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Surry Nuclear Reactors To Extend Lifespan To 80 Years (richmond.com)

QuantumPion writes: Dominion Virginia Power today will formally seek a second license extension for its Surry nuclear power plant, becoming the first utility in the U.S. to try to push the operating range for nuclear reactors to 80 years. If successful, the utility's pair of reactors in Surry County would be eligible to operate past 2050. The Surry plant, along with its North Anna sister site in Louisa County, were initially granted 40-year permits and operate today on 20-year renewals. Those two plants provide about 40 percent of Virginia's electricity.

27 of 148 comments (clear)

  1. Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by CajunArson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Thank you so much anti-nuke extremists. Thanks to your inability to look at the bigger picture, we get to enjoy nuclear reactors using designs from the 1950's well into the 21st century instead of actually using safer, modern designs.

    It's like if the safety problems with the Corvair had been used to shutdown all production of newer car models.

    --
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    1. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you looked at the figures of deaths per terawatt of nuclear compared to the next item on the list (wind), it will be obvious where nuclear power's place is. Just those figures alone should make people reconsider nuclear power as a core energy source.

    2. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why compare them? Wind and solar cannot replace nuclear. The only replacement is coal.

    3. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by HornWumpus · · Score: 5, Informative

      To make plutonium for weapons you have to run the reactor is a completely uneconomic way (balls out for a very short time). Otherwise you just get a mix of plutonium isotopes and you are back to running ultracenterfuges to get your weapons grade.

      So aside from being completely wrong, you have a point.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by CajunArson · · Score: 5, Informative

      Wrong. The light-water reactors used in the U.S. are not particularly useful at making weapons grade plutonium. If they were so wonderful at churning out nukes, then places like Hanford Washington would never have existed.

      You seem to be confusing the safe light-water commercial reactors used in the U.S. with the RBMK reactors that were used in the Soviet Union. They really were designed for dual-use operation and are inherently less safe than U.S. commercial reactors.

      --
      AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
    5. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why aren't they (the anti-nuke people) willing/able to pursuit the more logical course of action--the denial of operating extensions for obsolete, unsafe reactors

      Because "they" are just some imaginary straw-men that /. loves to bash whenever their fanboy technology continues to fail their expectations? People against new nuclear plants are, of course, also against license extensions. You making a straw-man argument that basically questions the rationality of the irrational straw-man that you and your ilk created is testament to the complete cluster-fuck of nonsense this topic has at /. Seriously, you people should get out more, instead of circle jerking each other off all the time. . .

    6. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by tnk1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's all about NIMBY. People who don't have nukes in their backyard will fight to keep them away because they fear what they don't understand. They also have more to lose. For people who already live near nuke plants, if their property values were going to go down because of the plant, it has already happened.

      The plants that are already there have been safe for decades and people are used to them. It's also very difficult for anti-nukes to call for a plant with a safe record to shutdown because they get less traction suggesting that a plant that has been safe for decades is somehow a looming menace.

      Of course, when a Chernobyl or Fukushima happens, then the fear level can be ramped up enough to deny extensions for even safely operating plants with a good record.

       

    7. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't confuse the faithful with the facts.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    8. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by tnk1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Which achieves fossil fuel plants where safety isn't even really a concern to begin with because we're less afraid of lung cancer and radiation from coal than evil radiation from heavily shielded nuclear plants.

      We're hyper-aware of nuclear safety, but there are industrial accidents all the time that kill lots of people due to cost cutting and poor management. Something like solar would just shift the danger to fabrication plants which use plenty of toxic chemicals and batteries which are basically made of toxic materials. We accept that because we're being trained to believe that solar power is light and airy and clean and totally safe, but it's only "safe" in the generation. There's nothing clean about what goes into solar plants and what happens when you decommission the apparatus to support it.
       

    9. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by Junta · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The logic being that the deaths are *caused* by resistance to constructing newer, so power plants have had to do their best to extend the serviceable life of less safe reactors. It'd be one thing if the result were *shutting down* the reactors and not building new ones, but here we have the worst of both worlds, no newer reactors with safer designs, but still running older ones that are actually the problem. Newer designs engineer to address some of the most dangerous aspects.

      Now I'm not sure I buy into the logic. A nuclear power plant being constructed, refit, or even being decommissioned is a huge expense. I suspect if the power companies really wanted the ability to spend their money building new reactors, they would have been able to. It seems likely the 'anti-nuke' sentiment is a convenient excuse for not spending money. For evidence, they have not been forced to shut down their current reactors, which would have happened if anti-nuke sentiment were really that potent.

