Slashdot Mirror


HTC Doesn't Protect Fingerprint Data

An anonymous reader writes: Biometric authentication is becoming commonplace — fingerprint scanners have been used on laptops for years, and now they're becoming commonplace on phones, as well. As more devices require your fingerprint to unlock, it becomes more important for each of them to guard that data. It's significant, then, that researchers from FireEye were able to easily grab fingerprint data off several recent phones. The most egregious offender is the HTC One Max, which stores the fingerprint comparison image as a simple .BMP file in a folder that's open to access. "Any unprivileged processes or apps can steal user's fingerprints by reading this file." According to the research they presented at Black Hat (PDF), it would also be simple for hackers who have remotely compromised the device to upload their own fingerprints to grant themselves physical access.

39 of 66 comments (clear)

  1. Amateurs by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 4, Funny

    The most egregious offender is the HTC One Max, which stores the fingerprint comparison image as a simple .BMP file in a folder that's open to access.

    What a bunch of amateurs. Everyone who's learned a thing or two about graphic file formats knows that PNG is much superior.

  2. Don't use this stuff ... by gstoddart · · Score: 2

    Even if we trusted that vendors weren't lazy, incompetent, and indifferent to security (and that is a big if) ... why should we be entrusting them with our biometric data in the first place?

    Corporations want to sell a product, sell advertising, and don't give a damn about your security or privacy. You should also assume they'll hand any of this crap over to governments if they demand it.

    Sorry, but until such time we get to use the CEO as a pinata for bad security, assume there simply is none. Because that's where we're at right now.

    With no penalties for crap security, they're not going to implement good security. Stop treating them as if they have.

    I'd wager that if you bought 20 products which claim to have security features, likely all 20 of them are easily defeated or bordering on non-existent in terms of actual security.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by macs4all · · Score: 5, Informative

      Corporations want to sell a product, sell advertising, and don't give a damn about your security or privacy. You should also assume they'll hand any of this crap over to governments if they demand it.

      Not all of them.

      For example, in iOS Devices, even the Device itself can't retrieve the biometric data. It is locked inside a "secure enclave" chip, that has ZERO exposure to the rest of the system.

      Neither Apple, nor anyone else, including the Gummint, can access that information without physically taking apart the Secure Enclave chip and using God-Knows-What to read the memory in the chip directly.

      Easier and cheaper to just to apply blowtorches and pliers to the actual fingerprint-holder, as per the obligatory XKCD 'toon.

    2. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by ComputerGeek01 · · Score: 2

      You should also assume they'll hand any of this crap over to governments if they demand it.

      Due to that child abduction prevention database that came to my school when I was a kid, and my inherent inability to keep my mouth shut when interacting with the police; the government already has several copies of my full fingerprint sets on file. I can safely assume that I'm not the only one that falls into a similar category so, I'm not to saying that your concern is invalid, it's simply redundant.

      The real question this brings up is "how secure is your fingerprint as a means of identification?". And the answer is half a million hits on Google for 'How to fake fingerprints'. This just goes to show the convenience is still inversely proportional to security.

    3. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      For example, in iOS Devices, even the Device itself can't retrieve the biometric data. It is locked inside a "secure enclave" chip, that has ZERO exposure to the rest of the system.

        Neither Apple, nor anyone else, including the Gummint, can access that information without physically taking apart the Secure Enclave chip and using God-Knows-What to read the memory in the chip directly.

      Even harder, in iOS, the fingerprint reader traffic is encrypted, and the reader and secure enclave do a public-private key thing to keep the fingerprint secure.

      So not only is the information in the secure enclave, but it's traffic is secured by the hardware. Two reasons - one, to prevent sniffing, and the other, to prevent malware from commandeering the fingerprint reader.

    4. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by Dixie_Flatline · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I haven't heard of anyone cracking it yet, and that's the sort of thing you'd hear about immediately if it happened. Breaking into an Apple device comes with a lot of press and noise. It's something we'd all know about if it'd happened. We immediately heard about how the security of the device was 'compromised' if you had access to a lab, a really incredibly clear picture of a finger print, and more time on your hands than your average criminal would be willing to expend.

