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First Legal Union of Illegal Street Vendors Created In Barcelona

Posted by samzenpus on from the join-the-guild dept.

dkatana writes: Street vendors across Barcelona's tourist districts last week created their own union to negotiate with city officials. Barcelona has a new mayor, and new policies dealing with the "Top Manta" (for the blankets — or mantas — they spread out on the sidewalk). The recently-elected left-leaning administration in this Mediterranean city is taking a new — and controversial — approach to this complex issue. They argue that the real fault is the government's for not having a more comprehensive immigration policy. Mayor Ada Colau has welcomed the newly created Popular Union for Street Vendors (Sindicato Popular de Vendedores Ambulantes), established by the illegal vendors themselves.

61 comments

  1. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ... and this is on Slashdot because.....?

    1. Re: Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure it was kind of interesting and all but yeah, what is this doing on a geek news site?

    2. Re:Why? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2

      Because it's kinda sorta an Über thing . . . do something illegal, and then blame the government because it is not legal.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    3. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the editors are retarded. Half of the stories are random shit.

    4. Re: Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the cheap whores.

    5. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      because sometimes we just want to laugh at the commies

  2. Taxes? by itamihn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I, for one, welcome these street vendors. As long as they have all the permissions in order to open a business, respect trademarks, and pay taxes and rental of the space they use.

    1. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      .... And products sold are not counterfeit, they give invoices of products sold, with 15 day refund option, 2 year guarantee, etc.

      It is absolutely stupid that a union of ilegals can be legal. The only place in the world for such stupidity is my country.

    2. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are just poor _illegal_ migrant, trying to sell _counterfeit_ good, _scamming_ tourists if not _robbing_ them at knife point. Expecting them for respect the locals, their laws and customs is ignorant of the conditions they come from, oppressive and almost racist. Shame on you!

    3. Re:Taxes? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 3

      In many countries, organisations can be declared illegal if the goal of that organisation is to commit illegal acts (by charter or in practice). That can be hard to prove, but it happens. Some motor clubs have been banned on those grounds. Conversely, a "guild of thieves" could well be legal if the members don't talk shop and if the organisation only has lawful goals, like legal aid to arrested thieves. (Be sure that they'd be under extreme scrutiny though). And that's as it should be: freedom of association is an important right.

      Does this union of street vendors pursue illegal goals, or are they striving for legalisation and do they wish to act as spokesperson for street vendors in discussions on the topic? It seems that it's the latter case. Setting aside the question of what the best way is to deal with these street vendors, the mayor wants to discuss this with them, and as such it makes sense to invite this union to the table.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    4. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It sounds like they're unionizing in order to work with the government to become legal. Very similar to how Uber operates (just ignore the law to make money and then try to make it ok later). The difference is that Uber is a huge corporation with a ton of investors and these are primarily poor people trying to afford to live.

    5. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They are just poor _illegal_ migrant, trying to sell _counterfeit_ good, _scamming_ tourists if not _robbing_ them at knife point. Expecting them for respect the locals, their laws and customs is ignorant of the conditions they come from, oppressive and almost racist. Shame on you!

      OK, I can agree with most of what you said here, but claiming we're ignorant of the conditions they came from is fucking offensive. Countries are breaking their own laws to accept these people from war-ravaged nations or States of massive oppression. Believe me we know damn well of the conditions, and you can't break reporting enough to bias that into a mere nothing. Instead of focusing on the conditions they came from, how about we start waking up as to the conditions they're going to create in the aftermath. Governments certainly are at this point.

      As far as bringing along laws, well...you move to another country, you better learn to adapt. The entire justification of relocation at the macro level is because where they are leaving from is 100 times worse in just about every aspect. Don't complain. Laws are being broken by governments to assist you. Customs most countries will try and accommodate as long as they don't become intolerant of the interference it may cause.

      The key here is learn to adapt. Especially if you want to stay.

