Slashdot Mirror


Asteroid Impact Helped Create the Birds We Know Today (sciencemag.org)

sciencehabit writes: Every bird alive today can trace its ancestry to creatures that lived about 95 million years ago on a chunk of land that split off from the supercontinent Gondwana, a new study suggests. The new family tree, compiled using information from fossils and from genetic analyses of modern birds, also reveals that this lineage underwent a major burst of evolution after an asteroid slammed into Earth about 66 million years ago and killed off the rest of their dinosaurian kin.

39 of 67 comments (clear)

  1. Different Interpretation by VernonNemitz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We know that the dinosaur group filled most of the world's ecological niches, and when the Chicxulub event happened, a vast number of niches had their occupants wiped out. All we need do is assume that for any species, there is a reasonably constant mutation rate, and most mutants won't survive when there are better-adapted competitors already in a given ecological niche. If the mutant can find a different niche, though, then its chance of survival goes up a lot. So, no need to assume a "burst of evolution" when the simpler explanation is a "burst of opened opportunities", thanks to all those wiped-out competitors.

    1. Re:Different Interpretation by war4peace · · Score: 2

      with "burst of opportunities" being the cause, indeed, that doesn't necessarily mean that a "burst of evolution" ensues. I think that evolution accelerates when ther is NOT a plethora of opportunities, because species are forced to specialize in various niches.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    2. Re:Different Interpretation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It does give a second chance through. Once a slot is filled by something that works a mutation that would lead into that niche cannot compete. It is unlikely that the first incarnation of a creature with short gliding hops could compete with a more optimized flier.

    3. Re:Different Interpretation by KGIII · · Score: 2

      I imagine there's a bit more nuance to it. Life finds a way. Sure, you *may* get a "burst of evolution" when specialization is required because you may end up with more unique mutations being viable. How viable are those in the long-term? Then, at the other end of the spectrum, if there's a diverse group to seed the the now vacant positions then it's likely that you'll see a "burst of evolution" at those points as well. It might even be that those bursts are greater in population numbers but with less variation.

      At least that's what I'm thinking. It's seems difficult to really state, with any authority, what will happen and even stating what has happened is not a complete picture and is subject to change. One of the things I find fascinating is how much information and views have changed. (We did not even suspect that birds came from dinosaurs when I was a child but we did study evolution.) What's been most amazing about that is how little we now know that we don't know. A good example is how so many things keep turning out to be much older than we expected.

      So, I think we'll find it's more nuanced and there's a whole hell of a lot of other data points to consider before we can make an authoritative statement about which, what, why, or when these bursts of evolution happened. We can probably narrow down on or two traits fairly well, for some areas, and maybe even three of them in various groupings. For some, we might even get all four.

      Ah well... I am not a biologist or anything. I do watch a bunch of documentaries and read a lot. I could easily be mistaken. It does seem likely that circumstances will matter a great deal. Life finds a way but it really does seem to matter what the environment is like. They've found life in rocks, in ice, and at ocean depths that would crush almost anything on the planet. So, in closing, I dare say it's a bit more complex than can be summed up with a generic statement. :/

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    4. Re:Different Interpretation by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "So, no need to assume a "burst of evolution" when the simpler explanation is a "burst of opened opportunities""

      I think you are confusing terms. Evolution is change. A
      lot of new species did appear: that's a burst of evolution *even* if that doesn't mean an increased rate of mutations or any other biology-related change.

    5. Re:Different Interpretation by kit_triforce · · Score: 1

      The process in this scenario is called Adaptive Radiation. It occurs after every mass extinction event. Many geologic time periods end with a mass extinction and begins with an adaptive radiation. This shows in the strata (layers of rock) as a sudden change in fossils, as one set of species dies off and another takes it place. Note that these can occur both globally or locally, depending on the niche.

      The research in this article is simply pointing out which events (out of many hundreds) precipitated and supported avian evolution.

