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The NSA's Philosopher

An anonymous reader writes: In 2012, the NSA decided it needed an in-house ethicist to write about the philosophy of surveillance. They searched within the organization for a candidate, finally giving the job to an analyst who had abandoned a writing career that hadn't worked out. The Intercept got its hands on some of his work: "The columns answer a sociological curiosity: How does working at an intelligence agency turn a privacy hawk into a prophet of eavesdropping?" At one point, the analyst wrote, "We probably all have something we know a lot about that is being handled at a higher level in a manner we're not entirely happy about. This can cause great cognitive dissonance for us, because we may feel our work is being used to help the government follow a policy we feel is bad." The article analyzes this man in detail, including his life history and his personal blog — it's a strange coupling of invasiveness and anonymization, for they take steps to avoid revealing his identity. The article's author correctly notes (while the NSA does not) that surveilling somebody doesn't mean you really know them.

95 comments

  1. Spying on the spies by The+Real+Dr+John · · Score: 1

    I love this story.

    --
    A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
  2. Easy by StikyPad · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's called rationalizing, and anyone can do it. First, do whatever you want. Next, come up with a justification. As long as you act first and justify second, you're doing it right! Under no circumstances should you reverse the order of operations, you you may end up actually behaving ethically.

    1. Re:Easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Man is not a rational animal - man is a rationalising animal.

      The easy bit is seeing this in other people. The hard bit is accepting it of yourself.

    2. Re:Easy by khasim · · Score: 2

      Even easier ... make someone's paycheck dependant them supporting X.

      Most people will happily compromise whatever ethics/morality they CLAIM to have if it means getting paid to do so.

    3. Re:Easy by Kjella · · Score: 2

      It's called rationalizing, and anyone can do it. First, do whatever you want. Next, come up with a justification. As long as you act first and justify second, you're doing it right! Under no circumstances should you reverse the order of operations, you you may end up actually behaving ethically.

      No, the opposite is just called "The ends justifies the means" where you get a free pass to do anything for the greater good. That's how you can nuke Hiroshima and still sleep at night. Probably how Nazi death camp staff thought about gas chambers and the Jews too. No doubt many at the NSA feel invading everyone's privacy is for the greater good, even though they'd vehemently oppose China or Russia doing the same to them. But the NSA are the good guys so what they do is good, if the bad guys do the same it's bad. There's no ethical problem that moral relativity can't solve.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    4. Re:Easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called rationalizing, and anyone can do it. First, do whatever you want. Next, come up with a justification. As long as you act first and justify second, you're doing it right! Under no circumstances should you reverse the order of operations, you you may end up actually behaving ethically.

      "He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."

    5. Re:Easy by LessThanObvious · · Score: 1

      He was tasked with creating internal propaganda and he did an excellent job of that. The NSA doesn't want its workers to suffer bad moral or be forced to question the ethics of the orders they carry out.

  3. Third post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Eat it neckbeard cocksuckers

  4. Why didn't they call Cold Fjord? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't believe it man !

    Those of us who are familiar with Slashdot knows that our resident NSA fanboi the famous Mr. Cold Fjord is perfect for the job. Why the hell NSA didn't give Mr. Cold Fjord a call??

    Captha: indexed

    1. Re:Why didn't they call Cold Fjord? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Captha: Butt-hurt

      FTFY! :D

  5. They used it for spying on spouses ffs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Years of reports for the President’s Intelligence Oversight Board show NSA analysts were caught mishandling surveillance data and spying on people through their job. Analysts with the National Security Agency have been abusing surveillance data to spy on significant others and spouses for more than a decade, heavily redacted government documents show.

    And now they want to convince us they are "ethical"? Never mind the legality of it.

    1. Re:They used it for spying on spouses ffs! by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      But how are you going to know whether your spouse is a Soviet agent if you don't spy on them?

    2. Re:They used it for spying on spouses ffs! by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      At a certain level local federal law enforcement will interview and walk the life of a cleared official.
      People with no real past or roots in a nation tend to stand out after sit down interviews with friends, family and all teachers.
      If all you have is a vast domestic SIGINT collection bureaucracy then case studies, projections would always show all Soviet agents in the USA always slip up while using phone, email, fax and routinely book expensive online travel to other international countries.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:They used it for spying on spouses ffs! by pegdhcp · · Score: 1

      routinely book expensive online travel to other international countries.

      Just out of curiosity, how a travel to another county can be not-international??

    4. Re: They used it for spying on spouses ffs! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When it's a protectorate.

      See the U.S. Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico. still the U.S. but you must do customs and in the case of USVI they require a passport now.

  6. His argument makes a tiny bit of sense .. by ahodgson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you assume the people watching are in fact the good guys and bear you no ill will and will never misuse their knowledge or incompetently leak it to others.