    6. Re: Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to liberal Europe.

    7. Re:Taxes? by dargaud · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It reminds me of prostitution in my country: it's illegal, but there's the professional category for when you declare your taxes. So it's illegal but perfectly taxed. Talk about state hypocrisy. I don't know about pimp though.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    8. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they are not going to tax them like they tax a regular bussiness owner (spain has incredibly high taxes for self employed people and small bussineses, probably the highest in the entire planet, regular bussineses barely make any money whatsoever), notice how they are still illegal thats because she cant decide whether they are legal or illegal, she is not a judge and she is not central goverment, she is just a local politician, its a miracle she did not gave them free abortions, i guess thats because they are dudes, altho for this kind of politicians giving free abortions to dudes would not be that rare, they are that stupid

      the retarded major of barcelona, and she is retarded, will fuck up the city as much as she possible can so the people will see the old thieving rulers as better rulers, what she has just done is trying to get as much illegals as possible into that city to fuck it up even more than is fucked up already, that is the oldest trick in the book, when people start to hate you find someone worse so you dont look that bad, thats why she exists, so the old regime gets back. The next elections she is out of there and the people will be less likely to go on strikes because the last time they went into any sort of demontration they only fucking thing that got them is a retard that unionizes illegal aliens that dont pay any taxes whatsoever

    9. Re:Taxes? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I suspect that this is also one of those situations where the fact that 'law' tends to have ways of bending to practicality is showing up.

      The activities of the street vendors are illegal, and some of them probably have pretty dubious immigration status; but the fact that they remain active, are quite numerous, and are visible enough to form a union suggests that the local authorities lack the will or ability to suppress their vending; and the national authorities the will or ability to process them all as vigorously as the law theoretically allows.

      Under those circumstances, it isn't terribly illogical for the mayor of Barcelona to be open to negotiations aimed at reducing the nuisances caused by street vendors in exchange for potential loosening of restrictions that are mostly theoretical or haphazardly and unevenly enforced at present.

      It always upsets people who cherish the idea that 'law' is somehow a matter of pure principle and above the sordid world of pragmatism and political horse-trading; but that doesn't make it any less true. Even when the ability of the state to enforce the law is relatively strong, pressure is applied by lobbying the political apparatus. When it is weak or partial, pragmatism can, and often does, result in the state(or its agents) reaching a compromise with the illegal sector that aims to give the less noxious elements some of what they want in exchange for cooperation, or at least non-resistance, in going after higher-value targets.

    10. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's illegal, but there's the professional category ...

      Because everyone benefits from roads and free hospitals, and everyone has the burden of public education: Being a criminal doesn't excuse that. So there's a sort of Chinese wall where criminals must obey the tax law. Remember, US crime boss Al Capone went to jail for tax evasion.

      ... Talk about state hypocrisy.

      There was a case in my state last year: A schoolgirl is dying in the street, obviously poisoned. Her girlfriend has, in a moment of maturity, hidden her guilt and invoked her 'right to silence'. The police must make a choice: Charge the girlfriend with supplying drugs, or give immunity so her confession can help save the schoolgirl. Unfortunately, the police waited too long that day but subsequent policy is to save the victim first. Blanket policies, like those so common in the USA, often cause as much damage as good.

      ... I don't know about pimp though.

      You don't know if it's a job category for tax purposes? A pimp tends to be part father, part jailor towards his employees. Because prostitutes, contrary to television shows, tend to be teenagers with few legal protections, most pimps are violent parasites. Yet pimping is considered a lesser crime than the subsequent prostitution.

    11. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A schoolgirl is dying in the street, obviously poisoned. Her girlfriend has, in a moment of maturity, hidden her guilt and invoked her 'right to silence'.

      She choose safety from drug prosecution over the life of a her girlfriend? How mature of her!

      Also the information has to be give to the doctor, not the police. And the doctors must hold confidentiality over her confession anyway. Dumb cunt if you ask me. This is why you never put your life in the hand of a women; 9 time out of 10 they make bad decision all the time.

    12. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is what you heard every day since the migrant crisis went mainstream. You want to do background check on each individual? HOW DARE YOU BE INSENSITIVE TO THE CONDITION THEY COME FROM. THESE ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN! DID YOU HEARD THERE ARE WOMEN? WOMEN I SAID!

      Yes, it's like yelling. But this is how it goes. Then they shout 'racist' this, 'xenophobe' that...

    13. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The key here is learn to adapt. Especially if you want to stay.

      Don't tell me to adapt. Tell the locals to tolerate and understand me. Also it is very cold in Europe and the Internet is slow.

    14. Re:Taxes? by _merlin · · Score: 1

      Because prostitutes, contrary to television shows, tend to be teenagers with few legal protections, most pimps are violent parasites.

