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Sci-Fi Author Joe Haldeman On the Future of War
merbs writes: Joe Haldeman wrote what is hailed by many as the best military science fiction novel ever written, 1974's The Forever War. In this interview, Haldeman discusses what's changed since he wrote his book, what hasn't, and what the future of war will really look like. Vice reports: "...The Vietnam War may have ended decades ago, but our military adventuring hasn’t. Our moment can somehow feel simultaneously like a crossroads for the technological future of combat and another arbitrary point on its dully predictable, incessantly conflict-laden trajectory. We’re relying more on drones and proxy soldiers to fight our far-off wars, in theaters far from the conscionable grasp of homelands, we’re automating robotics for the battlefield, and we’re moving our tactics online—so it seems like an opportune time to check in with science fiction’s most prescient author of military fiction."
It sounds crass and nasty. But if we have manned engines of war fighting other unmanned enginnes of war, there is no point.
Because everyone else will catch up. It won't always be unmanned on people, all will eventually have dronish devices.
Be cheaper to run simulations and the best one wins.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Or to be more precise, everyone in the future is a homosexual to the point where even platonic friendships between different sexes are considered out of the ordinary.
Michael Moore "Where to invade next?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
I'd love to see Forever War in movie form as it has such good potential. Translating it into a 2.5 hour film would be impossible without completely rushing it though (see Enders as a perfect example).
Giving it the Lord of the Rings treatment would be insanely expensive but also potentially awesome.
Tom Kratman and David Drake have written superb stories, which explore why we have wars. Drake especially explains that when we have nothing to fight over, nothing to fight for, we'll make the stupidest excuses to fight. As Haldeman says, "We live in an unstable and dangerous environment, and we like it. We don’t want to change it."
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
Massive semi-autonomous machines wiping out 1000s of browns at a time. It will be like the 1900s all over again.
with a full page uncloseable ad hiding the text?
it just goes and on. mission creep isn't just a problem, it is the essence of the mission
what it really is is law enforcement
in a way there is a "war on murder" and a "war on rape" that will never end and never be won, so it is with terrorism
of course, that's law enforcement: it's never about ending the problem, it's about keeping the cockroaches in check
the problem with the conflicts of today is who is enforcing the law. ideally the law should be the states where the cockroaches congregate. but those states are broken and helpless. in fact, that is why the cockroaches congregate there. so we have to go in and enforce, because otherwise the cockroaches breed, proliferate, then take the battle to our shores. it's either drone strike a shitbag in yemen, or take him down in manhattan. those are our choices
so you think about tactics. the best approach. and the best approach is to strengthen and stabilize these broken states. give the cockroaches no place to breed
i didn't say that was easy. but at least that game has metrics and a finite scope. a huge, difficult scope, but finite
as opposed to open ended forever mission creep
education, infrastructure, good governance, security. expensive, long term, beset with setbacks, grey areas, and uncertainty
yet better than just endlessly drone striking jihadi dirtbags in the sand forever. that will never end unless we stop the conditions that breed them
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Imagine if you had a robot bounty hunter that could capture any person safely and bring them to court at the UN. You wouldn't need war at all. If you could capture Bin Laden and bring to trial no afghan war. If they were tough enough you wouldn't even need offensive weapons. The only reason you need to kill is to protect your life.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Michael Moore "Where to invade next?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
I really like controversial movies that make a statement, even ridiculous or logically flawed ones. They are a springboard for debate and discussion, and even the bad ones can help clarify our thoughts. Exactly *where* is his argument wrong? And so on. ...but they have to be sincere and truthful.
Michael Moore edited and remixed dialog in "Bowling for Columbine" so that people appeared to say things that they didn't actually say. It was done so badly and so blatantly (ie - it's so blatant and pervasive that he can't claim it was accidental), that he lost all credibility.
It's really a shame. I like his earlier works, and Columbine was a ripe subject for political statement, but you just can't gin up a fight by putting words in people's mouths.
You have to show what they *really* said, and in enough context so that their intended meaning comes through.
Sadly, I don't watch Michael Moore works any more. You just can't trust him.
Wars could be fought merely by words alone. The amount of energy used to pump up our fake egos is getting ridiculous. Soon we will be fighting for the last bits of fuels. Life on this planet may eventually evolve into some form if intelegent life.. Our last hope is that the size of the population is relative to its intelligence. I estimate that a population size of 16 billion may be necessary before any real intelligence can be reached. It's still very elementary survival of the fittest stage we are in today...
"A War For The Ratings" by Joe Haldeman
We used to finish dinner early; run to the TV
So's not to miss the footage of the war on NBC --
Then switch our sets to CBS, watch Walter Cronkite say
"Now let's see what happened in Viet Nam today."
