances of getting any justice done in a case like this are pretty low, as long as the rape doesn't actually leave evidence of violence. There are cases of sexual harassment where a woman is told that she'll put out if she wants to keep her job or get a promotion (there's also cases where the woman volunteers sexual favors for employment, so it's really hard to prove). I'm comfortable in calling sex coerced by threats rape, myself. (And, yes, this is known to happen with female bosses and male employees, although I suspect it's less common.)

So, neither of us knows how much this happens, and neither of us knows how to find out how much this happens.

Re:"save environment for women"

[gweihir]

You confuse indicator and proof.

Re:"save environment for women"

[gweihir]

Exactly my point. Thank you.

Re:"save environment for women"

[KGIII]

I do not see any numbers but I do see a suspecting about men type of comment. I am glad I am retired. You all are nuts. As a business owner, and a fairly good sized place with offices in five locations, I'd have fired people from both ends of the spectrum. I'd have also fired anyone accused of sexual wrongdoing - immediately.

Re:"save environment for women"

[david_thornley]

Which means that either there was no such wrongdoing, or the perpetrators were able to keep it from you. I approve of your attitude, but it's not universal.

What I am claiming is that such harassment does occur to some extent, and there's enough anecdotal evidence around to verify that. I am also claiming that there is no way, with available information, to tell what the actual numbers are. You're asking for data which we don't have, and it isn't clear how to get it.

Unfortunately, how much of a problem there is going to be speculation for a long time to come.

Re:"save environment for women"

[KGIII]

So then, for clarity, what are you advocating as a solution? My advocacy would be simply education via public awareness that it may be a problem - done. I would advocate that folks be vigilant which is also done. So, what more is there to accomplish?

I do not advocate knee jerks responses and hysteria (no sexism intended but it is the best word for the job). Their job is done. They can be quiet now and see what the effect is.

See the GitHub response for something that I consider to be of no benefit but I do respect their right to do as they see fit with their property. I just see it as silly, pandering, and being done for the wrong reasons - publicity. It is certainly not about harm.

This is difficult to put into words but...

Work should be a safe place for everyone. The internet should not be a safe place, for anyone. The internet is where we have freedoms and while I do not abuse those freedoms I respect the rights of others to be abusive. If I want to be a sexist prick then the internet is the right place to do it. Where internet is not equal to work, so to speak. This is an outlet for speech. Censorship, legal and perhaps acceptable, should be left to places where it is applicable. I do not expect to be allowed free speech at a place of employment, for example. I do expect to be able to have a modicum of free speech online and, frankly, have the right to create a space online where such is allowed. It may be a fallacy but it may not be to assume that this trend is going to reduce those free speech outlets in the name of safety. I do not want the internet going that direction no matter how deplorable I may think people are.

I am not sure that makes much sense. Sure, they can censor and do what they want on their own property like Reddit has done. I do not have to like it. I also see it as a trend and I do not like where it is headed. I have no desire to be sexist or racist. I do respect other people's rights to be asshats.

Wow... There is much more to it but, I had not really thought about this - it is insaney difficult to verbalize clearly. That too is likely a problem. Communication is important.

Re:"save environment for women"

[KGIII]

Also, I should clarify something from above - a couple of posts up. I would fire someone who was reasonably accused, as in probably committed the offense. I would not blindly fire someone. If there were reasonable doubts then I would suggest a legal course of action and consult my legal team. It is a place of employment, not a court room.

If the accuser made multiple complaints and there were reasons to suspect that the accusation was not true then, again, I would consult legal and fire them if appropriate. I do not like false accusations - I consider those worse than offenses to be honest.

The offender is morally bankrupt and a false accuser is morally bankrupt and actively trying to harm other people by being dishonest. Honesty is something I am pretty big on. Again, some of these concepts are not easy for me to verbalize. I am not an author and I tend to write novellas already. I would tolerate no abuse - ever. I would tolerate no false accusations - ever, and I would be disgusted on top of it.

False accusations happen. They happen way too often to believe that justice is always served. There are many people who are being freed due to the appeals courts finally working. DNA evidence is also setting people free. Those people should never have been in prison in the first place. The same is true for things that do not see a courtroom.

Hmm... It really is difficult to verbalize. I think that, perhaps, I need to sit down and write myself an essay or two. That will help me get the words down in print and will help me verbalize the in the future. My apologies for the clunky ideas. They are more refined but my own failings mean that I am having difficulty verbalizing them.

Oh, Christ, here we go...

[LaurenCates]

FTFA: "Check back for our Diversity in Open Source series, which starts August 10."

Yes, of fucking course, because the product takes second place to having enough women and minorities that are safe from microaggressions working on it.

I admit that I respond to a lot of this stuff, and I probably should back off, but the number one reason why I do is because I feel I have to offer a counter-message to stuff like this. As much as I don't want to talk about it anymore, I feel like the more of the stuff like this that gets posted, the more it gets accepted as "truth" that women are somehow under attack by "the boys club".

For every woman that claims there's some inherent "truth" that conferences need "anti-harassment policies" and "safe spaces", I'd like to be a woman that says there are plenty of women with experiences that indicate the problem isn't as bad as they say it is.

(And, no, your feminist blog is not proof that it is. Any and all feminist blogs offering such "proof" will be roundly ignored.)

Yes, you have assholes. You have them everywhere. You can't keep them out of your arena.

But I go to Code Camps and other technical events fairly regularly. And I've never once got the sense that I (or any of the other women in the room) have been hounded, or hounded out or treated with derision.

Maybe the problem is because that one asshole draws so much attention to him- (and indeed, her-) self, we create archetypes based on those personalities which we then elevate into "the norm", and then we forget all the nice, normal people around us that aren't being assholes to us. And believe me, there are far fewer assholes than there are decent people out there.

If you can't find any decent people around you, and you're calling everyone an asshole, you might want to grab some toilet paper and give yourself a good once-over. Or as we used to say when we were kids: "She who smelt it, dealt it."

Maybe, then, the solution is to stop treating sexism as if it's a constant problem for everyone at all times. Maybe it's time to start understanding that what's creating a hostile work environment in many places is the assumption that it's going to be hostile from the jump. Maybe it's time to start acknowledging that when you have an organization that's a hammer, perhaps you've developed a myopia that tells you everything around you looks like a nail.

Men don't need to be taught not to rape (or for the purposes of this discussion, harass).
Women need to toughen up and realize that no space is ever completely "safe", and sometimes you just have to deal with it.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[phaana]

Please consider this me raising my glass to you, a fellow engineer/techie/coder/geek (whatever you may be) irrespective of your gender. We need (and indeed have) a lot of women like yourself in our industry. No doubt we need more, but the way these shrill and often non-technical people go about advocating for it does nothing to advance their cause.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

A wise man once said:

"If you meet one person in your day who is an asshole, he's an asshole. If everyone you meet in your day is an asshole, you're the asshole."

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Virtucon]

yeah don't let a great technical solution get in the way of an organizations diversity initiatives. I long time ago I was sitting in a room with HR people who espoused how the company had received multiple awards from this three letter acronym and this four letter acronym on diversity and support of this set of rights and that. That forced me to ask: "Hey, while you may have received these awards, where are they physically? I don't see them in the hallways or on the walls? Do you have them in a closet? If so you should bring the awards out of the closet." My coworkers laughed, obviously the HR people scowled.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[ADRA]

I'd call this the taxi distinction. Every time my girlfriend, sees a taxi she's terrified that they're going to do something dangerous or reckless. The reason? Quite a few taxi drivers are doing stupid things. Are all of them? Certainly not. Are they any more likely to do stupid things per km of driving vs. the general public? Almost certainly not, but the difference is this:

1. To my GF, all taxi drivers are the same. They represent the single very present danger of being in an accident, so she is terrified that all drivers (the good and the bad) act according to their
2. Taxi drivers are generally on the road much longer hours than we are, so statistically if nothing else, they're more likely to be involved in accidents.