      Definitely not true many places. The average prostitute in Australia is about 30, was introduced to the business by a friend around age 24, and doesn't plan to do this all her life. The average legal prostitute in Hong Kong is in her 30s or 40s, divorced, and probably going to be doing it until she can't make money that way any more. The average illegal prostitute in Hong Kong is 24, on a tourist visa, and has a kid back home she needs to support.

      Agree with you about pimps for the most part, they're a shady bunch you'd do best to stay away from. The female ones can be at least as bad as the male ones. Although some of the women running "massage parlours" who work themselves seem to be OK, but in that case they're not really a pimp I guess, just a team lead.

      Yet pimping is considered a lesser crime than the subsequent prostitution.

      That isn't actually true in many jurisdictions, such as UK and Hong Kong. In both cases prostitution is legal under certain conditions (e.g. not soliciting in public, no more than one woman working out of a single place of business, etc.) but pimping is completely illegal. The laws in these jurisdictions are designed to punish people exploiting women, rather than punishing women selling their bodies.

    15. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > It is absolutely stupid that a union of illegals can be legal.

      And, in the US Obama has said he wants a group of legal citizens acting together to have their rights reduced because they're working as a group.

    16. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Dumb cunt if you ask me. This is why you never put your life in the hand of a women; 9 time out of 10 they make bad decision all the time.

      This is why you never put your life in the hand of a man; 9 times out of 10 they chose to make sexist generalizations, rather than seeing people as individuals. </sarcasm>

    17. Re: Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other news, a law was enacted by some guys in Barcelona. Imagine that. People creating a rule to protect their litteral way of life.
      In the US, the police would have kettled them into a submit or die proposition. Good for Spain. This is how things should work everywhere.

    18. Re:Taxes? by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      No it is illogical. Its absolutely wrong on so many levels and ultimately isn't even good for the vendors.

      Think about it for two seconds and it should be obvious why this is deeply stupid.

      Enforcement issues:
      If you haven't the will or ability to enforce a law than its probably not a good law. Maybe because you can't know if the law is being broken without in most cases breaking other laws.

      Maybe because its something like this where the practice is common and accepted by the public. Enforcement quickly becomes capricious one guy gets away with the next guy gets tased because the cop doesn't like the look of him.

      In both cases the result is loss of respect for the law and office by the public.

      Political problems:
      The negotiations mean nothing if the laws don't actually change. The next time there is a terrorism scare, someone new takes office and decides to get tough on crime etc. They still can prosecute/persecute members of this union because no agreement between individuals even with officials ever really trumps criminal matters. We one entity has the power to seize assets or even jail the other their exists little real leverage.

      -----
      The right way to go about this is change the damn law. Design the law to target the high value targets. That way everyone actually can 'enjoy' the protection of the law. Enforcement won't be arbitrary and when it is recourse will be available.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    19. Re:Taxes? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, around here we have Canadian migrants complaining about our cell coverage...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    20. Re:Taxes? by Gliscameria · · Score: 1

      It's kind of amusing that I could see a libertarian making this exact same argument against these vendors.

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      X
    21. Re: Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you want to wait for a background check before they let you out of a burning building? Or out of the region of a Chernobyl style disaster?

    22. Re: Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Turkey is not a war zone. illegally crossing over to Greece on over capacity rubber boat is criminal, dumb and suicidal.

  3. Its no fun by fragMasterFlash · · Score: 1

    being an illegal alien

  4. So... by Threni · · Score: 1

    does that mean more crime in already crime stricken Barcelona, or less? I love the place but it needs a proper crackdown on pickpocketing, muggings and stabbings so that crime isn't the first thing people mention when you talk about the place.

    1. Re:So... by dkatana · · Score: 1

      Apart from their illegal trade most of these immigrants are not violent. There has been a few clashes with the police but the situation is calm now. Actually there is very little violent crime in Barcelona. Pickpocketing is an issue, but no more than in other popular tourist cities such as Paris and Rome.

    2. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are disingenuous. Barcelona is in the black list for tourism because the authorities do not pursue pickpocketing AT ALL, and have legalized it "de facto". They can steal your money in front of the thugs they hired as police because they will not do anything to stop them. There is no need to commit violent crime because delinquents like the Latin Kings have been approached by the local government, telling them to organize as an association so that the authorities can give them plenty of money in exchange of them not committing crimes. In sum, Barcelona sucks. Spain in general is a magnet for delinquents because the penal law was written from the perspective of criminals.

