Slashdot Mirror
London Mayor Boris Johnson Condemns Random Uber Pick-Ups
An anonymous reader writes: The mayor of London Boris Johnson has written a column in the Daily Telegraph condemning the way that Uber drivers in the UK capital can effectively circumvent black cabs' legal monopoly on being hailed by random passengers. Whilst supporting the principle of free enterprise, Johnson has no solution to the legal quandary, except to hobble Uber's business model in an absurdly Luddite move, or else level the playing field and condemn the well-outfitted but expensive black cab trade to extinction. Johnson is reluctant to ask such a thing of Parliament, noting that many people there don't 'have apps'.
Seriously, google him. Trump's hair has nothing on that.
...then what uber drivers are doing, by not being licensed black-cab operators, is against the law.
If I understand it correctly, London is a lot stricter with their drivers than most other cities, such that to simply drive a cab one must pass a fairly difficult testing process before being able to obtain a license.
At this point I'm not really sure why this is a Slashdot story anymore. It's about a livery company whose legally questionable practices and claims have drivers that are picking up hailed fares. There isn't even a technological angle on this aspect of the story, not that cell-phone dispatch is anything especially novel.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
"Uber's business model in an absurdly Luddite move"
Uber in Germany now does a registered Taxi service, where their drivers comply with all the taxi regs AND Uber still lets passengers book them.
In Germany it will pay the drivers registration, which is a mandatory step for all businesses and self employed people in Germany to ensure they have the proper business setup, taxes, and comply with the regs like insurance, vehicle standards, registrations etc.
This is a false dichotomy, Uber could offer a proper taxi booking service and comply with local laws, and does in countries where its banned.
But before Ubers trolls pop in with their "Uber is Rosa Parks" nonsense.
1) Ubers maps show fake taxis to lure people into booking. This is similar to Ashley Madison running fake women accounts to lure people to pay for their site. This is fraud.
2) Uber surge prices, Taxis are regulated prices.
3) If Uber is cheap now (largely by the advantage of not complying with laws), once its got the taxi market unregulated, it will take all the profits for itself... marketing 101. Taxi fixed pricing was introduced because once taxi monopolies formed, they ripped people off!
Uber is not breaking some unjust or unfair law. It's breaking basic taxi regs. It is not a Luddite business model, right now you can book taxis across many websites and they book LEGAL taxis, registered and compliant with taxi laws. Uber itself does this in some countries where it can't get away with breaking the laws.
Uber is not special, it just has a nastier political attack machine than most.
Can you be picked up after calling a friend to come get you? If yes, why not when you "call" an Uber?
Just saying "legal monopoly" doesn't mean much without details.
I've been to London a number of times. I think London is the only city I've ever been where I really liked the cab system (black cabs specifically that is) - the drivers are friendly, the cars in great shape and clean.
But even so, what if you can't find one? If you call (if you can call) you might be waiting a long time, or have to walk a while to where you pick one up.
London is I think a model city where the black cabs and Uber can co-exist really well - because the black cabs already set a high bar of service, they are actually worth what the charge. Uber would take away minimal business from the black cabs overall, basically people who were really cheap or couldn't find a cab.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Oh, Condemns... I dare say it took me 5 readings to get that correct.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
This is the stupidest thing I've read on this today and there are plenty of stupid things posted.
Either you are a paid Uber schill or your understanding of the situation is sooo farrr from reality you deserve a potato.
...but this article summary seems somewhat biased.
This subject seems to get pushed here ridiculously frequently. Every story is excessively shrill in support of Uber, with no objectivity (on Slashdot, hah!) or balance. Is some of Uber's big budget being spent here on astroturfing?
Frankly this has done nothing but hurt the pocket of tourists and Londoners. We require a cheaper alternative to break this evil cycle.
Enough with the Uber stories already!