    If, on the other hand, they happen to be human beings, who will inevitably abuse their power, then maybe not so much.

    1. Re: His argument makes a tiny bit of sense .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that even if they're good guys now, it doesn't mean they'll be good guys always. Imagine we gave this kind of power to the administration prior to the ones which saw the McCarthy communist witch hunters. Godwin be damned, imagine if the nazis inherited this technology and power from their Weimar predecessors. Things might have been hopeless.

  7. No shit. by jcr · · Score: 3, Funny

    surveilling somebody doesn't mean you really know them.

    and fucking somebody doesn't mean you love them.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  8. The "Gay Precedent" by TheCarp · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There is a rule in politics that I always agreed with. You don't bring the other guys sexuality into it, unless it makes him an actual hypocrite by his policy. So you don't mention a man is gay, even if he is, unless he comes out and gives a speech about how gays belong in prison. Makes sense right?

    well.... This man argues everyone should be transparent.... I feel the author made a mistake in not doxing him completely and releasing his full name and phone number.

    I hate this man, but maybe its just because I don't know EVERYTHING about him. Clearly he needs to be helped by releasing that information so I can come to understand him as a real human and not a threat to my privacy.

    This is one of the few cases where doxing is not only justified, but, the moral imperative!

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    1. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow you really must have put a lot of thought into that one. Were you trying to be ironic or was it just a side effect of not having anything meaningful to say?

      Clearly he should have used an emoji to help you out. ;^(

    2. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      I was trying to argue for why he should have been doxed. Which, is my honest opinion on the matter. People like him deserve it for what they choose to do with their lives. In fact, deserve it specifically, its not something I would wish on most anyone else.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    3. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Emoji guy here. Thanks for the clarification. What threw me was your comment "maybe its just because I don't know EVERYTHING about him". My sarcasm meter was going off the charts because you can never know everything about anyone. I do agree we you that he should have been doxed.

    4. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not TheCarp, but as I saw his/her argument, I thought:

      Maybe an NSA agent touched his privacy when he was a little kid, and now thanks to the cycle of abuse, he just can't help it. But we don't know that right now, so clearly we need to know everything so that we can make a decision if this person is just an asshole, or if there's some event or mental problem that excuses his behavior so we can feel bad for him.

    5. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On that same note, were you just unlucky this time, or are you always a bit daft when reading posts?

    6. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      It's trivial. The article has enough specific info to locate the guys blog very easily.

    7. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      Yes, the hypocrisy is the most stunning thing about this guys position. His rationalisation for SIGINT was "if the state knows everything, they'll see that you're truly a good person", where the word good should of course actually read loyal.

      But then when a journalist contacts him and offers to let the world get to know him much better, he suddenly decides he likes his privacy and anonymity after all.

      I wonder if he feels the cognitive dissonance at all. Probably not.

      Well, can't have it both ways. I agree - they should have doxxed him. And if/when random strangers turn up outside his house, follow his wife and kids around, and constantly force him to justify his life .... he can't complain. What goes around comes around.

    8. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      Yes, the hypocrisy is the most stunning thing about this guys position. His rationalisation for SIGINT was "if the state knows everything, they'll see that you're truly a good person", where the word good should of course actually read loyal.

      "Socrates" describes himself as a libertarian. Bemoans that he can not just load up his family in a wagon and head out for the prairie. Confesses to guilt/confusion when watching his superiors "misuse" his surveillance product. Then tells the entire, internal NSA audience that they just have suck up the cognitive dissonance and trust that their superiors know what they're doing (or at least that everything will work out in the end).

      His whole life seems to be built around justifying his whims. The story about the failed polygraph perhaps best of all: "the needle jumped" on certain questions, and he's sure that, if he could just give the interrogator a longer explanation, then the interrogator would understand that he's really done nothing wrong (completely independent of whether he actually has done anything wrong). This mindset is exactly why you should never talk to the police. It's why Jamie Lee Hood thought he could get a jury to set him free, essentially by claiming the cop he shot initiated the aggression.

      Well, can't have it both ways. I agree - they should have doxxed him. And if/when random strangers turn up outside his house, follow his wife and kids around, and constantly force him to justify his life .... he can't complain.

      "Socrates" is an idiot, content to follow orders while fantasizing about life as a rugged individualist. Lots of us are like that. He doesn't deserve to be made a target for all the other nutbags out there.

    9. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the subtext. The brilliance of this article was the manner in which the author doxxed him without doxxing him. The author can wash his hands, "what, me dox a non-criminal public servant? Guy just trying to live his life and do his job? Heavens no." But the entire time going on and on with specifics of him, his location, his wife, his family, his interests, his education, his career(s)...it would be absolutely trivial to dox this man. I bet I could do it in under and hour (I won't, though).