      The thieve's queen of Ada Colau has already happily stated that she hates tourists, and welcomes illegal delinquents instead. Never travel there if you have at least two brain cells.

    3. Re:So... by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      You can't be serious about the crime rate: "not worse than Rome or Paris". You _do_ realize how bad the street crime rates in these cites are, don't you?

      That besides: no, the Spanish might be as wet as fuck when it comes to non-violent crime, but I'm glad this doesn't hold for anything violent. The illegals know this -- they're not just refraining from violent crime because they are nice people...

    4. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      have you checked the list of nationalities in the prison system in spain?

      because there are way more foreigners in prison in spain than nationals, and violent crimes are THE thing that will put you in prison in spain most of the time

      non violent my ass

    5. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The thieve's queen of Ada Colau"

            You are just a sad coward. All other majors before Ada were politicians and were corrupt. Xavier Trias, before Ada, was completely corrupt and he was in the service of banks and big economical groups, not citizens. Ada was not a politician and spend all his life working for citizens right, and she continues now as a major.

      "Ada Colau has already happily stated that she hates tourists"

            False. Ada Colau stated that she worries about the grown without control that the last 20 years is making Barcelona citizens out of Barcelona. She stated she wants sustainable grown of tourism, and a equilibrium between citizens and visitors that makes happy both of them.

    6. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thieve's queen of Ada Colau

      The first movement of major Ada Colau was to reduce the salary of the major (-her own salary-) and the government from 107000 euros/year+extras to 2200 euros/month including extras. The opposition made this impossible but Ada Colau government keep the salary of 2200 euros/month and give the rest of the money of the salary to movements for social change and NGOs

    7. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thieve's queen of Ada Colau

      The first movement of Ada Colau as a major was to reduce the salary of the majors (-her own salary-) and city government from 107000euros/year+extras to 2200euros/month including extras. The other political parties opposition made this movement impossible, but Ada Colau government keep the 2200 euros/month salary and give the rest of the salary to movements for social change and NGOs.

  5. Europe and socialism deserve each other. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    'Nuff said.

  6. Europe rocks over USA, China and Russia by aglider · · Score: 1

    Could you do that somewhere else?
    Next step: legal union of pushers to negotiate with police.

    --
    Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
    1. Re:Europe rocks over USA, China and Russia by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 1

      Sorry? Isn't that what is happening in the USA? As I recall, cannabis is finally legal in some states. If you can choose between tolerated outlaws at least abiding some common sense and working with the police, or downright gansters being pushed into heavier and heavier organised crimes, I choose the dialog option.

      --
      Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
    2. Re:Europe rocks over USA, China and Russia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It **is** happening in the USA.

      12M illegal immigrants are "negotiating" with current politicians about being recognized, so they won't be deported if caught. All those people haven't been paying the same (if any) taxes all these years and have been living in an underground, cash-based, subculture inside the USA.

      I realize they are economic refuges in search of a better life, but that doesn't make their being in the USA legal. 100K+ immigrants are allowed legally into the USA annually. They filed the paperwork, passed the background checks, and were admitted legally. FANTASTIC! We love legal immigrants here. My neighbors are 1st generation LEGAL immigrants from Ukraine and India. Nice, hardworking, folks. I'm a 4th generation LEGAL immigrant. It is only the illegal immigrants who bother me.

    3. Re:Europe rocks over USA, China and Russia by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      More like 1mil+ legal immigrants per year:

      http://www.migrationpolicy.org...
      (Figure 2)

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  7. Barcelona == marxists by benjfowler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You gotta remember that the Catalans keep electing left-wing lunatics into the Generalitat and into the city government, so they're always doing crazy stuff like that.

    While the national government has a generally sensible policy of "not feeding the pigeons" with respect to illegals, the local government has always been full of ex-Communist and ex-Black Bloc lunatics.

    The other stupid thing they do? They see robbers, pickpockets and scammers (the majority who are foreign criminals) as "victims", and never prosecute them. They just fine them and throw them back out onto the street. Result? Some of the highest rates of street crime of any major city on Earth, which threatens to destroy Barcelona's one big earner -- the tourist and conference trade.

    The left-wingers don't care though: anybody who isn't white or local is a "victim", and therefore shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. The ironic racism of low expectations for brown people...

