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Is Too Much Choice Stressing Us Out? (theguardian.com)

An anonymous reader writes: In the decades following World War 2, there was a dramatic expansion in choices for consumers. Where before there were only a few brands of bread, now there were dozens. Marketers were relentless in trying to fill every niche, to capture every last market segment. But in the 1990s and 2000s, we started to realize that this wasn't inherently a good thing. Choice paralysis demonstrably exists. It's made us start asking questions like: do we really need 30 types of jam on a store shelf? Is there a good reason for a firm to offer over 150 different pension plans? It turns out, no. Employees are much less likely to actually choose a plan when confronted with so many. In worrying about finding the best choice, they accidentally pick what is by far the worst: nothing. Barry Schwartz, a psychologist who helped bring this idea to the fore, has been advocating for less choice, and offers this suggestion: "The secret to happiness is low expectations."

56 of 358 comments (clear)

  1. Capitalism by Stuarticus · · Score: 5, Funny

    Relentless growth relies on a large subset of the buying public being able to make poor decisions on what to buy, then having to replace that item shortly thereafter. This choice reduction seems like some commie nonsense to me.

    --
    If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    1. Re:Capitalism by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The poor choices large subsets have made on behalf of everyone unfortunatly have included communism in the past, leading to just one brand of bread, available for just an 8 hour wait in a city block length line.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    2. Re: Capitalism by RabidReindeer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In Victorian times, you weren't really respectable unless you had a cabinet full of every imaginable sort of jam, jelly and marmalade. Often with specialized silverware to go with them. So Choice Overload is hardly anything new.

      A lot of the TFA "brand proliferation" is because before about 1930 or so, bakeries were local (when you didn't just bake at home). Roads weren't that great, transportation costs were high. No long-haul truckers, and probably the railroads weren't cost-effective for anything as cheap as bread. Now we may have lots of different brands, but many of them are from 6 states away or more.

      It's true. I read the other day that a grocery store circa 1960 carried about 7000 distinct products, versus about 40,000 in modern-day stores, including a lot of international imports like genuine D.O.P. Parmesan cheese for no more than $15/lb and often less.

      And it's true. I have myself been bewildered when confronting a new product that comes in a hundred different brands and varieties. Still, we manage to get by. If you need it bad enough, you'll eventually grab something and run.

    3. Re:Capitalism by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Russia was industrialized before the Communists. If they accelerated the process, the problem is that they also committed genocide in the process. Not just modern "faux genocide" but the real thing where body counts are in the millions and populations never quite recover.

      The change to communism really didn't alter the nature of Russian society as basically feudal. It just changed the identities of those in power. The same goes for post-communist Russia.

      No choices is a key feature of communism however. The central planning by people that think they are smarter than anyone else leads to the failure to address even basic hygiene.

      The "chaos and confusion" are a necessary consequence of an economic system that will actually meet all of your needs.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    4. Re:Capitalism by GLMDesigns · · Score: 2

      Which monopolies exist without the force of law?

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    5. Re: Capitalism by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      Honestly, I think this "overload" idea is ridiculous. I *like* having lots of choices for jellies. At most grocery stores, all the regular jelly brands like Smucker's are nasty crap full of HFCS and just have poor taste and quality in general. (HFCS does that, it doesn't taste like regular sugar; HFCS soda similarly tastes crappy.) But when a big selection, I can find some high-quality alternative, usually from France. And these days, it doesn't even cost very much, maybe a dollar or two more than the shitty Smucker's. As for being "bewildered", it's not hard, just look over your choices and try one. If you were choosing a $30,000+ car, then yes, I can understand wanting to make sure you're not making a bad choice. But if you're getting a $4 jar of jelly, how bad can it be? (This is another reason to pay extra for the good stuff; it's very unlikely it'll be shitty, and it just isn't worth saving $1 for something like that and then not wanting to eat it later. And at least for me jelly isn't something I go through a lot of anyway, I might get one jar every few months.

    6. Re: Capitalism by PhotoJim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And every aisle too. Not just on islands. :)

    7. Re: Capitalism by Zorpheus · · Score: 2

      Washing powder. Just look at the list of Procter & Gamble products: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    8. Re: Capitalism by vtcodger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Personally, I find that the only time choice is a problem is when all of the options presented to me are inadequate and I need to try to select the least bad. Happens a lot with computer stuff and when voting in general elections, not so much at the grocery store or hardware store.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
  2. Choice paralysis by rmdingler · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I've noticed this when presenting too many options to a customer for a solution to a dilemma.