      It was a brilliant article. He flayed the man, but leaves his fate in the hands of you, dear reader. And now, what do you do when your well-being, safety, security, privacy, and employment are in the hands of an amorphous blob of varied interests, non of which coincide with yours? Shoes, feet, swords, living, dying, etc etc.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    10. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok... let's say the guy's name is "Sum Dum Fuk" - now what? We are not allowed to tar and feather the guy like he so richly deserves, so whatchya gonna do about it? We can compile a list of immoral assholes on the web, but pretty soon his name would be drowned out by tens of thousands of others and he's anonymous again.

      The problem is not this totalitarian twit - it's the system that exists that requires them.

    11. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      You know I fully agree with you, but you also have to consider the...ehm.... meta game.

      Some totalitarian nitwit at the NSA is going to have to follow these stories and comments, about them and has to read rants by people either calling for how they deserve it, like me, or reading backhanded insulting defenses, like yours.

      All in all, its just win all over.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    12. Re:The "Gay Precedent" by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      Well for a meta-monkey I have no meta-game. Carry on, sir.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
  9. Politically Applied Augustinianism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    66 Since all are guilty before YHWH of sin, it stands to reason that all are guilty before the state of one or more crimes. 99

    Anyone who is regarded in our time as modern, educated and enlightened has no choice but to dismiss a priori the first part. Nowadays, some other justification is supplied to support the second part.

    When the Transcendent is dismissed, man becomes deity, body becomes soul, time becomes eternity. All higher dimensions collapse to eleven or perhaps only four. STEMC (space, time, matter, energy and chance) come to define reality. Now, you college graduates, get out there and slaughter tens of millions more. You can't disappoint your inspirations, such as Marx, Darwin, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hit[GODWIN! GODWIN! WHOOP! WHOOP!...]

  10. A fatal flaw by loose_cannon_gamer · · Score: 0

    A fascinating read. Thanks for sharing.

    I do believe that having more information will allow for a more accurate analysis of why people behave the way they do, that is, their motivations.

    However, I am not sure that all of the observable facts in the universe about an individual will be sufficient to completely predict motivation and behavior. People are complicated - the older I get, the more introspective I get, the more I pick at and analyze and assess my own actions, the more frequently I find that I do not have clear reasons for what I do - and I learn things about myself. If I have trouble figuring out why I do what I do, how could an outsider - one who does not possess the same set of biases that I have developed myself, via my own life, choices, experiments and education - ever hope to understand me so well as to correctly declare my motivations and predict my future behavior?

    But then, to restate my first claim, more information will yield better accuracy. But can everything the NSA, or google, collect about me ever be enough?

    Surveillance as a topic overall is interesting because it is so resistant to black-and-white rule setting - context is everything. Now I have something to think about on my afternoon walk. :)

    --
    In Soviet Russia, us are belong to all your base.
    1. Re:A fatal flaw by PPH · · Score: 1

      I do believe that having more information will allow for a more accurate analysis of why people behave the way they do, that is, their motivations.

      Except that Mr. Socrates admits to "being loyal to a fault" and "I try to be a good lieutenant and good civil servant of even the policies I think are misguided." So you can read all you want into his beliefs and morals. But in the end, what he does is what he was ordered to do. Ultimately, knowing him intimately is pointless if you don't know who is behind the curtain pulling the levers.

      Most of the world runs this way. The guy turning the valve on the ovens at Auschwitz was "just following orders". The ultimate motivation to having extensive dossiers on your people is to gain leverage over them, should they appear hesitant to turn that valve. This is more important in a 'free society' such as ours than in a totalitarian state where the consequences of not following orders can be severe. And no matter what kind of government one lives under, eventually they all start to believe that their mission is more important than the values of its individuals. So they all need valve-turners.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:A fatal flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do believe that having more information will allow for a more accurate analysis of why people behave the way they do, that is, their motivations.

      To me this is something that is extremely flawed, thinking that there is a way to analyze aberrant social behavior and find a "root cause" and apply a "fix".

      Perhaps some serial murderer obsessed over baseball cards, does that mean baseball cards are responsible for the individuals extraordinary actions?

      If done in a scientific way it might work (like the retroactive discovery of a possible link between leaded gasoline and violent behavior), but that's not what happens, what happens is profiles are built and then applied to people who haven't done anything in the hope that they might.

      it's almost like gambling, you employ people and spend money to surveil a profile group with the hope that one of them might do something and then jump all over them, ideally for public safety but more likely to get more money and keep people employed. The upshot is that you can claim that since you have an eye on this profile group and nothing happens your programs are working (much like how my lion-repellent rock works)

      The thing I don't get is if all this machinery is in place and functioning to keep people safe why does it seem like there still so many nutjobs that get through the net? Is it that they "Didn't fit the profile" or "We were tracking their activities but did nothing"?