Uber is paying Slashdot. I know this because I work for a news website that targets Eurocrats. Uber approached us for a spinsorship, but the deal fell apart because we would not sacrifice edirorial integrity (they wanted to be able to "guide" one article a day). One of our competitors, politico.eu, took the money and sure enough these kinds of articles started hitting their homepage. I think politico learned their lesson because they quit the relationship after six weeks, which was the contractual minimum Uber was after when they spoke with us.
I don't blame slashdot; Uber is offering a lot of money and their PR folks make it sound benign. After you sign they activate the fine print and make you publish shit (really, shit). However, that is what this scuzzy company has obviously done here and we should call them out in it.
I'd fine them £1 million per day they operated there.
Changing the rules would be a backwards step.
When you're there on quiet dark street and your taxi comes, he wants to "Surge" price you, take it or leave it.
You ordered a taxi he arrives and you have a plane to catch? "Surge time!"
No choice of taxis and its raining? "Surge time!"
Uber prices are currently kept in check by competition from legal taxis, it needs to be cheaper than them, because there are so many real taxis around.
Once it destroys the regulation of taxis, it will milk customers. It's a business not a charity.
Taxi drivers will have Uber, Uber will then know the supply side of the supply-demand equation because it can track the taxis. And can "surge" price where supply is low. You will have no choice then, the pricing rule is gone, it will be like Vietnam or Prague (hopefully the laws have changed since, but Prague use to be unregulated and taxis could hit you with a $300 bill for a short trip, simply by putting the price somewhere on the outside of the taxi).
These games that Uber play, fake taxis on maps, surge pricing etc. they are not new, and the taxi regulations protect people from them.
Biased much?
The summary posted by the sysadmins reads like a PR-piece from Uber directly.
in an absurdly Luddite move
Wot? Complying with the law is now something only Luddites do? Uber brings these problems on itself. If it's not going to comply with the law then it should shut up shop and try a different line of business.
Where is London Boris Johnson? Why do I care about this place or its mayor?
Congratulations on getting first post!!!
Moderators! Mode parent up for this great achievement!
Enough calling these battles Luddite. No government is talking about banning mobile apps to organise businesses, or automated cars/more efficient services. What they are doing is banning an ILLEGAL business model which is trying to establish a monopoly. History has shown us time and again that the only monopolies which should exist should be government owned monopolies. The Taxi industry is one of these monopolies. Power companies, water companies, and telecommunications infrastructure companies are all entities which should be government owned/run to achieve wider economic objectives than just short term profit. America has spent hundreds of billions of dollars trying to get the telcos to upgrade to fibre and it hasn't worked. If the US government had said screw you, and built the fibre directly, the USA would have had FTTH to every home in the early 2000s. This fantasy that UBER is some magical company with amazing ideas that should just take over the world is retarded. We KNOW UBER is planning to sack all their drivers once the cars are automated. Their CEO has admitted this many times. It would be much better for the UK/US/AUS governments to own the automated cars and booking systems and capture the revenue from the automated car services, than allowing more wealth be siphoned out of their respective economies to a couple of billionaires in North America. UBER's business model is predatory, monopolistic and exploitative, and they're selling it under the guise of convenience/cost. These people are planning to take on the entire transport industry once they've taken out taxis. Expect them to start going for freight/road/rail services next. There is a strong humanist argument that as we phase out entire industries for automation, that the profits raised from those automation efforts be used to raise the living standards of everyone, not just a tiny minority that came up with an obvious idea. This is only going to get worse as we start to automate all service/manufacturing/primary production jobs. UBER really is the test case for how we deal with phasing out entire workforces and replacing them with no new jobs.
> "Uber is Rosa Parks"
Heh. That was a good one. I picture a tee-shirt "Je suis Uber - uh Rosa Parks".
A martyr for The Invisible Hand. Yeah.
Interesting that the debate seems to be centred on the Black Cabs of London, omitting the role of TFL (Transport for London = tfl.gov.uk - hint in the URL) and of minicab companies.
Minicabs are normal cars for hire, they don't look like "London taxis", their drivers don't have specific training just for working in London and they can ONLY work via advance bookings. The phone booking requirement is a major difference in relation to official Black Cabs who can stop anywhere when you see them and ask for a ride.
