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Posture Affects Standing, and Not Just the Physical Kind (nytimes.com)

Posted by Soulskill on from the you-just-straightened-in-your-chair dept.

An anonymous reader writes: As somebody who sits in front of a computer most of the day, and has for a number of years, this article at the NY Times struck a bit close to home. It compiles a list of the negative consequences of poor posture. There are the obvious ones, like neck and muscle pain, joint problems, digestive issues, and so forth. But there are social problems, too. We're probably all aware that slouching can give a worse first impression than standing straight, but there's also evidence it can influence who a mugger picks to rob, and how you feel. "In a study of 110 students at San Francisco State University, half of whom were told to walk in a slumped position and the other half to skip down a hall, the skippers had a lot more energy throughout the day (abstract)." So take this as your yearly reminder, fellow keyboard-hunchers — sit up straight, move around every so often, and maybe invest in that standing desk.

42 of 77 comments (clear)

  1. Chairs suck. by truck_soccer · · Score: 1

    Chairs are designed for creatures with an anatomy that couldn't possibly resemble anything humanoid. In order to sit comfortably in my chair at work I have to be on the very edge of the seat, with my back at a 45 degree angle toward my desk. If I sit all the way back into the seat, my back will conform the shape of the back rest, which for some reason is the S curve that you see in severe scoliosis cases.

    1. Re: Chairs suck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I should have quit my first day when the Seattle startup I work for showed me my corner, with no desk or chair(!!!), and phone jack for my modem.

    2. Re: Chairs suck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      We had to kill and butcher a temp in order to have lunch.

  2. Standing desk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Tried it for a bit only to find out that I cannot concentrate as well when I am standing. Is it just me?

    1. Re:Standing desk by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 2

      It's not just you, but it is just a subset of the population.
      At my computer I'm sitting, but I stand to go over documents with coworkers. Changing up seems to help.

    2. Re:Standing desk by Legionary13 · · Score: 1

      You might get improved results if you persist: it took me months to get used to standing to work, particularly when sustained concentration was required as in coding. I eventually bought a standing desk for home and (about six months after starting) feel much better for the change. One counter-intuitive suggestion: try standing on a wobble board as you work. The lightest touch of a hand on the desk will soon be enough to stabilise you - there will be a lot going on in your lower body & core but you won’t need to pay any attention to it and more than you need to attend to keeping breathing. As a fellow Slashdot reader you may be interested in the desk as a technical ‘fix’ but I would argue that fundamental changes to the way we inhabit our bodies require more powerful tools. Feldenkrais Method has worked well for me.

    3. Re:Standing desk by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      I dislike standing to work as well. I can think while pacing though, so generally I break up the sitting by taking breaks to walk through the building (we have a massive highbay that takes a good 5 minutes to cross) when I need to think without writing code.

    4. Re:Standing desk by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Tried it for a bit only to find out that I cannot concentrate as well when I am standing. Is it just me?

      It takes a while to get used to. You should get a leaning "chair", so you are not standing unsupported. There are several to chose from. I built my own with some scrap lumber and some spare cushions. Adjust your desk height so your forearms are parallel to the ground, and adjust your monitor so your eye level is about 1/3 down from the top. I stand on these wedge cushions.

      Start with just an hour or two per day, then work your way up. I use my standing desk about four hours per day. Few people stand for the whole day.

    5. Re:Standing desk by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

      I used to work in a cubicle and would often have co-workers make fun of me because I would stand, stretch, and do calisthenics when able {like talking on the phone}.

      This continued for a while until one of my much younger co-workers had a back issues, afterwards a lot of co-workers where doing the same and stopped making fun.

      I still do my standing, stretching, and calisthenics but no one notices because I can close the office door.

    6. Re:Standing desk by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I was not an occifer but I spent a long time at OCS in Quantico. You learn a lot about posture. How you carry yourself is one of the greatest impressions you can make - even if the other person isn't consciously noticing it. You can add to that tone of voice, inflection, facial expressions, quality and fit of clothing, hygiene, and hair styles. They all factor into how people opine about you (even if they shouldn't). This factors into your success and failure - regardless of validity.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  3. Tired of the YOU DIE UNLESS YOU DO THIS news by MatthiasF · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They just recently had a rather large study over 16 years prove sitting has no impact.

    http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/...

    Just getting tired of all the fearmongering. Medical science told everyone fat was evil, so everyone swapped to using sugar instead and started an obesity epidemic. Decades later, studies find that fat was fine and had no ill effects. Eggs, milk, gluten, all the same trends repeating themselves.

    There comes a point when you can't trust any medical study on diets or broad behaviors impacting mortality.

