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Debate Over Amazon Working Conditions Goes Back Years
Nerval's Lobster writes: This weekend, The New York Times published a lengthy report about working conditions for white-collar workers at Amazon. Describing the e-commerce giant as a "bruising workplace," the report paints a picture of a Darwinian environment. But criticism of Amazon's working conditions actually goes back years. In The Everything Store, a book-length account of Amazon by Bloomberg BusinessWeek reporter Brad Stone, the Amazon of yesteryear is indeed described as an aggressive place in which Bezos pushed employees relentlessly. So is Amazon a terrible place to work? On Quora and Glassdoor, current employees suggest that the company presents its workers with interesting challenges, and that the culture is fast-paced. While there are complaints about the hours and workload, many don't seem Amazon-specific: The world is filled with tech pros struggling to achieve work-life balance in the face of incredible goals on tight deadlines. Many cite issues with the company's frugality—its lack of perks vis-à-vis Google or Microsoft. After the report was published Jeff Bezos wrote a memo to employees that reads in part: “The article doesn’t describe the Amazon I know or the caring Amazonians I work with every day. But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero.”
They are in full damage control mode... top executives are writing pieces stating that they have never been asked to work on weekends... on Saturday?
Posting anonymously for obvious reasons. I am anonymizing some details too, to make people not quite identifiable.
This has been going on for a while, and it hits developers too. A friend of mine programmed there for years, on the retail side. Things weren't quite that bad for him originally, but as time went by, pressure keep adding, teams were pitted against each other, and things like family and health were seeing as secondary. Team X did all this stuff, so we have to work even longer hours to compete with them! Taking sick days was seen as letting the team down, so people worked through everything. One time a cold was worse than a cold. Going untreated, it turned to bronchitis, then pneumonia. By the time he did go to a doctor, permanent damage was done.
I wish he had quit before that, but having worked there for a while, he had an unwarranted sense of loyalty for the company. Now he can't even go on a trip without bringing medical equipment, because his lungs are shot. No amount of pay and stock options is worth that, but he didn't know the price he was paying until it was done.
I've only seen one place that created more stress, and it's a huge hedge fund that happens to be run a bit like a personality cult for his founder.
Putting the health of employees and their family first is a big thing for me now. A lax work from home policy, no fear of review trouble for too many sick days in a crunch. Coming to work sick should not be something to be proud of, but ashamed of, as the most you can accomplish is to get your team mates sick! Same thing for working long hours. A coworker of mine used to do weekend marathons, where he'd make major changes. Guess where all the bugs came from? Marathons where a lot was produced, but most of it was shit.
It's the wrong culture, and Amazon has managers working there, right now, that keep that culture running. Jeff should just fire the hell out of them, because they are doing him no favors. Stories get around, and that's why, when Amazon calls trying to hire very senior people. Many of us say no.
As a current employee, here are some things in a nice numbered list:
1) Amazon pays for your travel. You can even get a corporate card. The whole "they make you pay for your own travel" thing is downright dumb. Also, provide our own cell phones? Yeah, most companies do. But we can expense the plan if we're on call. Like most companies do. And desks? LOL. Please. I've never worked anywhere where you have to provide your own desk.
2) I work ~8 hours a day. If I work a night or weekend it's because I'm working on something that excites me and I'm bored or have nothing else to do (e.g. wife is out of town, I don't feel like going out, there are no good movies out, etc). Sometimes I get presented with very interesting problems to solve and I get really excited about. There will be mis-managed teams in a company this size. It's inevitable. It's unfair to classify the whole company because some people shouldn't be managers.
3) The yearly culling thing is a joke. Read Nick C's article on LinkedIn. I worked with him in Marketplace. Smart guy, he's telling the truth.
4) I joined Amazon mid-career. I worked in a lot of other companies. I stagnated in some, and got out. This is the first place in a long time that's challenged me in really awesome ways. I tell new-hires, especially fresh (or nearly fresh) out of college to take it easy and not burn out. I want people to stay. I plan to stay as long as I can - I love it here. Almost everyone I know loves it here.
5) If you don't like your team or work, you are absolutely encouraged to rotate to another group. It happens all the time. The cross-pollination of ideas (ha ha yes, make a 'worker bee' joke, go ahead) and disciplines is awesome, and makes us all a lot more well-rounded as engineers.