      I'm not a panicky person, but I feel I have more and more to fear from the people that claim to be protecting me than the extremely small chance I might be invoked with some random, potentially deadly event

    3. Re: A fatal flaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come on, when they wrote Magna Charta, they already had exactly the same problems. And they already found the solution: Limits on what the King (these days also the President and his NSA CIA FBI troops) can do. Why do we have independent attorneys and independent jurys in some countries ?

      Exactly because the power of the King must be LIMITED. Sigint has become something like a 100 billion dollar business. That translates into something like 500000 jobs. From E Systems to some NSA bookeeper and quite a few high ranking officers in between. Those folks simply want a mandate which is as expansive as possible or some of those 500k people will lose their cushy job.

      Its all about money, as they say.

      And the Mohammedanic terror is an excellent tool to justify their bloated industry. Then NSA-GCHQ overlords will actually DANCE WITH WAHABISTS, because these folks have so much MONEY. Now, that looks simply VERY ROTTEN.

      Yeah, I know I am shouting. Because it is appropriate here.

    4. Re:A fatal flaw by qwijibo · · Score: 2

      Indeed, more information *can* yield a clearer picture of the event, situation, etc.

      However, more data also simplifies the job of cherry picking data points to prove some totally random theory.

      Hope drives the former, while laziness drives the latter.

      Anything you say can *and* will be used against you in a court of law (except in cases where you're exempt from the extra paperwork of courts). That takes on a more ominous tone when you can't control the massive volume of data being collected and generated about everything you ever do.

    5. Re:A fatal flaw by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      Do you hear what you are saying? You are saying the people who work as NSA are the same as those at Auschwitz who killed masses of people.

    6. Re: A fatal flaw by VikingNation · · Score: 2

      Let's talk about the limits for a second. Folks are upset by activities that were 1) authorized by Congress, 2) had oversight by the executive branch of the US government (White House, Department of Justice, and ODNI), and 3) were reviewed by the courts. If you don't like what is going on then stop wasting your time posting on ./ then get involved and write to your congressmen to change things.

    7. Re:A fatal flaw by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Do you hear what you are saying? You are saying the people who work as NSA are the same as those at Auschwitz who killed masses of people.

      They are essentially the same. They're part of a system which kills people it finds inconvenient, all over the world.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:A fatal flaw by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      Drones have a long way to go before they are numerically equivalent to Auschwitz, but let's face it, they're both systematic assassination programs that target people in a particular ethnic group which a wildly aggressive administration simply doesn't like. Many strikes are against people whose names aren't even known. The NSA is a key part of the drone program. You can't work there and not be supporting it.

    9. Re:A fatal flaw by N1AK · · Score: 1

      Do you hear what you are saying? You are saying the people who work as NSA are the same as those at Auschwitz who killed masses of people.

      I'll bite. The people at Auschwitz would have been killed if they refused to follow orders, and there would be consequences for close family as well. NSA employees could quit with little, if any, consequence beyond the loss of their pay cheque. What the employees at Auschwitz were involved in is far worse, imo, than anything we're aware of the NSA but that doesn't mean you can't make any comparison.

      The people who threatened and silenced the opposition in Germany in order to help the Nazis gain total control are just as responsible for the atrocities that came later as the individuals who were ordered to execute the victims.

    10. Re: A fatal flaw by moeinvt · · Score: 1

      The activities were NOT "authorized by Congress". Bush described a "warrantless wiretapping" program (a clear violation of the FISA Act) back in the early 2000s. Then, the government granted itself ex-post-facto immunity with the FISA revisions act in 2007..
      There is no "oversight" when the president and DOJ are overseeing themselves. That's like letting police write their own search warrants and claiming it's OK because the police chief and mayor are cool with it.
      Reviewed by the courts my ass! The FISA court is a secret court where The People have no voice and it rubber stamps anything the government wants to do as long as they claim it's for national security.
      At least twice the ACLU has gone through the regular courts and sued the government on the issue of illegal and un-Constitutional surveillance. The government has argued that the plaintiffs do not have "legal standing" because they can't prove they were affected (of course the government won't tell you who was affected because "national security"). AFAIK, neither federal courts nor the SCOTUS have ever directly addressed the Constitutionality of the bulk surveillance programs

      " write to your congressmen to change things."

      LOL. I've written, e-mailed, called and sent snail mail for years and nothing ever changes. The only issues where the little people have so far been victorious is in stopping gun control and with a few tactical victories like defeating CISPA.
      The government has unlimited time and money however, so they can wear us down with a relentless assault on civil liberties.

    11. Re:A fatal flaw by moeinvt · · Score: 2

      No, he's saying that "I was only following orders" is in no way a justification for behavior that is morally wrong or even illegal. The parallel is clear.
      This NSA guy is actually admitting that he is willing to do his job as a cog in the machine even if he thinks the activities are wrong.

