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Using Math To Tune a Video Game's Economy

An anonymous reader writes: When the shipping deadline was approaching for The Witcher 3, designer Matthew Steinke knew there was a big part of the game still missing: its economy. A game's economy is one of the things that can make or break immersion — you want collection and rewards to feel progressive and meaningful. Making items too expensive gives the game a grindy feel, while making them too cheap makes progression trivial. At the Game Developers Conference underway in Germany, Steinke explained his solution.

"Steinke created a formula that calculated attributes like how much damage, defense, or healing that each item provided, and he placed them into an overall combat rating could be used to rank other items in the system. ... Steinke set about blending the sub-categories into nine generalized categories, allowing him to determine the final weighting for damage and the range of prices for each item. To test if it all worked, he used polynomial least squares (a form of mathematical statistics) to chart each category's price progression. The resultant curve (pictured below) showed the rate at which spending was increasing as the quality of each item approached the category's ceiling value."

19 of 96 comments (clear)

  1. It's the big problem with space games by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As you say, you want to feel like your economic choices have consequence, and not just for your pocketbook. If I buy all the fish in town, then not only should the price of fish go up, but the fishing industry should spend its money in predictable locations and boost other industries.

    As my subject line alludes, the real place this crops up again and again is in space games. If I'm buying and selling the complete available product of a planet in some particular industry, that should have significant effects. Or, if I blow up a bunch of cargo ships carrying spaceship parts, then that should have significant and immediately noticeable effects. Instead, none of this is true at all in basically any game but EVE.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:It's the big problem with space games by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 2

      The common audience for these games wouldn't appreciate such nuance/sophistication. EVE is very much a "geek's" game. EVE's complex economics and politics tends to drive away the casual/braindead players.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    2. Re:It's the big problem with space games by Harlequin80 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      X3 came close-ish to achieving it. The price of a good was relative to the available stock. Some stations consumed certain items to make others so over time their stock levels would drop and they would offer more and more money to restock. Energy cells were the base resource used by most stations so they were a good place to start in the economy.

      The real problem though was there was no real top end consumers creating enough demand so the game dumped resources at various points to keep everything moving. And it was too easy to dominate the whole economy with a super station. Your personal business empire kept expanding but nothing else did. If you picked one of the unknown sectors to build your base you became an economic god with nothing that could stand in your way.

    3. Re:It's the big problem with space games by alvinrod · · Score: 2

      The problem is that creating a realistic economy requires writing a lot of code to handle that game behavior as well as ensuring that the game behavior realistically models a real economy, or at least enough so in order to be satisfying.

      EVE (and many MMOs) get around this problem by having the players drive the economy, which means that you don't need to code much AI to handle this as the players will tend to make intelligent decisions and create a functional economy. The only remaining issue is for developers to ensure that there're sufficient "sinks" in the economy so that inflation doesn't get out of control. EVE tends to do better here because the game allows for practically all player assets to be destroyed and leave the economy, whereas other MMOs tend to be limited in terms of what can be destroyed or permanently lost.

    4. Re:It's the big problem with space games by techno-vampire · · Score: 2

      Or, if I blow up a bunch of cargo ships carrying spaceship parts...

      Actually, there should be some lag, until merchants find out what's happened, and the effect should expand gradually as the news spreads. And, that means you have a window of opportunity to buy up as much of those parts as you can before prices go up, assuming that you can get your instructions to your agents fast enough.

      --
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    5. Re:It's the big problem with space games by Calydor · · Score: 2

      Fast enough?

      "Guys, I'm blowing up five hundred transport ships with ship parts on Thursday. Get ready."

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    6. Re:It's the big problem with space games by Rockoon · · Score: 2

      Some stations consumed certain items to make others so over time their stock levels would drop and they would offer more and more money to restock.

      Yet the price of what those stations produced didnt reflect the prices of the raw materials needed, and stations making what should be large profits just swallow the money into oblivion, and when stations should be out of money they magically have an endless supply anyways.

      The elephant in the room is that its not an economy. In an economy the actors are each trying to benefit from their transactions, most transactions are wins for both parties, consequences when they aren't, motivation to eliminate losses, motivation to reinvest gains, and so on. Thats just not happening in these A.I. economies. Its not even close.

      Now, I am a firm believer in duck theory. It doesnt have to work at all like a real economy, all it has to do is look like it does. But again these games fail for the same reasons I pointed out above.

