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NASA Contracting Development of New Ion/Nuclear Engines (nasaspaceflight.com)

schwit1 writes: NASA has awarded three different companies contracts to develop advanced ion and nuclear propulsion systems for future interplanetary missions, both manned and unmanned. These are development contacts, all below $10 million. However, they all appeared structured like NASA's cargo and crew contracts for ISS, where the contractor does all of the development and design, with NASA only supplying some support and periodic payments when the contractor achieves agreed-upon milestones. Because of this, the contractors will own the engines they develop, and will be able to sell them to other customers after development, thereby increasing the competition and innovation in the field.

70 comments

  1. Experimental engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Whatever happened with the emdrive?

    1. Re:Experimental engines by myrdos2 · · Score: 2

      They're still detecting small amounts of thrust, but haven't yet been able to rule out measurement error.

    2. Re:Experimental engines by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 2

      NASA's Eagleworks Laboratory keeps finding that the thing produces thrust, but nobody has any idea why.

      http://www.biztekmojo.com/001550/nasas-new-tests-confirm-impossible-em-drive-thruster-can-really-work

    3. Re:Experimental engines by drwho · · Score: 1

      The EMdrive is still being worked on. There are private, and secretive, efforts to develop it, in addition to NASA research at Eagleworks. They're building test apparatus which eliminate any possibility of error from gravity, heating, etc. But they're working with very low electrical power, so the thrust they're dealing with is miniscule. There's a theory that thrust is not linear, and that the maximum efficiency is at an electrical power of 50kW, and that it's a LOT of thrust. My *hunch* is that there are groups working with EMdrives which are tens of kW, but not superconducting (but as high Q as a room-temperature RF cavity can get)...just to see what happens. Working with superconductors is difficult and expensive. The commercial superconductor industry is developing MgB2 technology for high-field magnets used in MRI, fusion, and particle accelerators, and once some of this fabrication expertise is gained, I believe that we'll see EMdrive using it. I'd give a rough estimate of 4-5 years. I don't see hi-temp (cuprate, etc) superconductors in this application for some time.

      The revolution of a practical EMdrive will disrupt the propulsion industry, which may be one of the reasons NASA is putting such little money into the projects which are the subject of this article.

    4. Re: Experimental engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The EMDrive is impossible and every real physicist, who studies the world based on the known experiments, knows it. And scifi fans who don't know about the history of science, but have a head full of philosophy and wishful thinking, hold out hope.

    5. Re: Experimental engines by drwho · · Score: 1

      It's all so easy to come in here and throw around such grandiose claims as an anonymous coward. Why don't you log in with a real account, and details your claims of hogwash.

    6. Re:Experimental engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to Retard Rei, who apparently thinks he has a degree in Theoretical Physics and Engineering, the people working on are of the same caliber as those researching ghosts.

    7. Re:Experimental engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason nasa is putting so little money into it is that it appears to violate the laws of physics. I can see nasa putting much more money into it if it is either proven inside of a conventional physics framework or if it can be experimentally verified. The very fact that they are spending money on testing the technology is evidence that nasa sees value in it. By building a smaller prototype they can spend less money on building the device itself and more on testing itself. Should the device eventually be disproven nasa won't have a massive white elephant on its hands, but will still have gained valuable experience for developing test procedures. If it works then they have a proven prototype from which they can attempt to upscale.

      I don't see any conspiracy; I see nasa giving fair treatment towards a potentially revolutionary engine that is in their eyes most likely a hoax. They have a limited budget and don't get the money they ask congress for. Already singled out by some politicians as a symbol of waste (despite this waste mostly being the result of congress itself mandating pork like the sls), spending a large amount of money on something that turns out to be a complete fraud would be a major pr disaster.

      If it turns out the EM drive is for real and a private company beats nasa to the punch in developing a practical engine then I see it actually as a major gain for the agency. Most of their stuff isn't done in-house anyways; defense contractors build it to their specs. Should the engine be as revolutionary as it claims to be then it will naturally outcompete conventional technologies, saving money for nasa.

    8. Re:Experimental engines by jpapon · · Score: 2

      To be clear, it's not NASA scientists, it's private researchers who have rented space at NASA Eagleworks.

      --
      -- Let us endeavor so to live that when we pass even the undertaker shall be sorry. -- M. Twain
    9. Re: Experimental engines by drwho · · Score: 1

      Note my slashdot id#: I've been here for a while. I've been using this nick for thirty years. Oh, maybe you have a real ID as well, but don't want to get downgraded for your choice of vocabulary and your tone.