The sound of spinning chopper blades it made our pulses race;
The flames of burning villages brought smiles to our face;
The smoking ash, the napalm splash, the rattle of M-16's --
The tanks and bombs and planes and guns and other great machines
So come on Mr. President, let's draft a million more
And kindly ask the Arabs if they'd like to fight a war.
Another fifty thousand dead, that's not too much to pay
To have a war on Channel Four at seven every day.
The news on television now is really pretty pale;
Who wants to see another politician go to jail?
Or specials on pollution, or inflation, or VD --
They just don't give the public what it really wants to see.
My heart leaps up when I behold a bomber in the sky;
I love to watch the bad guys as they fall and bleed and die.
I thrill to see our soldiers kill the other boys in green --
You can almost smell the smoke and blood a-comin' from the screen.
So rally round the flag, boys, let's draft a million more
To go and grease the Middle East, to start another war.
Another fifty thousand dead, that's not too much to pay
To have a war on Channel Four at seven every day.
Someday soon I hope to tune the news on NBC
And see that old Khomeini's ass a-hangin' from a tree;
On Sixty Minutes watch our soldiers slogging through the mud
And see the streets of ancient cities run with Arab blood.
And if the Russians raise a stink and holler "Vietnam!"
Well, what the hell, they'd never have the guts to use the Bomb.
(At least I hope they wouldn't, 'cause they tell me this is so:
That radiation fills your TV picture full of snow.)
But come on, boys, let's make some noise, and draft a million more --
The price of gas alone's enough to start a Persian war.
Sponsored by GM and Ford and Dowe and Chevrolet --
Our personal war on Channel Four at seven every day.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
Charlotte was where Heston was when he made the "cold dead hands" quote, hence my confusion while viewing the movie.
The convention was actually in Denver, and this was stated in the movie, but I picked up on the Heston quote rather than the voiceover.
This wasn't clear in my response above, but it still raises the question:
How long is appropriate to wait, and how far away is far enough?
Close call, but try Starship Troopers instead.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
That's why the M-16 was invented. It isn't powerful enough to kill. It is a 22 caliber. The rifles at the time didn't cause enough suffering.
The M-16 was *more* lethal than the .30 calibre rifles that preceded it, M-14, M1 Garand. Although .223 calibre don't make the mistake of thinking its anything like the .22LR you may have plinked at soda cans with. Its a high velocity round, much faster than it's predecessor's .30 calibre rounds. So that gets it closer with respect to energy delivered to target. However the admittedly cruel thing that makes the .223 deadlier is that it is less stable than its .30 calibre predecessors. It doesn't drill a clean hole through a person, the round has a tendency to tumble when it hits a person, doing a lot more tearing and shredding of tissue. As I said, cruel.
.30 cal M-14.
.223's effectiveness against their Vietnamese allies in the war the Russians went to a similar calibre, actually about 0.1mm smaller, in the AK-74 that replaced the AK-47. You only see the .30 calibre AK-47s around because the Russians gave away/sold their huge inventories after the switch, the .30 calibre weapons were considered second tier gear.
Some US Special Forces troops who originally tested the Armalite AR-15, the prototype of what would become the M-16, were a bit skeptical at the smaller calibre at first but after a few engagements were surprised and considered it more lethal than the
After evaluating the
I think war, in a broader sense is capable of being practically eliminated.
Depending on what definition you use, I think in our lifetimes we might see the reduction of armed conflict to what might be considered today "really bad gang war."
The Mexican drug gangs are a good example. They are the future of warfare in that the facets of their conflicts will be the most we will get to "war" in the future.
So it depends on how you look at it, but I think war of the future will be closer to what we consider law enforcement.
Thank you Dave Raggett
I will say, though, that I disagree with you that a tragedy like Columbine should have some sort of geographical limit to its impact. We live in a connected world, and for better or worse one of the impacts of that is that such tragedies affect the world (or at least the first world) more or less simultaneously. I think the days where you can claim "oh, that happened miles (or thousands of miles) away, it shouldn't impact us" are long gone.
I disagree with you completely on that point.
John Cleese believes that the purpose of solemnity is to enforce control: control over people, over their actions, and over their natures.
Cleese got a lot of shit from making fun of the life of Christ, and that was half a world away and 2000 years ago(*). Because he wasn't solemn about it.
We hear weekly about bombs going off in India or Syria, a cop shoots an unarmed black man every week in the USA (on average), and of late there's an endless string of "baby found dead" stories in the news.
Must we live in a continual state of solemnity?
This is how people get controlled, how their behaviour gets corralled and guided. Comedians are quick to point out that humor is the best way to get us past a tragedy, but I've often wondered whether there's anything special about humor.
Not having the convention because of some unrelated incident is simple emotional control.
Can you give me any rational reasons why I should change my behaviour over... well... anything?
(Rational meaning: not based on emotion.)