      Based on that, I feel reasonably confident that there's been no breach of security of the secure enclave.

      But even if there were, this theoretical setup of Apple's is an indication that someone that thinks about security was involved in the development. There's no image. There's not really even useful data being stored, per se. You put your finger on the sensor and it creates a cryptographic hash from your fingerprint data, and every time you want to unlock the phone, it goes through the process again and compares it against the data it has stored. It's not even clear to me that if you had what was in the enclave that you could unlock the phone with it. (Someone that understands the tech better than me can correct me.)

    5. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by macs4all · · Score: 1

      And you believe this shit they spew?

      Why yes. Yes I do. At least generally, and certainly about this particular subject.

      Where's our open source / standard video conferencing protocol? If you're saying that some company sued them to prevent their use...

      See? You answered your own objection. That was easy...

      Remember when they sold LTE tablets in the UK that couldn't be used in the UK (it had US bands at the time)?

      Nope. Never heard of that. According to your own words, you must've been the only one butt-hurt about that, apparently.

    6. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Even harder, in iOS, the fingerprint reader traffic is encrypted, and the reader and secure enclave do a public-private key thing to keep the fingerprint secure.

      So not only is the information in the secure enclave, but it's traffic is secured by the hardware. Two reasons - one, to prevent sniffing, and the other, to prevent malware from commandeering the fingerprint reader.

      You're right. I'd forgotten about those details.

    7. Re: Don't use this stuff ... by Quila · · Score: 1

      Last I read, the fingerprint system submits the numerical representation of the fingerprint to the Trusted Enclave, which responds with match or no match. You don't get to see existing fingerprint data.

    8. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by ComputerGeek01 · · Score: 1

      So you're saying "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", and that we should all accept a surveillance society because you've already been arrested.

      Not even close, I'm saying that the information that GP was trying to protect is likely to already be on record. I can't wish away that they already have my fingerprints, that's just a fact that I and many others need to live with.

    9. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Not that it really matters, and the damned things aren't very accurate or secure anyway.

      That myth was busted on Mythbusters a number of years ago, and the technology hasn't really changed significantly since.

    10. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Lonny Eachus' comment was a remark about the logical fallacy of Caldeira's statement that "no amount" of CO2 emission is safe or acceptable, when he emits a rather large amount all by himself.

      No SANE, rational person could read it in context, and honestly think it was a call for anybody to actually commit suicide.

      You can't even get this right. What a loser.

    11. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Well, do you truly understand that EPA's proposed regulations (truly, no joke) declare your body a toxic polluter? Because you exhale 40,000 ppm CO2. [Lonny Eachus, 2014-10-27]

      The EPA does not distinguish among sources, or whether it is "circulation". Emission is emission. Emission from vehicles burning ethanol is also "circulation", via a very real and rather simple cycle, yet EPA still classes it as emission. So you are wrong in principle and fact.

      Apparently Lonny is still pretending to be confused about the fact that breathing is like the circulation pump in a pool. It simply can't raise CO2 levels.

      Apparently you are confused about context. As usual.

    12. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      I'm not going to argue with you on Slashdot about somebody's comments on Twitter.

      I will say that people make mistakes. Like the time you claimed (as shown in one of your links above) that the Wegman report wasn't peer-reviewed. The report had been reviewed by no less than 6 other professional statisticians with no axe to grind, before it was presented.

      I do not, at this time, think Rahmstorf is a criminal in any legal sense. I do think that using graphs that are created to mislead in order to press an agenda is "criminal" in the sense of "harmful to society", apart from the law. But I'm not about to say here that was what Rahmstorf did. I didn't read his mind.

    13. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      No, Lonny. Your despicable statement was morally and scientifically wrong. He doesn't emit "a rather large amount all by himself" because breathing simply can't raise CO2 levels.

      This is a CLASSIC straw-man argument. There was no claim that he raised CO2 levels. Only that he emits CO2. He does.

      emit v. to send forth (liquid, light, heat, sound, particles, etc.); discharge.