6) No one cries. Come on..if they do, it was probably a decade or more ago. *shakes head*
7) The entire article is architected as a slam piece. Open your eyes, people.
The article really bugs me. It's written with an insane amount of bias. If you interview 100 people who were unhappy at Amazon (of the hundreds of thousands we've employed over the years), then you will have a very unhappy-sounding article. How about interview 100 people who love their job and are still there?
Now excuse me while I munch on my free snacks and beers that were provided by leadership. kthx
about 4 years ago now I guess. I thought Steve was exaggerating about Amazon, or trying to be humorous (or both), but now in hindsight I think he was probably being accurate.
The rant
"Jeff Bezos is an infamous micro-manager. He micro-manages every single pixel of Amazon's retail site. He hired Larry Tesler, Apple's Chief Scientist and probably the very most famous and respected human-computer interaction expert in the entire world, and then ignored every goddamn thing Larry said for three years until Larry finally -- wisely -- left the company. Larry would do these big usability studies and demonstrate beyond any shred of doubt that nobody can understand that frigging website, but Bezos just couldn't let go of those pixels, all those millions of semantics-packed pixels on the landing page. They were like millions of his own precious children. So they're all still there, and Larry is not.
Micro-managing isn't that third thing that Amazon does better than us, by the way. I mean, yeah, they micro-manage really well, but I wouldn't list it as a strength or anything. I'm just trying to set the context here, to help you understand what happened. We're talking about a guy who in all seriousness has said on many public occasions that people should be paying him to work at Amazon. He hands out little yellow stickies with his name on them, reminding people "who runs the company" when they disagree with him. The guy is a regular... well, Steve Jobs, I guess. Except without the fashion or design sense. Bezos is super smart; don't get me wrong. He just makes ordinary control freaks look like stoned hippies.
So one day Jeff Bezos issued a mandate. He's doing that all the time, of course, and people scramble like ants being pounded with a rubber mallet whenever it happens. But on one occasion -- back around 2002 I think, plus or minus a year -- he issued a mandate that was so out there, so huge and eye-bulgingly ponderous, that it made all of his other mandates look like unsolicited peer bonuses."
Dear Amazon interns, some advice from an old man who has been at Amazon way too long. Quote: "Amazon's work-life balance is awful."
Working for Amazon Sounds Utterly Soul Crushing.
Life in an Amazon Warehouse: Fear and Efficiency at 35 Orders Per Second
Inside Amazon's Kafkaesque performance-improvement plan
Inside Amazon's Bizarre Corporate Culture
Amazon Is a Time Thief, by an Amazon Employee.
Is Amazon an unpleasant place to work? Quote: "Based on my experience, I agree with what everyone has said about the company being a horrible place to work."
Inside Amazon: Wrestling Big Ideas in a Bruising Workplace
Glassdoor Reviews of Amazon
We haven't allowed vacation time in nearly a year
And, that is now the new normal at Seattle tech companies. When I first moved here seven years ago, I asked how to notify the company of planned vacation time. I couldn't find it in the HR system. I got screamed at for using the word "notify" rather than "request." Our HR director called me "an arrogant little sh--" for that. Because she also bitched at my boss, he told me no vacation time for one year. The jerk was serious. I thought at first he was kidding. Since then, I haven't been allowed to take more than one day in a row or more than two total days in a quarter off. It sucks to see all of the developers not be allowed vacation while nontechnical employees almost always take their entire four weeks off each year. From what I've seen and heard from friends, there are definitely two classes of employees in most Seattle companies.
Also an ex-amazonian, left after many years (& good performer in each one also not disgruntled). Can relate to the nyt article, tho have not seen anyone cry but rest is pretty accurate in silicon valley. too much politics, very toxic culture. plus they didn't even touch on seattle & sv struggle for control. there is a reason you build crap like firephone and not have voices of dissent reach upstairs even though nobody really believed in it.
To rebut your 100 people comment, I do not know of a single ex-amzn who was happy working at amazon. I think a recent tweet by marc andreesen also says something on similar lines.
btw I would not trust anything coming out of a current manager there (like the linkedin rebuttal).
one more thing, I have rarely worked an 8hr day at amazon in all these years!