    Often, it seems what they really need is an informed third party to assist them in whittling down their options to a manageable choice threshold.

    Looking at you America: 30 types of jam, 60 fragrances of febreze, and still two political parties... See? They're keeping it simple for us.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

    1. Re:Choice paralysis by The-Ixian · · Score: 3, Interesting

      At my place of employment we use what we call an executive summary.

      This summary lays out 3 options maximum even if there are many more.

      If the customer wants to then discuss and make changes, we are happy to go into the weeds at that point.

      We have learned that decision makers are generally not very good at decision making and less options lead to a sale more often.

      --
      My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
    2. Re:Choice paralysis by Nidi62 · · Score: 2

      Two political parties are a sign of a mature democracy.

      Look up Anthony Down's median voter theorem.

      I wouldn't call it a sign of a mature democracy(in fact, in that article, "democracy" only shows up in book/article titles). Two political parties is instead the ultimate result of a "first past the post" system. It is assumed that the 2 parties will centralize themselves in order to garner as much support as possible. Unfortunately with the way primaries work in the US, it seems that our 2 parties seems to gravitate towards the fringes of their respective party as those are the ones who control the primaries. This feeds into the extremely adversarial nature of our current political environment.

      I much rather prefer proportional representation, specifically single transferable vote (STV). You can vote for your party's supplied preference list or rank your own preferences, and with minimum vote thresholds it reduces the power of fringe groups. Of course, this would not really work for executive elections, but it works very well for legislative elections and generally leads to coalition governments which would be much more preferable than having 2 parties who simply refuse to work together.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    3. Re:Choice paralysis by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      At my place of employment we use what we call an executive summary.

      This summary lays out 3 options maximum even if there are many more.

      Is that because the executives can only count to three?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  3. Too many choices is an artificial problem by mysidia · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Whenever we don't have many choice, for example: High Speed Internet and Cable TV, is a virtual monopoly or duopoly.

    We get gouged on pricing, and shoddy service.

  4. No. You only have to choose once by HalAtWork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And then you develop what's called a "preference". There's also this social thing called "word of mouth" that you can use to communicate benefits. Also, stores/shops usually carry a selection, not a complete catalog of everything on the planet.

    Choice is good, and the good news is you're not locked in. If you don't like it, you can try again the next time, and maybe even get a reimbursement from a quality guarantee, many products have this. If you just don't have the time to get informed and need to make a rush decision, there are even many review sites that offer a meta score and you can just pick something from the top of the list and get a quick bluirb that will give you a bearing.

    Or just go with your gut.

  5. choices in jam (and other things) by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Personally, I can get by just fine with three choices in jam.

    Most everyone I know can manage with three to four choices in jam.

    But they're not the SAME three to four choices!

    So by the time your grocery is stocking everyone's three to four choices, it has 100 or so different things on the shelf.

    Ditto bread, meat, veggies, soap, shampoo, etc.

    IOW, a large number of choices isn't a bad thing. Unless you're just too stupid to be allowed to make choices in the first place....

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    1. Re:choices in jam (and other things) by Z00L00K · · Score: 2

      And it doesn't really matter if you have 33 choices of jam, it's not stressing, it's actually a relief.

      The stressful choices are when you must pick one of a number of alternatives in a limited timeframe - which way shall I drive to work, where shall I park my car when shopping etc. Things where you don't have full control.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  6. Big difference. by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is a HUGE difference between "30 types of jam" and "over 150 different pension plans".

    At the most basic level, you will know that you picked the "wrong" jam in the near future and still be able to get a different one.

    With a pension plan you won't really know until it is too late and you won't have any option.

    Which is why most of us do NOT have a problem picking up a loaf of bread and a jar of jam.

  7. I disagree with the premise by QuietLagoon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...In worrying about finding the best choice, they accidentally pick what is by far the worst: nothing....

    What is "accidental" and "worst" about picking nothing. To me that means that the person didn't really want/need the item in the first place, and the plethora of choices led the person to make the correct choice, ie., nothing.