      There is nothing there about "increasing levels" or averages. Everbody knows what "emit" means, regardless of your attempts to narrow the definition to your liking. He does emit a rather large amount by himself, according to every common definition of the word "emit". As I illustrated above, CO2 from exhaust pipes from burning ethanol derived from organic sources goes through a very similar cycle to what you described, yet nobody denies that the CO2 coming out of the exhaust pipe is an "emission".

      Lonny Eachus, please support your ridiculous accusation that the EPA declares your body a toxic polluter because you exhale 40,000 ppm CO2. You know, with a quote from an actual link.

      There was no "accusation" that EPA declares bodies toxic polluters. 1. Straw-man. 2. Moving the goalposts. Such statement doesn't exist.

      Until you provide a quote from an actual link it just seems like you're projecting your ignorance onto yet another organization.

      So, you have evidence to refute the statement? You are free to ignore it if you like, but I flatly deny making the statements you claim in this comment, so I have nothing to prove.

      Wow! Lonny Eachus, I just gave you an effective defense and you rejected it! You might have a chance if you swear you were just confused about how breathing can't raise CO2 levels, and only said this out of confusion: "@KenCaldeira should commit suicide immediately. He emits 40,000 ppm CO2."

      There is no need for a defense, since this comment was clearly taken out of context and subsequently misrepresented. Anyone who cares to look can see that for themselves.

    14. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Jane, in less than an hour you changed from defending "Lonny Eachus' comment" to defending your comment! Are you actually such a pathological liar that you really think you can just shrug off your libelous attacks by saying they were "somebody's comments on Twitter"?

      You haven't shown that any of my comments were intentionally libelous. I have already stated to you many times that I am not commenting to you about identity. I make no claims or denials... nor do I have any reason to do so.

      But "pathological liar"? That's a libelous statement if I've ever seen one.

      You have repeatedly (actually quite consistently, over a period of years) failed to demonstrate that I have intentionally lied about anything. Therefore you have excellent evidence that your frequent claims and insinuations that I am a "pathological liar" are false and libelous.

      Your accusations are wrong in every way, not just in a legal sense. The graphs you're endlessly whining about aren't misleading. And you don't need to read anyone's mind to see that your absurd accusations were already disproved over a decade ago by the very paper you're lecturing about!

      Excuse me? What accusation did I make in my previous comment above? I don't see one. And you continue to present comments out of context.

      What is your problem? Why do you refuse to make honest arguments? While again I am not making accusations, but I am certainly beginning to think that this whole "pathological liar" bit is nothing but projection on your part.

      No. I'll be honest. I'm not "beginning" to think it. I've been thinking it for a very long time.

    15. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by khayman80 · · Score: 1

      Honest people can be wrong or disagree.Ur claim I'm lying about Ru Academy leaders opposing AGW indicates more about U than me? U've exposed the level discussion to which GWarming advocates sink. Yep, pretty sad labeling some who disagrees a liar. Not wrong, but even if I was, only Fanatics claim people who believe in what they R advocating R liars if they R wrong. I don't lose my temper & I don't call people who disagree liars. The way U disagree consistent with most GWarming advocates [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), August 2015]

      That's unbelievably ironic, coming from a man who's been hurling accusations like lying lying lies lies lies lies lied lied lied lied lied lied lied lied lie dishonest dishonest dishonest dishonest dishonest dishonesty dishonesty dishonesty fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud

    16. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by khayman80 · · Score: 1

      Oops, forgot the ellipses:

      Honest people can be wrong or disagree.Ur claim I'm lying about Ru Academy leaders opposing AGW indicates more about U than me? ... U've exposed the level discussion to which GWarming advocates sink. Yep, pretty sad labeling some who disagrees a liar. ... Not wrong, but even if I was, only Fanatics claim people who believe in what they R advocating R liars if they R wrong. ... I don't lose my temper & I don't call people who disagree liars. The way U disagree consistent with most GWarming advocates [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), August 2015]

      That's unbelievably ironic, coming from a man who's been hurling accusations like lying lying lies lies lies lies lied lied lied lied lied lied lied lied lie dishonest dishonest dishonest dishonest dishonest dishonesty dishonesty dishonesty fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud fraud

    17. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by khayman80 · · Score: 1

      Fixed the first fraud link.