      Whatever. Here's the science you don't deserve. It's possible the EMdrive function is due to the Unruh effect.
      http://www.ptep-online.com/index_files/2015/PP-40-15.PDF

    10. Re:Experimental engines by drwho · · Score: 1

      I can see why they're being cautious. I just wish they were a little less so. I never claimed any conspiracy, and even though the results were difficult to believe at first, and there continues to be doubt, no other explanation for the observations has been adequate. So, better experiments are performed. That's what's happening now. Because of all of the flak that the idea has, much of the work goes on in quiet.

      If you're looking for a possible explanation, here is one: http://www.ptep-online.com/index_files/2015/PP-40-15.PDF

    11. Re: Experimental engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oooh, appeal to authority!

      There's no depths too low for a Space Nutter to slink to when his religion is threatened...

    12. Re:Experimental engines by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      The point is that they are real scientists, following scientific rigor, with no financial interest in rigging the tests.

    13. Re:Experimental engines by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      They are producing a minuscule thrust on the order of what might be EM field leakage from power supply, vapors because of vacuum and heating, etc.

      Wake me up when they can produce a pound of reactionless thrust in stead of the micronewtons of near-nothing.

    14. Re: Experimental engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet you yourself cannot claim as to Why this thing works. Only that it shouldn't based on current theory.

    15. Re:Experimental engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The inventor (or the inventor of the competitor drive) could put it on a cube sat and end the speculation once and for all. Have some independent observers, video tape the construction and delivery of the device. They'd become near-instant millionaires, certainly worth the risk to take out a second mortgage on their home or whatever. Why have they not done so yet?

    16. Re:Experimental engines by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      This device is starting to sound like the old Dean Drive, but with less oiling required.

    17. Re:Experimental engines by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      They have been able to show measurement error is about an order of magnitude lower than thrust. The Eagleworks guys are focused on completely negating the measurement error to determine the exact thrust being generated so they can have better data to test against. Meanwhile the original creator of it doesn't appear to be moving forward with it, he just retired and said "use a superconducting cavity" and nobody has built one yet.

    18. Re: Experimental engines by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

      We know physics is wrong. It is the one thing about physics we know without a doubt because we can prove it does not correlate with itself. It is a good set of rules for engineering things but to try drawing truth from it about anything beyond very well defined usage scenarios or as a singular tool in a bucket for gaining knowledge (with ALL other tools involving experimentation and reiterative feedback) is absurd.

    19. Re: Experimental engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh brother.

    20. Re: Experimental engines by Rei · · Score: 1

      There have been tons of reasons proposed for how it works. Given that its thrust seems to track its temperature, not the power being supplied to it, it's clearly a thermal effect. And there are much better ways to make rockets driven by thermal effects.

      I'm amazed that there are still people talking about this thing here.

      Anyway, obligatory XKCD. And again.

      --
      Hello from Sputnik 2. I am receiving you.
    21. Re:Experimental engines by Rei · · Score: 1

      Isn't it lovely to have a stalker who mentions you in threads even when you're not around? Everyone should have a stalker. :)

      --
      Hello from Sputnik 2. I am receiving you.
    22. Re:Experimental engines by delt0r · · Score: 1

      By definition that is not detecting anything. Detecting error is well detecting error. Also the experiments are sloppy as shit, it violates all laws nature we know of and they literally made up the theory that was proven wrong more than once.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    23. Re:Experimental engines by delt0r · · Score: 1

      No they really haven't. Really.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    24. Re:Experimental engines by delt0r · · Score: 1

      The thrust of a EM drive is comparable to an ion thruster. If anything they claimed was even remotely true. It would be easy to show. But it is not true, it is bullshit. Turns out you can't get propulsion out of bullshit. Many have tried before. Hell even on of the EMdrive experimenters has a patent on an anti gravity drive. Yea real credible science right there.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    25. Re: Experimental engines by delt0r · · Score: 1

      I am not the GP. But yea the EMDrive is total bullshit. It is made up physics that was *shown* to be wrong but they went and did experiments that *showed* nothing outside errors and claimed it worked anyway. If it did work it would be a free energy device and it would mean all the laws of physics are different everywhere, like say in paris vrs NY. Since none of that is true and we have over 300 years of *experimental evidence* to back that up. The EMDrive is bullshit.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    26. Re: Experimental engines by delt0r · · Score: 1