(*) And was the first person to say "shit" on British television, the first person to say "fuck" at a British funeral (Graham Chapman's)
For vision of future wars, read Stanilaw Lem
Joe Haldeman was not the first writing about modern wars and drones. The Hungarian kid-scifi-sitcom cartoon "Mézga" has episode "Superbellum" which depicted that in 1972. Actually making fun of US-Soviet cold war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB4aOvYd0DQ&t=20m5s
The other aspect of proper warfare is occupation. Without that, an attack is merely destruction of either people or property. It might achieve a certain, intended, goal - especially for a domestic audience baying for blood. But as a long term, inter-country conflict, without an occupation to produce long-term changes in the mindset of the "enemy" population, it fails.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Well that was a worthless read, not the original book, just the article that says very little and demonstrates no insight in to the root causes of human brutality, things such as psychopathy. The lack of empathy that allows some people to victimise other people often has a measurable brain connectivity defect as it's cause and if one group has people like that in charge you have no choice but to destroy them before they destroy you.
Drones contradict conventional war by limiting death and loss to the enemy.
I'm thinking of ST:TOS 'A taste of Armageddon': No soldiers, no war machines, no occupation, no fiscal policies, just death and loss.
All military actions after Vietnam were undertaken in function of oil or Lithium (paid by reserve currency (= Dollar)). eg Lithium mines in Afghanistan were contracted to the nation that buys increasingly bonds of USofA treasury - China (bonds are the assurance that the printed money is "approved" (translation of latin "fiat")).
See subject: Heroin's a "ca$h crop" there for legit purposes like anesthetics but also for black market sale also (iirc, mexico's the ONLY real other "competitor" there).
APK
P.S.=> That crap's evil & destroys lives... apk
I'd better add - remember the guy got into film with "Roger and Me" to tell his personal story and how the car industry decline fit into it. He's an activist that makes films and not a traditional documentary maker. It's a polemic not something going into depth about a topic. Despite that he's still far more trustworthy than many in politics, but do not forget that he is also in politics, so holding him to the same standard as a journalist is a bit strange.
What more is there to say? The fundamental problem with the US is that we lack excellence and elegance in our entire apparatus of foreign policy and the military. Even with clear targets -- like Iraq in wars one and two -- we could not manage to win without doing battle, and we are failing over much of the world right now.
Of course, we (Americans) live in a country with a large military-industrial complex, with an enormous shadow government funded by organized crime (primarily the importation of drugs that have carefully been kept illegal for decades) that has been around so long that it has turned the money-laundered corner into legitimacy, and with a substantial fraction of elected public officials who think that the world is 6000 years old and is going to end in a battle with Satan Himself any day now (and another substantial fraction of elected public officials who mysteriously exit public life far, far richer than they entered it). In such a system if we aren't fighting a government, taxpayer subsidized war for buth and treauty nearly all of the time, be it a "war on drugs", a "war on the commies", a "war against ISIS", a "war against Carbon Dioxide", our corporations simply fund new politicians that will start one, manufacturing facts and portraying them convincingly to the masses as required.
In a sense, war is the secondary consequence of a failure of diplomacy and the political process. That isn't to say that it isn't effective -- naked force, successfully applied, is responsible for most of the structure of the geopolitical world in which we live. But there have been a few small successes that suggest that we may be able to eventually transcend war and surpass even Sun Tzu's highest degree of excellence. If it is good to achieve one's political, economic, and social goals without doing battle in a conflict between two powers, it is surely better to achieve those goals without doing battle on a global basis. As Sun Tzu also says:
The best way to fight all wars would be to keep all nations intact by winning them with diplomatic, social, and economic weapons, by fighting them so that everybody wins. This is the best way to sap the will to fight. This is the highest skill.
In modern times, this has never been truer. The US could at any time win any war or any battle. We have nuclear weapons and technological advantages that are truly unstoppable by any other nation, quite possibly by any other confederacy of nations working together. But we cannot win those battles, or wars, leaving the nations we fight intact, so we refrain from using our full power in almost all conflicts. We have also learned what Sun Tzu probably did not know -- that to win a war against a determined enemy, it is sometimes necessary to exterminate them, and we (thankfully) haven't the stomach for this. In wars of this sort, one must be prepared to fight for lifetimes of not-quite-war, of cold war, until the world changes and enemies become friends and allies without force.
Truly, this is right up there with the highest skill.
rgb
Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
Close call, but try Starship Troopers instead.