      --
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    10. Re: Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I was a reactor operator myself. The pools didn't bother me, because I was quite far away from them, with a lot of cement, lead and other heavy stuff, with meters to confirm things were hunky dory. If stuff was going pointy end up, hit the "SCRAM" button (and then go fill out all the forms of why that reactor was shut down.)

      Only thing I would recommend is not to swordfight with either fuel or control rods.

      Reactors are a long-since-solved problem. It is anti-nuke fear and NIMBY which keeps us from having cool things (thermal depolymerization, desal, etc.)

    11. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by MerlynEmrys67 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes it is that bad. Imagine having to replace 40% of your electric load generation for Virginia. This is done with 2 nuke plants, probably 5-10 coal plants, or covering the state in solar panels and going dark at night. Now I can't build a new plant - no permitting has been allowed out of the NRC since 3 mile island happened in the late 70s, you can't shut them down or the state goes dark (heck that is probably close to 1/2% of the power generated in the whole country). You have a small group of people that have made building new/retrofiting old reactors a non starter so we are left with 50 year old reactors powering our country for the foreseeable future. The smart thing to do would be to build modern reactors to decommission old reactors, leading to safer electricity and fewer pollutants in our environment.

      --
      I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
    12. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So your theory is they didn't know what they were doing and overbuilt?

      If you were half as smart as you think you are, you would stop embarrassing yourself.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    13. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This has nothing to do with anti-nuclear campaigning, and everything to do with getting maximum return from the investment in the plant. Why spend billions building s new plant when you can keep the old one running for a fraction of that?

      Until a new plant will cost less / make more money, they will of course try to keep the old one going.

      --
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      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      Thank you so much anti-nuke extremists. Thanks to your inability to look at the bigger picture, we get to enjoy nuclear reactors using designs from the 1950's well into the 21st century instead of actually using safer, modern designs.

      It's like if the safety problems with the Corvair had been used to shutdown all production of newer car models.

      Oh, well played sir. So you figure that after all the money they spent on making this reactor they wouldn't try to extend it's lifetime? Makes no financial sense that they would decommision thise reacter tear it down, then spend billions more building a new safer modern designed one H^H^H^H^H^H^

      Wait a second!!!!! You just said that nuc reactors online today are unsafe. Turn in your nuc card ya bastard, there are some sins that cannot be forgiven, and you just commetted the worst one

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    15. Re:Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      What is different about the extension approval process that it see more success than the creation of newer, safer reactors?

      Because the extension of an existing reactor is WAY cheaper than building a new reactor. New reactors are not cost competitive with shale gas. Watts Bar is only being completed because they have a guaranteed price for their power. If they had to sell power at market rates, the project would have been cancelled years ago.

    16. Re: Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe I should have clarified. The pools are fine day to day. The fear is that god forbid they ever go dry. This could actually happen. Major grid down event, EMP attack, natural disaster, small astroid, terrorist attack, massively infectious pandemic, etc.

      Though these are considered unlikely, a pool that is not continually filled and cooled will eventually boil off, resulting in the uncovered rods catching fire due to decay heat. This won't take long to happen either if the power to run the pumps goes away.

      This would release MANY MANY more times the bad stuff of Chernobyl. That was one partial core and the fire was out out rather quickly. A fuel pool may have many spent cores packed with ugliness that, once ignighted, would burn uncontrollably pouring all that high level waste into the air.

      It would generally carry from West to East. A pool fire in the Midwest could literally make entire states on the East cast uninhabitable for generations.

      Shit, this ALMOST happened in Fukushima bc thier pool was suspended on the 2nd story.

      A pool could actually go dry for several reasons and if it ever did, it would be unimaginably catastrophic.

      So yea, those pools scare me. They literally hold the largest concentrations of the very nastiest shit anywhere on the planet, and nobody seems very eager to deal with it.

    17. Re: Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by Orne · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As someone who works in the wholesale power industry, the problem is more complex.

      We are in a unique period of overcapacity, as new technologies are displacing the old. Nuclear capital costs of new construction are astronomical, which is why in the deregulated open markets of the USA, new construction is natural gas powered and government backed wind. The wind is being build in areas of the country (Illinois) that were historically heavy industry (pre existing ehv transmission), but with factory load moving overseas, the Midwest has more generation than demand. The energy is being bottled due to lack of transmission investment, which is leading to negative wholesale pricing. That's great for consumers, terrible for base load nuclear. New nuclear is being built at an existing site in a regulated southern state, where the costs can be passed on to consumers in the rate base.