Have these women had bad experiences (perceved or in real) in the workplace? Almost certainly.
Are their experiences with men in general colored by these bad past experiences (much like my taxi analogy)? Very possible.

It really sucks to generalize, but no matter how much you want to fight against it, its ingrained in who we are to defend against people/things that have wronged them (or perception of wrongness).

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[bradley13]

Thank you Lauren. As a guy, it's often a bit dicey to come out and call BS on this (even though I am married to a woman with all sorts of technical credentials).

My take is: the more people point the spotlight as women in tech, the more they scare potential women away. In my experience, people don't want the limelight, at least, not that way. They want to be respected for their skills, not their gender, or skin color, or religion, or whatever.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Sangui5]

I'm going to agree in part and disagree in part.

I'll agree: whining endlessly about microagressions (micro == 10E-6 == very small; what is there to whine about?) is counterproductive. It destracts from the real issue.

The Ada Initiative was spawned (in part) because of a very much non-micro agression. That is, a full, no-SI prefix, shoulda-been-a-year-in-jail-for-assault aggression. Hands in the pants is flat out unreasonable. Full stop, schlusspunkt... Period. Fucking. Dot.

I'm happy that you've not had such a problem. Apparantly you're batting a thousand; even as a guy, I've been harrassed. I don't want to speak ill of the dead, but one of the more senior employees at a previous job hit on me and then felt me up. "De mortuis nihil nisi bonum", and I've forgiven her long ago, but nobody should have to deal with that. And the rate of "dealing with that" for women in tech is far too high.

So, yeah, I agree in part and disagree in part. People should stop whining about stuff that doesn't matter; similarly we should pay attention to a real problem.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[loonycyborg]

Indeed such initiatives seem very one sided. While fighting one kind of stereotypes(men being sex obsessed assholes) they reinforce other stereotypes (women being pathologically nice and insecure). But human character isn't defined by configuration of their genitalia, rather than by sum of their past experiences. Yet stereotypes are part of one's experience and sometimes make one implicitly believe things that are not true.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, can't we even talk about this without being accused of bizarre stuff we didn't say or advocate?

No we cannot. If we did, we wouldn't be able to accuse anybody who raise concerns of ethics in journalism to be just another GG support, and obvious if you support GG you must advocate doxxing and harassing women.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[psm321]

Your post reminds me of this (IMO excellent) essay: http://www.linuxjournal.com/co...

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[AmiMoJo]

I see the moderation abuse has started early in this thread.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[LaurenCates]

And you know what? I HAVE TOO.

People around here seem to misunderstand me when I say that "the problem's not that bad".

I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I'm saying that the problem is not an epidemic the way Slashdot and many "feminist" organizations say it is.

So, go fuck yourself, AC, at least until you're willing to not be an AC and tell me that directly.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[LaurenCates]

And by the way, anecdotes =/= data.

I'm not about to take it on faith from someone who won't even post as anything other than AC that things just "happen" because people say they do.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[serviscope_minor]

And, no, your feminist blog is not proof that it is. Any and all feminist blogs offering such "proof" will be roundly ignored.

This seems to be your primary method of argument: ignore everything you don't like, except for easily forged GIFs and ranty blogs "proving" that gamergate isn't in fact filled with utter scum. I like how last time I pesented you with evidence you (a) refused to acknowledge its existence, (b) accused me of ignoring your eveidence when you never presented any.

Given you're clearly biased:

But I go to Code Camps and other technical events fairly regularly. And I've never once got the sense that I (or any of the other women in the room) have been hounded, or hounded out or treated with derision.

Er, so? By your own rules, this is completely inadmissable as evidence. I've personally observes some seriously stalky behaviour at conferences. You can choose to ignore that however because hey if you shut your eyes tight enough then what's outside really doesn't exist!

If you can't find any decent people around you, and you're calling everyone an asshole

Swish! Kill that straw man. Phew, he won't be getting up again!

Or as we used to say when we were kids: "She who smelt it, dealt it."

Even as a kid, I knew that was demonstrably false. But yeah, aphorisms for 5 year olds are a great way to manage the complexities of the real world. How about chants of "sticks and stones" next?

Men don't need to be taught not to [...] harass.

So the stalky guy I saw who camped outside the ladie's toilets so make sure the subject of his stalkiness didn't need to be taught not to do that? Apparently he was unable to figure it out on his own.

Maybe, then, the solution is to stop treating sexism as if it's a constant problem for everyone at all times.

Wow these straw men are falling like flies! Soon the whole straw army will be dead and you can declare sweet victory!

And on a final note, women in tech are much more likely to experience sexism because assuming (a) a gender imbalance and (b) both genders are equally sexist, the minority gender will on average experience more harassment because maths:

http://blog.ian.gent/2013/10/t...

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

I posted something very similar to this and added the angle that for men no workplace is ever secured because women can and will get your job if you fail at it.

But I'm a guy so I got shot down for being a misogynist.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[gweihir]

We also have female assholes (about 50% of them all, IMO, consistent with feminist "theory" that gender is an illusion) and when these do their thing and then experience push-back, that is not "harassment" either.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, god forbid you open a fucking door and go outside to see how the real world works. You say it isn't an epidemic and so we must listen to you? Because YOUR anecdotes=data, but someone else might have a story that directly conflicts with yours and therefore it is false. If you're going to go out and say that all these people who have been experiencing this kind of bullshit should "suck it up" cause "that's just the way it is" then you're doing nothing but perpetuating this "non-issue." Posted as AC because IGAF.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

And on a final note, women in tech are much more likely to experience sexism because assuming (a) a gender imbalance and (b) both genders are equally sexist, the minority gender will on average experience more harassment because maths

My experience - in a scientific field, with a male:female ratio of about 3:1 - is that female-on-male harassment is more common than male-on-female harassment (notably including every single instance of physical violence), despite this effect. That is, women are more likely to harass than men are, by a sufficient margin to overcome the gender ratio.

I suspect this is less likely to be related to each gender's innate tendency for malicious behaviour, but rather a result of biased community standards: male-on-female harassment is taken more seriously and punished more harshly than female-on-male harassment, so men have a stronger incentive to behave well. Or perhaps this just drives them to hide it better: I wouldn't have picked up instances of harassment that occur in private.

The other tidbit I noted was that women who spoke frequently about misogyny were most likely to commit harassment. The statistics on this were worse, because I was dealing with a subset of the sample, but still over 90% confidence. I suspect this is a basic human pattern: once you treat someone as an enemy, it's easier to justify doing bad things to them.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[phantomfive]

Anyone who tries to accomplish something worthwhile in this world will be insulted and have people try to tear them down.
Anyone who stands out will be mocked.
Anyone who posts on the internet will eventually get a death threat.

It's the way of life. You can't do anything without someone hating you for it.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

"So the stalky guy I saw who camped outside the ladie's toilets"

Maybe he was waiting for his girlfriend to come out. People like you see sexism or other -isms in everything. I frequently wait outside womens bathrooms when I wait for my wife to come out. Stupid.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[imidan]

As much as I don't want to talk about it anymore, I feel like the more of the stuff like this that gets posted, the more it gets accepted as "truth" that women are somehow under attack by "the boys club".