The minicab companies are easy to find as they advertise at train stations and leave leaflets and business cards in many businesses and even through home letterboxes. If you are at a major train station, hotel, etc. you'll find a queue of Black Cabs waiting for passengers, the runs are metered and you can fit 5 adults. Some of their seats have a child seat built in, so that's another nice thing about that funny shape of car.
The minicab companies tend to have self-employed drivers. They bring their own car, typically a 4 door saloon or a 7 seat people carrier and they pay the fuel and insurance from their own takings. They also pay the minicab company for the dispatcher service. Some 5 years ago this was something like £90 per week, which means that between car expenses, the insurance and the dispatcher service, there is a lot of money to pay before the driver sees any profit. The insurance is extortionate in London, even more for working in this kind of trade. Memory fails me, but I think I was something like £3000 per year, again, 5 years ago.
So, before Uber and Hailo turn up, there is a very regulated competition between the Black cabs and random drivers trying to make some profit from their old Toyota Avensis even if they don't speak the language very well. The Black cab drivers are notorious for being picky about the areas served, but they do know the inner London boroughs very well - The Knowledge is a real thing, it's like they have all street names and POI in their heads and use satnav mostly for traffic info.
The TFL has a role to play in all this, as they have their name on the licence for both types of taxi business. Probably they take some money from them all. The TFL website is a very good one, for knowing about train, underground and river services, but when it comes to road services, you can find out about buses and road works, the taxi service being quite secondary. That's what I think that they should be working on, rather than having everyone complain and litigate.
The way I see it, the taxi apps reveal something very crucial that disrupts that peaceful coexistence between minicabs and Black cabs: passengers want to know time and place for their ride, like they do for other transport, rather than always get the same answer from the minicab phone dispatcher "they'll be there in 5 minutes".
If TFL does not work on providing this service to passengers, then the disruption is that Black Cabs will actually deliver a worse service than minicabs in very important factors: the certainty about when the driver will turn up; the price that will apply; the form of payment available to passengers.
While in the past, minicabs were the shoddier alternative to Black cabs, now "the Knowledge" and being able to hail a taxi from the street become less important. Before, the self-employed driver was sharing a lot of revenue with the mincab company as a barrier to entry, but now they can have more of their costs turn into variable rather than a fixed rent.
From a passenger's point of view, what Boris and TFL should be working on is not protecting the Black taxi trade through more legislation, like the ridiculous proposal that was made last week (discussed on wired.co.uk) that was a set of laws tailored to sabotage Uber. They should have geo-location on all Black cabs right now, and a proper dispatcher service so that people can make bookings through the TFL website and pay with the Oyster card like they can for train, tram, bus and river services. Right now minicabs are changing to become better for passengers, be it with Uber, Hailo or with smaller dispatcher companies. Black cabs could do the same if they wanted.
Obvious shill story is obvious. Ill informed use of "random" in title on slashdot. Together enough to keep me away from Uber.
Fuck Uber. Fuck the "sharing" economy where slimy Internet entrepreneurs "disrupt" legally operated businesses with their unregulated, illegal businesses that turn people into cheap whores that are eager to turn a trick to please their pimp.
Time to change the rules!
Why? The current rules work fine for everyone except uber. London has an excellent taxi system between black cabs and minicabs (some of which have had hailing apps for years). Uber doesn't bring anything extra to the table except surge pricing, loitering drivers, tax avoidance and poor insurance.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
I dont know all that much about cabs in London (although I did ride in at least one black cab many years ago when I visited the city) but from what I do know, there are companies allowed to operate minicabs which aren't allowed to pick up street hails but are allowed to offer rides to people who call them up and ask for a ride. Isn't this exactly what Uber is other than the fact that you use a button to book the ride rather than talking to a human?
As for some of the rules they want to apply, the idea of requiring drivers to have knowledge of the streets is stupid IMO, isn't that what GPS is for? Don't Uber drivers already use GPS (as part of the Uber app) to identify how to get where people want to go? (although to be fair I have never driven the streets of London so I cant comment on whether blindly following the GPS would lead to problems or not)
Will there be a cocksucking app too?