    1. Re:I disagree with the premise by RuffMasterD · · Score: 5, Funny

      The sheer number of comments to this story stressed me so much that I couldn't decide where to spend my moderator points. So I left a comment here instead. You're welcome.

      --
      Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
    2. Re:I disagree with the premise by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I disagree also, based on observation: the worst consumer experiences most of us have are in situations where we have NO choice. Examples are airlines, cable service, and pharma.

  8. Low expectations? by HalAtWork · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I have this friend that believes he'll never be disappointed if he just thinks the worst is going to happen at any given moment. Cynical as fuck but swears he is constantly pleasantly surprised. This just sounds like a fucked up way to live. Imagine the fear that must rule you if you need to go around expecting the lowest lows in order to be happy.

    I don't think low expectations are the way to go, personally. Maybe don't expect anything at all either way. Stop trying to predict and frame everything. Stop managing your expectations altogether and just live in the moment. Focus on what you're doing now and try to get the most out of it. If you're letting bad jam bring you down then you need to step back and calm down. Forget the jam and read a book or start a new hobby.

  9. Re:The secret to happiness is low expectations by Nidi62 · · Score: 3, Funny

    This was my Mantra even before I was married, 30+ years ago. Take holidays. My wife has this Disney-esque image of how it will be. Mine is more like a bad, indie short. I am never disappointed or surprised.

    I always say if you aim for the trees and miss, you have a lot less far to fall than if you aimed for the stars.

    --
    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  10. Re:Capitalism and cripple-to-option by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It is not the amount of choice that is freaking us out, it is the amount of effort to get to know what the choice actually is and how to get it. Especially due to capitalism, full products are deliberately crippled to plunder the customers. Nowadays, you can have a full-time job managing a company's software licenses. And the bigger the manufacturer, the less sense the license model has.

    --
    Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
  11. If you only choose once, then what's the point? by dlenmn · · Score: 2

    If you only make a single choice (and then simply stick with the choice), then your choice is basically arbitrary and defeats the purpose of having a wide variety of options. That's one of the arguments in the article: more choices aren't always better.

    Word of mouth is also useless if others are making arbitrary choices and then simply sticking with them. It reminds me of a comic's (forget who) routine about getting advice on traveling. People who had been to a city once and only eaten at one restaurant would heartily recommend the restaurant even though they had no baseline for comparison. ("Yeah, I know this great restaurant in Toledo!")

    Now, maybe you're making the argument that you only have to go through the process of choosing once (which will involve testing more than one selection), but few people do that. Mostly, they do what they decide above and just try a variety or two, say meh, and arbitrarily stick with their choice. How many varieties of peanut butter have most people tried? I'm guessing that mostly people have tried a smooth and a chunky (and maybe a natural), but I doubt many people have really compared brands. Why do "choosy moms choose JIF"? (Their advertising slogan.) Because moms have enough shit to do, so at one point in the past, they grabbed a jar of JIF and then just keep getting it because why not?

    Arbitrary choices are not a good solution.

    1. Re:If you only choose once, then what's the point? by EmeraldBot · · Score: 2

      If you only make a single choice (and then simply stick with the choice), then your choice is basically arbitrary and defeats the purpose of having a wide variety of options. That's one of the arguments in the article: more choices aren't always better.

      Word of mouth is also useless if others are making arbitrary choices and then simply sticking with them. It reminds me of a comic's (forget who) routine about getting advice on traveling. People who had been to a city once and only eaten at one restaurant would heartily recommend the restaurant even though they had no baseline for comparison. ("Yeah, I know this great restaurant in Toledo!")

      Now, maybe you're making the argument that you only have to go through the process of choosing once (which will involve testing more than one selection), but few people do that. Mostly, they do what they decide above and just try a variety or two, say meh, and arbitrarily stick with their choice. How many varieties of peanut butter have most people tried? I'm guessing that mostly people have tried a smooth and a chunky (and maybe a natural), but I doubt many people have really compared brands. Why do "choosy moms choose JIF"? (Their advertising slogan.) Because moms have enough shit to do, so at one point in the past, they grabbed a jar of JIF and then just keep getting it because why not?

      Arbitrary choices are not a good solution.