    6. Re:Different Interpretation by dywolf · · Score: 1

      you're not disagreeing with the article. it even says what you said. youre not actually saying something different.

      but the point of the article is why the bird lineages we have today, and not the other lineages we also know about that died out.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    7. Re:Different Interpretation by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      (We did not even suspect that birds came from dinosaurs when I was a child but we did study evolution.)

      Wow, that would make you about 160, maybe even 180 (I forget when the Saurischian/ Ornithischian split within the dinosaurs was recognised, even though it's confusing to this question).

      Archaeopteryx lithographica, the first specimen, was found in 1860 and described in 1861. The first skeletal specimen was found a few weeks or months later (the exact date of discovery of the feather isn't quite clear) and reported much more quickly. Ever since then, it has been game over for non-dinosaur origins for birds. (Pterosaurs, Mosasaurs and Ichthyosaurs are all, of course, not dinosaurs even though they were contemporaneous with the dinosaurs.)

      A good example is how so many things keep turning out to be much older than we expected.

      If you think for one second about it, the probability that the first fossil of an X which you find is actually a very early specimen of the type of animals classed as X, is quite low. It is only in quite rare circumstances (Solenhofen, of Archaeopteryx fame being a rare example) that you get essentially 100% removal of rock from an area, and close examination of that rock for fossils. (At Solenhofen, this was because of the need for flawless slabs of very fine limestone for printing.) Otherwise, the fossils which are found are a sample (with statistical biases) of the fossils which are in the rock, and the fossils which are in the rock are themselves a sample of the organisms which were present in the environment. So, the likelihood is that the first time you find (and identify) an X, it is from some significant time after the first appearance of X.

      (I forgot to mention the biases in identification of fossils. People do make mistakes ; the 8th Archaeopteryx specimen spent some decades under a label of "a Pterosaur arm" until properly identified in the 1970s.)

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  2. Thanks a lot! by nospam007 · · Score: 4, Funny

    So it's the fault of that asteroid that I have to listen to that damned mocking bird all night?

    1. Re:Thanks a lot! by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      you would not be annoyed.

      Too right. I'd be bloody furious!

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    2. Re:Thanks a lot! by Gavagai80 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Better than staying awake listening for a t-rex all night.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank
    3. Re:Thanks a lot! by gtall · · Score: 1

      Yeah, have you seen the way they eat? No manners, smacking their lips and making all those disgusting crunching sounds.

    4. Re:Thanks a lot! by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Actually, pigeons are a far greater nuisance, and a threat to our American way of life. All because of the actions of Asteroids! I called up Foreskin Humps' campaign office, but they could neither deny nor confirm any plans to ban Asteroids from entering Earth outer space . . . space.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    5. Re:Thanks a lot! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, have you seen the way they eat? No manners, smacking their lips and making all those disgusting crunching sounds.

      I think T-Rex's greatest survival strategy was they had to have a lot of Sex, because their arms were too short to masturbate.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    6. Re:Thanks a lot! by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      I'd stay up all night listening to T Rex if I didn't have to work in the morning.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    7. Re:Thanks a lot! by KGIII · · Score: 1

      If you make enough noise about it, get enough people behind you, then one of the politicians will surely claim that they have a plan and will be enacting legislation to prevent this evil asteroid menace from happening - if only you elect them. All you have to do is make enough noise and get enough people to join in the clamor with you. One of the politicians will, almost certainly, claim that they have a solution.

      To the Twitter accounts!

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    8. Re:Thanks a lot! by chipschap · · Score: 2

      The real threat to our way of life is encrypted pigeons.

    9. Re:Thanks a lot! by ami.one · · Score: 1

      Now that's insightful !
      Sadly, I have no mods points today.

    10. Re:Thanks a lot! by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Indeed!

      And it is probably just as much the fault of that asteroid that you exist in the first place (because with the extinction of the dinosaurs, the mammals of course also got a chance to evolve, with humans as one of the many results).

