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To Fight Pollution, New Delhi Restricts When Residents Can Drive (thehindu.com)
GillBates0 sent word that New Delhi, the capital of India, is growing increasingly bold with its attempts to fight air quality problems around the city. The metro area is home to over 21 million people, who own an estimated 8.7 million vehicles. On Friday, the government decided to divide the vehicle population in half, and ban each on alternate days. Starting on January 1, vehicles with odd-numbered plates will only be allowed on the road when vehicles with even-numbered plates aren't, and vice versa. "Emergency and public vehicles along with carpools will be exempt from the restrictions. The emergency meeting where the decision was taken ... came after a Delhi High Court observation that living in Delhi was akin to living in a gas chamber."
Job done!
We have been doing this in Itay since the 80's, even though not always for pollution problems. Even and odd plate numbers.
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
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Or just eat cake.
Table-ized A.I.
People get multiple cars, people hire drivers for even/odd days, people have multiple license plates, etc. This doesn't work.
The way to get people to drive less is to make mass transit more convenient and cheaper than driving. Have a cheap system in place, make sure it runs well, and put in/raise tolls for those who continue to drive regardless to pay for the mass transit.
It's basic economics and in this case, it works.
My plate says "MUFFDVR".
People will just tend to drive more on the days they can drive, because the streets will be less crowded. It'll still be about the same amount of pollution.
The effect is similar to building better roads hoping to reduce congestion, it doesn't work: http://www.wired.com/2014/06/w..., http://www.perc.org/articles/s...
No problem for the well-off, they'll just buy a second car with different plates. It's what people did in Beijing. It won't help with the pollution, though it will help with the "fuck what you want, commoners" attitude that is so prevalent in governments today.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Typically, only about 10-20% of pollution in a city is because of traffic. Most pollution is due to industries. The right solution is moving coal plants and heavy industries away from the city.
This already backfired in Singapore and the result was that lots of people went out and got a crappy second car; a crappy car that polluted even more. Or their kids got a car, or their wife, or they paid a neighbour, or whatever rule was put in front of them people went around around.
A far better way would be a big bloody toll with every dime spent on good public transport.
A leftist non-solution.
In the US many families have more than one car. Laws like this might encourage Delhi residents to try and get another car to work around this restriction.
The city should have also exempted electric cars. people may not own them in significant numbers, but it would certainly encourage them to.
This doesn't work.
Of course it works - it may not be perfect, but it has an effect. Not everybody is hell-bent on defeating the system, no matter what; many - probably most - feel that it is right to care about the environment, other people, society etc. They won't give up what they see as an advantage on their own, but if a law says that everybody has to, then they are happy to do so.
Reminds me of the old sim city on the IBM PS/2 - never build roads, just build your city in a grid with train tracks - you will never get a single complaint about traffic congestion and commutes where always low through out the city.
'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
A more relevant question: on what days can they ride their elephants?
People get multiple cars, people hire drivers for even/odd days, people have multiple license plates, etc. This doesn't work.
This scheme is planned to run for two or three weeks. Do you really think that people are going to buy another car just to cover that short period? Do you really think that there were enough unused cars previously that could cater for a new industry of hire cars to be able to service the entire population? Do you really think that every person in Delhi has the contacts to be able to procure false license plates?
Where is your evidence that these schemes always fail miserably? Or indeed, that any scheme like this has not been able to reduce the number of cars on the road to some extent. There have been plenty of people making statements that these road reduction policies always fail, but not one of you has provided a single citation to back it up.
Sure, some residents will be able to find ways to get around the restrictions (let's face it, no system is perfect), but that doesn't mean that all 18 million people in Delhi will have the resources to game the system. They don't all have the money to buy new cars (or even the space to park them).
I don't remember when Athens started this, but I think it was about 25 years ago. Other places have too. some suggest it doesn't work in the long term.
soylentnews.org
A band aid measure that only pushes the problems down the road (pun!). What are they doing to address over-population? Nothing. The party in power has a religious ideology hell bent on more people. It's their central mantra. And it's going to end badly for everybody.
Any program like this will have "exemptions" . . . for folks like doctors, policemen, politicians, etc. Normal folks will also be able to "buy" one by bribing the civil servant issuing the exemptions.
In the USA in the 70's, during the OPEC oil crisis, I remember there was also a system of odd/even license plates, odd/even days determining when you could tank up at the gas station. People were incredibly creative at finding ways around it.
I wonder if New Delhi has a way of tracking the effectiveness of this? Like counting the cars on the roads. It would be interesting to how many % less . . .
Yes. Corruption will certainly be an issue. Nonetheless, even in India I would expect an overall reduction in pollution, and the corruption itself will create a tax and small incentive on those who continue to pollute illegally. You get an unjust result, where those willing and able to engage in corruption have more rights than those who do not--but you do lower pollution.