      The best simulated economy in a game that I am aware of was in Capitalism II released over 15 years ago, and even that had serious flaws, but at least the competing A.I. CEO's could go broke and tried not to.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    7. Re:It's the big problem with space games by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      Friday's board meeting: Umm, chaps, I don't really know how to put this. Plasmo-blasters, well, you know they aren't 100% reliable ...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:It's the big problem with space games by khallow · · Score: 2

      EVE is overrated - it's just a libertarian fantasy-land without any of the truly damaging human consequences.

      Congrats, you just described every computer game ever.

    9. Re:It's the big problem with space games by alvinrod · · Score: 2

      I'm not really sure what you mean, but the markets created by players tend to be better approximations of real markets than entirely AI markets and they can also drive game play and player interaction, all without requiring additional development effort.

      Let's use a simple example of crafting healing potions that are consumed by other players. If no one needs those potions, no one will buy them, so it's probably not as valuable to bother making them. But if they are used, the price will naturally increase as there's more demand than supply and so other players will be drawn to craft those potions. If the materials to make those are limited and also exist in the game world, you might have more contention over them and players fighting over them if the game allows PvP combat and the possibility of other players being paid to act as protection for these efforts or people harassing opposing factions or groups to prevent them from acquiring those resources.

      Games like EVE allow for that kind of result, which creates a type of game world that some players enjoy and it doesn't require large amounts of developer effort to create a functional AI driven economy or scripted game play that mimics the scenario above. I'm not sure how you can claim that the notion of the invisible hand doesn't work in games when there's a particularly good example of it working well. I can't think of any game I've played that as an entirely AI-driven economy that's come anywhere close to creating the same kind of experience you can get from EVE. The economy in that game is such a good approximation that they even had a massive ponzi scam several years ago.

    10. Re:It's the big problem with space games by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 2

      Yet the price of what those stations produced didnt reflect the prices of the raw materials needed, and stations making what should be large profits just swallow the money into oblivion, and when stations should be out of money they magically have an endless supply anyways.

      Yes, but I suspect that if you could actually do all that and make it real, then it wouldn't be any fun.

      The whole idea of a game is to win, to come out on top. There has to be a way to do that.

      In reality, most people can't do that. :)

  2. Bad Example by Carewolf · · Score: 3, Informative

    The economy is one of the very few real weak points of Witcher 3. The article doesn't explain in detail what he did, but whatever it was: Don't do that, unless you have an otherwise master-class game to outweigh your mistake.

    1. Re:Bad Example by crashumbc · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yeah, I felt the the economy is witcher 3 one of the few bad points of the game

      Witcher 3's "economy" basically consisted of kill shit, get extreme amount of loot, sell loot, have thousands of needed coins at end of game....

  3. Re:"Using math to tune a ... economy" by plover · · Score: 2

    Many big games hire actual economists to design and maintain a workable economy. They tweak things much like the Fed tweaks interest rates, in an attempt to keep the game interesting, and to deal with the occasional bugs that cause rampant inflation.

    --
    John
  4. Re:Well it's a step in the right direction by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yep, it annoys me a bit when at the beginning of a game, it costs a gold coin to stay a night at the inn at the beginning of the game, but it costs 100 gold coins at the end of the game in the "end game" areas. Granted, these are not games that are attempting any sort of "serious" world-building like Witcher 3. It still seems lazy, though - they should use other means for removing money from the player.

    I've also thought it somewhat lazy for developers to have a single coin type (typically "gold coins"). I've always thought that designers who resorted to that sort of currency never really understood how incredibly valuable a single gold coin actually is. Common goods are typically highly over-valued, and weapons and armor actually tend to be undervalued. It's ridiculous for a fish to cost 5 gold coins while a sword, even a basic starter sword, might only cost 100. Granted, I think most gamers don't really care about such things, but just once I'd like to see a videogame at least attempt to make a realistic stab at this.

    MMOs (particularly "theme park" types) have a particular problem with their economies, in that goods are essentially created from nothing in limitless supplies, and the final products from crafting last an infinitely long time. As such, they need to figure out how to create viable viable "gold sinks", or ways of removing money from the economy in ways that doesn't irritate the players too much. I've always thought that, no matter the solution they came up with, it always ended up feeling rather artificial (or simply inadequate), and it often ended in a massively inflationary economy.

    I'm still working my way through the first two Witcher games. As soon as I'm ready to play the third, I'll have to take some note of the general economy and see if it ended up as satisfying to play as one hopes.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  5. Re:Oh noes, not MATH?! by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2

    As a professional videogame programmer, I can assure you that it's fairly newsworthy when a game designer uses math to solve problems like these.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  6. Re:Oh noes, not MATH?! by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'm exaggerating a bit, as I was going for a humorous remark. So, killing the joke dead and answering your question seriously, yes, I've heard of Eve Online, and know quite a bit about it, but haven't played it. In terms of economies and designer math skills, MMOs are a slight exception. They take their in-game economies very seriously, and some are known to hire actual economists to help guide their virtual trade and monetary policies.