I hope it isn't. I see the conversations on-line today, and they appear to be two completely polarized extremes hurling bilious invective at each other and threatening (and even acting against) each other in ways that are totally unacceptable in discourse. I am a guy, and in my shop, there happen to be three men and three women working together. As far as I have ever seen, nobody has ever been harassed, sexually or otherwise. If anyone ever is, I'd like to think that all the stuff we hear from HR means something, and the problem could be resolved through those channels. I support people's rights to not be harassed at work.

In fact, in my time here, the only person I've ever had any friction with is another guy, and he was a moron, and he doesn't work here anymore. And he had the same friction with other men and with women. But it wasn't harassment. And it never descended to the level of what I've seen on the Internet. These two sides have just descended into the deepest muckhole they can find and are unswervingly dedicated to hurling as much filth at each other as they can.

So I don't think people should harass others at work, but I also think that some people sometimes need to grow a little thicker skin. I've had interactions with people in professional settings in which I've felt personally insulted by something they said or did. But when that happens, I don't fly off the handle and try to get the other person fired. Not every slight needs to be elevated to the level of existential crisis. Sometimes, you just have to grit your teeth and get the job done, even when the person you're working with is distasteful.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Shadow of Eternity]

There are two very opposite views of women clashing here. One side constantly publicly says that women are weak, less intelligent, and less capable than men and need constant handholding, coddling, and special treatment even in the safest of fields. One says that women are just as strong, intelligent, and capable as men and they should be taught that instead of being taught that they're inferior.

The grand irony is that the latter is called misogyny and the former feminism.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[serviscope_minor]

Maybe he was waiting for his girlfriend to come out.

Nope. He was stalking one of the other conference attendees. He was following her round like a imprinted duckling for a good fraction of the conference. I actually saw her go into the bathroom and him stop and wait outside. When I came by about 5 or 10 minutes later (it was during a poster session there was a lot of wandering around), I noiced him still there.

I do love how you are so desperate to believe sexism doesn't exist that you assume I lack the basic powers of observation, not to mention show a complete knowledge of conferences. Who the hell brings their spouse to a conference?

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Shadow of Eternity]

You realise you just pretty much quoted the KKK's justification for calling blacks inferior and violent, right?

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Shadow of Eternity]

Perhaps it would help to clarify that by "safe spaces" they mean places where there is no open harassment and abuse. Like what has happened to many female developers on social media in the last year or two, for example. I don't think many people would argue that there should be law-free zones where that kind of thing is allowed.

There is no space safe enough in the world for people who consider disagreement to be harassment, and who will pay up to $20 a tweet to fabricate threats against themselves.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Shadow of Eternity]

Women in tech have a 4:1 advantage over men, and men are much more likely to experience harassment and more severe harassment than women.

And of course there's nothing that harasses and abuses women in this world nearly as much as feminism.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Ada Initiative was spawned (in part) because of a very much non-micro agression. That is, a full, no-SI prefix, shoulda-been-a-year-in-jail-for-assault aggression. Hands in the pants is flat out unreasonable. Full stop, schlusspunkt... Period. Fucking. Dot.

So, instead of naming the guy on her blog, why didn't she just go to the cops and file a complaint?

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[alvinrod]

It's just an observation of human nature. It's why groups like the KKK exist and you'll be hard pressed to find a person or group that doesn't do this. People have experiences and generalize from them and then act on those generalizations. People are even notorious for holding on to those beliefs even when shown clearly contradictory evidence. Our brains are wired to work that way after hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, and even if a person is congnizant of this, they're still susceptible to falling into that kind of thinking.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[goose-incarnated]

Men don't need to be taught not to [...] harass.

So the stalky guy I saw who camped outside the ladie's toilets so make sure the subject of his stalkiness didn't need to be taught not to do that?

He needed that teaching. What makes you think men need that same teaching? (I know, I know, if one man does it it means all men do it... right?)

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[serviscope_minor]

He needed that teaching. What makes you think men need that same teaching? (I know, I know, if one man does it it means all men do it... right?)

Apparently not only do some men need to be taught not to harass, others (or perhaps the same ones) need to be taught basic reading comprenension. It's much easier for me to point and laugh, how ever.

Ha ha.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[serviscope_minor]

So... instead of trying to rationally rebut any of the points I made, you posted a bunch of nonsequiteurs. Frankly, they're so disconnected to any of the points I was making I have no idea what you're trying to imply.

Are you claiming the stalking I saw didn't happen, or didn't matter? Or are you making some other claim?

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Shadow of Eternity]

So... instead of accepting that I've empirically gutted the entire underlying premise of your argument as well as your points you're going to claim I've posted a bunch of non-sequiturs in what amounts to shouting "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[serviscope_minor]

No, you haven't gutted anything. You posted a bunch of radom, often unrelated statistics and claim it gutted my argument, rather than making a counter argument. Statistics aren't an argument, they're evidence to give weight to an argument. You've posted evidence of somehthing, but failed to actually form a coherent argument based around it.

Come on dude, this is like debating 101.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you are just fucking retarded.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[KGIII]

I hope Junior is doing well... Has he been keeping up on his parkour lessons?

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[LaurenCates]

Everything you said? Yeah, can be turned around on you as well.

And I stand by my assessment that the world is good AND bad. AND, I'm willing to say it as a non-AC.

When you talk about how "the real world works", you're basically saying that MY experiences (and the experiences of the women I know are not valid.

Now, I'm sorry if I have other things to do in a day than take polls and do research to counteract any bullshit "gender studies" stories that come out in the media. All I can do is provide witness that this idea of "men keeping women out of tech happens everywhere, at all times to all women" is bullshit.

Hopefully the scales will turn, but until then, how about you stop telling me how to feel about things? Or do I need to take lashings like all the other women YOU know until I've "seen the light"?

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[LaurenCates]

Yes, and how many of the people in this discussion are actually female?

Raise hands, people.

Not that I necessarily need for the majority of you to be women, mind you. Though I do think it's profoundly unfair that you have to start from the position of "I'm not one of those guys", as if the default assumption is that you have to prove you're not.

No, what I'm saying is that if the base assumption of this discussion is treatment of women, then why aren't more women speaking up? And I'm saying this for both sides.

Is it because there are fewer women? Is it because fewer women make the choice to stay in tech, or indeed make the choice to BE in tech? And who cares if they don't?

The problem at the end of the day for me is that I'm tired of people reminding me that I'm a woman, tired of them dictating what my experience is when they don't fucking know me and tired of the assumption that the contents of my pants are somehow important when it comes to me doing my job.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[LaurenCates]

You said:

"So I don't think people should harass others at work, but I also think that some people sometimes need to grow a little thicker skin. I've had interactions with people in professional settings in which I've felt personally insulted by something they said or did. But when that happens, I don't fly off the handle and try to get the other person fired. Not every slight needs to be elevated to the level of existential crisis. Sometimes, you just have to grit your teeth and get the job done, even when the person you're working with is distasteful."

And this is what I mean when I say "women need to grow a thicker skin".

Not everything is indicative of misogyny. Sometimes the guys want to include you in their game, and that game is busting your (metaphorical) balls.

The best leaders I've ever met (male AND female) understood the philosophy that not everyone is going to like you, that good leaders piss people off all the time, and you learn how to work peaceably with people who don't agree with you.