Do you really think that every person in Delhi has the contacts to be able to procure false license plates?
Oh, I'm guessing they'll be available on Amazon and eBay . . .
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
This scheme is planned to run for two or three weeks.
It sounds like a "trial run"; if deemed successful, then it can be made permanent during week 3.
Do you really think that people are going to buy another car just to cover that short period?
No.... they're more likely to just "ignore" the scheme and drive their car anyways. Not like everyone's license plate gets thoroughly checked.... heck; I see people driving with no license plate at all, all the time.
I'd bet if they get caught and pulled over, they'll say they weren't aware of the scheme, blah blah blah, and weren't appropriately informed or alerted in any way, blah blah blah....
How do they hope to enforce this in a country where road rules are effectively optional? Or will the enforcement agencies magically care about this rule?
Of course it works - it may not be perfect, but it has an effect. Not everybody is hell-bent on defeating the system, no matter what; many - probably most - feel that it is right to care about the environment, other people, society etc. They won't give up what they see as an advantage on their own, but if a law says that everybody has to, then they are happy to do so.
You're missing the forest for the trees. People still have to get to work, so when you take away their cars you're just taxing the working class. They're going to HAVE to get to work, and this measure is NOT going to increase public transportation. As others have stated, this is a non-solution,. and an actual solution would be taxing the shit out of automobiles and spending the proceeds on public transportation. Instead, they're causing their citizenry problems (can't drive, need another car to get to work) while completely failing to address the problem (inadequate public transport.)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
2016 : Odd days: 168 Even days: 152 Difference: 16
2017 : Odd days: 167 Even days: 151 Difference: 16
2018 : Odd days: 165 Even days: 151 Difference: 14
2019 : Odd days: 164 Even days: 149 Difference: 15
2020 : Odd days: 166 Even days: 151 Difference: 15
2021 : Odd days: 166 Even days: 150 Difference: 16
2022 : Odd days: 168 Even days: 153 Difference: 15
2023 : Odd days: 167 Even days: 151 Difference: 16
2024 : Odd days: 163 Even days: 149 Difference: 14
2025 : Odd days: 169 Even days: 151 Difference: 18
2026 : Odd days: 163 Even days: 148 Difference: 15
2027 : Odd days: 166 Even days: 150 Difference: 16
2028 : Odd days: 170 Even days: 154 Difference: 16
2029 : Odd days: 165 Even days: 151 Difference: 14
2030 : Odd days: 164 Even days: 149 Difference: 15
2031 : Odd days: 169 Even days: 151 Difference: 18
2032 : Odd days: 165 Even days: 150 Difference: 15
2033 : Odd days: 168 Even days: 153 Difference: 15
2034 : Odd days: 167 Even days: 151 Difference: 16
2035 : Odd days: 165 Even days: 151 Difference: 14
2036 : Odd days: 168 Even days: 151 Difference: 17
2037 : Odd days: 163 Even days: 148 Difference: 15
2038 : Odd days: 166 Even days: 150 Difference: 16
2039 : Odd days: 168 Even days: 153 Difference: 15
2040 : Odd days: 164 Even days: 151 Difference: 13
2041 : Odd days: 164 Even days: 149 Difference: 15
2042 : Odd days: 169 Even days: 151 Difference: 18
2043 : Odd days: 163 Even days: 148 Difference: 15
2044 : Odd days: 168 Even days: 152 Difference: 16
You're missing the forest for the trees. People still have to get to work, so when you take away their cars you're just taxing the working class. They're going to HAVE to get to work, and this measure is NOT going to increase public transportation. As others have stated, this is a non-solution,. and an actual solution would be taxing the shit out of automobiles and spending the proceeds on public transportation. Instead, they're causing their citizenry problems (can't drive, need another car to get to work) while completely failing to address the problem (inadequate public transport.)
First of all, the phrase "you're missing the forest for the trees" makes no sense with regards to what you said. Secondly, this initiative will indeed include improving public transport. Why did you think that it would not? From the article:
To ensure that commuters are not put to hardship, Delhi Metro services will be extended and school buses will be requisitioned even as efforts to expand the existing fleet of the Delhi Transport Corporation (DTC) were underway.
Finally, you claim that this proposal effectively taxes the working class, and yet your solution is to directly tax them instead. So instead of the temporary inconvenience of limiting the number of cars on the road, you suggest that they permanently increase taxes. And how does "taxing the shit out of automobiles" actually reduce the amount of pollution generated since the cars on the road have already been purchased, and increasing the purchase cost will not reduce the use of the vehicle. You could be talking about fuel tax and tolls, but that is still a tax on the working class.
But we have a more elaborate scheme:
- on Mondays: plates ending with 1 or 2;
- on Tuesdays: 3 or 4;
- Wednesdays: 5 or 6;
- Thursdays: 7 or 8;
- Fridays: 9 or 0.
