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First Legal Union of Illegal Street Vendors Created In Barcelona

Posted by samzenpus on from the join-the-guild dept.

dkatana writes: Street vendors across Barcelona's tourist districts last week created their own union to negotiate with city officials. Barcelona has a new mayor, and new policies dealing with the "Top Manta" (for the blankets — or mantas — they spread out on the sidewalk). The recently-elected left-leaning administration in this Mediterranean city is taking a new — and controversial — approach to this complex issue. They argue that the real fault is the government's for not having a more comprehensive immigration policy. Mayor Ada Colau has welcomed the newly created Popular Union for Street Vendors (Sindicato Popular de Vendedores Ambulantes), established by the illegal vendors themselves.

31 of 61 comments (clear)

  1. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    ... and this is on Slashdot because.....?

    1. Re:Why? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2

      Because it's kinda sorta an Über thing . . . do something illegal, and then blame the government because it is not legal.

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  2. Taxes? by itamihn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I, for one, welcome these street vendors. As long as they have all the permissions in order to open a business, respect trademarks, and pay taxes and rental of the space they use.

    1. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      .... And products sold are not counterfeit, they give invoices of products sold, with 15 day refund option, 2 year guarantee, etc.

      It is absolutely stupid that a union of ilegals can be legal. The only place in the world for such stupidity is my country.

    2. Re:Taxes? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 3

      In many countries, organisations can be declared illegal if the goal of that organisation is to commit illegal acts (by charter or in practice). That can be hard to prove, but it happens. Some motor clubs have been banned on those grounds. Conversely, a "guild of thieves" could well be legal if the members don't talk shop and if the organisation only has lawful goals, like legal aid to arrested thieves. (Be sure that they'd be under extreme scrutiny though). And that's as it should be: freedom of association is an important right.

      Does this union of street vendors pursue illegal goals, or are they striving for legalisation and do they wish to act as spokesperson for street vendors in discussions on the topic? It seems that it's the latter case. Setting aside the question of what the best way is to deal with these street vendors, the mayor wants to discuss this with them, and as such it makes sense to invite this union to the table.

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    3. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They are just poor _illegal_ migrant, trying to sell _counterfeit_ good, _scamming_ tourists if not _robbing_ them at knife point. Expecting them for respect the locals, their laws and customs is ignorant of the conditions they come from, oppressive and almost racist. Shame on you!

      OK, I can agree with most of what you said here, but claiming we're ignorant of the conditions they came from is fucking offensive. Countries are breaking their own laws to accept these people from war-ravaged nations or States of massive oppression. Believe me we know damn well of the conditions, and you can't break reporting enough to bias that into a mere nothing. Instead of focusing on the conditions they came from, how about we start waking up as to the conditions they're going to create in the aftermath. Governments certainly are at this point.

      As far as bringing along laws, well...you move to another country, you better learn to adapt. The entire justification of relocation at the macro level is because where they are leaving from is 100 times worse in just about every aspect. Don't complain. Laws are being broken by governments to assist you. Customs most countries will try and accommodate as long as they don't become intolerant of the interference it may cause.

      The key here is learn to adapt. Especially if you want to stay.

    4. Re:Taxes? by dargaud · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It reminds me of prostitution in my country: it's illegal, but there's the professional category for when you declare your taxes. So it's illegal but perfectly taxed. Talk about state hypocrisy. I don't know about pimp though.

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    5. Re:Taxes? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I suspect that this is also one of those situations where the fact that 'law' tends to have ways of bending to practicality is showing up.

      The activities of the street vendors are illegal, and some of them probably have pretty dubious immigration status; but the fact that they remain active, are quite numerous, and are visible enough to form a union suggests that the local authorities lack the will or ability to suppress their vending; and the national authorities the will or ability to process them all as vigorously as the law theoretically allows.

      Under those circumstances, it isn't terribly illogical for the mayor of Barcelona to be open to negotiations aimed at reducing the nuisances caused by street vendors in exchange for potential loosening of restrictions that are mostly theoretical or haphazardly and unevenly enforced at present.

      It always upsets people who cherish the idea that 'law' is somehow a matter of pure principle and above the sordid world of pragmatism and political horse-trading; but that doesn't make it any less true. Even when the ability of the state to enforce the law is relatively strong, pressure is applied by lobbying the political apparatus. When it is weak or partial, pragmatism can, and often does, result in the state(or its agents) reaching a compromise with the illegal sector that aims to give the less noxious elements some of what they want in exchange for cooperation, or at least non-resistance, in going after higher-value targets.