Yes, there are going to be haters. That's the point. They make you stronger and sharper. You can't just Slip n' Slide your way to a leadership position. Sometimes there are obstacles. Sometimes there are really terrible ones. But if you're going to whine and complain at every little slight, you're simply proving that you're not worthy of the thing you say you want.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[david_thornley]

Do people need to be taught not to murder? Do women need to realize that some areas have high robbery and/or murder rates, and just deal with it? The idea that people don't have to be taught not to be criminals, and victims should just deal with it, is really odd.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Shadow of Eternity]

Sounds almost exactly like what Hedgemage said.

No, what I'm saying is that if the base assumption of this discussion is treatment of women, then why aren't more women speaking up? And I'm saying this for both sides.

Is it because there are fewer women? Is it because fewer women make the choice to stay in tech, or indeed make the choice to BE in tech? And who cares if they don't?

A combination of an already small population due to these fields being turned into ghettos for non-conforming/unattractive men and any women who do dare to speak up are outright terrorized for it.

Clearly this behavior presents a paradox, one which operates as follows: 'The Victim' is a social role in which a person or group is acted upon but does not have the agency to respond. Victims therefore need others to defend them. In this dynamic all power of the Victim is given to those who defend them and no matter how destructive or paradoxical, the Defender's actions are said to be best for the Victim.

According to Anti-Gamer Activists, women are victims. They require protection because they will always be victims. And should a woman break the confines of the Victim archetype, strange things start to happen.

A woman who speaks for herself, defends herself and takes responsibility for herself is not a victim. However we are dealing with an ideology which defines women exclusively as Victims. Therefore women who fail to fulfill the role of Victim must be broken and returned to their proper place. They must be subject to abuse or de-feminized and told they have been corrupted by patriarchal ideology.

Women are supported and encouraged but they are only supported and encouraged to be broken and helpless. They are kept within a set archetype.

The attacks on women now make sense. It's a paradoxical cycle where people abuse women to justify the claim that women need to be defended. Defenders never question their behavior because it is justified by the existence of the victim which they themselves created.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Shadow of Eternity]

And now you're doubling down on denial, trying to act like what I posted doesn't completely undo the fundamental foundations on which your entire premise is based. The facts speak for themselves.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[serviscope_minor]

Oh I see. You seem to believe that you posting facts claiming men get harassed more on the internet some how has bearing on scientific conferences and the stalking I personally saw.

Facts don't make an argument. Facts support an argument. You have failed to actually make an argument. You've now managed to failat debating 101 twice, even after some instruction. You're not very good at this.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Shadow of Eternity]

The only thing I've "failed" to do is agree with your patently false femsploitation rhetoric.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Shadow of Eternity]

Oh and if you want to keep bringing up stalking guess what else women are more likely to do than men.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[serviscope_minor]

Oh and if you want to keep bringing up stalking guess what else women are more likely to do than men.

So? What's that got to do with it? Or are you so stupid as to claim that because there are more male stalkers than female in the general population that somehow women being stalked is not a problem?

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[serviscope_minor]

femsploitation

Well, thanks, that actually gave me a bit of a chuckle :)

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[Shadow of Eternity]

Once again you twist and bend like a wacky waving inflatable arm flailing tube man to avoid having to admit that, as always, your rhetoric of female oppression is disproven if not outright reversed by the facts.

Re:Oh, Christ, here we go...

[serviscope_minor]

Once again you twist and bend like a wacky waving inflatable arm flailing tube man

Ah yes. Invective as expected from one who lacks a rational argument. Though I will admit that is an excellent insult and I'd do well to remember it to bring it out at an appropriate time :)

I like how you've stopped short of claiming that I didn't see what I saw but nontheless continue as if it never happened.

If you're the same, why treat you differently?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I create the Charles organization, to "help improve open source culture and build a more inviting, productive, safe environment for men" ?

"appropriate sexual dialogue"

[demon driver]

"The only appropriate sexual dialogue between tech workers" IS none at all, as long as there's just a slim chance someone might be offended, and it's stupidly immature not to get that in one's head, and as long a such immature offenders constitute a significant portion of tech workers, organizations like the Ada Institute are totally needed.

Re:"appropriate sexual dialogue"

[cayenne8]

"The only appropriate sexual dialogue between tech workers" IS none at all, as long as there's just a slim chance someone might be offended, and it's stupidly immature not to get that in one's head, and as long a such immature offenders constitute a significant portion of tech workers, organizations like the Ada Institute are totally needed.

Or..they could actually grow a bit thicker skin, and ignore people and their words that don't mean a damned thing, and be professional and get their job done.....like most people do.

Quit crying and deal with the real world that isn't all sunshine, rainbows, unicorns and people at are at all concerned about your self esteem.

This is the real world, deal with it....I'm talking to BOTH men and women.

Re:"appropriate sexual dialogue"

[chipschap]

Wouldn't it be nice if we all just followed some common sense principles? I know, not going to happen, but still....

How about: try to be nice and not to deliberately offend others. On the other hand, try to be reasonable and not be offended by every little thing, especially something not intended to offend.

A little consideration, met with a little forgiveness and understanding, would go a long way.

Re:"appropriate sexual dialogue"

[spire3661]

This is HR speak, not human speak. Humans are VERY AMOROUS, the ONLY people with a vested interest in stopping this is the company. You can call it unprofessional, but that just shows how soulless business is.

Re:"appropriate sexual dialogue"

[Darinbob]

Or be a professional and don't try to find out how thick someone's skin is by insulting or harrassing them.

Re:"appropriate sexual dialogue"

[Darinbob]

The workplace is not your dating pool.

Re: "appropriate sexual dialogue"

[Anonymous Coward]

That becomes less and less reasonable of an assumption as companies exploit their salaried, exempt tech workers more and more diminishing their life outside of work.

And consider the number of marriages that occur between co-workers. I have seen plenty during my time.

Humans at work are still humans.

Wrong.

[Frosty Piss]

Ada was never a "mainstream" language, and in fact is still used widely in aerospace and other mission critical control applications.

Re:Wrong.

[Virtucon]

This is why the gov't shouldn't be specifying the details of how, just the want.

Re:Wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nonsense. Ada is still an excellent choice here; there are standards to comply with, tools that can verify code, procedures for code audits.

Re:Wrong.

[LWATCDR]

Really?
So when they contract out for a say an avionics system it would be fine if the product was delivered in some proprietary language giving the vendor a complete lock in?

Re:Wrong.

[Virtucon]

stipulate "open, widely used and available" standards in the contract. We're talking the government here anyway, it's a three legged bar stool and they'll still pay $1M/each for them even though you can go to a furniture store and get them for $100.

Re:Wrong.

[LWATCDR]

"open, widely used and available"
Yeahhh... No.
So Perl, Python ?
Military systems have life spans of decades. What is widely used today is a niche tomorrow. When Ada was first specified about the only languages that fit your requirements where COBOL and FORTRAN. If you want to stretch it a bit you might include Pascal.
This was 1977 after all.
Ada actually fits your requirements pretty well. Most new systems are now using C++ but Ada is an interesting language for writing highly reliable systems.

Re:Wrong.

[phantomfive]

There's a quote about Ada that I always think about:

It's quite apparent that the evolution of the C family of languages (C, C++, Java, C#) is converging on a language very like Ada, except unfortunately as a kludgepile rather than a clean design.

Then there is this quote from the same page:

? I wrote in Ada for two years. My experience was that its extremely consistent data-typing rules and high readability gave me the highest productivity and lowest bug rate of any environment I've used before or since.....I would say that in Ada more than any language I've ever personally used (or seen) it is possible to truly express and recognize DESIGN.

Of course, the Ariane 5 shows that no language can save you from bad programming. Ultimately it is the people using the language that matters, not the language itself.