    1. Re:Tired of the YOU DIE UNLESS YOU DO THIS news by avandesande · · Score: 2

      Yes slouch with pride! ;-)

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    2. Re:Tired of the YOU DIE UNLESS YOU DO THIS news by antdude · · Score: 1

      No kidding. If I die, oh well. I care not!

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  4. Wrong conclusion by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

    The study doesn't compare slouching to standing straight - it compares slouching to skipping.

    And I guarantee you a guy skipping down the street is going to draw more attention from muggers and other thugs.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Wrong conclusion by FuegoFuerte · · Score: 1

      "See that guy? He's crazy! Let's go for an easier target." Crazy = unpredictable = bad target. On the other hand, I've been told they probably avoid me because I look like I might rip someone's heart out with my bare hands and eat it, just to see if it tastes like bacon. So skipping is not always necessary to be a bad target.

    2. Re:Wrong conclusion by bws111 · · Score: 1

      The 'skipping' study had nothing to do with how others percieve you. It was a study on how body posture affects low energy levels caused by depression.

  5. Social studies at its best by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

    In a nine sentence abstract the word subjective is used five times, yet the title is "How Body Postures Influence Your Energy Level".

    Science

  6. Wrong Conclusion: Skipping is the Answer by pollarda · · Score: 4, Funny

    If you think standing helps when looking at documents with your co-workers, this study clearly shows that you will gain an additional advantage if you analyze your documents while skipping. You will have a clearer mind and feel much more refreshed after doing so. Additionally, if you do this while analyzing documents with your coworkers, your choice will benefit your coworkers as well. If they don't want to skip with you, they will be "left behind" in the workplace.

    1. Re:Wrong Conclusion: Skipping is the Answer by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Even better is reviewing documents while swimming.

  7. Obligatory Abstruse Goose by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    As somebody who sits in front of a computer most of the day...

    http://abstrusegoose.com/354

    This one was horrifyingly accurate when I first found it.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  8. Re: Republicans also pick... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A mugger potentially puts himself in harms' way.

  9. skip to and from the restroom by sylvandb · · Score: 1

    Or just skip down the hall on the way to and back from the restroom...

    1. Re:skip to and from the restroom by PPH · · Score: 2

      Hence, the origin of "Skip to the loo, my darlin'."

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:skip to and from the restroom by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I'd have laughed my ass off if an employee was skipping down the hallway. I'd have laughed even harder if we had a client in the building. Hell, at one point we had absolutely no pressing work and were going to be doing very little for a few days. We went out and played in the park and the following day we went to a museum. We'd already been paid and there was nothing we could do until [redacted] got off their ass and got the data to us. We were still pretty small then and could get away with it.

      We had D&D nights. We went to the movies together. We went to each other's kid's plays and concerts. We went to weddings, funerals, even to one of those whatever it's called that Jewish girls go through instead of boys things. When we had team changes they'd often break out into groups and go off and do something out of the office - while on the clock even. So long as the work got done it was all good. The doors were open 24/7 if you wanted to work. You could work from home but that was kind of difficult to do back then and later kind of hard as there was a lot of proprietary data on the system.

      If you skipped to the bathroom - you just might get someone to skip along with you. Hell, sometimes we'd have a group of people break out into song. Albeit not when there were clients in the building (that I know of). I kind of miss the place but, well, I'm in Florida and invited half of Slashdot to come to my NYE party so I don't miss it that much.

      These days, the non-parent company has assigned parking, badges, security, a human resources department, time clocks, and a dress code. I am to understand that they still try to keep some of the mentality the same but it's difficult. They don't have things like company picnics but they do have things like team building retreats and shit like that. Of course they've got like 3x the number of people working there now and two of the offices have been closed...

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  10. MAYBE... but standing has it's own problems. by shaitand · · Score: 2

    We focus so much on the negative consequences of sitting around all day because of the general nature of the audience on this site. But standing all day leads to a number of foot and vascular problems. Unlike the problems of sitting, which can be offset by a decent chair, paying attention to posture, and a few minutes of exercise after work some of those foot and vascular problems aren't really curable.

    You pop a vain in your leg because you've been on your feet all day and the only thing they can really do about it is inject saline or something similar causing the vein to collapse and the blood to re-route.

    And as someone who has worked full time on his feet in the past and developed pain in my feet. I assure you, a podiatrist will speak with confidence but the treatment effectiveness is so far from science that it is effectively voodoo. The foot, calf, all the tendons ligaments, and all those very very very many bones involved is extremely complicated. For 45% of people you can solve a lot of the foot problems by stepping on the machine at walmart and getting custom footpads, for maybe 5-10% the complicated extra braces or specialized shoes, etc from a podiatrist will take care of it when that fails (and cost a great deal of money), for the rest the only solution to sit down.

