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Makers Compete To Produce US Army's Next Official Handgun (military.com)
HughPickens.com writes: After 30 years in use, the U.S. Army's official handgun, the Beretta M9 pistol, is being retired. The AP reports that firearms manufacturers are competing for a rare chance to sell the U.S. Army a new handgun that would replace the current Cold War-era model. Critics say the M9 is too bulky for small-handed shooters. Troops who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan complain it's not as hard-hitting as they would like, and it can't easily accommodate the accessories now common in the civilian firearms market, such as swappable gun-sights or gun-mounted lights. "It's a little one size-fits-most" says Rodney Briggs.. "It's been around for a really, really long time, and it's just old and outdated." Read more, below.
Hugh Pickens continues: Army has a lengthy list of requirements. Among them, it wants a handgun with an adjustable grip that can easily fit large or small hands. That way, shooters don't have to adjust their grip mid-fight to operate hard-to-reach buttons or levers. The gun should accommodate sights that make it easier to shoot in low light. It should have a rail on which soldiers can easily attach additional equipment, like infrared pointers. The military also wants a gun that can be equipped with a suppressor, which muffles the sound of gunshots. Beretta intends to enter a new pistol called the APX into the competition. The new gun is a major engineering departure from the M9. It has a polymer frame like more recent handguns and can meet the Army's other requirements. Beretta has publicly complained that the government never formally requested efforts to improve its M9, which the company said is a standard procedure for upgrading platforms. "If you look at the history for a variety of weapons, you'll find all along we'll have used spiral development, product improvement. Where was the requirement they notify prime contractor with an opportunity to fix the problem?" says Howard Yellen, a military adviser for Beretta.
Hugh Pickens continues: Army has a lengthy list of requirements. Among them, it wants a handgun with an adjustable grip that can easily fit large or small hands. That way, shooters don't have to adjust their grip mid-fight to operate hard-to-reach buttons or levers. The gun should accommodate sights that make it easier to shoot in low light. It should have a rail on which soldiers can easily attach additional equipment, like infrared pointers. The military also wants a gun that can be equipped with a suppressor, which muffles the sound of gunshots. Beretta intends to enter a new pistol called the APX into the competition. The new gun is a major engineering departure from the M9. It has a polymer frame like more recent handguns and can meet the Army's other requirements. Beretta has publicly complained that the government never formally requested efforts to improve its M9, which the company said is a standard procedure for upgrading platforms. "If you look at the history for a variety of weapons, you'll find all along we'll have used spiral development, product improvement. Where was the requirement they notify prime contractor with an opportunity to fix the problem?" says Howard Yellen, a military adviser for Beretta.
NATO was the reason we left the .45. It would still have the same or worse issue with small handed shooters (what are they doing in the army shouldn't they be making my sandwich?)
If the US buys a non-NATO standard chambered pistol it is likely that other NATO countries would likely also look at the new pistol/round because none of them have any real affinity to 9MM.
I was in the USMC right at the switch from the 1911 to the M9.
Problems with the M9:
- Fragile.
- Trigger return spring easily lost when grips removed for cleaning (this renders the weapon useless).
- 9mm, not exactly a hard-hitting round.
- Locking block fractures and cracks. Not a Browning link/linkless tilt barrel design, so unnecessarily complicated.
- Magazines too fragile compared to 1911 magazines.
Good things:
- Accurate
- Easily controlled during rapid fire
Short of innovations like those Glock brought to the table over three decades ago, the semi automatic pistol has not changed much in the last century, and the previous standard service pistol of the US military served for almost three quarters of a century (and STILL is the preferred sidearm of those who kill people and break things for a living). The standard issue rifle has been so for more than half a century.
30 years does not seem especially long for something like this.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Aren't reliability and weight big concerns with the M9?
They're big concerns with the 1911, too. Even a commander-style pistol is still plenty heavy. And the 1911 has extra stuff to go wrong, especially if you load it up with an extra safety as Kimber does (along with many others.)
I'm not sure why they don't just switch to a Glock in .45. Cheap, durable, repairable, cost-effective, and very reliable.
Well, they cited the issue of fitting the hands of smaller shooters, so in the modern day none of these firearms are really applicable. They should probably be looking at a SIG.
The importance of the sidearm is decreasing in warfare, so if you're at the point where you need to use one, you'd probably rather have .45.
H&K M&P .45, then. The trigger is considered to be not that great, but there are mods that improve it, so perhaps with a little revision it would make a nice piece. Three grip sizes, external extractor. However, they're going to want to stick with 9mm because of the cost consideration, and the modern style of never using one bullet when five will do.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
A gen 4 Glock comes with multiple backstraps --- I can pick the one I want and get the hand size I want. My hands are too small for a gen 3 Glock 20 or 21 but can grip a gen 4 21 with ease.
Finding God in a Dog
all urban legend.
Look it up with experts who keep real stats on actual shootings, military 9mm vs 45 .ACP the 115 gr. 9mm is slightly MORE effective than 230 gr, 45 hardball.
And neither one very good compared to hollow point.
I also don't like the extreme variability in weight between the gun fully loaded and when it gets near empty
Yeah, I hate having 17 chances to hit my target instead of 7. What a pain in the ass, eh?
Seriously though, in a defensive encounter the last thing on my mind is "Oh no, my gun is getting lighter."
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Yes, they lowered the require amount of pull ups for the two women.
Really? And where is your proof that they did? By the way, there are no "pull-up" requirements for Ranger School. It is "chin-ups" and the requirement is 6 for the Ranger Physical Fitness Test (RPFT).
Second, I didn't realize the entirety of the Ranger School was chin-ups. I mean is that what they did for 61 days in Ranger School? That navigating, combat tactics, mission planning, and airborne have nothing to do with Ranger School. It was all chin-ups.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
I carry a sidearm with interchangable backstraps (the S&W M&P). You turn and pull out the locking pin (which can also be used to flip the sear disconnect for field stripping), pull off the current backstrap, insert the new one, and reinsert and twist the locking pin. That's 3 parts *total*, including both backstraps, 4 if you include all three standard backstraps in the count. The different backstrap options also include varying palm swell which make the gun fit your hand even better.
It really *is* as simple as ageoffri suggested. The '3 parts' he was referring to were a backstrap and 2 side grip panels. As S&W has demonstrated, it can be done with *one* piece being replaced.
20 round standard mag and modern as all hell. The small caliber/high velocity ammo (same principle as the 5.56 AR rifles) hits just as hard if not harder than .45 ACP/9mm/whatever if you take into account that the military cannot use hollowpoints.
As a trauma surgeon I have kept a tally of all the GSWs that I and my partners took care of. .45? We have less than 4%
In the past 5 years we managed to save greater than 75% of people shot with a 9mm.
Guess what, survivors from a
And for the record the absolute numbers are statistically significant.
I don't want to divulge any more details.
I own a G21 Gen 4