    18. Re:Don't use this stuff ... by khayman80 · · Score: 1

      Continued here.

  3. That's the great thing about biometrics by metamatic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All the affected people have to do is change their fingerprints.

    --
    GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
  4. upload their own fingerprints??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In related news, a burglar was arrested because he left an ID card in the house...

  5. It doesn't matter by Beamer145 · · Score: 1

    Fingerprints are Usernames, not Passwords. Using them as passwords is bad practice anyway .

  6. Now compare this to Apple's approach by nbvb · · Score: 4, Informative

    I know that it's all the rage to crap on Apple, but compare this "approach" to security vs Apple's approach ...

    https://www.apple.com/business...

    Apple isn't perfect by any means but at least they put the time and energy into actually trying to do the right things. They make mistakes - like everyone else - but at least there's some forethought.

    1. Re:Now compare this to Apple's approach by nbvb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The difference between making a piece of hardware and making the whole widget.

      I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to identify which approach I prefer.

  7. Re:on page 2 by Minwee · · Score: 1

    And I'm sure that every affected device has already been updated, in accordance with HTC's proactive support policies.

    Since it has been patched, I'm also sure that there will never be any kind of mysterious regression where a future build exhibits the same issue. That could never happen.

    Nothing more to see here, just move along.

  8. Things you know, have and are by sjbe · · Score: 2

    Fingerprints are Usernames, not Passwords. Using them as passwords is bad practice anyway .

    Fingerprints are not usernames nor are they passwords. Security comes from having Things-You-Are, Things-You-Have, and Things-You-Know. Good security typically involves at least two of those Things if not all three. No security is unbreakable. Both usernames and passwords fall into the Things-You-Know which is why they are relatively easy to crack. This is why two factor authentication is a good idea because it generally relies on both a Thing-You-Know and a Thing-You-Have. Fingerprints are a Thing-You-Are though if not secured can become a Thing-You-Know/Have. At times they can be used like a username or a password but they are not the same thing and assuming they are the same thing is generally a mistake.

    The biggest problem with Things-You-Are is also the biggest strength. Things-You-Are are generally the hardest to forge or circumvent but when they are they cannot be changed unlike Things-You-Have or Things-You-Know. So you don't want to use Things-You-Are too much.

  9. Re:on page 2 by mlts · · Score: 2

    Wonder what the patch is:

    The ideal would be to not use a bitmap, but store some type of hash with a salt, as well as a part of the hashed value coming from a secure key store, for example sha3 (regular_nonce + fingerprint bitmap + nonce_stashed_in_secure_storage) . This means that if the hash was pulled off the phone, there is no way that it would be usable on other media.

    If the bitmap -had- to be decrypted, again, it should be either encrypted and the key stashed in a protected part of the system, or at the minimum, encrypted by the user's PIN/password that is used when the device is first unlocked after a reboot.

  10. Repeat after me: Fingerprints are not secrets by swillden · · Score: 2

    I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of biometrics and biometric security that is prevalent throughout much of the industry, and it's often expressed as "biometrics are identifiers, not passwords!", though usually with more exclamation points, or the verbal equivalent, except when the even more foolish version "biometrics are passwords" is used.

    These statements are wrong. Biometrics are not identifiers. They're lousy identifiers, actually, since identifiers need to be unique and consistent, while biometrics aren't either. Biometrics are also not passwords. Passwords rely on secrecy and need to be rotated. Biometrics are not secret and cannot be rotated.

    But, if biometrics don't fit into either of these buckets we're accustomed to, if they're not usernames and not passwords doesn't that mean they're useless? No, it does not.

    Biometrics are authenticators. Passwords are also authenticators, but they operate on different principles, validating information that is expected to be a secret. Biometrics attempt to validate the presence of a physical body that is the one expected. What's funny about this to me is that humans, in general, are extremely comfortable with biometric identification and authentication because it's the way we identify and authenticate everyone around us all the time. But we've trained ourselves to think differently about these issues in the context of computer security. (Note that personal identification is considered the best form of authentication in physical security systems as well... the biometric auth systems built into our heads are extremely hard to fool at close range with more than a few seconds' interaction).