Really? The liberal London douche mayor is against the working man and for big business and big unions? WOW, who knew (besides anyone with a brain)?
*sigh*
Boris Johnson is a Tory (Conservative). He's probably a "liberal" by American standards in the sense that he doesn't (publicly) believe in slavery or oppose votes for women. He is broadly in favour of business and certainly no lover of trades unions, big or small. I'm not sure what you mean by being "against the working man" unless you only classify Uber drivers as real working men.
So, apart from the fact that you are factually wrong on every point, thanks for your contribution.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Black cabs and minicabs are both regulated in London, as the parent states. The regulations might be different but they exist and basically Uber is an unregulated minicab operator.
You might not like the regulations, but there are reasons for them (including passenger safety) and simply doing it 'via an app' doesn't change what you are and how you are expected to do it.
I didn't read the article but I presume they want them to operate as minicabs, rather than black cabs. Therefore, they are not expecting them to pass the knowledge (e.g. have knowledge of the streets) but rather that they are licensed in the same way as minicabs. Effectively, Uber is an unlicensed minicab operator and that is illegal. The app makes no difference, since many minicab operators have apps where you can book a cab, get real time vehicle tracking, etc, etc.
There is no 'legal quandary' (like the summary suggests) because if you pick people up for money you must be a taxi. Whether you are a black cab or a minicab (private hire) you must be licensed. Uber is neither.
Except for London, everywhere in Europe I have been:
1. Taxi drivers are incompetent and rude.
2. Taxi's are way to expensive.
In London however:
1. Black cab drivers can find the quickest way to the smallest street in a complex city.
2. Taxi's are very reasonably priced.
3. Private car hire is allowed, for those long trips where taxi's would be too expensive.
London does not need Uber. But mainland Europe needs it. Badly!
Blindly following GPS in London is what will get you all screwed up. It simply does not compare to taking the Knowledge. Uber is perfectly capable of running as an actual minicab company, but they'd have to make sure all their drivers are licensed to drive a minicab. They don't want to do that (because it's expensive and decreases their driver pool), so they are complaining that somehow they are special and the hundreds of years of successful regulations which ended up with one of the best taxi services in the world should be defenestrated because some startup wants to make money by worsening the entire market.
Change the rules.
And the way to do that is by passing the appropriate laws and regulations, not by breaking the existing rules. In a democratic society, rather than a libertarian fantasy, that implies getting people to agree with you, not just doing what you want.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
I use Uber tons. It's cheap, awesome and convenient.so, well, meh.
I dont suppose that you purchase all your music, movies and games on cd/dvd/bluray and run it on your Purchased Windows pc do you?
Which is what the mayor of London can initiate. Hence my exhortation to him.
You're thinking "mob rule", not "democracy". Furthermore, it's a fantasy that London is a "democracy".
London's taxi system is an overpriced, government created monopoly with stiff barriers to entry. Furthermore, it is a local system, and many business travelers (including myself) don't want to have to deal with the idiosyncracies of every random local little fiefdom, and that's all London is.
Surge pricing is good. As for the rest, it's a delusion that Uber is any worse than other organizations.
It's not overpriced, and anyone can become a minicab driver if they wish - the barriers are not stiff at all. If you are a business traveler, you'd hail a black cab instead of a minicab and none of this will be of any concern to you - no app needed at all, except to stand next to the road and raise your hand.
Clearly you don't understand London and its taxi system, but don't let that stop you!
But you're not suggesting improving anything, just removing a system which is working very well. This is London, not New York. Don't confuse the two otherwise you'll end up looking rather foolish...
"it patently clear no-one else agrees with your position" - by dave420 (699308) on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:44AM (#50595241)
Here's some that are QUITE contrary to yours from /. users + experts in the field:
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus per this VERY recent testing of them all http://www.av-test.org/en/news...