They are equally good. They just have different scopes. Starship Troopers focus is on why a soldier fights, while The Forever War focuses on what can happen to a soldier when fighting. They also reflect 2 different societies: one where the soldier is not only celebrated but serves as the core for society (ST), and one where the soldier is alienated and returning to a world they no longer recognize (TFW-this was also the experience for many Vietnam War vets). There are some interesting parallels in that in both cases the soldiers aren't dumb cannon fodder but are specifically selected for intelligence and physical ability. They both also touch on the impersonality of war. In ST the comparison of the cap launcher to a gun (capsules lined up like rounds, fed into a chamber, and shot out) is very apt as the soldiers are essentially aimed at a target, shot at the target like the living willing bullets that they are, and allowed to do what they do (ie, cause lots of targeted damage). In TFW we see soldiers that are used as cogs put into a machine that has a specific purpose, and when one cog breaks it is quickly discarded and another one gets pulled out of the box and stuck in its place. Again this is a direct response to Haldeman's experience in Vietnam, where most soldiers were drafted, placed into a combat unit with no one they knew, and when killed or wounded simply replaced with another draftee. The cold heartlessness of this process is reflected in the way that soldiers were selected and used by the military in TFW.
Of course, ST is the more "upbeat" of the two, and reflects their author's own view towards war: that war is a necessary evil (Heinlein) and that war is just plain evil and mostly unnecessary (Haldeman). Both books are excellent in their own rights, but it is perhaps telling to note that, according Wikipedia, Scalzi wrote the foreword for the most recent printings of TFW and that Heinlein called it "may be the best future war story I've ever read!". I am really looking forward to seeing how they adapt the film version. If they keep to the theme of the book it could be an excellent movie, kind of along the lines of a scifi Platoon. If I don't leave the movie depressed but slightly optimistic with humanity I will be disappointed.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
I don't know what other mil-SF the OP has read. I really wonder how much.
Before I read Haldeman's TFW, I read Heinlein, Drake, Moon, Laumer, and Harrison.
Perhaps that jaded me, but all those authors are both better writers and had truer depictions of the military.
I don't know what other mil-SF the OP has read. I really wonder how much. Before I read Haldeman's TFW, I read Heinlein, Drake, Moon, Laumer, and Harrison. Perhaps that jaded me, but all those authors are both better writers and had truer depictions of the military.
I'll admit, if I want lighter scifi reading, I'll grab Starship Troopers (haven't read any others of Heinlein's work). If I want scifi that makes me think and feel, I'll grab The Forever War. I enjoyed Scalzi, really like Campbell, was kind of disappointed with Steakley and Armor. That's about the extent of my experience with military scifi. And I disgree, I think TFW is a pretty accurate depiction of the military and those in it in the context and time period of Vietnam. I don't feel that it reflects the current military or our society, since thankfully we learned from Vietnam about how to treat returning veterans.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
The article quotes Haldeman as saying (emphasis mine):
"You can’t have absolute freedom with absolute danger. We live in an unstable and dangerous environment, and we like it. We don’t want to change it. I don’t know what we do about that. I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable taking away that freedom, and I don’t even have guns.
Those statements don't seem to jibe to me. Does it sound to anyone else here like what he really said/meant to say instead was "without" and "comfortable"? Or am I just projecting incredibly hard right now?
Close call, but try Starship Troopers instead.
They are equally good. They just have different scope (...)
That was a great answer, thank you :)
Don't get me wrong, i greatly enjoyed TFW and think it deserves a rightful spot on the military sci-fi hall of fame. But i consistently see Starship Troopers regarded as the best in the genre and listed on pretty much every top 10 sci-fi list to boot. - with good reason, i might add.
I would say that our treatment of veterans, as a society, has improved but still has a long way to go. Within the military its self there are some pretty major problems. The army actually created special units to try and help vets where they could get specialized treatment and either be rehabilitated or medically separated. Instead some commanders placed over those units have taken it as license to kick out as many troops as they can through chapter 10 discharges. That specific type of discharge leaves a veteran high and dry when it comes to trying to get help. I read an excellent series of articles about it awhile back, http://cdn.csgazette.biz/soldi...
One of my friends came back from a deployment pretty messed up mentally and emotionally. He luckily separated honorably, but then couldn't get any help getting treatment until the VA made a decision on his claim which took more than 18 months. That may not be a horribly long time but it was enough for him to land in jail and have his wife divorce him and try to take their kids. Luckily he got a decision from the VA shortly after getting out of jail and was able to get treatment in time to not be totally shafted in the divorce and retain some level of custody or visitation with his kids. If he had been chapter 10'd he would likely be homeless and destitute at this point.
Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia, and allied with Eastasia.
I like Halderman and Heinlen but this nonsense about prime troops in direct contact is sad. Clearly, proxies are what you will use to fight, whether they are remotely controlled or AI's or blockades or cheap meat from some place it doesn't matter. I actually like Ender's Game for that reason even if not done all that well. I hope I didn't spoil anything.
The next war will be the last one. http://www.aj-locksmith.co.uk/
"The Forever War" is pretty much the opposite of what most people would call military science fiction, in that it is basically anti-war.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it