    Biometric authentication provides security without relying on the secrecy of your fingerprints, because they aren't. You leave them everywhere you go all over everything you touch. Including, by the way, your phone. They provide security because it is supposed to be hard for anyone else to use your fingerprints, even if they know exactly what they look like, to unlock your phone. That is, the security comes from the meat/sensor interface, not from the content of the data delivered via that interface.

    This fact points out some rather obvious potential exploits. Since making gummy fingers isn't particularly hard, and since phone sensors aren't very good at distinguishing between real fingers and fake fingers, the security level isn't very high against an attacker who is willing to go to the effort of lifting a print and making a fake finger. It's also not good against an attacker willing to crack the phone open and replay image data directly to the system, bypassing the sensor.

    Fingerprints provide a very different security model than passwords. They're stronger against casual attackers (can't be shoulder surfed; often hard to phish), but potentially weaker against more sophisticated attackers, and don't rely on secrecy.

    With this proper contextualization, it's clear that the "attacks" referenced in the article are non-issues. Leaking your fingerprints isn't a security problem, it's a privacy problem. Fingerprints are like any other PII (personally-identifiable information) on your phone. The device should secure PII against remote extraction, and should make it reasonably hard for local attackers to get. But when the attack begins with, step 1, "root the device", I just tune out, because of all of the PII on my phone, my fingerprints are among the least important.

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    1. Re:Repeat after me: Fingerprints are not secrets by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Passwords rely on secrecy and need to be rotated.

      Why do passwords need to be rotated? I have read lots of things saying that you should but never seen a compelling argument. All of the reasons for rotating passwords are more appropriately handled by changing password immediately. Rotating passwords happens regardless of an incident, which is wasteful, and only ensures that somebody locks up after the horse has left the barn.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    2. Re:Repeat after me: Fingerprints are not secrets by swillden · · Score: 1

      Passwords rely on secrecy and need to be rotated.

      Why do passwords need to be rotated? I have read lots of things saying that you should but never seen a compelling argument.

      The longer you keep a password, the more likely it is that it has been compromised in some way. Rotating it closes the window of vulnerability.

      All of the reasons for rotating passwords are more appropriately handled by changing password immediately. Rotating passwords happens regardless of an incident, which is wasteful, and only ensures that somebody locks up after the horse has left the barn.

      You're assuming that you have some indication that your password is compromised. You may not, which means the barn won't get locked. Unlike the horse/barn analogy, there is often value in locking up even after the attacker has been in.

      With that said, if you have a decent password and reasonably-good password security habits (e.g. don't use it on multiple systems), I don't think there's any need to rotate your password more than annually.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    3. Re:Repeat after me: Fingerprints are not secrets by swillden · · Score: 1

      The best solution is not to have so many passwords. Single sign-on (SSO) should be able to consolidate many of them. For the rest, most are probably fairly low-value, and needn't be rotated.

      Personally I have one password for work and another for my personal e-mail account that I consider really high value and rotate annually (I also use two-factor auth on both of those). I also rotate my password manager password annually. Then I have a second tier of important passwords (bank, etc.). Those I don't rotate regularly, but I do generate long, random, non-memorable passwords for them and keep them in my password manager. At any hint of strangeness, I change them, and I change them all every two or three years.

      Then I have a couple of passwords I use on all the sites I don't care about (like slashdot). I would have only one password for all of those sites, but they don't all agree on password requirements.

      If your company hasn't got a decent SSO system deployed, or if you work on systems belonging to a lot of different clients, or for some other reason have no way to consolidate your important logins, I don't have any good suggestions for you.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  11. Re:Security Alert by TWX · · Score: 1

    The blue nitrile gloves aren't durable enough, you'll tear the glove and leave fingerprints anyway.

    You're better off with the heavy duty black nitrile gloves. Just be sure to stock up on talcum powder so your hands don't look like they've been soaking in dishwater for four hours.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  12. Biometrics by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

    Biometric data is *NOT SECRET* and never has been. The idea isn't "nobody has access to your fingerprints", it's "if you control the device, and can monitor the person attempting to access the device, you can easily detect attempts to use someone else's data"

    eg: Yes, your fingerprint reader can be defeated by the person holding a photocopy of someone else's hand. If you leave them alone with the device, they can also defeat it by pulling the back cover off, so that's not particularly an issue.