"I like your host file system." - by Karmashock (2415832) on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:57PM (#50489401)
&
"his hosts program is actually pretty good" - by xenotransplant (4179011) on Monday August 10, 2015 @03:34PM (#50287195)
---
* Let's see - a TOP antimalware company hosts AND RECOMMENDS my ware, & real users here like it - you're outnumbered, outthought, & OUTSMARTED, easily as usual, by "yours truly"...
APK
P.S.=> To top all THAT off? Better people that a "ne'er-do-well" MORON troll who's never accomplished a thing of good note in computing in yourself AGREE with me hosts are good security:
Quote of Aryeh Goretsky of NOD32/ESET doing so in fact -> http://it.slashdot.org/comment...
You UTTER blowhard do nothing "ne'er-do-well" troll... "eat your words" & tell us:
HOW DID THEY TASTE?
Flavored with the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat" since your mouth wrote checks your dimwit brain can't cash? Rammed down YOUR THROAT since you stuck your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH too?? LMAO...
... apk
London's taxi system is an overpriced, government created monopoly with stiff barriers to entry.
Do you enjoy being woefully ignorant or do you just like making stuff up.
I suggest you look up what the definition of a monopoly is before you make yourself look even more silly.
You might want to also look up what the barriers to entry to becoming a basic taxi (minicab) in London.
Nah why bother eith facts or educating yourself. It's better to angrily spew ignorance all over the internet.
Here you go, you can educate yourself here:
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/p...
However I've argued with you before, and I remember that you are completely impervious to facts and reasons. I don't hope to persuade you that you're talking utter rubbish, since you're a poster child for the backfire effect.
Hopefully however someone with un-formed opinions will read the post and not be taken in by your outlandish claims.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
If uber would stop pretending they are not a taxi service and followed the regulations that govern that industry. uber does not want to follow the regulations and claims they are not a taxi service. All the dick riding in the world doesn't change this simple fact. So change your ways or fuck off. I don't have time for little shits who try to game the system by pretending they are innovating.
The idiot speaks again.
You're right: I don't understand London and its taxi system, and I don't care to understand. I have no idea when or where taxis stop with what degree of reliability or availability (I do know it's a lot less than 100%), or what percentage of cabbies commit fraud, or whether they take my form of payment, or what fees they tack on, or how safe the system is. All I want to do is push the same button i push in any other large stinky metropolis like London to get from point A to point B with predictable arrival times and predictable service from a company that I know.
You can view this as either:
Clearly, a modern (?) Thatcherite response would be to remove the monopoly and allow all drivers a tax credit for clubs and other hand weapons that drivers can use against each other and against scum customers who use the competing service.
I wonder when uber will try to come to belfast? our black taxis and minicabs would oppose it and they have some.... shady connections (they're all run by the former terrorists)
... unless by "free enterprise" you mean circumventing labor laws and exploiting workers. This is why Uber needs to be stopped.
If they were really just a ride-sharing app company they'd not take a cut of the fare nor would they have surge pricing.
"it patently clear no-one else agrees with your position" - by dave420 (699308) on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:44AM (#50595241)
Here's some that are QUITE contrary to yours from /. users + experts in the field:
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus per this VERY recent testing of them all http://www.av-test.org/en/news...
"I like your host file system." - by Karmashock (2415832) on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:57PM (#50489401)
&
"his hosts program is actually pretty good" - by xenotransplant (4179011) on Monday August 10, 2015 @03:34PM (#50287195)
---
* Let's see - a TOP antimalware company hosts AND RECOMMENDS my ware, & real users here like it - you're outnumbered, outthought, & OUTSMARTED, easily as usual, by "yours truly"...
APK
P.S.=> To top all THAT off? Better people that a "ne'er-do-well" MORON troll who's never accomplished a thing of good note in computing in yourself AGREE with me hosts are good security:
Quote of Aryeh Goretsky of NOD32/ESET doing so in fact -> http://it.slashdot.org/comment...
You UTTER blowhard do nothing "ne'er-do-well" troll... "eat your words" & tell us:
HOW DID THEY TASTE?