      Seems old people can be suckers too. I heard there is this nigerian prince who wants to give you money. You may want to get in touch with him mr low UID.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    27. Re: Experimental engines by delt0r · · Score: 1

      So we should assume something that would create free energy and violate every single well defined "engineering rule" out? It would mean every bridge and building will fall down. Conservation of momentum and energy would be false if this worked. Period. Also there ZERO theory behind the emdrive. None. Oh he had some hashed out bullshit that was shown to be wrong a while back. But they can't fix what is wrong with it. Basically they guy couldn't do his math so said "whoo dude i found a propellantless drive".

      Good engineers and scientists don't assume that when they get a results like say free energy or momentum that they invented something. They assume they made a mistake. And the few that don't at least acknowledge a mistake after it was pointed out to them.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    28. Re:Experimental engines by Rich_Lather · · Score: 1

      Yeah, man. Don't forget General Motors. They don't want EM to see the light of day either.

    29. Re: Experimental engines by drwho · · Score: 1

      I guess I should have learned by now, that the level of physics knowledge of Slashdot users ends at Newton, and they have unshakable faith in him. Ultraviolet Catastrophe is probably an alien term to many of them. But yet somehow they buy into the ideas of "dark matter" and "dark energy". I really don't have the patience or time to squabble on here. If anyone has a serious interest in this, and can plough through tons of posts by actual physicists on the matter, I will direct them to the NASASpaceFlight.com forums, and the emdrive.wiki website.

      I am posting to Delt0r's comment, because it's one of those which is not anonymous, but I mean this to cover all of the putdowns I have received.

    30. Re: Experimental engines by delt0r · · Score: 1

      Sooo your comparing the Ultraviolet Catastrophe which had really good solid data to back up the problems with mismatching of theory? To an over unity device with no credible data to back it up? Really? REALLY? sheesh.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    31. Re:Experimental engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know this sounds cheesy and stupid but the theory being wrong doesn't mean that the effect isn't real so you can completely eliminate that from your response. I'm not sure what definition you're using but it does appear that the tests are detecting something otherwise there would have been nothing to go on. The detection error is the only thing that seems to be repeatable. The complaint about the sloppy experiments is also valid. It does violate all known laws of nature which is why we need to work on our detection process.

    32. Re: Experimental engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The scientists that "know about the history of science" know that every single once conceived notion has been proven wrong and "real physicists" know that this is improbable but not impossible. "Real physicists" know that the rules are not set in stone. "Real physicists" know that many things exist without working models to explain them. The no true Scotsman was nice but you're not actually a physicist nor a scientist. Taking a class in high school does not make you qualified.

    33. Re:Experimental engines by KGIII · · Score: 0

      Their syntax is similar to my stalker. They sometimes post while logged in. Do you get strange down-mods from time to time but only three of them? (I make enough off-topic posts, they should be able to legitimately use up those mod points with just a little effort.) I'm starting to wonder if meta moderation has impacted them? They could moderate five down but now it's just three. They're usually within ten minutes of each other, I made it a point to try to observe them out of curiosity.

      It kind of strokes the ego to be able to control someone like that. I just turned my positive post modification on which more than negates them and enjoy the attention. Sometimes they post and call me names. I'm usually all too kind in my replies for I'm afraid they're mentally ill and I'd not want to be even partially responsible for their hurting themselves. It does stroke the ego however, so there's that.

      Maybe we have the *same* stalker? I'd presume they're unemployed as they seem to have an inordinate amount of free time. If they let me know where they lived and the field they preferred then I might actually know someone who will give them a chance if they're willing to put on clean clothing, act like a human, and put a legitimate effort into working a full day. I know a lot of people and it wouldn't be the first time that I've been able to get someone a job.

      So, yeah, I'm just kind to them (well, I poke at them once in a while for my own amusement) and realize that they're taking the time to make you the center of their attention. They're giving you control of their time. They're giving you work and accumulated resources in order to show you that you're important to them. It's all about perspective!

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  2. We need a world-wide effort in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We need a type of global federation where every nation can pool all resources and develop a star-ship like craft. Every industry should be brought in on the effort, like how the US auto manufactures transitioned to building war-time equipment, etc. Even school students and independent inventors should be brought in.
       

