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VW Engineers Have Admitted Manipulating CO2 Emissions Data (reuters.com)

An anonymous reader writes: According to a report in German newspaper Bild am Sonntag several Volkswagen engineers have come forward and admitted manipulating carbon dioxide emissions data, blaming the overly ambitious goals set by former Chief Executive Martin Winterkorn. Reuters reports: "The paper said VW engineers tampered with tyre pressure and mixed diesel with their motor oil to make them use less fuel, a deception that began in 2013 and carried on until the spring of this year. 'Employees have indicated in an internal investigation that there were irregularities in ascertaining fuel consumption data. How this happened is subject to ongoing proceedings,' a Volkswagen spokesman said, declining to comment on the Bild report."

19 of 201 comments (clear)

  1. Hagbard Celine's Second Law by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Accurate communication is possible only in a non-punishing situation."

    The Chief Executive set unrealistic goals and planned punishments for anyone who failed. So, the engineers did what was rational, and now they're going to get the blame for the whole thing. The executives, as usual, will get off scot-free and even if fired, will come out smelling like roses.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  2. Ok to pollute because others are worse? by sjbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I own a 2015 Passat tdi. Frankly I am not worried about the nox or co2 output I make in my vehicle.

    So you are saying you don't give a crap about the environment. Fair enough. I appreciate your honesty.

    Diesel trucks dump far more crap and haul less people.

    So the reason you don't care is because other sources of pollution are worse? That's like saying it's ok for me to dump toxins in the stream because the factory down the street pollutes more. If we accept that logic then there would be no point in any rules prohibiting pollution. Just because we haven't solved some other problem doesn't mean we shouldn't deal with the pollution coming out of your car if we can.

    My carbon footprint per person is far lower than other diesel vehicles

    And yet it isn't as low as it could or should be.

    1. Re: Ok to pollute because others are worse? by TWX · · Score: 4, Informative

      It stinks that commercial vehicles don't have to have pollution controls. A couple of months every year we have smog days and the damage caused by pollutants to our health is just shameful.

      I hope I'm alive to see the end of burning in order to create energy and power.

      Whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis?

      Commercial vehicles have emissions rules and pollution controls. They don't happen to be the same as your passenger car, because first, there are many less commercial vehicles than there are passenger vehicles so as a whole they're already polluting less than in-total for passenger vehicles, and second, the rules for commercial vehicles are based around what the vehicle is expected to move. This applies to both passenger commercial vehicles (ie, buses) and to vehicles that move cargo or raw materials. A Class-4 tow truck or short school bus chassis will have its emissions capped at a much lower amount than a Class-6 flatbed delivery truck, which will be lower than a Class-8 over-the-road tractor trailer, or full-sized school bus, or sixteen wheel heavy dump truck.

      One could extrapolate that the amount of emissions allowed per unit of work is probably comparable to your passenger car, but these commercial vehicles are doing a lot more total work.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    2. Re:Ok to pollute because others are worse? by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      Well, to be fair, CO2 emissions of the affected TDI models is probably lower in real life usage than on the test.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    3. Re: Ok to pollute because others are worse? by TWX · · Score: 3, Informative

      If a truck is Class 3 or below (commonly referred to as a one-ton, 350, or 3500 truck) it's not a true commercial chassis.

      That said, I agree with you; the nature of what the vehicle is used for, rather than its capability, starts to become important in vehicles that do not require any special class of license to operate. Vehicles 26,001 lb GCWR and above (if I am remembering correctly, I have not had a practical need to know this stuff) are generally required to have a commercial license of some kind to operate, and even when some states will tolerate private ownership and operation above 26,000 lb, to drive inter-state one must usually get a license as other states will not tolerate it. Class 2 and 3 trucks (three-quarter ton and one-ton) are far too often used as commuter/daily driver vehicles and those overpollute relative to the work that they do in-practice.