    18. Re: Thanks anti-nuke extremists! by Orne · · Score: 2

      That's what we feel too. When wind units are allowed to bid negative offers, because their operations costs are offset by government-funded renewable energy credits, it distorts the market to the point that traditional generation cannot compete. This is why the "expiration" of the Renewable Energy Production Tax Credit was such a big deal, in that everyone had to "break ground" by 12/31/2014, which is why there is a flood of windpower energy this year. You cannot build transmission this fast.

      http://energy.gov/savings/rene...

      http://www.nrel.gov/electricit...

      https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mi...

  2. Cheaper to extend by PineHall · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From a business perspective it is cheaper to ask for an extension than to spend the money to build a new one. It is economics. And all the red tape associated with a new plant and the anti-nuke fear factor makes the decision even easier.

    1. Re:Cheaper to extend by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      You forgot the other option: shut the plant down.

      Costs money to build a new plant when you shut the old one down. Even if the new plant is coal, oil, natural gas, solar, or wind. Lots of it.

      And time. Mustn't forget that part.

      So still cheaper to extend the life of an existing plant than to build a new one (even if the new one is NOT nuclear).

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  3. Nuclear saves lives by Tito1337 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The number of death associated to nuclear accidents is so small I would consider it a statistical fluke. In 2013, NASA calculated that "global nuclear power has prevented an average of 1.84 million air pollution-related deaths and 64 gigatonnes of CO2-equivalent greenhouse gas"

    --
    I like quoting Einstein. Know why? Because nobody dares contradict you.
    1. Re:Nuclear saves lives by Firethorn · · Score: 3, Informative

      Next Big Future also has a good writeup:

      Nuclear: 0.04 deaths per TWH
      Hydro: 0.10 (Euro standard)
      Wind: 0.15
      Rooftop solar: 0.44 (mostly people falling off of roofs installing them)
      Natural gas: 4
      Coal, US: 15 (China is 278)

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  4. Building new reactors by Firethorn · · Score: 5, Informative

    no permitting has been allowed out of the NRC since 3 mile island happened in the late 70s,

    Actually it has, it's just that we were just getting around to it - some new reactors are coming online this year. However, they were made at already existing plants, IE adding another reactor to an already existing nuclear power plant, and worse, it's the old design - they finished up a reactor that had construction suspended back in the '80s.

    That being said, in order to keep nuclear power plant ages 'reasonable', you're looking at that we should be completing 4-8 reactors/plants a year. 200 reactors for current power needs, 400 to 'green up' our power by eliminating coal. Estimates, which is why I'm only being single digit specific. 200 plants, 4 built a year, gives you an average lifespan of 50 years. Probably means that you'd have a few shut down at 10,20, and 30, such that the maximum age at plants without earlier problems discovered would be around 60 years, in order to compensate for the 'lemon' reactors that have to be shut down early.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  5. Needed by confused+one · · Score: 4, Informative

    They need this. Dominion has a significant number of older (built in late '50's and early '60's) coal fired plants, which are all being shut down over the next couple of years because they cannot be brought up to a high enough standard to meet the new EPA requirements. They are also shutting down an 800 MWe oil fired unit built in the 1970s, because of the new EPA requirements and because it's not very economical to operate any more (it was only being used for peaking and to supply base load if one of the nuclear plants was shut down for service). We already depend on those nuclear plants for base load and we will be leaning on them more in the future

    Dominion submitted an application to add a third reactor to the North Anna site in 2007. It's been in review since then. As I understand it, the plan is to put in a third generation ESBWR that will nearly double the North Anna site's output. The reactor design was finally approved late 2014. Hopefully they'll get site approval to start construction soon.

  6. The trouble with nuclear... by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    is that the results linger. They'll be cancer victims out of Fukushima for decades. Or maybe not. It's hard to say. Too many people have a vested interest in both camps to be sure how many will get cancer from the disaster.

    The other problem nuclear has is that it while safety is cheap per MW it's expensive as hell on the balance sheet. At least in America we've got a long history of privatizing things to hand off the profits to somebody's brother in law. But sooner or later inflation bites into their profits and they start cutting corners....

    --
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  7. Thanks pro-nuke extremists! by MrKaos · · Score: 2

    Thank you so much pro-nuke extremists. Thanks to your inability to look at reality you overlooked that placement of Nuclear facilities is governed by a Suitability Criteria that is an act of law.

    It's pretty ridiculous to think greenpeace, hippys in combi vans, NIMBYS or any one else for that matter has any influence at all as all of their concerns are addressed in Section C.9. Pointing fingers is just a way to ignore the process and economics involved in proposing and building a Nuclear Reactor. It is a complete ad hom argument when it is made.

    Especially when you consider there has been a bunch of GenIII reactors proposed. So I don't understand how their or anyone else's vision has anything to do with what reactor technology is deployed.

    It's like the safety problems with the Corvair had been left in the production of newer car and they added some new untested features but they think it's better.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.