    1. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They should do this:

      1. Attach chemical and ion engines to the ISS.

      2. Add modules to grow vegetables to have unlimited food. Plants can help produce O2, remove CO2, and can consume feces and urine. You can also grow potatoes and lemons to generate all the electricity you need (like a potato clock).

      3. Biodiesel generated from the plant matter, combined with the excess O2 can be reclaimed to refuel the chemical rockets.

      This is a closed system and could allow for very long exploration missions.

    2. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure solar panels are still a more efficient way to generate electricity than potatoes, and chucking "biodiesel" fuel out the back of your spacecraft sounds like a pretty good way to run out of food and oxygen in a hurry.

      Growing crops in space is a cool idea, though.

    3. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A bunch of nations pitched in on the ITER fusion reactor. It's already 300% over budget and won't be fully operational until at least 2027. Global cooperator does not necessarily make projects better or easier.

    4. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No. But Donald Trump in charge would make project better and faster and under budget, and eliminate the red tape. If we can get him into the oval office, we'll probably have fusion by 2020 and the big oil companies will be out of business.

    5. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Immerman · · Score: 0

      Yep, easy to come in under budget when you abandon the project because of a bankruptcy designed to line the pockets of The Trump.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    6. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by drwho · · Score: 1

      What exactly are you proposing, and why? 1) Why do you want to attach chemical and ion engines to the ISS? to maintain its orbit? to move it to a new one? We can already do that; it's not a big deal. It's just expensive. 2) pressurized space (the interior of spacecraft) is very expensive. Agriculture requires a lot of space. It is simply not practical to start these orbiting greenhouses until other problems are solved. The generation of electricity from a potato is very inefficient. Photovoltaic cells do a far more efficient job. 3) If you are talking about using biodiesel for rockets from the Earth's surface to orbit, biodiesel is not nearly powerful enough to reach orbit. If you are talking about utilizing wastes from human processes in orbit for rockets, this is very bad - we need those chemicals and they're expensive to bring up from Earth! This is why ion engines are attractive in orbit: they expel very little matter as opposed to chemical rockets. The EMdrive doesn't expel any matter at all, so it's even better.

    7. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by drwho · · Score: 1

      I would like to see much more spending on space projects. But a global federation pooling resources will not be efficient. Firstly, space programs are very expensive so only very large or rich nations can afford them. There are many different possible designs for a star-ship like craft, it is impossible to get everyone working on a single design. US efforts during WW2 caused great economic difficulties for the people, and were barely sustainable. I would not want to put the nation or the world through that type of suffering again.

      What is needed, is broadly-based support for intensive research into technology to help us expand off of Earth. We need the social and economic conditions which create a large number of people with the necessary skills for these jobs. I see none of this at present. We had better hope for the genius of the very few who are interested and able to do the work.

    8. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why are there so many idiots posting in this thread?

    9. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      Is this your first visit to Slashdot since 2006?

    10. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not op, but I noticed the same thing (mid to late 2000's, the iq here dropped by about 40 points). Why is this?I've been coming to slashdot since nearly its conception and typically this was a place for smart people to discuss ideas. Now it's Jerry Springer with a drunk audience.

    11. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by drwho · · Score: 1

      Solar panels work when you're got a fair amount of solar radiation to use. That's only really the case in the inner solar system (or the inner part of any star system). For other places, nuclear is needed. Fission fuels will be far more plentiful on the inner, 'rocky' planets - in our system, that's as far as the inner asteroid belt. outer, gas planets will have more deuterium and tritium, useful for fusion. Until fusion gets working properly, we're stuck with fission. That's ok, for now.

    12. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Capitalism allowed the US to buy into advanced Russian products like the Russian RD-180.
      The product worked, was delivered and the US brand was happy to contract out the platform for US use.
      India and the geo-synchronous satellite launch vehicle (GSLV) effort that the US tried to stop under the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).
      The UK trying to make its own Skynet military communications satellites, finally having to buy in the US Type-777 satellite system instead.
      A lot of nations try and share, create, buy in, offer new products at low prices but the US often sets standards to only 'rent' access to a totally US solution.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    13. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Budgets are designed based on past experience. How many fusion reactors have been been developed at the kind of scale of ITER will be again?

    14. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by drwho · · Score: 1

      I thought it would get better if I got drunk. But no improvement yet. More whiskey, me thinks.

