Tesla's NOx Problem: Model X Delay Explained? (dailykanban.com)

An anonymous reader writes: It may not have come as a surprise that the NOx emissions violations discovered in some of Volkswagen's diesel engines have led to similar findings in cars from several other manufacturers. However, Daily Kanban's Edward Niedermeyer has discovered that a seemingly unlikely car maker has also received a Notice of Violation for NOx emissions: a thermal oxidizer used in Tesla's Fremont, CA plant produces far more of the reactive gases than the permit allows. According to Niedermeyer, the device is located at the paint shop destined for the Model X production and this environmental problem could well be the leading cause for the delay.

Comments

Self-reported

[Big_Oh]

FTA: "In fact, Daily Kanban has discovered that Tesla has self-reported an NOx noncompliance at its Fremont, CA factory that may be contributing to delays in the production of the firm’s new Model X SUV."

Re:Self-reported

[Anonymous Coward]

They may have self reported, but fact is, they claimed their site was going to produce .8 pounds of NOx per day, and their burner alone was producing as much as 1 pound per hour. And there's no indication on how long they'd been using it or how long they knew about it before reporting. You're probably looking for sympathy for them, but when you're producing 10x as much as you're supposed to be, that's pretty bad.

Re:Self-reported

[ShanghaiBill]

Why is NOx a problem at a static location anyway? I understand that they are hard to deal with in a vehicle because of weight and maintenance issues. But in this case they can just run the exhaust through an akaline mister or bubbler that could strip out nearly all the NOx. It shouldn't be that hard.

Does anyone have Elon's cell number? Maybe I can give him a call and offer some suggestions.

Re:Self-reported

[ShanghaiBill]

Any chance that will increase alkali or other emissions?

They don't vaporize, and any that were emitted as a mist would quickly settle out of the air. Ocean spray is alkaline. So is calcium rich spring water sold in grocery stores.

Or noise emissions?

There is no reason that a bubbler or mister would be noisy. Certainly less than the 100 ton stamping machines. The Tesla plant is located in Fremont next to I-880 in an industrial area, and it is a HUGE building surrounded by large parking lots. They are far away from anyone who would care about noise.

Re:Self-reported

[Farmer Tim]

What you suggest isn't a reasonable analysis either, since it fails to account for the emissions from manufacturing conventional ICE cars.

Re: Self-reported

[MindStalker]

Tell that to the 5 people who got the early production versions 2 months ago, that their cars don't work.

Re: Self-reported

[dl_sledding]

RTFA:

"Tesla estimated its plant’s NOx emissions would be just .8 pounds per day". NOT 8 POUNDS, 8/10 OF A POUND. So, estimating 10 times as much is closer than your 3. In actuality, it'd be more like 30 times as much.

That's if the furnace was running at 100%, 24 hours per day. Which is probably not true, but must be considered.

Fucking dumbass AC.

Re:Everyone is cheating

[jklovanc]

Because the cheating the OP is referring to is emissions from the car and what the article is talking about is emissions from the manufacturing process. They are different issues. It is impossible to do a tear down on another company's manufacturing plant.

Re:Bullshit

[jklovanc]

The painting is not the issue. It is the disposal of all the VOCs from the painting process and it looks like the oxidizer is running at too low a temperature and producing too much NOx.

Re:Bullshit; maybe not!

[TimSSG]

You are thinking that at least one US manufacturer process is actually following the EPA rules.
I no longer think this can be taken for granted as being true!

Tim S.

That article is full of bullshit, they are saying that the painting of the cars doesn't meet some requirement.

The painting of the cars is not the difficult part, they can use any process any other car manufacturer uses.

This is just talk for the sake of the words and the propaganda.

California

[daninaustin]

It just serves as another reminder of why you don't build a manufacturing plant in California.