    12. Re:A fatal flaw by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      So you believe the administration is capricious and just picks random people in drone strikes?

    13. Re: A fatal flaw by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      The recent issue has been the FISA Section 215 program. Not the "warrantless wiretapping" program going back to the early 2000s. The FISA court is not a rubber stamp.

    14. Re:A fatal flaw by PPH · · Score: 1

      There are people who value their right to privacy as much as their own lives. So, yes. To them, the NSA is just as bad.

      I don't recall our founding fathers prioritizing the Bill of Rights.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    15. Re:A fatal flaw by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      I have a friend that made a decision that there are certain jobs he will never take. Those jobs included those which go against his moral beliefs. People who do not believe it is moral to spy on people in other countries should not take a job at the NSA. If the guy came to learn things that he was not comfortable with then he should have stopped being a cog in the machine and resigned.

    16. Re:A fatal flaw by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      The constitution is a beautiful thing. It provides protections against unreasonable searches and seizures. It also provides the government a mechanism to obtain information using warrants approved by courts. It seems the recent debateis over what is unreasonable and when warrants are required.

    17. Re:A fatal flaw by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Funny thing about those terrorists. It is 'inconvenient' that they enjoy killing innocent people all over the world due to their warped word views. It is 'inconvenient' they are killing innocent children and taking young under 10 years old as wives.

    18. Re:A fatal flaw by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      "Double-tap" strikes: They kill one person, then they have the drone loiter and wait for rescuers to come along and bomb those, on the assumption those must be bad guys too. They have no idea who those people are.

      They killed a mid-level Pakistani Taliban guy, in the hope bigger Taliban guys would go to the funeral. They then bombed the funeral and killed dozens of people - no idea who those people were, they just /hoped/ they'd kill some more Taliban.

      A clear and utter disregard for the lives of ordinary Pakistanis, Afghans and Iraqis that is only possible if you regard them as less than human.

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
    19. Re:A fatal flaw by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      I do not believe the military or government sees Pakistanis, Afghans, and Iraqis as less than human. Unfortunately many in the Islamic culture support honor killings, repressive treatment of girls and women, raping of young girls, and blind hatred of people of other religions.

    20. Re:A fatal flaw by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      I don't see what your comment has to do with the policy of killing unknown people, with no evidence against them.

      Unless of course you're saying that because some people there are bad guys, or because some aspects of culture are disagreeable, that therefore it is OK to kill any one of them - including those girls and women you profess to be concerned about. In which case, you're as uncaring, as hating, as inhuman as any of the worst of them.

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
    21. Re:A fatal flaw by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      Oh, and your comment demonstrates the dehumanising attitude I wrote about in mine.

      You need to take a long hard look at yourself, and try find your own humanity back.

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
    22. Re:A fatal flaw by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      I agree it is unfortunate that innocent people are getting hurt by drone strikes. Unfortunately weak nations stood by for years to watch this extremist culture fester. Maybe the US and others should stop the drone strikes, military action, and let the host countries deal with their own problems.

    23. Re:A fatal flaw by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      I find your view extremist.

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
    24. Re:A fatal flaw by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      Couple of questions. Was it an extremist position for the US to attack Islamic militants in Afghanistan after 9/11? Is it an extremist position to capture and kill Islamic militants in Afghanistan today?

    25. Re:A fatal flaw by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      I don't think the US military intervention in Afghanistan was well-directed in terms of attacking those responsible for 9/11. Nor do I think the ongoing operations are doing much to improve US security. Indeed, the wider "war" on Islamic extremism ("we must bomb Kobane into rubble, to save it") is likely highly counter-productive and bone-headed.

      However, set that aside, let's assume militant Islamic extremists are justified military targets.

      Are double-tap strikes justified? How can it be justified to bomb and kill rescuers of whom nothing is known other than that came to rescue people - they may be passing good Samaritans, neighbours, etc.? Answer: It can't be justified, and it is in fact against the laws of war.

      How can it be justified to deliberately bomb funerals, which will draw people of lots of different types of association with the original deceased? There would be many men and boys who are there because they were family (near and distant), kinsmen, neighbours, acquaintances, random observers, etc. - *not* militant extremists.

      How can it be justified to deliberately bomb militant extremists at home? Afghanis live in large family groups. Targeting them at home kills their parents, grandparents, brothers, sisters, cousins. You can only justify this if you have absolutely no regard for civilian Afghanis (and from your earlier comment, it seem you have little regard - despite your faux concern for women there).