    15. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by drwho · · Score: 1

      Drinking doesn't seem to have helped so far. Must drink more whiskey (Jameson)

    16. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by cavreader · · Score: 1

      "Capitalism allowed the US to buy into advanced Russian products like the Russian RD-180" In this case it was Russia being capitalistic. And it was the US decision to not spend money on reinventing the wheel when they could purchase a viable alternative off the shelf while dedicating the savings to the development of the next generation of engine technologies.

    17. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by delt0r · · Score: 1

      well it is not really that far over budget. If you check it properly rather than the media version of budget. But yes it does show that this sort of cooperation is expensive just in overheads alone. I mean they took 10 years to decide where to build it! Shesh. That is a lot of wages that need a budget for something that hadn't even broken ground yet.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    18. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not op, but I noticed the same thing (mid to late 2000's, the iq here dropped by about 40 points). Why is this?

      Facebook and twitter idiots trying to talk to grown ups before bedtime.

    19. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Go read Seveneves.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    20. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. Who else do you expect them to learn from, each other?

    21. Re:We need a world-wide effort in space by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      Okay, fair point. I was mentioning solar as a Light->Electricity converter, as that's how potatoes work.

  3. Twin Ion Engines? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And is this for a Fighter?

    1. Re:Twin Ion Engines? by confused+one · · Score: 1

      First rule in government spending: Why build one when you can have two for twice the price.

      Seriously though, it's called redundancy.

  4. NASA is for cows. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are all cows. Cows say moo. MOOOO! MOOOO! Moo cows MOOOO! Moo say the cows. YOU ATOMIC COWS!!

  5. Think "Different" by Thud457 · · Score: 4, Funny

    NASA should sponsor a study into harnessing measurement error as a means of propulsion. I always keep hearing everybody talking about it.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:Think "Different" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe we could harness the Probability of measurement errors for some type of Drive?

    2. Re:Think "Different" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They could always work with some VW engineers and managers who have recently become available from their past responsibilities.

  6. Re:The Greatest Mystery of All by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hohohohohoho enjoy your -1 down moderation Coren22 posting by unidentifiable anonymous.

  7. Yay, VASIMR at last! by Megane · · Score: 3, Informative

    VASIMR has been ready to go to a full-scale trial on ISS for a while now. Then the ISS won't be so dependent upon Progress supply missions to give it orbital boosts. This thing will be powerful enough that they have to have batteries in it because the ISS solar panels aren't powerful enough to run it at full power.

    But I'd be happier if I saw a date when it would actually get launched for installation on ISS. It looks like they will still be building the first engines through summer 2016. After that it's not clear if the tests are meant to be done on ground. They're also talking about having it run for 100 continuous hours in the third year of the contract, which is more than what ISS needs, so maybe they'll send one up to ISS in 2017 or 2018?

    --
    #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    1. Re:Yay, VASIMR at last! by delt0r · · Score: 1

      This is a cool engine. But the ion engines are sort of quite different in that they have only a "top gear" and it is much higher than a VASIMR.

      --
      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
  8. Thereby increasing innovation? by macraig · · Score: 1

    ... thereby increasing the competition and innovation in the field.

    Forgive my bad French, but that's the sort of ideologic bullshit you can't prove. NASA saves money from an embarrassingly tiny budget; that is the only benefit this type of arrangement provides. It does the precise opposite of increasing competition, since one company will have a government-sanctioned monopoly; if it didn't and NASA placed the designs into the public domain, then ANY company could make the engines and sell them to NASA, improving NASA's supply chain. Have you forgotten why our computers are dominated by Intel processors? IBM made the decision to use an Intel processor because Intel had co-fab agreements with other companies, meaning that IBM wasn't solely dependent upon Intel alone for supply, while Motorola was the sole supplier for 68000 processors.

    1. Re:Thereby increasing innovation? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your completely irrelevant point about Intel aside, it seems you have no idea how government contracting works on this scale. It is not just "any company" that can make engines. I can't start "Jim Bob's Aerospace and Fried Chicken Co." tomorrow and get NASA contracts no matter how low my bid is. Also, NASA doesn't make shit. It's not their fucking design, they're only providing specifications. That's the whole fucking point of TFA.

      Christ, you are so dumb you make rocks look like rocket scientists.

  9. What about NTR's..? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nuclear Thermal Rockets worked, there's just the whole radiation thing but that's where the research dollars should be going if we're that serious about doing a manned mission to anywhere. IMHO.