  3. 66 Million? Not 65 Million? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I thought it was commonly referred to as roughly 65 million years ago. Have we finally reached the point where it rounds up to 66 million?

  4. Geographical location? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    According to the article "future birds" populated western West Gondwana and didn't spread until the dinosaurs died out. In other words they would not have moved in 30 million years and then suddenly they spread wildly when the dinosaurs vanished. Looking at how animals spread today and in recent history, it looks like they spread unless there is something preventing them from spreading, such as oceans or mountains. There is no reason to think it was any different back then and either they could walk/fly around to spread or they couldn't. There could be plenty of reasons why no fossils is found in an area even though the animal existed in that area. One could be that they haven't been found, another could be that past events prevented them from being created/preserved. Lack of evidence of existence is not evidence of lack of existence.

    If "birds" existed in a greater area in low numbers and haven't been found, then the evolution explosion could be explained by multiple already existing birds growing rapidly in numbers and suddenly started to appear in the fossil records. They "cheated" and started their evolution earlier than we can detect, means the rapid appearing new diverse species was more of a growth in numbers than in species.

    Sure this is pure speculation, but I think the same goes for the version provided in the article. I never understood why it is assumed when something is found, it's the earliest or latest member of the species to have ever lived. Most likely neither would be the case, which mean the timeframe of species will have to be open ended, yet if you look up a species, you get a closed ended timeframe based on the age of found fossils. I don't think it can be any different (we have to write what we know, not what we assume), but we should always remember the disclaimer that no fossils is not proof of non existence, both in age and geographical location. If it was, then some species would die out and then suddenly revive themselves 2 million years later.

    1. Re:Geographical location? by gtall · · Score: 4, Funny

      Unless them precursor birds hadn't yet figured out how to use their feathers to fly. Many dinosaurs had feathers about the time they went extinct but couldn't get off the ground due to weight, no traffic control, really bad transponders, etc. It was hard work to fly back then.

    2. Re:Geographical location? by Sique · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you read the last paragraph of the article, you find a more detailed picture. There were already birds populating all other continents before the KT event, the Enantiornithes. But they died out together with the other dinosaurs. It was just the population of the western gondwana island, that survived, already split into the main groups of birds we know today, and from there those groups conquered the continents and radiated into all the different species of birds we know today.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    3. Re:Geographical location? by Princeofcups · · Score: 1

      According to the article "future birds" populated western West Gondwana and didn't spread until the dinosaurs died out. In other words they would not have moved in 30 million years and then suddenly they spread wildly when the dinosaurs vanished.

      Since birds are dinosaurs, then dinosaurs did not "vanish."

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    4. Re:Geographical location? by KGIII · · Score: 1

      No, no... Some random AC on Slashdot is right and the article is wrong. They might be experts in their field but, damn it, AC read the first three paragraphs in a Wikipedia article. They might have even edited an article once. Sure, it was about My Little Pony but they're officially a Wikipedia Editor and eminently more qualified than these so-called-experts could ever hope to be.

      In all fairness, there are a few topics where I'd trust *some* of the Slashdot posters more than I'd trust the journalists who were posting articles. Science, multiple schools, was an area where this was once true. Not that Slashdot was ever once "good" or anything but I dare say that I no longer am as inclined to rely on the ACs as I used to be.

      I don't recall the last article that had a thread with posters actually with domain knowledge pointing out the flaws. We get off-the-cuff, half-baked, opinions stated as facts and agreed on because they use authoritative sounding verbiage. Everything is now a conspiracy. Every science article is now wrong and the threads are populated by people who are not only certain of this they'll tell you why they're wrong.

      No, Slashdot was never good but, I might have a faulty memory, it was certainly better. Well, sometimes... Just recently, I clicked a poster's link in his signature. It took me way back to a thread I'd forgotten about. The thread was about Virtual Machines - specifically VMware. The comments were, mostly; "I'll just reboot." "It's impossible." "It will never catch on." "$300? Yeah, I'll just keep using DOS, thanks!"