Some decades ago, it was started long ago to fight pollution; cars were prohibited in a central area of the city from 7 AM to 8 PM. Years later, it was changed to work in two periods -- from 7 AM to 10 AM and again from 5 PM to 8 PM, keeping the same plate number scheme. People were mostly in favor of such schemes, because traffic all but stopped during certain hours.
Tickets nowadays can be emitted electronically.
This is a temporary solution, because people buy a second car if they really need to use it everyday. I guess the only solution is to avoid building with too many stories, which in turn concentrate everyone in a few neighborhoods.
It sounds like a "trial run"; if deemed successful, then it can be made permanent during week 3.
They have explicitly said that the restrictions would be temporary, and there is nothing to suggest that it would be otherwise. They still need to make some long term changes to fix the problem, but right now something must be done to reduce their huge, immediate pollution problem.
Not like everyone's license plate gets thoroughly checked.... heck; I see people driving with no license plate at all, all the time. I'd bet if they get caught and pulled over, they'll say they weren't aware of the scheme, blah blah blah, and weren't appropriately informed or alerted in any way, blah blah blah....
I'm pretty sure that the police will be vigilant about this considering that it is such a major event in the city. Pleading ignorance will not be an excuse in the eyes of the law. And even if some people do flout the rules, it still will not mean that the number of cars on the road will not be reduced. Just because something is not 100% successful does not mean that it is not worth trying.
In the US, we still have clowns who think pollution is not important. Industry acts as if it as a right to pollute. Coal burning needs to be banned 100%. Jobs mean absolutely nothing if your lungs are gone or cancer is dragging you into the dirt. Worse yet there are notions similar to what occurs in Paris. There is the air is still and the pollution remains local Paris takes measures to shut down automobiles etc.. But if the wind is blowing and that pollution is spread over a much wider area officials find it acceptable. Pollution is not acceptable no matter how far you spread it about.
To Fight Pollution, New Delhi Restricts When Residents Can Drive
If you've ever driven in New Delhi, or even any major city with a significant East Asian population, you're keenly aware that the real issue isn't when they drive, but whether any sane government would allow them to drive.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
I think you may have your countries confused.
I took it as "How does this hoy no circula regime being implemented in an India city compare to hoy no circula regimes already introduced in cities in other countries?"
My guess as to why not to exempt electric cars is twofold. For one thing, EVs do not decrease pollution but instead shift it to coal power plants, though that might not apply quite as much if India goes solar. For another, EVs still increase the number of cars on the road, which causes legacy cars to have to idle at intersections just as long.
My plan if I were emperor:
1. Let engineers determine the capacity of the roads.
2. Auction off only as many road licenses as the roads can handle.
3. Use the auction proceeds to maintain the roads, funneling the rest into public transit.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Ah, the good old days, when men were men and girls were girls.
Of course it doesn't matter.
I've seen some video clips. If you want to restrict people driving to certain designated times, how about starting with driving just when the lights are green?
Have gnu, will travel.
I have vanity plates with letters but no numbers.
Have gnu, will travel.
Actually, you were told "build more roads" all the time, but the city worked just fine.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
To be pedantic - the government of Delhi is planning to impose this rule on the whole city of 21million which is Delhi, not only on the part of it that is New Delhi.
Is it really the "working class" that owns cars in New Delhi?
Yes, pretty much everyone not living in abject poverty owns a car in New Delhi. It has double the number of cars than Bangalore, which has double the number of cars that Mumbai has. And Mumbai has a population much greater than both of those. A very high percentage of people in Delhi have cars, many families have multiple. Delhi has the cheapest cars, the least amount of road tax and the cheapest fuel in the country. These factors and the lack of good public transport have put it into the mess it is in today.
Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
If you have X busses and Y cars on the road, and the traffic congestion is really bad and everything is moving very slowly, and the buses are presumed to be continually traveling in a circle picking up and dropping off passengers, then reducing the number of cars on the road will decrease the trip time for buses and increase the carrying capacity of the same number of buses running for the same amount of time. If you decrease the cars and also increase the buses, as they describe in the story, then the effects are magnified.
You seem to be missing both the forest (the big-picture of traffic flow) and the trees (the specific vehicles chugging slowly down the street).
I'll give you a hint, it is the Public-Transit-Tree that the working class are using. The idea here is to get the partying yuppies out of the way of the buses.
Combine carrot and stick so that the carrot corresponds to the pain points caused by the stick.
linquendum tondere
This is marginally better than our current method of funding public transit, but really public transit should not be funded on the back of private transit. If such a funding scheme works correctly, people will switch from private vehicles to public transit, thus lowering the funds available even as ridership sees ever new highs.
Public transit funding ought to come from rider fees and, if subsidy is desired to keep the rider fees low, from general taxation.
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Designated driving streets !
I have no problem with changing my plan over time. I'm a fickle emperor.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Free public transportation can curb air pollution;
Casteism