      And a world with only JIF as opposed to other brands would be better... How? If you really are overwhelmed with options, go ahead, make an arbitrary selection and stick with it if you like it. You don't have to participate in it. As someone who likes everything " just so" however, I highly appreciate the ability to buy from a large number of brands in order to achieve a favorite taste. You have nothing to lose with a colorful and diverse selection, as people would just wind up with the same choices they'd make if there was only a single choice; but in a monolithic world, people such as myself are far more miserable if something's not right and I have no way to fix it.

      --
      "Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
  12. Luxury vs necessity by RogueyWon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think a big factor here is whether the choice relates to a luxury or a necessity. And to be clear, I'm going to stretch the definition of "necessity" slightly, to include things such as pension plans. In fact, the words "luxury" and "necessity" aren't really quite the right ones here, but I can't think of better ones.

    When it comes to necessities, what we generally want is security. We want to find something that works for us fairly quickly and to then have the mental security that comes from being able to stick with it. This is why so few people switch banks or utility providers, even though they could often save money by doing so. Being bombarded with options when buying something you need (rather than something you want) is stressful. You'll be likely to fixate more on the downsides of making the wrong choice rather than the upsides of making the right choice.

    When it comes to luxuries, on the other hand, we tend to like choice. If we can afford high end food products, we like to be able to choose from lots of different varieties. If we're buying a luxury car, we want to be able to pick and choose options. Having choices makes us excited about our shiny new purchase.

    The complicating factor here is that the line between necessities and luxuries isn't static and won't be the same for everybody. If you have a lot of disposable income, you will probably approach your food-shop as though you're shopping for luxuries. If you're struggling to make ends meet, you will be firmly in necessity mode (I've been in both camps).

    It's not even all about income. I can illustrate this with a comparison between myself and my mother. We both actually have fairly similar levels of disposable income, but our interests and priorities are very different.

    I'm a big PC user; I enjoy gaming on a high end PC. I bought a full new PC recently. Deciding I couldn't be bothered with a self-build this time, I looked around for UK-based vendors who would allow me to customise my build extensively before they put it together. I took time to do my research, picked out the case, the motherboard, the CPU, the RAM, the graphics card and all the rest. And yes, I quite enjoyed this. I chose the vendor I did largely because they offered me this degree of control, rather than an off the peg system.

    My mother, by contrast, does not like PCs. She needs one, but she doesn't like that fact and doesn't treat it as anything more than a tool. When her old laptop died and she needed a replacement, she found the degree of choice available first confusing and then infuriating. We eventually solved it after I looked around for 3 acceptable options and narrowed the choice down to those for her ("this one costs a bit more but has a bigger screen, that one costs a bit less but might be a bit slow to start up").

    Flip things around to the last time we bought new sofas; I spent an afternoon browsing online for something that was about the right size, reasonably cheap and not a horrible colour clash for my living room. My mother spent a month and a half of weekends walking around show-rooms and comparing textile samples.

    We each believe that the other is completely mad. But what it really comes down to is a value judgement over "luxury" vs "necessity" and how that impacts on your approach to choice.

  13. Re:Shampoo by The-Ixian · · Score: 2

    Sounds like you weren't using the right shampoo...

    You chose.....unwisely.

    --
    My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
  14. Re:The blindingly obvious by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Informative

    I think that this is the main reason that Apple is doing so well. People understand exactly what they are getting when they choose an Apple product. You want a phone, You get to choose from 1 of 2 screen sizes, and 3-4 options for the amount of storage. That's a very easy decision to make. Same goes for their laptops. You get to choose ultra-thin or regular, then you get a few different options for screen size, and then you get 2 or 3 options that actually affect performance. Compare this to going to Dell, Lenovo, or HP. Whereas Apple might give you 10 options in total. The other guys will have 50 or more options to choose from.

    Don't believe it's really that many, I just went to Dell's site. they have 3 lines for home use, without even getting into chrome books, they are Inspiron, XPS, and Alienware.

    Inspiron has 3000, 5000, and 7000 series. Each of those has 4 different screen sizes. Each of those 4 screen sizes has on average 3 different performance/spec options. So, just from the Inspiron line, we have 3x4x3 options to choose from. That's 36 options. Alienware is a little more sane at only 16 options total, and XPS has 8 additional options.