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  13. Re:Finger Prints - the ID you leave everywhere you by TWX · · Score: 1

    Honestly, given the dollar amount that one can spend in big-box retailers that happen to have grocery store departments, if one could pay with a fingerprint it wouldn't be unreasonable to make a practical special effects finger with a fingerprint on it that would pass under normal scrutiny. If such were to develop I could see someone going in and buying the high-end television, the home theatre receiver, the speakers, the tablet computer, and some bread, milk, cereal, fresh fruit, and beer in one trip...

    Normally one needs to use a two-fold method. Think username and password. Think ATM card and PIN. Something you have, and something you know.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  14. Re:on page 2 by Fnord666 · · Score: 1

    And I'm sure that every affected device has already been updated, in accordance with HTC's proactive support policies.

    Since it has been patched, I'm also sure that there will never be any kind of mysterious regression where a future build exhibits the same issue. That could never happen.

    Nothing more to see here, just move along.

    hmmm. The sarcasm is strong with this one....

    --
    'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
  15. The biggest problem with fingerprint security... by mark-t · · Score: 1

    ... is that you don't generally have any real ability to limit anyone else from collecting your fingerprints without wearing gloves everywhere... and if you are even *suspected* of a crime, you have no legal right at all to refuse to be fingerprinted by law enforcement (if you are acquitted, you can usually request that the information be destroyed, however, YMMV on this, depending on the jurisdiction). At least with passwords, you can simply refuse to divulge them. Some jurisdictions may throw a person in prison for not divulging a password, but of course, they still don't get the password by doing so, and are ultimately just keeping someone in prison at the taxpayer's expense that they won't necessarily get anything out of. While you won't necessarily be thrown in prison for refusing to give your fingerprints, that's only because law enforcement is authorized to use reasonable force to take fingerprints without your consent anyways.

  16. Re:Security Alert by davester666 · · Score: 1

    and of course, destroy the gloves after use.

    --
    Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  17. Rep. Rohrabacher accuses scientists of lying. by khayman80 · · Score: 1

    so where is the example of me calling someone a liar? questioning facts & logic is honest disagreement U should try that approach [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), 2015-08-24]

    I've repeatedly showed Dana links to his incredibly ironic accusations of dishonest lying fraud. Here are just a few:

    whoever gave U the 97 percent scientists endorsing Man made Global warming theory is lying 2 U. [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), 2013-07-05]

    97% is fake number & reflects dishonesty of those giving U info on GWarming. ask Urself what process used 2determine it [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), 2013-09-15]

    James Taylor's Forbes oped 5/30/13 detailed blatant fraud behind 97 claim yet alarmists R so brazen they keep using it [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), 2013-09-16]

    That figure is a total fraud. U may not know where it came from but I do. In the end it was 97% of 87 selected scientists. [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), 2014-03-26]

    who ever told U that is the same one pushing the lie. I have read full account & 97% is fraud, other GWarming evidence [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), 2014-03-28]

    If U knew fraud behind that 97% number surely U'd quit using it. ... fess up that the 97% figure is the percent of the few scientists who responded to a poll that was itself selectively sent.FRAUD ... the 97 % figure you use is a total fraud, just like the rest of the phony evidence of man made Global Warming [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), 2014-04-01]

    97% figure is just as much a fraud as GWarming theory. Some times U should question what this crowd is feeding U [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), 2014-04-04]

    major figures refuse to support 97% claim. That should tip U off as to lies that many advocates of GWarming support [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), 2014-06-05]

    ... it is a lie to say 97% agree [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), 2014-06-27]

    CO2 theory is fraud [Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), 2015-01-12]

    It's especially ironic that Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) has spent years accusing scientists of lying dishonest fraud when scientists tell him what scientists think.

    Does Rep. Rohrabacher also accuse surgeons of lying dishonest fraud when surgeons tell him what surgeons think? Or does Rep. Rohrabacher realize that surgeons probably know what surgeons think better than he does?