      Home compounds were targeted simply because a militant had spent a night there. However in Afghan culture (deriving from Islamic teaching) you are required to give hospitality to strangers, and it is not uncommon for this to happen. Random families have been wiped out for no reason other than that some "brave" drone operator watched a *suspected* Taliban stay at that house some night before, and so they get bombed another night.

      Here's the thing, if you can justify the above, then tell me how you would be any different from a terrorist justifying attacks on civilians in a democracy? Certainly, if you can justify bombing militants' homes, then "terrorists" can equally justify shooting off-duty soldiers or bombing their homes - if it's not terrorism when done by western powers in Afghanistan, neither can it be if they do it over here.

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
    26. Re:A fatal flaw by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      Oh, for the avoidance of all doubt: The last paragraph is highlighting the consequences of saying that it is OK to kill rescuers, or OK to kill people by association. I personally do *not* believe any of these things are ever generally justified, either by western powers in the Islamic crescent or by militants elsewhere.

      Double-tap strikes targeting rescuers are very clearly heinous war-crimes.

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
    27. Re:A fatal flaw by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      I did not understand your usage of the term double-tap. Thanks for explaining that. I do agree killing individuals who have nothing to do with terrorism is not justified.

    28. Re:A fatal flaw by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      Good to agree on that.

      Yet, no one in the west has ever been prosecuted for double-tap strikes. Not even in the infamous "Collateral Damage" video leaked by Bradley Manning, where children are clearly visible through the window of the van of a random Good Samaritan who happened to stumble on the scene of a previous attack and stopped to help.

      --
      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
  11. No, it doesn't by s.petry · · Score: 2

    As someone wise once told me.. "Wish in one hand and shit in the other. One hand will be full and the other empty, tell me which is which." What you are attempting to claim is that someone today can unlearn thousands of years of study on human nature. I realize you were attempting to be nice, but nice and honesty don't always go hand in hand.

    To the psychopath that decided this person was Socrates I will ask that they actually go study Socrates. This person was not Socrates or Plato by any stretch of the imagination. In both cases the Philosopher would have been smart enough to know that self interests and preservation prevents a fair view of their ethics. The only way for someone to evaluate the ethics fairly would be to evaluate as an outsider.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    1. Re:No, it doesn't by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1

      To the psychopath that decided this person was Socrates I will ask that they actually go study Socrates

      I guess you didn't RTFA. The article calls him that because he answered a writing job ad for the NSAs internal magazine that asked, "Are you the Socrates of SIGINT"? The articles author didn't name him that, and he didn't name himself that.

    2. Re:No, it doesn't by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Actually I did read TFA, but thanks for making a false accusation. Who gave the person the name makes no difference to my comment.

      Anyone with ethics would immediately have seen a problem with the question. "Are you the Socrates of [ROLE]?" in any Government bureaucracy would have been scoffed at. Anyone knowing anything about Socrates would have known the idiocy of that question.

      Instead of remaining ignorant and making baseless accusations ask questions to educate yourself! That method completely contradicts what you just did.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  12. you set up an ethicist. he finds issues. congrats by swschrad · · Score: 1

    you both achieved a goal. so don't investigate the guy because he tagged you. he did his job. you did your job, you found an ethical dilemna worth studying. win-win. I want a cookie.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  13. Guilty before proven innocent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The philosophy is simple and obvious: guilty before proven innocent. What else can possibly be said?

  14. Re:you set up an ethicist. he finds issues. congra by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You already have several cookies. We use them to track your web browsing activities. And our ethicist has assured us that it is ok for us to do this.

  15. Putting bread on the table by aNonnyMouseCowered · · Score: 2

    No, I call it putting bread on the table. Picture this. There's a call for "writers", a guarantee of relative anonymity (the column will be published in an internal network of a highly secretive organization), and a chance to either get paid extra or at least rise in the eyes of your bosses (and thus make yourself a wee bit less dispensable). If I were already in his or her position, I'd apply and do my damnedest to write something at least grammatically and stylistically competent while pleasing to the target market (the head spooks). And he appears to have met the criteria. It's no different from being the speech writer of an annoying political candidate.

    I suspect most of the NSA rank and file belong to this category. They love their job because it puts bread on the table.

    1. Re:Putting bread on the table by The+Real+Dr+John · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yup, that sums up the problems with modern capitalism very well. Everyone is doing something wrong because it pleases the boss and makes them money.

      --
      A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
    2. Re: Putting bread on the table by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Boy, WE are the target audience. They have a P.R. problem and want to fix it with things like this.

      Now, lets use this medium to communicate with them: Dear NSA, we would be much more sympathetic with you if

      A) You did not perform wholesale collection, but targeted collection. If you threw away the innocent stuff. You actually build FILES ON EVERYBODY and no amount of denial invalidates this. It makes you more powerful, just as it made the Stasi and the KGB more powerful. Do we have to explain you the content of Magna Charta ?