    That's a total of 60 options. And that's only looking at the "home" oriented laptops. I didn't dig down, but from the looks of it, there's even more choice in there. There is probably at least over 100 laptops to choose from when getting a Dell.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  15. Re:Welcome to communism! by willworkforbeer · · Score: 2

    Choice getting you down? Are you paralyzed by the array of different breads available at the store? Well have I got the solution for you, friend: Bread Lines! Everyone waits in one long line, and you get handed bread. "What kind?" you ask? Sometimes it's rye, sometimes it's pumpernickel, sometimes it's nothing at all! The important thing is you don't have to worry. Let the State worry for you.

    Psshh. You bread eaters sure do whine a lot. What with your warm social breadline networks, and your rotating flavors of bread. Show off.

    Now the starvation economy, there's where choice isn't a problem. http://www.ibtimes.com/amid-no...

    --
    Pretending this is my office full of bitter coworkers..
  16. Too few is bad, but so is too many by dlenmn · · Score: 2

    The idea is that there is an optimum amount of choice: we definitely need choices, but there is such a thing as too much choice. This shouldn't be a surprise: there's an optimal amount of everything, and the optimal amount is usually finite.

    So yes, we need more choices in high speed internet. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to have too many choices; it's just hard to imagine since we're used to having too few.

    1. Re:Too few is bad, but so is too many by sjames · · Score: 2

      The problem isn't choices, it's confusing choices. Like when just one competitor has 10 'plans' with a dizzying array of rules and service levels (each with nasty gotchas) and the other competitors each have their own dizzying array and none of the advertising compares apples to apples.

  17. I vote for many choices, but good filters by King_TJ · · Score: 2

    When you start talking about problems such as the company offering 100 pension plans? Your problem isn't that the employee has too many options/choices. The problem is that the company didn't do enough homework of their own to weed out the inferior options. When my employer tells me they made a certain selection for our healthcare provider, our life insurance provider, or anything else related to the benefits offered -- I assume they made an effort to find the best possible value for the dollar spent. Maybe they could have chosen better than they did, and maybe not. But the point is, they tried to apply a "filter" and make a sensible decision. (Why wouldn't you, since you want your benefits package to look attractive compared with your competition?)

    Every time we use the web, we're presented with literally hundreds of millions of "options" ... yet we're not overwhelmed to the point where we just give up trying to find content we need. That's because we have really powerful search engines like Google we use as part of the process. They act as our filters.

  18. If, for what I wish was the last time by rsilvergun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    China and the Soviet Union are not, were not and never were Communist. They were fascist dictatorships that happen to borrow rhetoric from popularists like Karl Marx. Jeez, it's 2015. Do we still believe in McCarthyism? Maybe if it weighed the same as a duck...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:If, for what I wish was the last time by GLMDesigns · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Keep believing your rhetoric. The communist ideal will never occur by the rule of law. You can have your communist utopia but not if you have to FORCE others to live by your ideals. As not all people want to live in such a system you have two choices: do as China and Russia did and try to force others to obey (create a homo sovieticus); or have a community of like-minded people and not be coercive in your approach. (In other words you don't use laws to institute your ideal world).

      Should you force others to follow you then you will once again create the fascist dictatorship that you think has nothing to do with communism.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    2. Re:If, for what I wish was the last time by dunkelfalke · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, even officially, USSR never was communist. They have considered themselves socialist with communism being a long-term goal (because even Marx basically stated that communism is only possible in a post-scarcity society).

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    3. Re:If, for what I wish was the last time by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      I think the most annoying thing about communists is they have these grand ideas that they think everybody will just magically adopt once they see it. Except even when people do see it and do adopt it, they always realize just how crappy it actually is. A perfect example of this is groups like the Icarians that eventually just disbanded once they realized that not everybody puts the same commitment into their work, and thus rewarding different people differently is not only justified, but necessary. However since communism offers no means of that (remember, equality is basically forced) then the more productive people eventually get fed up with it and want to leave.

      With groups like the Icarians, leaving is easy. However in the case of a nation, when talented people leave, the country falls into chaos, so they need to build Berlin walls, and pretend that it's to keep bad people out, when in reality it's to keep good people from escaping.

    4. Re:If, for what I wish was the last time by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

      You can believe that you can force people to follow your communist ideology (like we in America force people not to violate patents) while not thinking that it will necessarily result in a fascist dictatorship. You can also believe that fascist dictators called themselves communist for PR purposes. There's no real conflict there.