    Trust me, if you haven't spent a few months on your feet for 6+hrs 4-5x a week and don't have arch problems you will after doing so for a few months.

    1. Re:MAYBE... but standing has it's own problems. by unity · · Score: 1

      "Trust me, if you haven't spent a few months on your feet for 6+hrs 4-5x a week and don't have arch problems you will after doing so for a few months."

      I've been working at a standup desk for over a decade now with no problems whatsoever; in fact, it helped fixed up all my poor posture problems from years of sitting at desks. Of course I work standing up mostly barefoot, in flat sandals or flat simple shoes -- no fancy pads or shoes.

    2. Re:MAYBE... but standing has it's own problems. by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I think it also depends on what you stand on. If your working in a warehouse or factory with concrete floors, it can take a serious toll.
      I used to work on a factory floor, part of my work area had a raised wooden floor. After six weeks or so, getting on my feet after sitting or laying felt like I was pushing on a bruise. Stepping from the concrete floor to the raised wooden floor was like walking onto a cloud.

      --
      Cheap storage VM.
    3. Re:MAYBE... but standing has it's own problems. by shaitand · · Score: 1


      Your tips aren't bad ones but the best answer is balance. Do not sit all day, do not stand all day, do not lay in a bed all day. Instead, balance these things out. If you are going to get a standing desk then get a tall stool to go with it and a nice shock absorbing mat to walk on rather than directly on the hard ground. Alternate sitting and standing throughout the day and don't spend hours doing just one or the other. Fix your posture. Spend a short time meditating each day to keep your mind organized and balanced. Learn to breath using your abdominal muscles so that your blood is always heavily oxygenated which increases mental and physical functional across the board.

      I'd also suggest heavy full body exercise either with body weight or free weights such as very heavy squats. Avoid the machines that plague your typical commercial gym these days. They carry those machines because the machines stabilize the weight and thus reduce injuries (and lawsuits) due to improper technique. Do not start heavy and race to high numbers, do lifts, pulls, and presses in a slow and controlled manner with a focus on perfect technique and stabilize the weight yourself as the weight increases muscle imbalances and fine adjustments to technique will become something you do constantly because under heavy weight you'll be able to feel your mistakes. This is what your abdominal, lower back, and other accessory muscles are actually for, stabilizing and controlling loads for the major muscle groups. Do not do isolation exercises like curls unless you are recovering from an injury for the same reasons.

      Using your lower back and abdominal muscles to stabilize heavy weights you are lifting for squats, rows, deadlifts, and overhead presses will develop them in a balanced and functional fashion and eliminate lower back pain. The massive amounts of oxygen you need to circulate around your body in large bursts to do the lifts will increase the capacity of your vascular system and that definitely will head off varicose veins. A short burst of jumping rope or running in place to get your heart rate up before your strength routine will take care of cardio. Lifting heavy weights is also the only thing that has been shown to trigger natural repair of cartilage in the body which means those damaged joints and spines might actually finally be able to heal. Additionally, lifting heavy has also been shown to increase bone density and speed up your metabolism. As an added bonus you will gain huge strength gains, both from learning how to use your muscles and skeleton to most effectively handle loads and work and from increased muscle mass.

      Since it is most effective to keep repetitions low and difficulty high it won't take more than 20-30mins 2-3x a week. Avoid supplements other than vitamins and make sure you eat enough protein (about 0.6g/lb of lean mass).

      That covers the health aspects but there is the cosmetic side many to consider as well. Women who don't want a bulky look don't have to worry, healthy body fat percentages for ladies (about 23%) mean you will always keep that smooth feminine look no matter how strong you get. Bulky girls are taking hormone supplements and cutting their body fat percentages to unhealthy levels. Guys who do want to look muscular, when you are strong you will have that look at healthy body fat levels (12-16%). If you want a six pack you generally have to drop that BF % below 10. Bodybuilders, male and female would drop BF even further and dehydrate themselves as well. Male or Female, you don't have to worry about looking like that no matter how strong you become and what you lift. It isn't something that happens by accident or just from working out.

  11. It also brings monarchy to the US by spiritplumber · · Score: 1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... at least according to the MST3K guys.

    --
    Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
  12. Standing desks... by bcware · · Score: 2

    Standing desks are no better than sitting desks. Maintaining any position for a long period of time is harmful. They key here is movement.

    1. Re:Standing desks... by hey! · · Score: 1

      Standing desks are no better than sitting desks. Maintaining any position for a long period of time is harmful. They key here is movement.

      Except with a standing desk you do move around more than if you are in a chair. You naturally shift your weight and position when you aren't confined to a chair.