      B) Would go after folks like Cheney and Bush when they work for the Saudis and Israel. Why did you not leak their nasty little secrets when it became apparent those folks were pulling a false flag ? It was your duty, and you failed.

      C) Would go after those who still suck up to Saudi Money, like the British guy. By letting this happen, it appears you want Wahabist Terrot to exist. A make work program, it looks ?

      D) Appeard more like a honest polieceman than folks having a hidden agenda. See B) and C)

      Now you can again send your foot soldiers if you consider it necessary. Have fun with your good Mohammedist friends.

    3. Re:Putting bread on the table by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      I suspect your last sentence is spot-on, but I was speaking more about the role of "Socrates," not the person.

    4. Re: Putting bread on the table by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      A) You did not perform wholesale collection, but targeted collection. If you threw away the innocent stuff. You actually build FILES ON EVERYBODY and no amount of denial invalidates this

      Stored data doesn't count as a "file," until a human looks at it. That's a big difference between the Stasi and the NSA: Stasi had actual humans examine and physically sort pieces of data; NSA does it by computer, hence no "file".

      B) Would go after folks like Cheney and Bush when they work for the Saudis and Israel.

      Elected officials, by definition, represent and therefore do the will of the people. The appropriate question to ask is why the people would want to place the security and welfare of a foreign nation above their own. The answer to this may lie in massive data archive, given the right analysis.

      C) Would go after those who still suck up to Saudi Money, like the British guy.

      Why do you hate our way of life? There is nothing better than to find a source of money and suck it dry. Capitalism means everything is for sale.

    5. Re:Putting bread on the table by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is there a possibility he was trolling, but the NSA is itself untrollable and literally can't recognize parody when it's printed in their own newsletter? Because this shit is completely over-the-top; it's like something out of The Onion.

    6. Re:Putting bread on the table by smaddox · · Score: 1

      To be fair, government employees don't really fall under Capitalism (the concept). Nonetheless, when it comes to invading our privacy, private corporations are at least as effective as the government. The difference is that the former are pursuing profit, while the latter are pursuing power and control.

    7. Re:Putting bread on the table by The+Real+Dr+John · · Score: 1

      I think it is pretty obvious now that they are working together to make both money and increase their power. It is almost like a form of neofascism where corporations and the government are working together to keep control, and increase power and wealth. Most regulatory agencies have been "captured" by big business, think FDA, EPA, USDA, SEC, FEC etc. Corporations now write the legislation through ALEC, which then gets passed around from state to state, and the bribed politicians push for the legislation and then vote to pass it.

      I could go on, but you get the point.

      I don't think it could be rigged much worse without it becoming absurdly obvious even to people who weren't paying attention.

      --
      A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
  16. Cheapskates... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They could have hired an actual philosophy PhD, or contracted a researcher in surveillance ethics to write their columns. Instead of which they hire internally and come up with a would-be storyteller.

    1. Re:Cheapskates... by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      My guess is that they have too many people internally that they don't want to fire so they try to give them something to do.
      According to that Citizenfour movie NSA has 1.2 million American people on watch. Assuming it is true, it is a ridiculous number : they can closely follow a reasonable number of people, do global monitoring, or both but how can they be efficient with such a huge list? So my guess is that it is mostly to occupate as many employees as possible.

    2. Re:Cheapskates... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      A lot of the intel gathering falls into it might be useful in the future variety ie young person tracked buying drugs is the child of a politician, they require a corrupt favour from that politician and they threaten them with the prosecution of their child. This then extends out into private government partnerships, so private enterprise via government contacts extends that corruption into the private sphere. This now represents the bulk of government espionage. Those corrupt favours include legislation against the interests of citizens governed by the legislation, corporate espionage, insider trading, industrial espionage and of course attacking the opposing teams. This activity then hugely corrupts and weakens all security activities as gaining illegal access takes precedence over preventing illegal access, this perversely enough means that foreign break ins are allowed where blocking them would also block 'approved' security intrusions.

      As for working for places like the NSA, you must first make that choice work for them before the choices you pretend they make for you when you are their employee. In the current climate, that tends to indicate at core being a privacy invasive control freak, meaning those that choose to work for the NSA are likely those whom the majority would consider psychologically unfit to work for the NSA.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  17. name plz by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Major brownie points for the name

  18. Where is the cow person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just asking.

    1. Re:Where is the cow person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Maybe he mooooved on?

    2. Re:Where is the cow person? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I miss him / her / it too...

      Whenever I've got mod points, +1 insightful

  19. Sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They're employing this idiot for the same reason a priest is dragged in to babble pointless bullshit when the state executes someone: It makes them feel better about what they're doing or, at least, gives them a good excuse.