      Now, you may want to pick on his specific examples. But he never made a generalized claim, but rather a claim about China and Russia^H^H^H^H^H^H the USSR. And, if you want to hang your mutual argument about a single claim, I'm going to say your initial position of "We should trust Mao and Stalin to be honest about their intentions" is far weaker than his of "Mao and Stalin were power-hungry lying asshats"

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    5. Re:If, for what I wish was the last time by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And no, the US is not in any way, shape, or form, definable as socialist (socialism is defined as the state owning the means of production, employing the workers, and setting prices.) Not even a little bit. We're actually pure free market capitalist.

      Facts contradict your belief. For example, about 40% of our national spending is done by the government, so that part isn't "pure free market". Employment is strongly regulated and restricted, with minimum wages in many places, and limits on who you can hire and fire. Health insurance, health care, auto insurance, and home insurance are also highly regulated, and people are not permitted to engage in free market transactions. Both businesses and landlord face strong restrictions on who they can and cannot do business with. Our banking and financial system is highly regulated, with many forms of financial transactions simply being illegal, and borrowing and lending tightly regulated and controlled. When all is said and done, maybe a quarter of the transactions in our economy are anything like free market transactions.

      Also do not confuse welfare programs with socialism

      Also, do not confuse people who pretend to be socialists with actual socialists. Bernie Sanders isn't a socialist, and neither are most of the other people who call themselves "socialist" in the US or Europe. People who pretend to be "socialists" in US politics are really just lobbying groups like any other, wanting to take away money from some people and give it to themselves and their friends.

    6. Re:If, for what I wish was the last time by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh boy, this again... Let's get some things really clear:

      1) No, dislike of capitalism does NOT mean that the person then is communist;

      2) Yes, I know real well that humans are unable to operate under real communism;

      3) No, soviet and chinese was not real communist, they were just another kind of dictatorship that was said communist. For example, in my country I had a dictatorship that was said capitalist though it was just another dictatorship;

      4) The fact 2 It does not imply that you should therefore stop trying or stop looking for alternatives;

      5) No, you've never, ever seen truly communist societies, see facts 2 and 3;

      Clear enough now? Or I'll have to draw? Damn humans.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    7. Re:If, for what I wish was the last time by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2

      What is the design of capitalism and who designed it?

    8. Re:If, for what I wish was the last time by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      *All* ideals are fantasies by definition. Your point was meaningless. Present "some other way" that isn't before scrapping the current system.

      I'm not for "scrapping" anything. My guess is the best solution right now is some hybrid. If we look at the countries where the populations are most successful, they're a mix of highly regulated capitalism with socialistic programs.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:If, for what I wish was the last time by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 2

      1) No, dislike of capitalism does NOT mean that the person then is communist;

      Of course not: communism and socialism are in good company with fascism, theocracy, military dictatorships, and aristocracies in their disdain for capitalism.

      5) No, you've never, ever seen truly communist societies, see facts 2 and 3;

      I completely agree: none of the societies I have seen were "real communist societies" in the sense of living up to communist ideals. That's because no society composed of human beings ever can or will live up to communist ideals.

      What those nominally communist societies were, however, were societies run by "real communist" like you, people who fervently believe that the problem with communism is the "sickness" of others, as opposed to their own delusions.

    10. Re:If, for what I wish was the last time by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 2

      I wrote in an obscenely obvious way earlier that I am not a "communist" and what your shithead got was the usual "is not capitalism then must be communist".

      It's not your dislike of capitalism that brands you as a communist; you share that with lots of worshipers of totalitarianism. What brands you as a communist is the distinction between actual communism and "real communism" that you're trying to make.

      No surprise that much of the world want to see your country disappearing in a nuclear mushroom.

      Sure: communists, fascists, theocrats, and the European intelligentsia have always hated the US. That's why the US is maintaining a large military to defend itself, and I'm glad they do. It was only under US hegemony and military occupation that Europeans and Asians finally stopped murdering each other and their minorities by the millions and started focusing on the peaceful pursuits of trade, ending hunger and poverty, and creating wealth. Despite all their arrogance, Europeans have never managed to do that on their own. And, btw, you have no idea what "my country" is.