      A big part of the SUV craze of the last fifteen years has been that automakers were able to use these chassis as means to avoid fuel economy standards and to thus provide gobs of power to the buying public, when more recent developments have proven that the passenger cars and Class 1 trucks can meet these fuel economy and emissions standards when the automakers choose to work to develop them. I haven't kept-up on it, but I think that there's increasing pressure to get automakers to have more fuel-efficient vehicles in these classes- the "lifestyle truck" has become much more of a Class 1 (half-ton) phenomenon, while the plush varieties of the Class 2 and 3 trucks have gotten so ridiculously expensive that they are not suited to being driven casually by too many owners compared to in the past.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  3. No excuse for committing a crime by sjbe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Chief Executive set unrealistic goals and planned punishments for anyone who failed. So, the engineers did what was rational, and now they're going to get the blame for the whole thing.

    If the engineers did something that they knew was wrong then they deserve to be blamed and punished for what they did. If someone asks you to commit a crime the answer should be an unequivocal "NO". This was not a complicated ethical situation. This is kindergarten stuff. Just because someone told you to commit a crime doesn't make it acceptable for you to go ahead and actually do it.

    Nobody at VW involved in this fiasco was under any illusions that what they were doing was legal or even in a gray area. Any engineers who were involved in this fraud should be taken to court and punished in a manner commensurate with their crime. Same with any management that was in charge. They knew or should have known what was going on and deserve to be punished for this crime.

    And let's not pretend that the executives didn't know what was happening. This is a company that is renowned for their centralized control and micro-managing. Any pretense that the management was not aware of this fraud is almost certainly untrue. It might not go all the way to the top but I can't imaging how some folks pretty high up the food chain didn't authorize this.

    1. Re:No excuse for committing a crime by chill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So take that up one level. The governments set CO2 emissions requirements for vehicles that, it seems, were impossible to meet given the current technology. After expending a large effort and resources on improving the technology, it was still impossible.

      Those companies will then be punished by the government for failing to do the impossible. Should not the various governments who set the emission levels be held accountable? They essentially set the bar at an impossible level, given the time and resource constraints, and then threatened the livelihoods of all the participants who were guaranteed to fail.

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      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    2. Re:No excuse for committing a crime by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Informative

      The governments set CO2 emissions requirements for vehicles that, it seems, were impossible to meet given the current technology.

      Except they weren't impossible to meet given the current technology, were they?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:No excuse for committing a crime by scamper_22 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But there lies the problem.

      You can relatively easily prosecute the engineers because well... they were the ones to implement it and would know what impact things would have.

      The hard part is in getting management because at the end of the day, they typically apply pressure and can claim ignorance.

      They should really have a serious clause in there along the lines of negligence whereby management can be held to account for applying undue pressure and not taking enough due diligence to make sure it was not impacting quality.

      And it should be a harsh punishment.

      Like it or not, engineers just don't have the same kind of clout as doctors or lawyers or other regulated professions.

      It's kind of sad when you hear people talk to software developers and say they're not real engineers who are held to account...

      I've worked in some engineering oriented firms. I'd say you face the same issue you do as a developer. Your 'boss' is a corporation or venture capital firm out to make money. You are just an employee.

      Now engineers do some some areas where they have more independence. Normally in fields like power, civil engineering... often in cases where they have strong bodies.

      But for a corporate and product company like VW... there's not much difference.

    4. Re:No excuse for committing a crime by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Newsflash, EPA and CARB are re-testing other manufacturers too, and nobody else is cheating. Everybody else so far has real numbers, and modern cars really do meet modern emissions standards. Except for VW-owned brands.

      They left out the controls on the smaller engines so that they could sell them as sportscars, which small diesels are definitely not. Then they put a defeat device in the firmware to game the test. Just because you got tricked, doesn't mean that everybody else did, too. If you want a small engine and high performance, you're an idiot to think that is available in a diesel, and an idiot to think it is not efficient in other types cars.

  4. Amazing how fast guilt discovered for non-execs by JoeyRox · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So just one week or so after the CO2 emissions scandal came to light we already have rank-and-file employees admitting fault. Contrast that with their NOx emissions scandal that has dragged on for over a month with no hints from VW about the perpetrators - that should tell you the blame there lies with executives.

  5. Re: 2015 Passat tdi owner by Intron · · Score: 2

    At least read the summary. They also cheated on the mpg ratings.

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    Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
  6. Re:Time is money by rmdingler · · Score: 4, Informative

    People won't want to spend an extra hour per day commuting.

    No, they don't.