    1. Re:Barcelona == marxists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For the past 40 years the biggest party in Catalonia, and the one with most years of government, has been CiU. Which it's right-wing. Also the previous mayor of Barcelona, Xavier Trias, was from CiU.
      I dunno where you get your information.
      But, I have to oblige, that RIGHT NOW it's harder to see. 'cause the pro-independence parties of left, right, wing, middle, and the extremes, and ... are merging together in a unique coalition to push forward for independence.
      For the rest of the comments about the "national" government, which has broken the economy and it's close to broke the country itself and the pickpockets (you can find them everywhere in the world. If you fear them: stay at home) I will not comment. ;)

    2. Re:Barcelona == marxists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the most stupid thing I ever heard.

      I live in Barcelona (Catalonia) and the Generalitat government is right-wing. Why are you liying?

      And Barcelona city government is left-wing but not marxist, not ex-communist, not ex-Blakblock and not lunatics, but people that have spend all their lives working for people rights and to fight poverty. Does fighting poverty convert them into marxist, communist, blackblock lunatics?. Why are you liying again?

      The police, that is managed by right-wing Generalitat government is prosecuting pickpockets. It's the judges who put them in prison and then later are released into the street or deported to their countries if they don't have citizenship.

      I live in Barcelona, and I hate pickpockets, and I don't like really poor african illegal immigrants selling copies of bags made by really poor chinese illegal immigrants, but all the prosecution of illegal street vendors by the right-wing all this years didn't work. In fact, it grow. They don't want to sell drugs and pickpocketing, they don't want to starve, and they don't have any future coming back to their homes ... so let's see what we can do to fix it. Brutallity didn't work.

    3. Re:Barcelona == marxists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just to point out to give some context that in Spain, the "right-wing" is politically positioned to the left of US democrats, similar to the UK Labour Party.

    4. Re:Barcelona == marxists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is anyone of the people who help this comment to reach "Score:3, Insightful" actually from Barcelona? Catalonia? even Spain?

      Because it's not insightful, but stupid, and everybody who lives in Barcelona, left-wing or right-wing, knows that all what he says is false.

      So please, think again before giving +1. Slashdot is great because have some clever comments and some insightful moderators. Keep Slashdot great! Thanks

    5. Re:Barcelona == marxists by dywolf · · Score: 1

      stupid comment is stupid

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    6. Re:Barcelona == marxists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep Slashdot great

            Keep Slashdor clean from racists

      Benjfowler also said: what really excites me, is the chance to finally destroy Saudi Arabia. These worthless Bedouin brigands do and contribute nothing

  8. Manta ray by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    makes sense now.

  9. Live and let live by dhaen · · Score: 1
    Crime stricken, really? I recently spent 4 days there. No sign of anything different from any western city - except the free music festival. Felt comfortable walking around at any hour.

    Yes there are vendors, both local and migrant, selling the same old junk. But hey, live and let live.

    1. Re:Live and let live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the problem is people are NOT living, are barely surviving, the problem is theres a guy in a store that you just went in, that makes some money but when the taxes come to pay for all these illegals pouring in the country, he barely has money to eat so he has to be in the store 20 hours a day, There is more hungry spanish people now in spain than in the later years of francos regime. And that is pathetic, so much democracy, so much bullshit, but the country is a FAILED STATE, and people we have no cultural ties with at all, because these guys are not from south america, are coming to leech from it

  10. Have a huge meeting, round them up and deport them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have a huge meeting at a local hotel. Round these crooks up and deport them.

    Sorry - I've been to Barcelona and have seen these "street vendors" roll out their counterfit sunglasses for 20 seconds before rolling it back up because a cop looked there way.

    Arrest them all.

  11. what?! by bobaferret · · Score: 2

    You mean they couldn't get married before now?

    1. Re:what?! by WalrusSlayer · · Score: 1

      Dammit! Beat me to it.

  12. Ah! Cool! by Shoten · · Score: 1

    I suddenly understand where the "manta ray" got its name from :)

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    For your security, this post has been encrypted with ROT-13, twice.
  13. Re:Why? Not even the first. by TechkNighT_1337 · · Score: 1

    Here in Banana land, AKA Brazil, we have it too. the former director was murdered.

    --
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  14. tolerance of error by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, it doesn't belong on here, but considering that /. is free, I think error should be tolerated. We could pay, and get better submissions, but who would pay?