    Designers don't necessarily avoid math, but they often use it in ways that drives programmers insane. For instance, they'll use formulas in spreadsheets to calculate tables of figures for loot, armor, damage, etc, and then painstakingly enter all those figures by hand. Why? This allows them the freedom to individually tweak components as desired. Programmers look at this and shake their heads, because we're hardwired to avoid that sort of redundancy whenever possible. For whatever reasons, some designers seem to revel in it.

    Many designers tend to be control freaks. They're deathly afraid of automatic, feedback driven, or chaotic systems (all of which could apply to an economy), and often for good reason, as some outlier condition could tend to cause autonomous systems to spiral out of control. This is why most MMO in-world "economies" are tightly controlled affairs, with lots of limiters to prevent things from going too far in any particular direction too quickly. Programmers are always suggesting ways to create automatic and chaotic environments driven by algorithms, but designers want carefully scripted and planned systems, because they want to control and tweak it.

    From the description, it appears this designer only turned to math as a last resort, because there was simply no time to do the sort of hand-tweaking that designers typically do. They were impressed enough with the results (gosh, math actually works!) that they wrote about how they did it. And the programmers on the team are probably thinking "I told you so. In fact, I told you so years ago, and you only listened to me when your back was up against a wall."

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  7. Re:Well it's a step in the right direction by RogueyWon · · Score: 2

    Most modern MMOs don't have a real economy. EVE Online is a rare exception (and very much a niche proposition). Of the "normal" MMOs, then depending on who you talk to, Final Fantasy XI (released 2002 in Japan, 2003 in the West) or Star Wars Galaxies (2004) was the last to allow any significant degree of player freedom to shape the economy. Everything since World of Warcraft has locked in-game financial transactions down so hard that actual trading between players is knocked right out to the margins.

    What do I mean? Basically, that the items of highest value in most MMOs cannot be obtained through player-production and in-game trading. In a subscription MMO (eg. WoW, Final Fantasy XIV), the most powerful gear will normally be obtained by players through skill-based team challenges (high-end raiding or PvP). Once obtained by a player, it is almost always locked so as to be untradeable to other players. A second tier of good-but-not-best gear is usually available via a pseudo-currency (tokens, honour, whatever) that is rewarded in fixed proportions from performing repetitive activities (daily quests, dungeons etc), often with a cap on how much can be earned in a week, and which can't be traded to other players. Consumable items are still crafted and traded, but the trend in MMOs has been to downplay these over the last few years.

    This has largely come about due to the prevalence of real-money trading; people using real-world money to buy in-game currency. When the companies running MMOs realised that trying to crack down on this trade was like trying to wrestle with fog, some of them shifted their strategy to downplaying the importance of the in-game economy.

    The others, of course, went into the "freemium" pay-to-win model, whereby he who spends the most real-world money has the best stuff.

    What's interesting in the subscription MMOs is how the free market has acted to route-around the ever-tighter economic controls. You might not be able to buy the best gear, but in both WoW and Final Fantasy XIV, you can hire teams of players as "mercenaries" who will run you through the high-end content and guarantee you the items that drop. Blizzard don't like this, Square-Enix turn a blind eye. Various other types of grey-market activity have also sprung up around the margins to allow players to turn either in-game or real-world wealth into an advantage.

  8. Economy mismanagement is a huge risk for MMOs by azaris · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Magic Online, the digital version of the famous trading card game, is currently undergoing a kind of "economic recession". Basically, trading for cards is facilitated by event tickets (roughly $1 in value) and booster packs (containing 15 cards, roughly $4 in nominal value) that act as a digital currency. Events are entered using event tickets as payment and they pay out as booster packs to the most winning players. This is done to avoid gambling laws.

    What has happened is that number of players entering events has gone down while the amount of booster packs floating around has increased, so that the going price for booster packs has fallen to around 2 tickets (so $2 equivalent). This has made entering events unattractive for all but the top players, since the expected value of the prizes to win are now half of what they should be, while the entry fees remain the same. This further drove the number of players down, with many people selling their collections and leaving Magic Online.

    Several months ago Wizards of the Coast set up an "economy strike force" that supposedly consisted of several people with "advanced math degrees" to solve this conundrum of a depressed economy. They finally announced their "solution" some weeks ago. It was to double the entry fees and basically cut the prizes to 75% of the old one.

    The economy predictable tanked even harder, leading to more players selling out.