Re:Wrong.

[Virtucon]

Don't preach to me about military systems please. The use of Ada doesn't make a system anymore sustainable or better than Perl or Python. Frankly, there's C, C++, Pascal crap even COBOL still survives. Those aren't niche technologies depending on industry. It all depends on the context and use of the system.

Oh and in 1977 there was C and it was a hell of a lot better than Ada especially in the embedded space which is what you're primarily talking about. A bad idea that became worse just like BLISS for all you DEC fans out there.

Re:Wrong.

[Darinbob]

Right, in 1977 until the first Ada compilers in 1982, there was not yet the attitude that there should be a monoculture with only one language. Designing a new language was relatively common, and it promoted a lot of new ideas which was a good thing.

Re:Wrong.

[Darinbob]

Ada failed for military systems because it was too easy to get exceptions. And as for embedded systems, modern Ada is a good fit there.

In 1982, Ada was very competitive to C as C at the time was still in flux, was not popular at all outside of Unix, was not standardized, and lacked many features that Ada had, such as strong typing. The C of 1977 was almost a toy, it didn't even have separate name spaces between structs at the time (check out the 1977 Lion's Commentary of Unix for examples).

Re:Wrong.

[LWATCDR]

In 1982 their was no standard for c. You had K&R c but the official ANSI c standard was not published until 1989. In 1982 c did not fit your own requirements.
BTW frankly any programing language makes a system more maintainable than PERL.

Re:Wrong.

[Virtucon]

C wasn't in flux, there were multiple implementations and the beginnings of standard C came about in the late 70s with an ANSI committee finally getting into the mix in the early 80s. That didn't mean that C wasn't stable, it was fragmented and it could be #Ifdef hell. There were other operating systems other than UNIX that had C compilers, and all of the problems stemmed from mostly customized library and header implementations.

The DoD cooked up Ada and like all military projects it's bloated, costs too much and perpetually needs maintenance. Great if you're looking for job security, lousy if you're trying to deliver a system. I mean the DoD should have just used APL or PL/1 instead.

Re:Wrong.

[Virtucon]

K&R C worked great, the source was available and it was available on most of the mainstream platforms and took off on PCs. The fact that it wasn't blessed by ANSI didn't make it invalid nor unusable. The fact that ANSI took years to adopt XJ311 was another indication of why ANSI shouldn't have been "the standards body" because AFAIR there wasn't much change really from 1978 K&R and C89, function definition as I recall was a big one and library standardization. The fact that it took 6 years was a blemish on the whole standards process in general, but then 802.11 standards have been worse at times.

ADA 83 didn't come along until 5 years after K&R C and it was all ready for those new-fangled BSD Sockets that came along with BSD 4.2 on the old DARPAnet. That as they say is when things went pear shaped.

Re:Wrong.

[Frosty Piss]

Ada is without question more "reliable" for "life or death" mission critical applications. Your comment shows ignorence about the why and how Ada was designed.

Re:Wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

In 1982 their was

u wot m8?!

Re:Wrong.

[LWATCDR]

"K&R C worked great, the source was available and it was available on most of the mainstream platforms and took off on PCs"
c did not take off on the PC for a while and when it did it was Turbo C that was the first really popular compiler.
Sorry but when you are specing anything a government project you really needed to have a hard spec and not one bases on a book by two guys at AT&T. Also the source to c was not open you had to pay AT&T for it. At the time Ada seemed like a great idea since the DOD had software projects in over 100 different languages. Just as most companies will have requirements to use x language for a projects and even coding standards it is logical that the DOD would do the same. The Ada requirement was limited to mission critical systems. You did not have to write every word processor or spreadsheet in Ada for the DOD. If you where writing weapons control software for a 688 class sub then yes.
BTW even today Ada meets your original requirements It is open and it is still widely used. You can get a free Ada compiler http://www.gnu.org/software/gn...

Re:Wrong.

[Virtucon]

Excuse me, Turbo C? Some of use were on BSD, VAXes and KLs quite awhile before there was Turbo C. Source code was available although you had to hop around a bit for it. There were lots of open implementations, go back and look. UNIX was great but it wasn't the only game in town. ADA is still a joke and like I said before it's great if you want career job security but not popular or really worthy on a resume. Maybe I should put KL-10 assembly language, that's an up and coming language or that great language PL-6 which only ran on one operating system, CP6. All dead systems, all dead languages, just like ADA. Even today, ADA isn't even in the top 10, an also-ran. Strangely C is still there, even after nearly forty years after the K&R standard. It seems if you wanted durability, longevity and a wide adoption you picked the wrong horse.

Re:Wrong.

[LWATCDR]

"me of use were on BSD, VAXes and KLs quite awhile before there was Turbo C."
"c did not take off on the PC for a while and when it did it was Turbo C that was the first really popular compiler."
I was referencing just the PC market is is clear by my statement.

" ADA is still a joke and like I said before it's great if you want career job security but not popular or really worthy on a resume."
Maybe not as the only language but here are a list of large systems written in Ada
http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~mfeld...
The list of Boeing Aircraft as well as the Atlas V and Delta IV are to my mind pretty interesting jobs but yes it is a niche area but one that pays well.

Top ten languages based on what? Python? Yes a lot of FOSS projects are in Python and it is a nice scripting language but number 2?
Your jumping up and down and frothing at the mouth has made it clear that you do not like Ada. That does not mean that the idea that a government or company when contracting for a software project should not specify the language used, OS, and or libraries used for the project. It also does not mean prove that it was a bad idea or that it is a bad language.

Success?

[ajzimm3rman]

Failing after 4 years is not a success.

Obvious

[meta-monkey]

I think the solution is obvious.

I don't want you looking at me!

[Anonymous Coward]

eww! fat nerds! Gross! I wish they'd all just go away!

"But that guy is hot! and rich!"

Oh, he can come over here and "harass" me all he wants! Hello, handsome!

Seriously, fucking sorority and fraternity boys taking over.

Good

[Intrepid imaginaut]

The Ada Initiative is a hardcore feminist organisation whose conference guidelines were used to justify the expulsion and subsequent firings of two engineers in the donglegate debacle. Despite claiming to be non violent, apparently they aren't bothered by suggestions to hand out the S.C.U.M. Manifesto at conferences - that would be the Society For Cutting Up Men - whose deranged author had attempted to murder Andy Warhol. They were also responsible for shutting down a well known and respected speaker at another conference.

These sorts of parasitic strident supremacist organisations aren't helping women, they're actively trying to damage men, and the sooner they are revealed for what they are the better. The extent to which this diseased movement has made its way into many parts of society will, for future generations, become a matter for horrified fascination, an education in mass institutionalised fraud and hysteria, an object lesson in the ease with which a moral panic can be raised.

And don't even bother with accusations of misogyny. Seriously, it's a sad and transparent attempt to shame the voices of truth into silence.

Re:Good

[QuietLagoon]

the voices of truth

Your point of view travels further when you allow it to be judged upon its own merits and you do not say every other point of view is not "the truth".

I usually stop reading whenever I see someone saying that they are the 'voice of truth'. Good thing you waited until the end of your message before you said it, otherwise I would not have read your message.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Your point of view travels further when you allow it to be judged upon its own merits and you do not say every other point of view is not "the truth".

He didn't say every other point of view is not the truth. His statement on voices of truth is in the context of the one before it, where he warns people not to just dismiss what he's saying as misogyny.

It's really the same thing as what you're saying: don't discredit what he's saying as misogyny, judge his words by its merit.