      However, inside that thread, were a few people saying, "Imagine the possibilities!" They were then browbeaten into conforming and the general consensus was that the idea was horrible and it would be the end of computers as we know it.

      On second thought, no... I am remembering a past that wasn't there. Slashdot's much the same as it ever was. Keep on keeping on and let's hope it never changes. Or, more accurately perhaps, shine on you crazy diamond. I can't wait for the next thread about DNA. I'm going to postulate that it's all a hoax.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  5. Re:66 Million? Not 65 Million? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I thought it was commonly referred to as roughly 65 million years ago. Have we finally reached the point where it rounds up to 66 million?

    That was a million years ago. You just sit and watch news day after day and suddenly the time passes without you noticing.

  6. Oh, have you not heard? by jfdavis668 · · Score: 4, Funny

    It is my understanding that everyone had heard...

    1. Re:Oh, have you not heard? by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      Birds flock, not herd.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    2. Re:Oh, have you not heard? by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      A well a everybody's heard about the bird

  7. Re:66 Million? Not 65 Million? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    Yeah, it was last Thursday.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  8. Mysterious... by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

    Was there a giant obelisk involved?

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  9. Re:Summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    1. 1% of dinos could fly.
    2. Asteroid hit earth
    3. 99.9% of dinos died
    4. 100% of all dinos can fly.
    5. ??
    6. BIRDIES!

  10. Re:Summary by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    1. 1% of dinos could fly. 2. Asteroid hit earth 3. 99.9% of dinos died 4. 100% of all dinos can fly. 5. ?? 6. BIRDIES!

    We luvz us our Birdies, but not all of them fly.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  11. Re:Why birds and not dinos? by turbidostato · · Score: 1

    "Why did the birds survive and not the dinosaurs?"

    You know, it was a big meteorite, so when it crashed, it shattered the Earth and dinosaurs' neck broke because of it. Birds, on the other hand, flied into the air when the shattering was coming and thus didn't receive any injury.

  12. Re:Summary by SydShamino · · Score: 1

    1. 1% of dinos could fly.
    2. Asteroid hit earth
    3. 99.9% of dinos died
    4. 100% of all dinos can fly.
    5. A few dinos get fat and heavy, or discover they are more suited to water than air.
    6. 99% of all dinos can fly.
    7. Chickens cannot fly, but product a wide variety of tasty and consumable products, making them easy to farm.
    8. PROFIT!

    --
    It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  13. Re:Summary by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

    You miss out on a large number of relatives in that scenario, komodo dragons, crocodiles etc.

    --
    If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  14. American science by bytesex · · Score: 1

    If something has trouble to be explained - throw in an explosion.

    --
    Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
  15. Re:Why birds and not dinos? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

    I have always wondered why all dinosaurs died out, and not a single species managed to survive. It's odd. They seemingly just all disappeared, while many other reptilians managed to stay. Crocodiles for example are around from before the dinosaurs, they survived competition from dinosaurs, at least one huge asteroid impact, and competition from mammals (so far). So maybe we should look at this differently: birds ARE dinosaurs, and the birds ARE the surviving species of dinosaur.

    So while most species of dinosaur died out, some species (especially the small ones that could fly - an obvious advantage to seek out habitable places, without the need of massive quantities of food) managed to survive and find a new niche, from where they started to spread and evolve in other species as they adapted to new habitats.

    Insects survived, though probably also there many species went extinct.

    Mammals survived, smaller than dinosaurs they can live off scarcer resources. But again I would expect many mammal species went extinct as well after the meteorite hit.

    And of course the same for many, many other classes of animal and plant life.

  16. Re:Why birds and not dinos? by derrickn · · Score: 1

    I would hazard to guess that for every small mammal species there was foraging around, there were at least two small dino species foraging around, too. The small dino species died out, with their big cousins, whilst presumably not requiring any more "scarce resources" than the small mammals. No?