    6. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is what you heard every day since the migrant crisis went mainstream. You want to do background check on each individual? HOW DARE YOU BE INSENSITIVE TO THE CONDITION THEY COME FROM. THESE ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN! DID YOU HEARD THERE ARE WOMEN? WOMEN I SAID!

      Yes, it's like yelling. But this is how it goes. Then they shout 'racist' this, 'xenophobe' that...

    7. Re:Taxes? by _merlin · · Score: 1

      Because prostitutes, contrary to television shows, tend to be teenagers with few legal protections, most pimps are violent parasites.

      Definitely not true many places. The average prostitute in Australia is about 30, was introduced to the business by a friend around age 24, and doesn't plan to do this all her life. The average legal prostitute in Hong Kong is in her 30s or 40s, divorced, and probably going to be doing it until she can't make money that way any more. The average illegal prostitute in Hong Kong is 24, on a tourist visa, and has a kid back home she needs to support.

      Agree with you about pimps for the most part, they're a shady bunch you'd do best to stay away from. The female ones can be at least as bad as the male ones. Although some of the women running "massage parlours" who work themselves seem to be OK, but in that case they're not really a pimp I guess, just a team lead.

      Yet pimping is considered a lesser crime than the subsequent prostitution.

      That isn't actually true in many jurisdictions, such as UK and Hong Kong. In both cases prostitution is legal under certain conditions (e.g. not soliciting in public, no more than one woman working out of a single place of business, etc.) but pimping is completely illegal. The laws in these jurisdictions are designed to punish people exploiting women, rather than punishing women selling their bodies.

    8. Re:Taxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Dumb cunt if you ask me. This is why you never put your life in the hand of a women; 9 time out of 10 they make bad decision all the time.

      This is why you never put your life in the hand of a man; 9 times out of 10 they chose to make sexist generalizations, rather than seeing people as individuals. </sarcasm>

    9. Re:Taxes? by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      No it is illogical. Its absolutely wrong on so many levels and ultimately isn't even good for the vendors.

      Think about it for two seconds and it should be obvious why this is deeply stupid.

      Enforcement issues:
      If you haven't the will or ability to enforce a law than its probably not a good law. Maybe because you can't know if the law is being broken without in most cases breaking other laws.

      Maybe because its something like this where the practice is common and accepted by the public. Enforcement quickly becomes capricious one guy gets away with the next guy gets tased because the cop doesn't like the look of him.

      In both cases the result is loss of respect for the law and office by the public.

      Political problems:
      The negotiations mean nothing if the laws don't actually change. The next time there is a terrorism scare, someone new takes office and decides to get tough on crime etc. They still can prosecute/persecute members of this union because no agreement between individuals even with officials ever really trumps criminal matters. We one entity has the power to seize assets or even jail the other their exists little real leverage.

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      The right way to go about this is change the damn law. Design the law to target the high value targets. That way everyone actually can 'enjoy' the protection of the law. Enforcement won't be arbitrary and when it is recourse will be available.

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    10. Re:Taxes? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, around here we have Canadian migrants complaining about our cell coverage...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

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    11. Re:Taxes? by Gliscameria · · Score: 1

      It's kind of amusing that I could see a libertarian making this exact same argument against these vendors.

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      X
  3. Its no fun by fragMasterFlash · · Score: 1

    being an illegal alien

  4. So... by Threni · · Score: 1

    does that mean more crime in already crime stricken Barcelona, or less? I love the place but it needs a proper crackdown on pickpocketing, muggings and stabbings so that crime isn't the first thing people mention when you talk about the place.

    1. Re:So... by dkatana · · Score: 1

      Apart from their illegal trade most of these immigrants are not violent. There has been a few clashes with the police but the situation is calm now. Actually there is very little violent crime in Barcelona. Pickpocketing is an issue, but no more than in other popular tourist cities such as Paris and Rome.

    2. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are disingenuous. Barcelona is in the black list for tourism because the authorities do not pursue pickpocketing AT ALL, and have legalized it "de facto". They can steal your money in front of the thugs they hired as police because they will not do anything to stop them. There is no need to commit violent crime because delinquents like the Latin Kings have been approached by the local government, telling them to organize as an association so that the authorities can give them plenty of money in exchange of them not committing crimes. In sum, Barcelona sucks. Spain in general is a magnet for delinquents because the penal law was written from the perspective of criminals.