Also note that he said voiceS of truth, plural. He's not just saying it for himself, but any other voice that feminists might discredit as misogynist and thus avoid having to actually judge those views on their merit.

I usually stop reading whenever I see someone saying that they are the 'voice of truth'.

Again, he said "voiceS of truth". Methinks you ought to read more, as your demonstrated reading skills are very lacking.

I should also note, that your whole post was not a judgment on his words on their merit. Methinks you ought to practice more of what you preach.

Re:Good

[AmiMoJo]

So you link to their "support" of handing out the S.C.U.M. is... I'm not sure, are you saying they should have deleted the comment that seems to be suggesting that the parent is an extremist and so should hand it out? The link really doesn't seem to support your claim that they support this document, quite the opposite in fact.

As for the conference, it seems that someone wanted to give a talk not really related to information security, and the conference organizers asked the Ada Initiative for advice. They suggested that as the subject matter may be problematic for some attendees that they should consider if the material is appropriate for people expecting an information security conference and if there should be warnings. It's an IT conference, and talk about sex and drugs doesn't really fit. The talk was then cancelled by the organizers. I don't see a problem here.

Re:Good

[Theaetetus]

The Ada Initiative is a hardcore feminist organisation whose conference guidelines were used to justify the expulsion and subsequent firings of two engineers in the donglegate debacle. Despite claiming to be non violent, apparently they aren't bothered by suggestions to hand out the S.C.U.M. Manifesto at conferences - that would be the Society For Cutting Up Men - whose deranged author had attempted to murder Andy Warhol.

You think that a comment with no replies means that the organization isn't bothered by it? If you're not a hypocrite, go read Slashdot at -1, and make those same accusations about the crowd here.

They were also responsible for shutting down a well known and respected speaker at another conference.

... who was going to give a talk about sex, rape, and the use of drugs to obviate consent, at a computer security conference. And it wasn't the Ada Initiative that "shut it down", but rather, the conference organizer decided to shut it down because 'the talk included "discussion of date rape drugs"'. In fact, contrary to your accusation, the Ada Initiative suggested ways that the speaker could still make the presentation, specifically doing a video of the talk or as an after-con talk. As the organizer states, "I have since reached out to Violet about recording her talk so we can put it up on our video site."

These sorts of parasitic strident supremacist organisations aren't helping women, they're actively trying to damage men, and the sooner they are revealed for what they are the better.

Along with hypocrites and those who misrepresent facts, yes.

Re:Good

[Intrepid imaginaut]

You think that a comment with no replies means that the organization isn't bothered by it? If you're not a hypocrite, go read Slashdot at -1, and make those same accusations about the crowd here.

Slashdot deliberately exercises very little editorial control, I would certainly expect a professional organisation to police the commentary on its website.

... who was going to give a talk about sex, rape, and the use of drugs to obviate consent, at a computer security conference. And it wasn't the Ada Initiative that "shut it down", but rather, the conference organizer decided to shut it down because 'the talk included "discussion of date rape drugs"'. In fact, contrary to your accusation, the Ada Initiative suggested ways that the speaker could still make the presentation, specifically doing a video of the talk or as an after-con talk. As the organizer states, "I have since reached out to Violet about recording her talk so we can put it up on our video site."

Trying to rewrite history doesn't work very well on the internet, you know.

I arrived at the Security BSides venue half an hour before my talk was set to begin, and I tracked down the main organizer to get connected with the speaker wrangler. I found him next door at DNA Pizza, where he was talking with this person. I apologized for the interruption, the organizer told me where to wait, and the woman he was talking to smiled at me. I smiled back.

The organizer came into the LockSport Lounge around 10 minutes later and asked if he could speak with me. I asked Eric Michaud to join me.

The organizer said, “So, I need to ask you: is there any rape in your talk?”

I said, “Is there any WHAT in my talk?” I was shocked.

“Well, there’s been a complaint about your talk.” He continued, “It’s from someone who is a rape survivor and they said they will be triggered by your talk if there’s any rape in it.”

“No, no, there’s no rape in my talk. I talk about human sexual systems and the effects drugs, including caffeine and alcohol, affect the performance of these systems and the dangers of mixing different things. What’s going on here?”

He replied, “Someone has said they will be triggered by your talk, and they’re a rape survivor.”

“Okay. In the talk I do cover ‘date rape’ drugs, and I explain their actions and how they’re dangerous.”

Then he said, “Do you describe how to use date rape drugs? They said that if you are going to tell people how to use date rape drugs then it’s the same as rape, and there’s going to be a problem.”

I told the organizer, “Wow, this really sucks - I know it’s not your fault. Well, how about if I shift the talk to a different room? We could put it on the smaller stage where the room has doors that close, or I could do it in the LockSport Lounge. Hell, I can even present it at the afterparty, it’s no problem. What is going to be easiest for you? It looks like you’re in a shitty position.”

“No, they’re here and they’re not leaving. They told me they’ll make it into a bigger problem if you do your talk.”

I paused for a minute. I said, “Okay. I guess I won’t give my talk, then. I don’t want this to be a problem for you, you’re in a shit position. It sounds like this person is going to make it into a bigger problem no matter what you do. It’s no big deal, don’t worry about it. Maybe I can do a video of the talk and BSides can have it as an after-con talk.”

The way the organizer looked at me, I knew that wouldn’t happen, either.

I said,

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing you supply logic and evidence to refute the argument instead of just denying ...

Oh wait.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Social engineering is 90% of security. A talk about "sex, rape, and the use of drugs to obviate consent" is 100% relevant to security, but it ruffles the feathers of the weak minded so we can't talk about it and everybody loses.

Re:Good

[LWATCDR]

I have to say that while I do not extremists groups of any type your examples leave me wondering.
Violet Blue is not a well known security expert she is sex columnist. I also think that you in the context of computer security least she is not highly respected. I can seen the logic in the statement that a sex talk has no place in a computer security conference.

Re:Good

[Theaetetus]

You think that a comment with no replies means that the organization isn't bothered by it? If you're not a hypocrite, go read Slashdot at -1, and make those same accusations about the crowd here.

Slashdot deliberately exercises very little editorial control, I would certainly expect a professional organisation to police the commentary on its website.

Based on what? Apparently, they aren't, but rather than facts get in the way of your rhetoric, you'll just go on your own expectations.

... who was going to give a talk about sex, rape, and the use of drugs to obviate consent, at a computer security conference. And it wasn't the Ada Initiative that "shut it down", but rather, the conference organizer decided to shut it down because 'the talk included "discussion of date rape drugs"'. In fact, contrary to your accusation, the Ada Initiative suggested ways that the speaker could still make the presentation, specifically doing a video of the talk or as an after-con talk. As the organizer states, "I have since reached out to Violet about recording her talk so we can put it up on our video site."

Trying to rewrite history doesn't work very well on the internet, you know.

You're right, it doesn't. I'm not sure why you think the conference organizer's statement is "rewriting history", though. Is it because, again, you would rather disregard facts when they disagree with your rhetoric?

Yeah your colours are showing

Yep. Anyone who disagrees with you or provides evidence that you're wrong must immediately be attacked as biased. As someone else noted, anyone who refers to themselves as the 'voice of truth' is indicating that they're nothing of the sort.

Re:Good

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Based on what?

...based on any hope they might have that people would take them seriously? I mean do you know what the SCUM Manifesto actually is? It makes Mein Kampf look like a rational and reasonable body of writing by comparison. The bare notion that it would be recommended reading for anyone but students of psychiatry boggles the mind, and yet there's a comment, unchallenged, not so much as an eyebrow raised, recommending it right on the Ada website.