    At the heart of that you will locate an innate selfishness, a modern day tragedy of the commons. Most folks would rather we did things to the benefit of the environment, as long as their personal sacrifice is somewhere between minimal and nonexistent.

    Where we live, there is an active market for the gear heads who trade in "delete kits" (after market parts that defeat the environmental controls).

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

  7. Emmissions targets are already achievable by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The governments set CO2 emissions requirements for vehicles that, it seems, were impossible to meet given the current technology.

    The emissions targets are demonstrably possible. There are cars driving on the road today which substantially exceed the CO2 emissions requirements under CAFE and similar legislation. Car companies might have to stop selling the ones that don't but that is a Good Thing.

    After expending a large effort and resources on improving the technology, it was still impossible.

    WRONG. The technology required for VW to meet emissions standards already exists and was available to them. They made a purely economic decision to not implement that technology in order to save money while fraudulently claiming that they had solved the problem. This was fraud in pursuit of money. Nothing more.

  8. Subsidizing fossil fuels by sjbe · · Score: 2

    Cars and gasoline are not a big part of an American household's budget; you can increase the cost of driving substantially and people will still drive just as much and instead cut down on something else.

    In the short run people will still have to drive. In the long run they would find alternative transportation options. You can reduce car usage by slowly ramping up the cost of fuel. Eventually people will either drive more efficient cars or alternative transportation means become economically viable like passenger rail.

    To substantially change automobile usage in the US, you'd have to tax people so much that everybody becomes a lot poorer. That would work, but it probably wouldn't be popular. And what would be the point?

    FALSE. You are correct that to reduce auto use you would have to tax fuel more and that it wouldn't be popular. But you are wrong that everybody becomes poorer. Europe taxes gasoline much much more than the US does and yet their standard of living is pretty similar. In response they utilize rail more and tend to drive smaller more fuel efficient cars. The point would be that the single best thing you could possibly do for the environment in the short to medium term would be to tax gasoline. Higher fuel costs force people to be more frugal with their use of it. That is a Good Thing. Now I don't think it is going to happen in the US in my lifetime but there is a point to it and the point is a good one.

    Long term we have to find a way to hugely reduce our use of fossil fuels. We are literally and figuratively playing with fire by burning them for power.

    In addition, "multi-billion dollar subsidies to the oil industry" are a drop in the bucket compared to the enormous subsidies "green" energy and public transportation already receive in the US.

    I call bullshit on that one. 20 Seconds on Google would provide you the evidence that your statement is wrong. Fossil fuel subsidies roughly equal or even exceed renewables subsidies despite there being little economic justification for subsidizing fossil fuels.

  9. Re:Laws of physics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just to add to your point, most internal combustion engines are only 15-20% efficient, most of the energy in the fuel gets turned into heat or lost (either through friction of through other loads like the alternator, power steering etc). Even a super-duper-efficient ICE engine is only yielding 25% efficiency tops (number pulled out of thin air, but a reasonable number, nonetheless).

    What this means is that engines with less controls, like a motorcycle's engine, are at the bottom end of efficiency. A Harley, for example, has that horrible 60 degree V engine which is just plain inefficient, but gives it the signature Harley sound. A car, on the other hand, can have all sorts of controls such as VVT, exhaust recirculation, etc.

    Obviously it takes less energy to move less weight, but there are so many factors that need to also be considered that the argument is almost always invalid when applied to a vehicle. Aerodynamics have a much more significant impact.

  10. Re:Controlling commercial pollution by konohitowa · · Score: 2

    STEM cells. Duh.

  11. Re:Time is money by myowntrueself · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I spent 3 months carpooling in from West Covina to LA in the HOV lane looking at all of the cars with 1 person per car enjoying their time sitting still on the freeway. Please don't tell me that there isn't a better way.

    Yeah, most of those guys were literally enjoying their time sitting still on the freeway and having some personal space.

    You haven't got kids, have you. Getting some alone time is bliss! Just sitting there alone in the car for a few hours and being able to legitimately claim "I got held up in traffic"...

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    In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  12. Investigation zeroes in on two engineers .. by nickweller · · Score: 2

    "Ulrich Hackenberg, Audi’s chief engineer, and Wolfgang Hatz .. were put in charge of research and development at the Volkswagen group shortly after Martin Winterkorn became chief executive in January 2007."