Flavored with the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat" since your mouth wrote checks your dimwit brain can't can't ca$h, ramming it down your throat due to you putting YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH... apk
"it patently clear no-one else agrees with your position" - by dave420 (699308) on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:44AM (#50595241)
Here's some that are QUITE contrary to yours from /. users + experts in the field:
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus per this VERY recent testing of them all http://www.av-test.org/en/news...
"I like your host file system." - by Karmashock (2415832) on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:57PM (#50489401)
&
"his hosts program is actually pretty good" - by xenotransplant (4179011) on Monday August 10, 2015 @03:34PM (#50287195)
---
* Let's see - a TOP antimalware company hosts AND RECOMMENDS my ware, & real users here like it - you're outnumbered, outthought, & OUTSMARTED, easily as usual, by "yours truly"...
APK
P.S.=> To top all THAT off? Better people that a "ne'er-do-well" MORON troll who's never accomplished a thing of good note in computing in yourself AGREE with me hosts are good security:
Quote of Aryeh Goretsky of NOD32/ESET doing so in fact -> http://it.slashdot.org/comment...
You UTTER blowhard do nothing "ne'er-do-well" troll... "eat your words" & tell us:
HOW DID THEY TASTE?
Flavored with the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat" since your mouth wrote checks your dimwit brain can't cash? Rammed down YOUR THROAT since you stuck your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH too?? LMAO...
... apk
"it patently clear no-one else agrees with your position" - by dave420 (699308) on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:44AM (#50595241)
Here's some that are QUITE contrary to yours from /. users + experts in the field:
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus per this VERY recent testing of them all http://www.av-test.org/en/news...
"I like your host file system." - by Karmashock (2415832) on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:57PM (#50489401)
&
"his hosts program is actually pretty good" - by xenotransplant (4179011) on Monday August 10, 2015 @03:34PM (#50287195)
---
* Let's see - a TOP antimalware company hosts AND RECOMMENDS my ware, & real users here like it - you're outnumbered, outthought, & OUTSMARTED, easily as usual, by "yours truly"...
APK
P.S.=> To top all THAT off? Better people that a "ne'er-do-well" MORON troll who's never accomplished a thing of good note in computing in yourself AGREE with me hosts are good security:
Quote of Aryeh Goretsky of NOD32/ESET doing so in fact -> http://it.slashdot.org/comment...
You UTTER blowhard do nothing "ne'er-do-well" troll... "eat your words" & tell us:
HOW DID THEY TASTE?
Flavored with the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat" since your mouth wrote checks your dimwit brain can't cash? Rammed down YOUR THROAT since you stuck your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH too?? LMAO...
... apk
"it patently clear no-one else agrees with your position" - by dave420 (699308) on Friday September 25, 2015 @04:44AM (#50595241)
Here's some that are QUITE contrary to yours from /. users + experts in the field:
MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus per this VERY recent testing of them all http://www.av-test.org/en/news...
"I like your host file system." - by Karmashock (2415832) on Wednesday September 09, 2015 @03:57PM (#50489401)
&
"his hosts program is actually pretty good" - by xenotransplant (4179011) on Monday August 10, 2015 @03:34PM (#50287195)
---
* Let's see - a TOP antimalware company hosts AND RECOMMENDS my ware, & real users here like it - you're outnumbered, outthought, & OUTSMARTED, easily as usual, by "yours truly"...
APK
P.S.=> To top all THAT off? Better people that a "ne'er-do-well" MORON troll who's never accomplished a thing of good note in computing in yourself AGREE with me hosts are good security:
Quote of Aryeh Goretsky of NOD32/ESET doing so in fact -> http://it.slashdot.org/comment...
You UTTER blowhard do nothing "ne'er-do-well" troll... "eat your words" & tell us:
HOW DID THEY TASTE?
Flavored with the "bitter taste of SELF-defeat" since your mouth wrote checks your dimwit brain can't cash? Rammed down YOUR THROAT since you stuck your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH too?? LMAO...
... apk