You're right, it doesn't.

It's all right there in black and white buddy, direct from Violet herself. Unless you're calling her a liar now.

Re:Good

[Princeofcups]

Seriously, it's a sad and transparent attempt to shame the voices of truth into silence.

Truth is easy to claim when you are in a place of power. It is easy to accuse anyone who tries to change the existing system. And no revolution is successful without getting dirty. There is no other choice. Peaceful argument has failed over and over again, since the status quo refuses to listen. Until those in power (mostly middle class white men in this case) can ever admit that there is a major issue that needs to be corrected, then expect the attacks to get nastier. If you don't want that, then start changing the bullshit that controls the IT community. You are the one in power.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to say that while I do not extremists groups of any type your examples leave me wondering.
Violet Blue is not a well known security expert she is sex columnist. I also think that you in the context of computer security least she is not highly respected. I can seen the logic in the statement that a sex talk has no place in a computer security conference.

One way to define a "computer security conference" is a conference about computer security, but another way to define it is a conference for the computer security community.

Here is what Violet Blue said about the incident herself. I'll quote one blurb, bold emphasis mine.

"I put this talk together for BSides LV knowing it would be seen at the same time as Defcon, which is reputed to be a con with lots of parties and wild behavior. The talk is structured with harm reduction methodology, the act of giving the talk is an act of harm reduction for the community, and also gives me another opportunity to tell the hacking/security communities about what harm reduction is.

I have presented talks about sexuality at tech conferences all over the world, and I make it clear each time that my talks are not technical and that they are about issues that affect the culture to which I am presenting."

My reading of this is that while sex and drugs itself isn't a tech topic, it is a topic that affects everyone, including the computer security community. The organizers actually thought it was ok to have it, until Ada raised complaints, and then all the drama broke loose.

Re:Good

[ADRA]

5 minutes of my life wasted, but here's the synopsis of the cancelled talk:

"What drugs do to sexual performance, physiological reaction and pleasure is rarely discussed in - or out of - clinical or academic settings. Yet most people have sex under the influence of something (or many somethings) at some point in their lives.

In this underground talk, Violet Blue shares what sex-positive doctors, nurses, MFT's, clinic workers and crisis counselors have learned and compiled about the interactions of drugs and sex from over three decades of unofficial curriculum for use in peer-to-peer (and emergency) counseling. Whether you're curious about the effects of caffeine or street drugs on sex, or are the kind of person that keeps your fuzzy handcuffs next to a copy of The Pocket Pharmacopeia, this overview will
help you engineer your sex life in our chemical soaked world. Or, it'll at least give you great party conversation fodder. "

Its very possible the grounds for cancellation were ridiculous, but clearly a talk on casual drug use may have some though very marginal use at a conference on security, but IMHO.

Re:Good

[Theaetetus]

...based on any hope they might have that people would take them seriously? I mean do you know what the SCUM Manifesto actually is? It makes Mein Kampf look like a rational and reasonable body of writing by comparison.

Next, you're going to be outraged about Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal, right? I mean, clearly, you don't understand satire.

The bare notion that it would be recommended reading for anyone but students of psychiatry boggles the mind,

Unless, of course, it's recommended for the same reason Swift's essay is.

and yet there's a comment, unchallenged, not so much as an eyebrow raised, recommending it right on the Ada website.

A comment left in a dead thread with no replies. Gawrsh! Again, I ask whether you've ever browsed Slashdot at -1?

It's all right there in black and white buddy, direct from Violet herself. Unless you're calling her a liar now.

The conference organizer apparently is, since he disagrees with her characterization of what happened. Unless you're calling him a liar now. And you must be, or else you've just proved my accusation of you as a hypocrite to be true. So, come on - are you calling him a liar, or are you admitting you're a hypocrite?

Re:Good

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Next, you're going to be outraged about Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal, right? I mean, clearly, you don't understand satire.

You have no idea who Valerie Solanis was, do you. Once again since your memory appears to be a bit flaky, she attempted to murder Andy Warhol and left him permanently mutilated, he was forced to wear a surgical corset for the rest of his life, for which she was diagnosed with chronic paranoid schizophrenia. Robert Marmorstein, writing in The Village Voice, declared that Solanas "has dedicated the remainder of her life to the avowed purpose of eliminating every single male from the face of the earth." Norman Mailer called her the "Robespierre of feminism."

She was deadly serious, as is her book.

The conference organizer apparently is, since he disagrees with her characterization of what happened. Unless you're calling him a liar now. And you must be, or else you've just proved my accusation of you as a hypocrite to be true. So, come on - are you calling him a liar, or are you admitting you're a hypocrite?

I'd say he was trying to cover his own ass as much as possible after the whole thing went viral, for which he can hardly be blamed. Raging internet mob on one side and ghastly feminist hatemongers on the other, most likely he'd prefer if the whole affair was quietly forgotten. I'm going with Violet's version of events, without a doubt.

Now then, at this point I have to wonder - why are you trying to drown out the facts? Are you a feminist or just someone who can't stop arguing?

Re:Good

[AmiMoJo]

Tumblr, the most reliable source of information on the internet.

Re:Good

[Theaetetus]

Next, you're going to be outraged about Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal, right? I mean, clearly, you don't understand satire.

You have no idea who Valerie Solanis was, do you. Once again since your memory appears to be a bit flaky, she attempted to murder Andy Warhol and left him permanently mutilated, he was forced to wear a surgical corset for the rest of his life, for which she was diagnosed with chronic paranoid schizophrenia.

And Warhol is mentioned in the SCUM Manifesto? No? Maybe surgical corsets are? No? So what exactly does the attempted murder of Andy Warhol have to do with your insistence that the Ada Initiative should be responding to dead comment threads? Is this just an attempt to tie a schizophrenic who tried to kill someone she thought was stealing from her to feminism as a whole? Of course it is.

The conference organizer apparently is, since he disagrees with her characterization of what happened. Unless you're calling him a liar now. And you must be, or else you've just proved my accusation of you as a hypocrite to be true. So, come on - are you calling him a liar, or are you admitting you're a hypocrite?

I'd say he was trying to cover his own ass as much as possible after the whole thing went viral, for which he can hardly be blamed.

Ah, so you accuse me of calling her a liar, but the conference organizer was just "covering his ass" for saying the same thing? Do you have any idea how schizophrenic you sound?

I'm going with Violet's version of events, without a doubt.

Now then, at this point I have to wonder - why are you trying to drown out the facts?

There are three stories of an event, but you choose one that agrees with your prejudices and then say everyone else is "trying to drown out the facts". Got it - you're a paranoid schizophrenic, hence your obsession with Solanis. I'm glad I don't have a Factory for you to visit me at.

Re:Good

[Intrepid imaginaut]

And Warhol is mentioned in the SCUM Manifesto? No? Maybe surgical corsets are? No? So what exactly does the attempted murder of Andy Warhol have to do with your insistence that the Ada Initiative should be responding to dead comment threads? Is this just an attempt to tie a schizophrenic who tried to kill someone she thought was stealing from her to feminism as a whole? Of course it is.

Ah, so you accuse me of calling her a liar, but the conference organizer was just "covering his ass" for saying the same thing? Do you have any idea how schizophrenic you sound?

There are three stories of an event, but you choose one that agrees with your prejudices and then say everyone else is "trying to drown out the facts". Got it - you're a paranoid schizophrenic, hence your obsession with Solanis. I'm glad I don't have a Factory for you to visit me at.