  20. Long term by AHuxley · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    It was interesting to see terms like "total surveillance", been "loyal" and a "higher level".
    "Total surveillance" is great for budget growth and domestic expansion requests.
    The German "orders are orders" aspect vs the US constitution is another interesting idea that seems to be well established over decades.

    Long term the US is facing the same issues the UK faced in the 1930's -1970's
    A flood of staff with skills but no vetting just to get the needed Russian or German or later computer skills worked for the UK short term.
    After the 1950-60 UK vetting was found to be vital again and outsourcing was used to fill the skills gap with loyalty been the only new test.
    What the US and other nations found is that "loyalty" alone does not bring a fully rounded person, a smart person with life skills for the world stage.
    The UK solved the issues by adding more expensive excellence in terms of working conditions, ongoing education, better wages, real advancement options at every level, making every domestic action legal and ensuing only the very best staff where kept long term.
    The understanding of total compartmentalization also helped the UK.

    The US now the huge internal tasks of ensuing every loyal staff member is comfortable with their working around the US constitution domestically, ensuring another Church Committee like report is never made public again and no more whistleblowers.
    Constant internal legal reassurance over illegal domestic spying, pay issues, a living wage, spending on further education of loyal staff, the new external contractors testing US gov staff for loyalty with new tests and tracking.

    What can be said about US intelligence capabilities long term if the loyal only trend continues? Loyal gov staff with few advancement prospects, rising living costs surrounded by highly paid expert private sector contractors is not a great mix.
    Now the US has now funded internal, domestic "total surveillance" as a bureaucratic growth opportunity for its huge numbers of loyal gov staff.
    More domestic electronic "total surveillance" will be the only solution available to any issue.
    Weak domestic crypto, working with big US brands for more trap doors, back doors will ensure total domestic surveillance. The East German issue of bureaucratic surveillance size to population size will become a US budget issue.
    A domestic controlled opposition system would have been much more effective and cheaper but the US seems to be sold on public/private/mil total surveillance.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  21. Diogenes' Lamp Just Shattered! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It would be an oxymoron to put the terms "NSA" and "ethicist" in the same sentence, much less hire one. Let's see:

    Position: in-house ethicist for NSA

    Requirements:

    • - Ability to obscure arguments ad infinitum, and nauseum, and ad distractum,
    • - Adept at the expression and manipulation of all human logical fallacies,

    Candidates displaying a cloven left hoof and horns will be given preference.

    1. Re:Diogenes' Lamp Just Shattered! by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      Your requirements fit perfectly to some actual ethicists I know.

  22. The name is Jacob Weber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From comments in TFA, the public blog is here: http://workshopheretic.blogspot.com/
    and a picture is here ("American as Berbere"): http://baltimorereview.org/index.php/fall_2014/section/category/fiction

  23. Watching the watchers by moeinvt · · Score: 1

    I wish we had similar data about all NSA employees, or even all federal government employees.
    The information isn't associated with a name. It should therefore be OK for people to have it, right?

  24. Help wanted by Atrox666 · · Score: 1

    The successful candidate will be highly skilled in ethical gymnastics.
    Are you looking to sell out your country for the ends of the current malignant government?
    Are you unable or unwilling to follow even the basic principals of the constitution? (Preference given to those that haven't even read it.)
    Does calling you a patriot or vague warnings about terrorism motivate you to do even the shittiest most underhanded things to innocent people?
    Are you highly talented in moral ambiguity and a motivated hypocrite? We have the job for you.

  25. The NSA didn't need a philosopher by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They need a writer. One who simply writes down the existing NSA philosophy which can be boiled down to:

        All your base are belong to us!

    Hey, NSA, I just did some work for you! You can send me the money later, you already know where to find me.

  26. Stockholm Syndrome by r-diddly · · Score: 1

    ...where one submits to one's captors and even begins to sympathize with them. This guy has it. Mind you, surrender and submission is one of several strategies for dealing with threats. In "Socrates'" case the threat began with the polygraph test and his chosen strategy was complete submission to an adversary he probably perceives as superior. Snowden adopted a different strategy, though he may have made the same assessment of the adversary.

    1. Re:Stockholm Syndrome by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

      The ironic bit is that the polygraph has no scientifically established power to detect lies (independent of people's abilities). The polygraph is an interrogation prop. So when he was worried about the polygraph, it wasn't the technology that was the threat but the interrogator.

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      I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.
  27. Re:you set up an ethicist. he finds issues. congra by davester666 · · Score: 1

    If we gather data, and nobody knows we did it, how can it be illegal!

    Job done.

    --
    Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  28. Jacob Weber by Paul+Jakma · · Score: 1

    Seems he's Jacob Weber, photo on a story of his here: http://baltimorereview.org/ind... - which links to his blog at http://http//workshopheretic.b...

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    I use Friend/Foe + mod-point modifiers as a karma/reputation system.