      The thieve's queen of Ada Colau has already happily stated that she hates tourists, and welcomes illegal delinquents instead. Never travel there if you have at least two brain cells.

    3. Re:So... by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      You can't be serious about the crime rate: "not worse than Rome or Paris". You _do_ realize how bad the street crime rates in these cites are, don't you?

      That besides: no, the Spanish might be as wet as fuck when it comes to non-violent crime, but I'm glad this doesn't hold for anything violent. The illegals know this -- they're not just refraining from violent crime because they are nice people...

  5. Europe rocks over USA, China and Russia by aglider · · Score: 1

    Could you do that somewhere else?
    Next step: legal union of pushers to negotiate with police.

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    1. Re:Europe rocks over USA, China and Russia by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 1

      Sorry? Isn't that what is happening in the USA? As I recall, cannabis is finally legal in some states. If you can choose between tolerated outlaws at least abiding some common sense and working with the police, or downright gansters being pushed into heavier and heavier organised crimes, I choose the dialog option.

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    2. Re:Europe rocks over USA, China and Russia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It **is** happening in the USA.

      12M illegal immigrants are "negotiating" with current politicians about being recognized, so they won't be deported if caught. All those people haven't been paying the same (if any) taxes all these years and have been living in an underground, cash-based, subculture inside the USA.

      I realize they are economic refuges in search of a better life, but that doesn't make their being in the USA legal. 100K+ immigrants are allowed legally into the USA annually. They filed the paperwork, passed the background checks, and were admitted legally. FANTASTIC! We love legal immigrants here. My neighbors are 1st generation LEGAL immigrants from Ukraine and India. Nice, hardworking, folks. I'm a 4th generation LEGAL immigrant. It is only the illegal immigrants who bother me.

    3. Re:Europe rocks over USA, China and Russia by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      More like 1mil+ legal immigrants per year:

      http://www.migrationpolicy.org...
      (Figure 2)

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  6. Barcelona == marxists by benjfowler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You gotta remember that the Catalans keep electing left-wing lunatics into the Generalitat and into the city government, so they're always doing crazy stuff like that.

    While the national government has a generally sensible policy of "not feeding the pigeons" with respect to illegals, the local government has always been full of ex-Communist and ex-Black Bloc lunatics.

    The other stupid thing they do? They see robbers, pickpockets and scammers (the majority who are foreign criminals) as "victims", and never prosecute them. They just fine them and throw them back out onto the street. Result? Some of the highest rates of street crime of any major city on Earth, which threatens to destroy Barcelona's one big earner -- the tourist and conference trade.

    The left-wingers don't care though: anybody who isn't white or local is a "victim", and therefore shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. The ironic racism of low expectations for brown people...

    1. Re:Barcelona == marxists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For the past 40 years the biggest party in Catalonia, and the one with most years of government, has been CiU. Which it's right-wing. Also the previous mayor of Barcelona, Xavier Trias, was from CiU.
      I dunno where you get your information.
      But, I have to oblige, that RIGHT NOW it's harder to see. 'cause the pro-independence parties of left, right, wing, middle, and the extremes, and ... are merging together in a unique coalition to push forward for independence.
      For the rest of the comments about the "national" government, which has broken the economy and it's close to broke the country itself and the pickpockets (you can find them everywhere in the world. If you fear them: stay at home) I will not comment. ;)

    2. Re:Barcelona == marxists by dywolf · · Score: 1

      stupid comment is stupid

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  7. Live and let live by dhaen · · Score: 1
    Crime stricken, really? I recently spent 4 days there. No sign of anything different from any western city - except the free music festival. Felt comfortable walking around at any hour.

    Yes there are vendors, both local and migrant, selling the same old junk. But hey, live and let live.

  8. what?! by bobaferret · · Score: 2

    You mean they couldn't get married before now?

    1. Re:what?! by WalrusSlayer · · Score: 1

      Dammit! Beat me to it.

  9. Ah! Cool! by Shoten · · Score: 1

    I suddenly understand where the "manta ray" got its name from :)

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  10. Re:Why? Not even the first. by TechkNighT_1337 · · Score: 1

    Here in Banana land, AKA Brazil, we have it too. the former director was murdered.

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