Yeah I'm just going to leave this here for the world to see, along with the revolutionary omelette maker who responded below. Thanks for showing everyone the intellectual pretzelling you're willing to undergo for your ideology. Really, hardcore religious fanatics are taking note. :D

Re:Good

[Theaetetus]

Yeah I'm just going to leave this here for the world to see, along with the revolutionary omelette maker who responded below.

Or, they could just hit the link to "parent". You don't actually have to do anything to "leave this here", but you believe you do. Narcissism, delusions of grandeur... That fits with your earlier statement calling yourself the "voice of truth" that you believe everyone is trying to silence, as does your paranoia.

In short, you're a looney.

Re:Good

[BadDreamer]

Wow. Just ... wow.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Next, you're going to be outraged about Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal, right? I mean, clearly, you don't understand satire.

You have no idea who Valerie Solanis was, do you. Once again since your memory appears to be a bit flaky, she attempted to murder Andy Warhol and left him permanently mutilated, he was forced to wear a surgical corset for the rest of his life, for which she was diagnosed with chronic paranoid schizophrenia.

And Warhol is mentioned in the SCUM Manifesto? No? Maybe surgical corsets are? No? So what exactly does the attempted murder of Andy Warhol have to do with your insistence that the Ada Initiative should be responding to dead comment threads? Is this just an attempt to tie a schizophrenic who tried to kill someone she thought was stealing from her to feminism as a whole? Of course it is.

The conference organizer apparently is, since he disagrees with her characterization of what happened. Unless you're calling him a liar now. And you must be, or else you've just proved my accusation of you as a hypocrite to be true. So, come on - are you calling him a liar, or are you admitting you're a hypocrite?

I'd say he was trying to cover his own ass as much as possible after the whole thing went viral, for which he can hardly be blamed.

Ah, so you accuse me of calling her a liar, but the conference organizer was just "covering his ass" for saying the same thing? Do you have any idea how schizophrenic you sound?

I'm going with Violet's version of events, without a doubt.

Now then, at this point I have to wonder - why are you trying to drown out the facts?

There are three stories of an event, but you choose one that agrees with your prejudices and then say everyone else is "trying to drown out the facts". Got it - you're a paranoid schizophrenic, hence your obsession with Solanis. I'm glad I don't have a Factory for you to visit me at.

Wow, I'm a bit speechless. I've seen some very extremist followers of some other organizations/ideas/etc., but this has got to take the cake for the ones I've seen recently...

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Tumblr, the most reliable source of information on the internet.

Well, it was the speaker's tumblr. Consider it a firsthand source with an unfortunate choice of venue.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Truth is easy to claim when you are in a place of power. It is easy to accuse anyone who tries to change the existing system. And no revolution is successful without getting dirty. There is no other choice. Peaceful argument has failed over and over again, since the status quo refuses to listen. Until those in power (mostly middle class white men in this case) can ever admit that there is a major issue that needs to be corrected, then expect the attacks to get nastier. If you don't want that, then start changing the bullshit that controls the IT community. You are the one in power.

So... You're saying that the best response is to crush those who bother the establishment utterly? I guess I can deal with that. I was hoping for some sort of peaceful co-existence, but I guess that things aren't going to work out that way.

Really, what are you trying to say? The world is pretty unforgiving to failed revolutionaries. Hell, it's pretty unforgiving to powerless people who merely get angry and smash things up. That said, what possible win condition for women in tech could come out of escalation? The field is primarily male right now, being unpleasant enough to inspire a response from it would just close doors for women. The world depends entirely too much on IT at this point to turn its back on the internet, but IT could conceivably turn its back on young women trying to enter the field.

Re: Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah... Because who wouldn't take sparse details from PR damage control over the detailed affidavit of a respected speaker.

Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't had a decent sandwich for years. The kitchen, get back to it!

Business Model

[alvinrod]

From the linked interview:

When it came to supporting our work financially, we figured that companies that benefited from open source software would just hand over giant wads of cash to an unproven new nonprofit run by two former software engineers.

I realize they're probably being tongue-in-cheek, but does it really come as any surprise that such an organization (regardless of what it's doing) would be closing down? That seems like an even more cavalier approach to funding than the typical venture-capitalist start-up approach in silicon valley where the business model is to just get a bunch of users and figure out how to generate revenue at some magical point in the future.

I think that the other big problem is that they didn't provide enough ongoing value to a company to get funding. Any organization could use their recommendations or examples to create a code of conduct, but once that's in place, they're only really receiving money for past services rendered and no business is just going to keep forking over money that they don't need to.

Wait, who was Ada Lovelace again?

[Locke2005]

I keep getting her confused with Linda Lovelace...

it is unfortunate at this outset, when they got

[Anonymous Coward]

it is unfortunate at this outset, when they got their dearest possible friend:

http://opensource.com/life/15/8/patricia-torvalds-interview

Lack of diversity proves what, exactly?

[Bruce66423]

The prison population of every country on earth is overwhelmingly male. Feminist logic implies this must be as a result of discrimination. Assuming that it is not, we need to discover why men are more likely to be criminals and computer programmers...

The answer:

[Bruce66423]

Women are too clever to get caught is NOT the answer I was suggesting...

And nothing of value was lost

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject of comment.

Shutting down because no Executive Director?

[hlee]

Reading through the website, it seems the reason they're shutting down is because the current Executive Director is stepping down, and they haven't found anyone that's a good fit, or those who are a good fit don't want the job.

Reading through the job description - I think it kind of sucks. Salary 120k-160k which is apparently the market rate for this sort of position in San Francisco - doesn't seem very much. And the following paragraph jumped out:

While this job is fulfilling and supportive in many ways, it also has some serious downsides. As the visible leader of a feminist activism organization, many people will feel entitled to your time and energy without compensation and you will need to tell them no frequently so that we can fulfill our mission. We will provide you with experienced support in handling harassment and threats, as you will almost certainly be the target of these. Sometimes partners, sponsors, donors, or community members will pressure the Ada Initiative to do things contrary to its mission and you will need to stand up to them. Listening to and responding to reports of sexual violence, intimate partner violence, and criminal harassment are a frequent part of the job.

Decisive feminista forum shutsdown ..

[Anonymous Coward]

The main initiative being a call for women only program spaces (to save their delicate sensibilities from rude male criticism) and discrediting male developers at conferences. This is when they're not emailing round the 'community' to try and get developers fired. I don't know of any male developer who organized an email campaign against a female developer in retaliation for a post on a blog. That would be Valerie 'nutjob' Aurora, good fucking riddance is all I say.
 
.. women often face harassment both online and in person. Hundreds of women took GitHub and Ada Initiative up on the offer and have made hundreds of commits, showing that women in open source see the value of a chance to learn in a supportive private environment before joining the wider community."

The dark side of open source conferences

STFU you trolling done zero little punk

[Anonymous Coward]

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk

No confusing you're a little bitch that ran

[Anonymous Coward]

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk

You're ALL TALK gweihir, no action

[Anonymous Coward]

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk

gweihir quit trying to play 'smart' you punk

[Anonymous Coward]

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk

gweihir you're all talk you trolling punk

[Anonymous Coward]

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk

gweihir you're all talk you trolling punk

[Anonymous Coward]

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk

gweihir proves he's a troll bs artist & mere t

[Anonymous Coward]

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk

You're an all talk asshole trolling punk

[Anonymous Coward]

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk

gweihir can't handle a fair challenge

[Anonymous Coward]

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk

gweihir runs like a bitch != professional

[Anonymous Coward]

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk