Gigster Wants To Be the Uber of Software Development (techcrunch.com)

HughPickens.com writes: Josh Constine writes at TechCrunch that a company named Gigster is trying to bring the Uber business model to software development. Simply: a user sends them an idea, Gigster passes it on to developers who sign up to build software, and when it's done they send back a functioning app. After converting product requirements into a development plan, they let their group of remote developers start hacking away at the code. It has already resulted in a dating app for Muslim millennials, a way for citizens of the developing world to buy electricity, and has over fifty more projects in the pipeline. The entire development process goes through their app, and they charge a flat fee rather than an hourly rate. Gigster developers who satisfy customers can earn karma points and qualify for higher-paying contracts. One major caveat: Gigster will still own the code to the app it designs for you, and it "leases" the software to you. They say they want to be able to reuse certain components on other projects.

Comments

Uber of Software Development?

[FunkSoulBrother]

I guess they won't be paying benefits to their obvious employees then.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[gstoddart]

This is the new trend ... piece work, with no employment, benefits, or stability.

This "sharing economy" bullshit is about letting the company who goes IPO to make money, while relying on a bunch of people they treat as disposable do the work for them.

So, yeah, you're not an employee in this scenario, and you never will be. And meanwhile some asshole of a CEO makes millions of dollars for exploiting you.

Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me. Not sure why everyone is so keen to participate in stuff like this.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[ranton]

Many contractors do not get paid benefits. They simply add around 30% to their rate to factor in those benefits.

The real question is what kind of rates can developers, designers, and project managers make with Gigster. If they are in the $75-$150 range for developers they could provide a very useful service for both highly-skilled contractors and companies wanting a quality product. If they are offering more like $50 or less then its just another company trying to exploit low wage labor to produce cookie-cutter products on the cheap.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Junta]

Well, yes, that's the deal pretty plainly spelled out.

Traditionally you trade in the potential for big upside for consistency of a paycheck. Or you surrender the consistency for a chance to control your destiny and maybe make some surprisingly big bucks because you get to keep ownership of it.

Here the company sees it being 'cool' to surrender the consistency of a paycheck, but still completely surrender ownership and control of your work, and they are understandably exploiting that for all it's worth. Hopefully it blows up in their faces rather than establishing a new normal.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[gstoddart]

then its just another company trying to exploit low wage labor to produce cookie-cutter products on the cheap

Go with that one.

That's the entire business model ... get rich by letting some schmuck compete to do the job as cheaply as possible. If you're really lucky, you go IPO and cash out.

The people who do the work? They collect a little table scraps and hope it gets better.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[__aaclcg7560]

Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me. Not sure why everyone is so keen to participate in stuff like this.

How is this any different from working at any other company? If you're an employee, you get laid off when the owner sells the business and retires with a boatload of cash. Or, in my case in 2013, I was laid off and out of work for eight months because the Fortune 500 company had a lousy fiscal year and the CEO got a 60% raise to buy a new yacht. Here's the secret of the new economy: you want to be an owner, not an employee.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[gstoddart]

Here's the secret of the new economy: you want to be an owner, not an employee.

Oddly enough, both Adam Smith and Karl Marx sorted that fact out a long time ago.

Doesn't mean you need to participate in the race to the bottom so some asshole of a CEO can cash out.

I look at this entire "sharing economy" as people getting screwed over for chump change to make someone else rich.

Fuck that.

This is just taking every advance we made in employment over the last century or so and tossing it out and saying that it's so damned important that some douchebag profit we should all be willing to sacrifice ourselves to that end.

Again, fuck that.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[phantomfive]

Overall I like the "gig economy" idea, where you can do jobs more freely when you choose to, without being tied down. It's like good parts of being a contractor, but without some of the negatives (of needing to find customers, difficult paperwork, etc). Of course, not all places like Uber reach that ideal.

The major negative is that you need to be paid enough extra to cover normal expenses, like healthcare and 401k matching that you would normally get in a job. If they aren't paying extra, it's not worth it.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Grishnakh]

You're just bitching and griping and still not offering any better alternative. The OP already pointed out how the status quo isn't really any better.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are a regular wage slave, you are already participation in that race to the bottom.
Corporate profits are breaking record All Time Highs every year, while salaries are breaking All Time Lows.

Guess what year these extremes happened last time?

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Grishnakh]

Yeah, it sounds like it's basically competition for rentacoder or something like that, but Gigster just has more involvement in the process and probably coordinates putting together a team a little better. In the end, it's really just about getting a bunch of Indian coders to work dirt-cheap on projects for westerners.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Hognoxious]

I hope that's per week and not per month!

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Joe_Dragon]

Just sign up for some of the 1099 jobs that should be W2 don't put on the unforims and when they ask where is your unforim? say where is my W2? and cash to cover my expenses that pull me under mini wage? Lot of the time with the 1099 stuff you can be on the clock under the law but not really in the app system.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[BenBoy]

You're certainly right about these not being new ideas

Alienation: (in Marxist theory) a condition of workers in a capitalist economy, resulting from a lack of identity with the products of their labor and a sense of being controlled or exploited.

You're going to be lucky to get what you pay for, developing this way. Most likely you'll get worse.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Gr8Apes]

Not really, current employment has some benefits. A gig economy only works if the gigs pay enough to cover your long term. I doubt anything on gigster is going to pay that well. At best, you'll be getting $2/hr or something like that, by the time all is said and done. I really love the clause on gigster retaining code ownership. That just means you're a short term hack for gigster. Wouldn't surprise me if gigster also hides who you are, so there's 0 benefit to doing anything for them unless you're already in a hopeless situation.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Junta]

I see the potential for freelancing, but not liking the terms of engagement here. If I wanted to freelance, I'd not want to give up everything to a company as if I were an employee. As it stands there are plenty of places that will find clients, do the paperwork, and give me a good steady wage for doing so. Now if they compensated well per job, that could be nice, but somehow I doubt they'd be able to do that and yet be competitive with the market.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[TsuruchiBrian]

Whether a company is exploiting you has nothing to do with whether they offer benefits or stability. A company is exploiting you if they are under compensating you for your labor and skill.

I can't even hire a nanny without becoming an employer who provides benefits like paid time off and payroll taxes, etc. I am not an employer, I don;t want to do any of that shit. I just want to pay for someone to watch my kid while I am working.

Whether I am working as a contractor or as an employee, it is my responsibility to ensure that I am being properly compensated, and if not, asking for a raise or finding a new job.

Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me.

Then don't participate.

Not sure why everyone is so keen to participate in stuff like this.

Me neither, but that's for them to decide.

The interesting thing about software development is that good software developers can write good code in less time than a bad developer can write bad code.

A job that pays per project rather than hourly might be horribly exploitative for a bad software developer who needs to spend a month completing a project and another 2 months trying to fix all the bugs, and it might be very lucrative for a good software developer who only needs to spend 2 days doing it correctly.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[rockmuelle]

Um, the OP is wrong about the status quo? Look, most good devs I know with 5+ years experience make in the mid $100k range, have great benefits, and can find a new job on a moment's notice. If they consult, they do it because they can have a nice rate that gives them flexibility in other areas of their life. Most non-devs I know would love to make half what the devs make and have that type of job security. (and I'm not located in CA, NY, WA, or MA)

Also, most startup CEOs don't make millions. Most are looking for new jobs after a few years of making nothing. As for non-startup SMEs (small/medium enterprises), most of the ones that employee technical talent treat that talent well. Sure, if things go south, they may have to lay people off, but see my first paragraph for the solution.

Remind me what's wrong with the status quo???

tl;dr; developers have it really good right now. Quit your bitching.

-Chris

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[__aaclcg7560]

Many contractors do not get paid benefits.

As a W2 contractor doing I.T. support work, I get paid holidays, 20 Paid Time Off (PTO) days , 401k and health benefits. According to recruiters who contacted me, I could get matching benefits and a 30% increase in pay at a different job. Ironically, the increase in pay rate is because many hipsters are unwilling to commute more than 30 minutes away from San Francisco. Southern Silicon Valley (i.e., San Jose and Sunnyvale) are starving for workers.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[MBGMorden]

As a primary job it is indeed pretty bleak. Depending on pay level though I could see it as a pretty decent second job to pad income. I've already got stability and health insurance and the like through my main job. If however, I could take on some projects on something like this on the side I could potentially save up a better down payment on my next car, or pay down my mortgage a bit, etc.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[MightyMartian]

Not to worry. The problem is being solved by Gigster. Soon you'll be working for a couple of bucks an hour, you know, because "sharing".

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[KGIII]

It's a frequent trait that people have where they see themselves as underprivileged and the fault being because of the more wealthy. What they don't seem to realize is that they are that person to someone else. I don't think this is a recent development. I do think we communicate more. I also think it's the people who complain that speak the most.

The thing is, Grishnakh is usually more sane and logical. :/ It is understandable, it is Friday and the holiday is fast approaching. Really, I am pretty sure that the vast majority of us on Slashdot have far better lives than the average person could ever hope for. Considering that we've power to run computers that we own and time to post on Slashdot, it's quite likely. We've probably even got food and safe shelter.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[__aaclcg7560]

I'm not worrying. My job requires a security clearance, which isn't "sharable" for a few bucks an hour.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[GodelEscherBlecch]

Yeah I don't get it.

These guys would have to be some serious rockstars of design and project management to make this fly for * use cases and * talent pools. I think it is more likely that they just think they are, and that they are in for a world of pain. I find it unlikely that a developer with serious chops and flexible skills will want to participate in this scheme instead of the good job/contract they probably already have working on something long term and of greater weight/interest. Likewise I find it unlikely that a good designer/project engineer with the talent to pull this off on their end will want to spend their days doing bite size projects for penny-pinching customers instead of working on big boy projects where their dev pool isn't a constantly shifting variable.

Sounds like a bubble that will burst, leaving behind a bunch of crap software with no support, unsatisfied customers, burnt out designers, rich initial investors, and worst of all, a bunch of mediocre devs who think they have skills because one time somebody paid them shit to work on some dinky webapp.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[KGIII]

That's a long ways away on a fixie.

That said, I have a novella for this! ;-) I'll skip it but someone needs to do the opposite of this. I've talked it over with a few people and I think it'd be brilliant. Imagine, if you will, something called Graybeards Incorporated where basically the employees were all freelance workers, perhaps contractors for longer terms, where you do just the difficult things - where you go in and debug old COBOL that's not been touched or documented in ten years and now has failed and nobody knows why. Except, instead of paying the least, you own the skills and you make the company pay more than fairly because you're saving their asses.

However, the Graybeards would need to be at the top of their game - the best of the best and recognized as such by their peers. They cost a lot and get to put stuff into their contracts like being allowed to wear a cape and mask or even wear their underwear on the outside of their pants if they so want. Like Geek Squad but with actual geeks that know what the hell they're doing and are willing to travel the globe - if the price is right and they can sleep in the executive lounge. However, the Graybeards would have to be not just good but exceptionally skilled.

I actually gave it some consideration. I'm kind of willing to throw a dollar or two at the idea but I have way too much on my plate this coming year. I was thinking along the lines of funding it, getting it started, and then having it as some sort of co-op where my stake can be bought out. With, of course, my taking a reasonable interest on my loan. I'm not that altruistic. ;-)

Seriously, someone should do this for you guys that are getting old. Instead of being subjected to ageist prejudices, capitalize on those old things that still require repair and crisis work. The guys who can walk in, view the layout, and see where the security problem is and then fix it... The guys who can, and will, sit in the back room in a bank basement to pour over (or convert) COBOL. The guys that still remember that FORTRAN was good... Those sorts of people but not people looking for employment so much as people looking to get paid because they're gods among mortals and know it.

Ah well... That's the non-novella version.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[GodelEscherBlecch]

I don't know, maybe I am in the minority on this, but the idea of going from gig to gig applying the same skillset and technologies to different, simple projects that are essentially siblings in complexity as opposed to unlocking new nodes in my software / domain knowledge skill tree makes me want to shoot myself. My goal is to work on software that facilitates other fields in which I actually have an interest, and where there is an abundance of complexity, IRL levity and juicy non-IT knowledge to absorb. I know I could be making more as a freelancer, but I would rather be interested in my work than marginally richer from it.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[TWX]

I can't even hire a nanny without becoming an employer who provides benefits like paid time off and payroll taxes, etc. I am not an employer, I don;t want to do any of that shit.

The solution is to contact a service company that does those tasks, and you pay the company for the privilege of doing those necessary business functions for you plus their profit, plus the funds that ultimately become the wages and benefits for the worker.

The real solution is to decouple healthcare from employment though. Make healthcare a function of a single-payer system and suddenly both the employer and the employee are much freer. A person hiring a nanny or au pair or other full-time care individual doesn't have to deal with the constantly-shifting nature of medical insurance coverage and only has to worry about following a prewritten withholdings plan that their accountant can figure out in a few minutes, and the individual employed isn't damn-near indentured to the employer just to keep the prescriptions coming.

Yes, it requires more taxes to be paid than are being paid now. But, it probably reduces the total cost compared to the insurance situation now because a lot of the massive, parasitic bureaucracy operated by both the medical companies and the medical insurance companies can be simplified. Sure, those whose jobs to push paperwork for claims will probably have to find other lines of work, but this isn't the first time that a middleman position has been eliminated and it won't be the last.

I suspect that in the case of entites like the one discussed in the article, they appeal to entry-level programmers that don't have a lot of experience to use to get hired, and who are still nominally dependent on their parents and haven't really ventured out on their own yet. They can afford to be intermittendly unemployed and they might still receive benefits through other means. That's a luxury that most of us don't have.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[KGIII]

I see a few downsides but I've been predicting this for years. It's even turning out a lot like I've expected it to. Well, in part... I guess I should have expected this.

See, I do have one complaint that I think we'll see here like we've seen with Uber. The people who go into this, knowing what it is, will get in and start doing this (knowing full well what the deal is) and then sue to be treated as employees. It's not that I have a problem with labor laws nor do I think we should mistreat employees or contractors - I'm pretty damned clear on how I've treated those who helped me keep my business succeed. But, if you go into something knowingly and accept those conditions knowingly then, it just seems shitty to then try to alter the deal. It's not like the company altered the deal (that I know of). You agreed to the bargain, you're free to leave if you no longer agree.

So, I see this as being a potential issue in the long-term. How many companies are going to want to hire gig workers if they know they're going to get sued? It seems like a pretty crappy thing for them to be doing. They took the gig and knew what it was (or should have) before going in. This isn't, of course, a hard and fast thing and I'm sure there are some abuses to be thought up and situations where they're being treated unfairly because the company wasn't honest.

I never employed freelancers or contractors. I preferred to pay them enough to stay. The closest I came was funding some research but I'm an evil bastard and I hired a couple of the students that did the work. I know, I know... But, in my defense, it was hard to find people who were traffic engineers, programmers, and weren't involved in fleet management or trains. So, yeah, I might have poached a couple of people. For some definition of "a couple of."

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[phantomfive]

That doesn't actually seem to be what's happening here, though. Maybe eventually.
Look at their website, and you won't see a place to sign up as a freelance developer. All their marketing is aimed at getting projects. It seems like they have a bunch of developers internally who are normal employees, building up apps and stuff.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Anonymous Coward]

>> the vast majority of us on Slashdot have far better lives than the average person could ever hope for

Which is exactly why we should shut down bs like 'uber of software development' when we see it coming our way

The bean counters have been working to marginalize us for the last couple decades and will continue to, to them we are a commodity that can be reduced like any cost

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[TsuruchiBrian]

The real solution is to decouple healthcare from employment though. Make healthcare a function of a single-payer system and suddenly both the employer and the employee are much freer.

Absolutely. This also removes much of the disincentives for hiring older people or people with medical problems.

I suspect that in the case of entites like the one discussed in the article, they appeal to entry-level programmers that don't have a lot of experience to use to get hired, and who are still nominally dependent on their parents and haven't really ventured out on their own yet. They can afford to be intermittendly unemployed and they might still receive benefits through other means. That's a luxury that most of us don't have.

I suspect that this is largely true, but low skill (e.g. entry level, or just bad) programmers are probably going to have a much harder time making a living doing this kind of work than an experienced programmer, given that they are paid by the project rather than hourly. I imagine the stress of finishing projects fast enough to earn a decent living would be a pretty inhospitable environment for those programmers. If it's possible to make a decent living for low skilled programmers, then it would also be possible for a high skilled programmer to make a fortune.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[estsauver]

I signed up with them to do some engineering work. The work I've been doing for them at least would certainly fall into the independent contractor territory as far as I can tell. I don't have to take any piece of work, work is only controlled at the weekly level etc.

Re: Uber of Software Development?

[cyber-vandal]

Great for a few people. The majority were dying in their 40s from preventable diseases or industrial accidents.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[ranton]

Lol, I thought he meant per hour.

I did :-(

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Scarletdown]

It is their choice whether or not to participate. If a programmer does not want to work under this model, he or she is free to develop under a model that suits their preference. No one is holding a gun to any programmer's head and demanding that they must participate in this program.

You do have the right to say no.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[TWX]

I suspect that this is largely true, but low skill (e.g. entry level, or just bad) programmers are probably going to have a much harder time making a living doing this kind of work than an experienced programmer, given that they are paid by the project rather than hourly. I imagine the stress of finishing projects fast enough to earn a decent living would be a pretty inhospitable environment for those programmers. If it's possible to make a decent living for low skilled programmers, then it would also be possible for a high skilled programmer to make a fortune.

It depends on the customer really. One thing that I've learned through the years doing technical services is that companies that charge the least get the worst and least-educated customers. The business can possibly make a profit if overhead is kept down and if volume is kept up, but it's very hard on the end-worker at times when they're getting crapped on from both the boss and from the customer. On the other hand, an ignorant customer can be strung-along for a lot longer than an educated customer and in the end might pay the same through excess hours than if they had gone with the skilled, more expensive organization from the outset.

In this case of code-for-hire if the customer has an idea for something or has a need for a software for a special purpose, they might not be knowledgeable enough to know how to shop around for a good developer. They could end up with one, or they could look for an on-paper cheaper developer but end up having to approve cost-overruns and other unforeseen expenses. Don't forget, part of typical boiler-plate contracts is that until paid the developer owns the code; I've known of cases where the customer wouldn't or couldn't pay and the developer actually went into the customer's business to profit off of the code that he wrote.

It'll be an interesting market to watch. Could be good, or could be crap.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Anonymous Coward]

I pick up jobs through gigster and make around $288/hr. Seriously. Although I do have a full time job so I'm able to cherry pick the project that I know I can finish fast and have a high payout. I know that gigster hides who I am to the client which I am fine with. Dealing directly with a client is one of the things I hate most about freelancing.

- cory

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[TsuruchiBrian]

What I am saying is that even if a bad developer and a good developer are charging the same price to finish a project, the good developer will probably make more money over time because he/she will finish the project in less time, and generate better code.

A good developer could probably make more money than a bad developer even if they are charging a fraction of the price to finish projects.

If a customer was paying per hour, they might have to make this calculation of paying a higher $/hour but maybe finishing sooner vs. paying a lower $/hr a potentially less qualified developer, and potentially paying more over the long run. If you are paying for a whole project, all that goes out the window.

I think a customer choosing a developer offering the lowest price for a project, has a pretty good chance of getting one of the better developers. A developer able to complete a project in a few days might be willing to charge like $5000, where an under qualified developer might need to charge $10000 just to be making minimum wage given how long it might take them.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[GodelEscherBlecch]

That's why I added the word 'contract'. My point is that, reviewing the case studies on their site, they all look boring as shit to work on if one has any interest in writing software that actually does something of significance or in a field that is interesting. No disrespect if that's your thing, but I find it hard to grasp being passionate in a medium and not caring at all about where you apply it. If I was an awesome graphic designer I don't think I would be looking to work on Target inserts in the Sunday paper, even if it did pay well.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[GodelEscherBlecch]

'security clearance' is not exactly a rare thing to be qualified for, and generally seems to just mean you have not committed and do not seem likely to commit any financial or cyber crimes. I have one (plus frequent background and credit checks) for each project I am on, and my past is far from spotless. I think my shit is just not the shit they are worried about. Maybe you are working on some secret squirrel shit for DoD and yours is really shiny, but the 10 or so I have were not hard to come by.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[NormalVisual]

People with security clearances aren't that difficult to come by, but having the clearance isn't the hard part. If you're going to be doing freelance work that requires a clearance, odds are your facility and security procedures are also going to have to be approved for the work, and that can get expensive. For some things, that may just mean a locking file cabinet. For others, it may mean you have to work in an air-gapped environment enclosed inside a Faraday cage and all deliverables have to be under two-man control anytime they're outside the facility, with signed logs documenting anytime anyone checked out code or touched the delivery media.

I had a clearance for many years, but none of the work I did would have been something I could have done at home or at my own office without spending thousands of dollars to make it suitable, not including the cost of periodic audits.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[ls671]

I wonder how this can work. It is hard enough to define the requirements and build the product to fit the needs when you know the customers. Imagine when you don't!

http://www.tamingdata.com/2010...
 

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[ATMAvatar]

America was pretty great in early 1929. Not so much by the end of the year, though.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[KGIII]

The beard isn't required but you may, should you want, place into any contracts the right to wear a fake beard while performing your work. My original idea was Neckbeards and someone suggested the change. Any social justice types who wish to seek contract work through them would, of course, be eligible but we're going to need references, examples of prior work, and a probably need to have been effectively sponsored by someone else. A sort of Web of Trust type of deal on top of it should help to keep unqualified people away. Now, if they're (somehow) qualified then they are more than welcome. They can even put the right to wear pink combat gear into their contracts.

If they don't like the name, screw 'em. They'll get over it in a few short weeks.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[KGIII]

Oh, heh... No, I can fund it on my own and get it started. It's time and contacts that I'm lacking. I know lots of applicable people but they're rather entrenched in a different field and seem to be happy there. (Otherwise, they'd have left.) I know some from here. But, I've got at least one very busy year coming up. That's the real kicker. I won't be free to any commitments until this coming November, at the earliest. Funding isn't really much of a problem, I don't imagine.

The companies who are vying for the talent would have to pay enough for the workers to leave current jobs and take that risk. Basically, just some staff and some property would get it started (with overhead). I'd then pay the workers out of pocket until repaid by the company. Some amount of that would have to go to overhead, growing the business, etc... Then I'd get, when that's done, a portion of my investment back until it was all repaid. Then the business could (should) co-op, contractually agree to pay me a portion of profits until I'm fully repaid, and kick me to the curb 'cause I kind of like being retired and I don't want to be the boss.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[KGIII]

I might have enjoyed a life like that. Until fairly recent in history, we didn't have one employer. We didn't have one skill. We might have worked on a farm, for example, but our employers where those we traded with. We worked for them while, of course, working for ourselves. (Today we trade time and skill for green bits of paper but the trade economy is there, it's just abstracted away.)

We'll return to that with some being small employers and some doing something akin to subsistence farming (which may take little effort). We'll take up tasks in return for goods, bits of paper, credits, what have you. We'll trade more directly and interconnectivity, global communication, will be the the interesting part. Sure, we'll be doing subsistence work but for whom and how?

As an interesting aside; Not long ago, I watched a documentary and then went on a reading binge. There are some who believe we're dumber now than we've ever been. What? Well, we used to have to know how to hunt, kill, skin, preserve, carry, grow, trade, prepare, and provide food while knowing what will or will not kill us. Now, we're specialized where one person grows, one person prepares, etc... They also used farming as a good example to make their point.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Hognoxious]

You might, but they don't.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[goarilla]

As an interesting aside; Not long ago, I watched a documentary and then went on a reading binge. There are some who believe we're dumber now than we've ever been. What? Well, we used to have to know how to hunt, kill, skin, preserve, carry, grow, trade, prepare, and provide food while knowing what will or will not kill us. Now, we're specialized where one person grows, one person prepares, etc... They also used farming as a good example to make their point.

I don't think we're really dumber, we're just a lot more reliant on the services of our current environment.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[__aaclcg7560]

I think my shit is just not the shit they are worried about.

My two-hour background interview lasted four hours because the government thought it was odd that I lived in the same apartment for ten years and I had multiple, sometimes overlapping jobs after being out of work for two years (2009-10) and filing for bankruptcy in 2011. Normal "shit" is that most people move every three years or so and have only one job.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[Gr8Apes]

I pick up jobs through gigster and make around $288/hr. Seriously.

There's always got to be someone hawking the product or no one else will try the "get rich quick" scheme.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[tehcyder]

Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me.

Then don't participate.

The point is that once the "gig economy" takes over you won't have any choice about participating.

Your comment is about as useful as saying to a child chimney sweep in the 1850s that they are perfectly free to start their own business instead.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[tehcyder]

As a primary job it is indeed pretty bleak. Depending on pay level though I could see it as a pretty decent second job to pad income. I've already got stability and health insurance and the like through my main job. If however, I could take on some projects on something like this on the side I could potentially save up a better down payment on my next car, or pay down my mortgage a bit, etc.

If you can afford the time and effort to do a second job, your primary job must be pretty low level.

Either that or you're a failed human being with no interests outside earning money.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[tehcyder]

It is their choice whether or not to participate. If a programmer does not want to work under this model, he or she is free to develop under a model that suits their preference. No one is holding a gun to any programmer's head and demanding that they must participate in this program.

You do have the right to say no.

Yes, you do at the moment.

Re:Uber of Software Development?

[TsuruchiBrian]

The point is that once the "gig economy" takes over you won't have any choice about participating.

Obviously *if* the "gig economy" takes over *all* the jobs, then you won't have any choice but to have a gig economy job. In every other scenario, you will have a choice. You might as well say, if hoverboards take over transportation, you will not have any choice but to use hoverboards. I reject the premise that the "gig economy" will be so dominant as to eliminate all other modes of employment.

Your comment is about as useful as saying to a child chimney sweep in the 1850s that they are perfectly free to start their own business instead.

If you were really going to use this analogy properly to try to characterize my position, it would be "Your comment is about as useful as saying to a child chimney sweep in the 1850s that they are perfectly free to get a job at a factory."

The fact is that plenty of normal jobs exist out there. Nobody is forced to be an uber driver or a gigster software developer. Go ask a bunch of uber drivers why they don;t get a job at walmart where they will have benefits and stability, and they will tell you that they'd rather work as an uber driver (i.e. they are choosing to be an uber driver out of all the choices they have). You can do the reverse with walmart employees.

So what's your answer to solving the problem of child chimney sweeps in the 1850's? Make child chimney sweeping illegal, so the kids go from 1 choice to 0 choices?

What co wouldn't want to be the Uber of something?

[Anonymous Coward]

Get away with breaking the law for extended periods, become vastly overhyped by the media without adding anything of value for anyone?

lol, ok

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not like "take me from A to B", where the only room for interpretation is the route. In the end, you're still at B.

Anyone who has ever written a spec and handed it off will tell you what you get back is not what you asked for, regardless of how detailed it is. Just giving someone an idea to code will result in something unrecognizable.

I'm all for these APIs that sit on top of people like drivers and housekeepers, but this one is a shit idea and everyone involved should know that.

Re:lol, ok

[Aighearach]

Just giving someone an idea to code will result in something unrecognizable.

Of course, but if the "idea" part includes the use case, the result could be better than what they asked for.

Requirements

[Capt.Albatross]

Previous schemes like this have run into problems getting the requirements straight, and with estimating. Don't tell me that in the agile world, these things don't matter: they matter in the real world, where your customers live.

Re:Requirements

[Anonymous Coward]

But this isn't in your antiquated "real world", old man. This is in the CLOUD.

Re:Requirements

[blankinthefill]

I would argue that in the agile world, it matters just as much if not more, especially with their desire to charge a flat fee. From the article: " A sales engineer discusses proposals with clients, and using the AI engine, comes back with a price quote and production schedule in about 10 minutes. Then Gigster manages the entire development process through delivery of the fully-functional app." This implies to me that they are coming up with this fee and the full schedule at the start, from someone who isn't going to be that closely invested in the actual development of the app (and who likely is going to miss a LOT of what's going to go in that development. I know some very good sales engineers, but they are almost all behind the development curve just due to the fact that they don't DO development regularly, if at all.) That's not agile. That's the antithesis of agile. The entire point of agile is that you can't know right from the start how exactly a project is going to turn out, and what kinds of roadblocks you'll encounter. And especially with the development of original apps, unexpected events are going to crop up. The agile method is built to zero in on requirements during the process of development, and to actually allow an estimate to be just that, an estimate of time and cost. And yes yes, I know that agile can't be completely open ended, but the entire point is to be flexible in your development so you can easily adjust when problems arise, which, again, is NOT what this company seems to be doing. This company is not doing that at all, they're like the epitome of waterfall style development. Which means they have to be nearly perfect at requirements and estimating, which is nearly impossible. And I think you're right that it will almost certainly come back and bite them in the ass. (And that's ignoring the bullshit sharing economy/labor issues involved.)

Re:Requirements

[phantomfive]

Even if they (somehow) get the requirements exactly right, when was the last time you made a software product that didn't need constant maintenance and improvement? Giving up ownership of the code is going to seriously hamper you.

Re:Requirements

[Tablizer]

Previous schemes like this have run into problems getting the requirements straight...

In general, if coordinating domain issues (business requirements) are not the bottleneck, then something is wrong.

In the desktop days, typical in-house or custom CRUD software was relatively easy to make such that knowing and working with the domain was the bottleneck, like it should be, not the technical details.

However, the web stack came along and complicated CRUD UI's, making it an arcane labor-intensive art with too many layers: server side code, client side code, HTML, CSS, a framework of some sort, and the database. In the desktop days you usually just had the app code and the database. They were aesthetically ugly, but did the job well.

It's true that if one masters a web framework, they can be quite proficient, but it's hard to find replacement devs who know the same framework well.

If the screwy web-stack remains a must*, then an org still needs an analyst/coordinator who knows the domain ropes. Otherwise, you dump the analyst problem onto end-users, who are then constantly in contact with the contractor trying to tune the software via trial and error.

They can eventually get it right, but they are usually not skilled enough in software design to ask the right questions up front such that the wheel gets reinvented the hard way. An experienced analyst can spot potential rough or fuzzy spots up front so that they don't sneak up after the fact. The later you add a feature in the design cycle, the more shanty-town-like becomes the product.

Co's always seem to want to cut corners by chopping out the "middle man" analyst, but it usually backfires by complicating end users' lives and making a mess of the software.

True, if you have a bad analyst, then having no analyst may be the better option. But if the org wants to do it right, find good analysts and give them time to learn your domain.

If they are good, they can often leverage existing staff so that outsourcing is not necessary.

* Web UI's simplified desktop support's job by removing the installation steps (if done right) and DLL Hell, but not without trade-offs.

Re:Requirements

[Tablizer]

There's always a market selling to PHB's who don't know better and don't care to ask, so are riding the Learn-The-Hard-Way Express.

Marketers are trained to find and spot gullible PHB's, like a leopard spotting wounded prey a mile away.

Re:Requirements

[Anonymous Coward]

> price quote and production schedule in about 10 minutes

If you can price and time estimate software in 10 minutes it either does nothing or you know absolutely nothing about the requirements.

Re:Requirements

[phantomfive]

Marketers are trained to find and spot gullible PHB's, like a leopard spotting wounded prey a mile away.

That's a quote worth posting somewhere.

Re:Requirements

[KGIII]

That brings new meaning to, "Old man yells at clouds." He was probably yelling 'cause they took his job!

Re:Requirements

[phantomfive]

From the article: " A sales engineer discusses proposals with clients, and using the AI engine, comes back with a price quote and production schedule in about 10 minutes. Then Gigster manages the entire development process through delivery of the fully-functional app." This implies to me that they are coming up with this fee and the full schedule at the start,

You can see a price list here (scroll down). From the looks of it, the way they manage risk is by vastly overcharging for the work, and then in most cases they'll be able to make a profit.

Re:Requirements

[Aighearach]

He was yelling because he didn't save for a rainy day.

Don't worry, there is room in the future for old men yelling at clouds. http://everyoneishereinthefutu... (medical warning: flashing lights) AmishGuy2006 is about ten minutes in. He definitely isn't liking the cloud.

Re:Requirements

[Hognoxious]

Otherwise, you dump the analyst problem onto end-users, who are then constantly in contact with the contractor trying to tune the software via trial and error.

I thought that's what all this agile shit was about?

Re:Requirements

[Tablizer]

That's one of the things that bothers me about agile: one ends up reinventing lessons that an experienced analyst has learned the hard way. It can work, but it takes longer and more resources.

Projects overall don't fail because experienced analysts are no good, but because of organizational bullshit. If you can train everybody on agile, you can also train them on avoiding org bullshit. If the second can fail, so can the first.

Re:Requirements

[Hognoxious]

Not so sure about that. OBS is pretty powerful. Take the concept of internal customers (who often aren't being charged, at least not directly in real actual money) and add it to the mantra that "the customer is always right" (usually said loudest by those who don't have to deal with the bastards) and you have a culture where the devs act like ten dollar whores and don't say "no" to anything, big picture be damned.

Agile is a technique. You can learn techniques. Doing the right thing - rather than the easy, or popular one - a matter of character, and that's to a certain extent innate.

"Leasing" the software out?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why it wont be successful.

Re:"Leasing" the software out?

[ranton]

"Leasing" the software out?

This is why it wont be successful.

They didn't mention what kind of terms are given. The lease could give unlimited rights to use, modify, and distribute the code. Gigster would still retain the ability to re-use code even if they gave these terms to the client. It doesn't have to work like leasing a car where there are monthly payments and a limited term length.

Re:"Leasing" the software out?

[Lab Rat Jason]

The issue I see with this isn't actually the lease stuff, that seems pretty straightforward. The problem at hand is managing the rats-nest of code produced by doing several hundred projects. Who is going to have enough knowledge of each project to know where the assets are and what they can be used for... they're trying to gain efficiency through re-use, but there's no way you can maintain that control... you're going to give access to all of these apps and ideas to every developer in your network? They'll use that info to obtain zero day exploits to the apps that have been built, and attempt to inject their own backdoors into apps. No thank you!

Re:"Leasing" the software out?

[Lab Rat Jason]

You miss the point: giving partial access to a small group of uncontrolled and unaccountable users is WAY different than making it open source or keeping it closed source. Both of those would provide better security than what they are proposing.

Puper wants...

[Moof123]

Puper wants to be the Uber of your bowel movements.

Use the app to send in your request for texture, color, and any add-ons (corn being a favorite). Puper will show up to your door with your "delivery"!

As if devs don't have enough to worry about

[ErichTheRed]

I can just see some non-technical IT manager in your average in-house IT department looking at this as a replacement for "expensive" developers. "Hey, look, I can get a bunch of kids and desperate age-discriminated developers to do your job for half the price!" In that way, it is the Uber of coding -- driving out any way to make a living from low-end work.

People like to point to the recent $15/hr minimum wage debate and laugh, but I'm not surprised it's coming up. If average people who would otherwise have a decent corporate job with a good salary and benefits have to resort to hustling for work, a fast food job might be a better option. At least you'd only have to string 2 or 3 of those jobs together to make ends meet instead of hustling 9 or 10 "gigs".

I doubt high-end development will be impacted, but your average "write me a web front end for this data set" coder might be in trouble.

Re:As if devs don't have enough to worry about

[__aaclcg7560]

If average people who would otherwise have a decent corporate job with a good salary and benefits have to resort to hustling for work, a fast food job might be a better option.

Written by someone who never tried to look for a fast food job after being out of work from a technical job. When I was unemployed for two years (2009-10), I couldn't get a minimum wage job because managers would say I was overqualified and leave for a better job when the economy improves. Besides, they got all these teenagers and illegals looking for minimum wage jobs. I spent two years working two technical jobs for seven days a week to get back on my feet.

Re:As if devs don't have enough to worry about

[__aaclcg7560]

When I was unemployed for two years (2009-10), there was seven applicants for every job opening. Today it might still be three applicants for every job opening. A normal economy has two applicants for every job opening. This economy is anything but normal.

Re:As if devs don't have enough to worry about

[nitehawk214]

I can just see some non-technical IT manager in your average in-house IT department looking at this as a replacement for "expensive" developers. "Hey, look, I can get a bunch of kids and desperate age-discriminated developers to do your job for half the price!" In that way, it is the Uber of coding -- driving out any way to make a living from low-end work.

Any manager with that mentality already outsourced a decade ago.

And many of them have gone out of business by now.

Even before outsourcing was the big thing I worked at a company that considered IT staff as a "necessary evil" that cost money but provided no benefit to the company. Our department got a lecture about how we were all overpayed since we were 10% of the employees, but made 40% of the salaries. "Uhh, yeah boss, that is because our jobs require a college degree, while a good portion of the company did not even graduate high school." I am glad I am at a point where I never have to work for an asshole like that again.

No

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop it, stop trying to be the Uber of *insert industry*. It's not for the workers, it's not good for the industry. Stop

what could possibly go wrong?

[Gravis Zero]

Sure, I'll write you a great app for that below insultingly amount of money. I pinky swear it won't have any backdoors.

Re:what could possibly go wrong?

[Jason Levine]

Or vulnerabilities. If Gigster winds up paying their developers the least amount possible, how long until their developers realize they get paid the same whether or not they sanitize that user input. User submitted a name of "Robert'); Drop Table Students; --"? No problem. Just stick that in the query and run it.

Re: what could possibly go wrong?

[BarbaraHudson]

Just include some gpl code.

Uber works

[Anonymous Coward]

Uber works because the requirements are clear: drive someone from point A to B.
AirBnB works because the requirements are clear: rent a place to stay

This isn't the same. Software requirements are different every time and aren't 100% defined.

Re:Uber works

[cascadingstylesheet]

Uber works because the requirements are clear: drive someone from point A to B. AirBnB works because the requirements are clear: rent a place to stay

This isn't the same. Software requirements are different every time and aren't 100% defined.

Precisely this.

Real programmers and business analysts find requirements and estimating hard. These guys will get it right - really super right, they'd have to - in 10 minutes? Because apps and AI?

Re:"r" is the new "i"

[Anonymous Coward]

Appers won't app as they did before. Now there's an app to let appers app by a tenth of the price. Appers goona love this app.

Apps!

I have an idea for an app....

[flarb936]

Every time someone says to me, "You make apps?? I have this idea..." I'll just refer them to this site whether it's good or not. I just need an effective way to shut down these conversations immediately.

Re:I have an idea for an app....

[Anonymous Coward]

I like to ask for a copy of their full business plan, one that suitable to present to a bank for financing. Most people aren't serious enough to spend their own time on one and then they expect me to spend my time on their idea.

Case Studies

[coop247]

Their highlighted case studies (https://gigster.com/success-stories) are quite funny. One of them is a "site down" page. The financial planning one breaks the second you change a value. The others are Twitter Bootstrap sites with minor modifications. Success!

Re: Case Studies

[Anonymous Coward]

Mind Bill Gates "if you can't make it good, make it look good"

Already exists

[jandrese]

There are already several websites that claim to hook up developers with people who have small problems. They all suffer from the same problem: They're full of "idea men" who have no idea how much labor costs and shitty developers who don't give a crap about the work. You'll see jobs like "develop the database backend and website for a 500 million user website on this idea so clever I can't put it in the description or someone will steal it. Budget: $150."

And then endless complaints from employers that the code delivered was shoddy and barely met the (horribly under-specified) requirements and they couldn't use it.

Caveat?

[Etherwalk]

That's not a caveat, it's a bloody big guy with a chainsaw. It's like uber saying... "and we're the only people who can drive you this way again..."

I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means

[ehartwell]

"Gigster charges a flat fee, which the company is getting better at determining, so there is no incentive for developers to work more hours and run up charges"

I do not think their definition of software development matches what we do for a living. Seems to me the time spent matches the difficulty of the problem, not the greed of the developer. Unless, of course, you're reinventing code you already invented, in which case you can "estimate" precisely...

"It converts a client’s product proposal into a development plan, and helps Gigster’s army of remote developers plug in pre-made code blocks to efficiently build the app."

Surely if you're just hooking up pre-made code blocks, then you can do it yourself without paying the middleman. Either this is just another name for a consulting company, or their business model involves paying developers piecework rates. They don't seem to realize that if we want to develop for no pay we can do open source, and still use the product ourselves.

Re:What co wouldn't want to be the Uber of somethi

[Grishnakh]

This isn't really like Uber or anything like that, because I don't see how Gigster would be violating the law. You're probably thinking of employment law, but your mistake is thinking that US employment law applies in India. It doesn't.

Why no "uber" of prostitution?

[tekrat]

Simply call it "body sharing" or "body gigs" so you can skirt prostitution laws. Make an app where you rent out your sexual favors. After all, if Uber can ignore Taxi laws, escorts should be able to do the same.

But what they need is an app -- hmmm. Maybe these guys can make that app for me, and I'll start a business worth 40 billion like Uber.

Re:Why no "uber" of prostitution?

[Faust6]

The magic word is "escort". It would be genius because it would work without divulging contact information to the public.

Re:Everybody wants to be a middleman

[aicrules]

in this case they're providing design/architectural services in addition to bringing developers to the table to do the actual coding. But while you can't automate that, if the coders just have to know how to do those design/architectural services or if that part gets Gigstered out too, then it could be all automated.

Retaining core competency = retaining value

[StandardCell]

Who the hell is going to derive any value from this scheme for their company? You can't build core competencies around ongoing development with a la carte development unless your product is just that cookie cutter simple, in which case you're probably already too late to the game.

It's crap like this that to me sounds like the beginning of the end for Dotcom bubble 2.0. People think that outsourcing grunt work is some new thing and that it will solve all problems.

Game theory

[lorinc]

And what are you doing? Not playing the game? Then, somebody else will do, and you will get no job at all.

The impressive paradox of the sharing economy is closely related to game theory. It takes only one guy to accept the concept to make it inevitable to everybody else. If you're the only one guy to participate, it's not at all a race to the bottom, it's a jackpot. However, if we're all doing that, then it's clearly a race to the bottom (not only for those who do, but for the others too because of the competition).

So if you're participating, you are contributing to the race to the bottom. And if you're not, you will get screwed by those who do. In either case, you loose.

BTW, welcome to what climate change negotiators must feel right now in Paris.

"Gigster"? How about ...

[fahrbot-bot]

... Guber - 'cause they think we're all chumps.

No, thanks

[bettega]

Gigster will still own the code to the app it designs for you, and it "leases" the software to you

No, thank you.

this is a good thing!

[slashdice]

The next time some jackass (I mean, "non-technical co-founder") asks if you can build his facebook clone (for free, of course), you can 302 him gigster.

Re: From licensing agreement.

[messymerry]

Gigsta, gangsta, they sound too much alike... Spoctor Din

Re:Haters gonna hate

[messymerry]

I need a simple little app that we can sell for a buck or three. We'll split it 50/50. Anybod interested???

so you get no source code?

[umafuckit]

Presumably if they "still own the code" you get no source for the product you paid for. No thanks: been burned this way before with commercial software. Ended up having to re-build and re-engineer the shit I paid for in order to get something that doesn't suck.

Re:so you get no source code?

[GodelEscherBlecch]

Maybe I just work in a strange niche industry, but I have never seen source code be a deliverable of a project. I get paid to deliver solutions, not hand over the IP.

Re:so you get no source code?

[umafuckit]

You may well be correct.

Re:Gigster here

[GodelEscherBlecch]

Before I was just skeptical about the Gigster business model. Now I am convinced that it is a cult of some sort.

If you can be replaced by this...

[thesandtiger]

... you really suck at being a developer.

n00b Trap

[Xyrus]

These assholes aren't even trying to hide the fact that they are trying blatantly ripping people off. I guess they're betting on people being both desperate and stupid.

Seriously, just write your own software. Pick something you like and write it. If it's good enough, try to sell or at the very least demo it at job interviews. You will be much better off.

X makes apps = oohing and aahing

[stimpleton]

I, unfortunately, work for a company that is broad driven, feed by info from mangers who know little.
If the statement "X company makes apps for mobiles" gets thrown in at some meeting or after-fives, suddenly this gets the managers attention who pass this to the board who approve funding.
"Makes app" is interpreted as the magically know our companies processes, requirements etc. And ensuing software must be but a few weeks away.
So I can see this "Uber of apps" thing hooking some fish on their long line.

Re:Gigster here

[NormalVisual]

Before judging, please, check out Gigster, try to ask real Gigster or users of Gigster, and see if we are as bad as you think.

Don't have to, I read the contract. It's a joke. I basically have to assume all of the risk if the customer isn't happy with the deliverable (regardless of what the requirements specified), and then if things get bad enough to go to court, I can't even do that - I have to submit to binding arbitration in a locality 3,000 miles away. On top of that, I have to agree to indemnify Gigster if the customer sues them over some code that I wrote.

No thanks.

I do iOS engineering through Gigster

[atlex2]

Marketplaces like Gigster give self disciplined developers options. Gigster is simply a marketplace for development work. Jobs get sent to me, and I either accept them or pass on them depending on their price, my current needs and level of interest. It's really that simple.

My perspective is as a life-long iOS engineer, since age 16. My first app "gig" in 2012 I made 3k to build an entire app AND web server, because I didn't have better options. Options are what's empowering about Gigster for developers.

I'm a 10-year Slashdot lurker– but I felt like throwing my hat in on this one. I'm proud of the work I've done with Gigster.

So it has come to this.

[Phiu-x]

Fuck'em !

Didn't this used to be known as Open Source ..

[nickweller]

Didn't this used to be known as Open Source ..

not a fair deal for their customers either

[Anonymous Coward]

Reuse certain components? How much exactly? I smell bullshit. Every contracted developer faces the same problem, and they solve it by assigning copyright to you who paid them for it sometimes with explicit reuse rights in contract, but I have never heard of them offering to "lease" the buyer the code. So you pay for it, they keep it, but you can use it for a bit.

Sounds like a shitty business concept and only reason it got any press was the "Uber" PR angle. Like calling your fanfiction "The next Twilight!" Dream on.

It's just typing (and you overuse colons)

[Hognoxious]

Almost anyone within a ~50 mile radius can drive a car and work for Uber, the same cannot be said for software development.

No, in that case it's more like 12,500 miles.

Driving is an un-skilled labor profession. Software development isn't.

Some software development isn't. Good luck convincing a PHB of even that.