Re:California

[nnull]

The problem is that California has all the logistical capacity and ports in the state that drops costs down dramatically, especially when a lot of final production manufacturing is still in California. So you're still going to have a very hard time competing against a business who deals with the bullshit regulations in California when their business is next to your huge potential client and next to every other supplier or have easy access to the port for shipping, bringing their costs down dramatically despite the bullshit. Most places in California have an advantage where a lot of manufacturers are very nearby. Try that in Idaho, where your delivery times will be 1-2 weeks from suppliers or clients, because they're all in California still.

You might have better luck in Las Vegas or Reno, but when the I15 gets screwed up (Which it does quite often), you're pretty much screwed. Or Mexico, in Tijuana (Huge manufacturing base booming there), if border issues don't screw you up.

Despite what people say, businesses are still coming to California, more so than they are moving out of the state. I'm not advocating that California is right in doing what it does, because I do think it's stupid, but it's not having this huge impact as some people think because of what I stated above. People for now are still willing to deal with the bullshit as the total costs balance out compared to other places. Most of the businesses you hear about leaving are usually the ones without permits and some of the crappiest equipment you could possibly imagine.

Re:California

[RubberDogBone]

They didn't "build it" as such. The Tesla plant is the old GM/Toyota NUMMI plant which built collaborative Toyota and GM cars and pickups for years, which was in turn a GM-exclusive plant for years before that.

It's an OLD car plant, modernized and updated no doubt by Tesla. But Tesla certainly didn't build all of it. They simply grabbed the otherwise disused NUMMI plant for cheap. There were a LOT of good reasons for doing that, ranging from existing infrastructure dedicated to building cars, to workers from what was one of the world's best car factories, to local suppliers, machines, room to expand, etc. Reusing NUMMI was a great idea for Tesla and everyone else too.

This paint booth problem can and will be solved. It won't be enough to stop Tesla or any other auto maker. It's merely something they need to fix.

Re:California

[daninaustin]

I see the point about Idaho, etc, but we have ports in Texas and have been taking a lot of jobs from California already.

Re:Bullshit

[confused one]

other way around. NOx formation occurs at higher temperatures.

Re:Bullshit

[nnull]

You can tell this is a hit piece and someone actually went to the trouble to dig this crap out. Who the hell reports on permit violations? Seriously, I can go to any manufacturer and find a lot of places with either no permits or violating a whole lot of regulations, yet it goes unreported or no one even cares. Why this focus on Tesla's manufacturing equipment? What next? Are they going to report that Tesla's equipment is not according to plans and the power to the place should be shut down?

In the meantime, from the sounds of this AQMD report, it sounds like Tesla should just move this operation to Mexico like every other manufacturer that requires printing or painting. AQMD's nonsense has brought absolute misery to a lot of people in California which forces them to use more inferior products to operate in California and unable to compete with other businesses out of state or in Mexico. A lot of places don't even require these type of incinerators which costs a huge amount of money, energy and there is ZERO return on them. We don't use them to generate energy (Unless you have a smart engineer design something clever to use this heat for something, which I doubt, our engineers are stupid) and they use up more precious fuel to burn all this crap.

Re:Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

1) These environmental guidelines are useful for sustaining life on earth.

2) Moving to Mexico won't help.

3) If you are worried about not being able to compete with Mexico, argue to your (potential) customers.

Re:Bullshit

[khallow]

1) These environmental guidelines are useful for sustaining life on earth.

They are apparently more useful for sustaining life outside of the US than they are inside the US.

2) Moving to Mexico won't help.

It'll help Tesla and Mexico a great deal.

3) If you are worried about not being able to compete with Mexico, argue to your (potential) customers.

Are your potential customers going to adjust US regulations? Or are they going to buy a more expensive product just to save a negligible amount of pollution emissions?

A pound a day?

[PPH]

For the whole fscking plant? This is so far below the natural background level of NOx creation it is funny. But then I guess it isn't so funny if you are trying to do business in California.

Re:A pound a day?

[Coren22]

The non compliance level is 1 lb per hour, as far as I can find there is no indication of how much NOx is being produced in the article beyond speculation.