    11. Re:If, for what I wish was the last time by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 2

      Umm...I don't think you understand what the government not owning the means of production actually means.

      Believe me, I know: I have first hand experience. And you are absolutely right: neither the US nor most of Europe are socialist. What we are is a regulated market economy and a welfare state, with little practical difference between the US and Europe. I was objecting to your statement We're actually pure free market capitalist.; in fact, we are nothing like that at all.

      A free market means the prices are determined by the forces of supply and demand.

      In the definition you quote, that is only one of the conditions; you skipped over the second part "in which the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government, price-setting monopoly, or other authority". Those two conditions must both be satisfied. In fact, you then quote the definition of what we actually are:

      A free market contrasts with a regulated market, in which government intervenes in supply and demand through non-market methods such as laws creating barriers to market entry or price fixing

      That is, we live in a regulated market according to your own quote, a market in which the government intervenes but doesn't necessarily set prices. But, of course, the US government also massively interferes in pricing itself, since almost all transactions are subject to taxation, but that taxation itself is subject to exemptions, all intended to encourage and discourage people from engaging in some transactions and not others.

      You're talking about EEO type laws, and no, the government isn't setting prices.

      But it is regulating the market and intervening through other authority, which are incompatible with "pure free markets". Those regulations also indirectly affect prices; that is, under EEO regulations, many people are paid different salaries than they would be without EEO regulations. Such laws form part of a "regulated market". That is, there is still a market there, but it's not free. That's not a judgment on whether EEO regulations are good or bad (which is a separate discussion), it's simply a fact about what kind of economic system we live under.

      I don't think I did?

      Presumably you want to get at some point when you said "Also do not confuse welfare programs with socialism". Given how poorly our welfare state functions, I thought that you were trying to get across that "true socialism" would function better. But perhaps you meant something different. In any case, the welfare state and socialism are indeed different (their primary difference being who owns the means of production), but they share the same fundamental economic misconception, namely that you need to put smart people in charge of yourself and give them the right to commit violence against you in order to improve your own life.

  19. Re: The blindingly obvious by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

    Correct. So the kind of little Nestor who fears being different can buy this year's Apple laptop and not worry about making the grave mistake of buying the "wrong" computer and facing the scorn of his social peers. There is even a feeling of membership in owning the Apple e-meter. To do otherwise would risk having the label "unmutual" cast upon one.

  20. Re:Not wrong != optimized by jedidiah · · Score: 2

    > But many people DO have trouble picking a jar of jam. From TFA:

    These are also probably the same nitwits that cant use an iPad without on-site technical support. This should not be a race to the bottom to pander to the biggest MORONS in society. Society is enough of an idiocracy as is.

    Restricting the choice of Jams makes it all sound so benign but it can be really quite sinister. Just ask any Soviet ex-pat, or better yet ask them to smile for you.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  21. Re:Welcome to communism! by omnichad · · Score: 2

    Reading that URL, it says "Kimg Jong Un-Orders Pig Farms" and that made me click through only to realize that Un was part of the name and not part of the verb.

  22. You're right by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Communism doesn't work. It involves a large scale transfer of ownership of the means of production to the working class, and it's been shown that in the battle between the military and ruling class that ensues when you try to do that it all falls apart.

    This folks is why I'm a Democratic Socialist. You can live however the heck you want so long as you're not causing pain and suffering to others. Trouble is the 1% will _always_ cause pain and suffering, because as you and I are diminished they are raised. It really is a Zero sum game, but for social status and political power rather than raw economics.

    Nice talking points you got there though. Did you get 'em from Rush Limbaugh? You know he just got 'em from Karl Rove right?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  23. Re:Shampoo by jedidiah · · Score: 2

    "You people are too rich. You need to live more like the starving people in Africa."

    -- The communist professor

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  24. Re:Capitalism and cripple-to-option by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

    Try on brand on Monday. Try another brand on Tuesday. Try another on Wednesday.

    Or let others do that for you: Just go to Amazon, and buy the brand with five star reviews.

  25. Re:Costco by businessnerd · · Score: 2

    Was going to say the same thing. If you walk into a Costco, you typically have only 2 -3 choices of brands for a particular good. Sometimes no choice. But Costco has found that people typically buy more and enjoy the experience more. This is a win for everybody. The customer is happier/less stressed about their choice, Costco gets more revenue from people buying more, and Costco also can keep their costs down by simplifying their inventory. I think a key component here, though, is that Costco has done a good job of whittling down the choices for us. If I'm buying ketchup, I have a choice between the cheap store brand, Heinz. Everyone knows Heinz. It's a safe choice. In cases where there is no choice, it's always the most well known/popular brand. What I don't have to do is choose between 3 crappy or unknown brands.

    --
    "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how drunk you get." -- H. J. Simpson
  26. Schwartz's book is totally worth reading by smellsofbikes · · Score: 2

    The Paradox Of Choice is excellent. The most important point among a legion of somewhat unexpected findings is: people generally make choices either by optimizing and finding the best choice, or by setting a threshold and choosing the first option that exceeds that threshold. The people who generally use optimization strategies consistently make better choices than the people who set thresholds, but are consistently much less happy about both their choices and their lives. This appears to be because in the process of optimizing, they calculate the cost of all the choices they didn't make, in a sort of buyer's remorse, and that has a huge impact on their satisfaction with the choice they did make.
    He spends a lot of time talking about how you can make good choices and be happy about them. One of the main ways of doing this is figuring out ways to reduce the number of apparent choices you have, so that the cost of the paths not taken is lower.

    --
    Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  27. 30 Kinds of Jam? Sure. by hey! · · Score: 2

    If I walk into the gourmet grocery store and see they stock 30+ kinds of jam, I'm happy. I know that I don't like marmalade in general, but I do like whiskey marmalade; so when I see blood orange whiskey marmalade I'll give it a try. If it proves to be a bad choice, it's no big deal.

    I'd say satisfaction with choice is mostly a function of the effort you need to make what you feel is a good enough choice. If you walk into the optician and you already know you want black plastic wayfarer frames with rivets at the temple, then you're glad that they've got enough of a selection to stock the Classic Nerd line. If you have no idea what you want on your face then you'd be happier with a store that offered you a choice of two or three frames. In fact if you study what a successful clerk in an optical megastore does, she (usually) steers you toward only two or three frames out of the scores of styles they offer.

    Contrast selecting from 30+ jams with selecting from 30+ health plans, where the best choice depends on the unknowable (how unlucky will I be this year?), the difficult to know (what is my likelihood of using each of these particular healthcare services?) and the need-an-expert-to-know-for-you (what do all these provisos in the small print mean?).

    Years ago I worked as lead developer for a small company developing a vertical market app in an industry that had never been automated before (then a very common scenario). The boss had a simple and seemingly fool-proof marketing scheme, based on commonsense psychology: to maximize sales volume he'd keep prices surprisingly low and to entice buyers he'd give them lots of options for how to configure the system exactly for their needs. Since this was a small company I often went to industry meetings to help out at the vendor booth, and I quickly realized that that commonsense psychology was at variance with actual psychology. People who were used to spending tens of thousands of dollars of equipment would find out that they could, in theory, get started with our software for as little as $200 and lose interest. People who didn't lose interest were quickly overwhelmed with the complexity of figuring out which items they needed to buy from the al la carte menu.

    So I proposed this change: combine all those choices into a single entry-level package that would cost a typical customer $10K - $20K, including all the options they'd be likely to use and all the services they'd need to get up and running. It took a year of financial struggle for the boss to decide he was willing to take a cut in sales volume for a boost in profit margins. But when we made the change sales volumes actually went up. People who used to walk by our $200 offering would ask why it was suddenly more expensive, and then I'd show them what they got for $10K but the decision would be simple: is this a good deal or not? And since it was a good deal a lot of them bought, and became good long-term customers for training, consulting services and data.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  28. Re:Welcome to communism! by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2

    This was literally an objection that communism had to the west. Too many choices.

  29. Trader Joe's by LunaticTippy · · Score: 2

    One of my favorite stores has been doing this since before I was born. TJ's doesn't have many choices, but they tend to have stuff I like. They only have a single choice for many many items. It is generally a good price, good quality, and not a major brand.

    I really like it because I am not supporting all the stupid advertising, it saves me money, and I get to eat good stuff without wasting brain power on picking out which goddamn brand of peanut butter is least idiotic.

    --
    Man, you really need that seminar!