      The problem is that is that a standing desk a really tough transition if you're carrying extra weight. I built one for myself (have you seen how much those things cost?) a couple years ago and found I didn't like it. It put way too much stress on my feet and legs, even with anti-fatigue mats and support hose. Then I lost 60 pounds and now I use the standing desk about half the time. Of course it's hard to say how much I benefit from the desk, apart from the other changes I've made (like regular daily exercise); I just like standing some of the time now. There is evidence that long bouts of regular sitting are strongly correlated with increased overall mortality rate, but I don't know whether there's any actual evidence that standing in place is any better. It seems unlikely to hurt, especially if you take regular breaks.

      If a standing desk isn't active enough for you, the next step is a treadmill desk. The research support for the physiological benefits of a treadmill desks is much stronger than the evidence for standing desks, although that's hardly surprising.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re:Standing desks... by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

      with a standing desk you do move around more than if you are in a chair. You naturally shift your weight and position when you aren't confined to a chair.

      True, and this is a particular benefit for anyone with even slight ADHD tendencies. I didn't realize how much I hated prolonged sitting until I got myself a standing desk (in my case, it's a coffee table on top of a desk). Besides just shifting your weight, there are all kinds of motions you can do -- I'm basically kicking my feet around while typing right now. The downside is that I now avoid sitting events such as theatre and movies even more, but OTOH the occasional sitting feels like a proper relief for the feet.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    3. Re:Standing desks... by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I found that when I used a standing desk I tended to lean onto my keyboard rest and it seemed to exacerbate my occasional wrist pain.
      Yeah, your wrists should hover...

      --
      Cheap storage VM.
  13. Standing up straight = military? by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 1

    I've always had decent posture, stood up straight, and colleagues at one past job wondered if I had a military background. Figures. I try to give myself an excuse to stand up and walk around every hour or two. Coffee is helpful. :-)

    Like all things, it's a matter of balance. I'm tall (6'1") and if I didn't have good posture I'd be in trouble.

    I see an epidemic of slouching people with incipient dowager's humps from constantly leaning over their smart phone...

    ...laura

  14. Some comments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    To your attention:
    a. The original paper is from 2012, in a not-so-well-known journal called Biofeedback(TM). I doubt it has a high impact factor, I managed to find none.
    b. I doubt how much you can learn from such artificial movements which involve external interference with the person's natural behavior.
    c. The direction of causality may be easily confused. Does feeling happy make us move more or the other way around?
    d. The methodology of asking people how they feel, after you have made them do something which is culturally associated with some feeling is less than scientific.
    Enjoy your sitting.

  15. Tensing is not the opposite of slouching by thestuckmud · · Score: 2

    I agree that posture has significant effects on well being and how we are perceived, but the images I had as a kid of good posture were misguided. Military attention and finishing school book-balanced-on-your-head stiffness are not good example of ideal posture. They are too tense, stressing shoulders and lower back, among other things.

    Good posture is balanced and flexible. Imaging partially hanging from a string attached to a point straight above the spine on the top of your head, with relaxed (not slouched) shoulders and back. Instead of rigidly holding a position and pivoting the body at one point, allow the hips and back, legs, shoulder, etc to adapt like an inverted pendulum to maintain balance -- not wiggly, just adaptable.

    I hope this doesn't come off as too didactic, but it took me 50 years to begin to learn to move properly and it makes a big difference. At least for me.

  16. Re:Or maybe you shoulda been a JOCK instead of a G by PixelPusher1532 · · Score: 1

    Jury!

    Sorry, they are still out.

  17. I second that, have similar experience. by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    I have a diploma in performing arts which I got in the 90ies. '99 was my fittest year, I had completely compensated the nerd posture problem including ditching my back pain and the need for medical insoles and felt great. I did a career switch into IT, with my posture getting worse again. In 2008 I picked up Tango dancing and improved my posture on the fast track again, with people close to me wondering how strait I stand.

    I can attest: We are cousins of primates - how we stand and walk severely affects how we are percieved and how we can influence people around us. I see this effect in interaction with women, in the workplace and in everyday life. My social standing has notably improved since then and I attest this also to the way I stand, walk and with which posture I face people in public and private settings.

    My 2 cents.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  18. Gold standard for posture upgrade by bdwoolman · · Score: 1

    An actress friend of mind recommended this to me years ago to help me with a back problem. The Alexander Technique provides gently guided body awareness training. Something performers often need to have. Helped me improve my gate after surgery. Very different deal than yoga.

    --
    "No fear. No envy. No meanness." Liam Clancy
  19. Donald Duck by CaTfiSh · · Score: 1
    From the article: "Standing with chest pushed forward and buttocks pushed back (the so-called Donald Duck posture that exaggerates the lumbar curve). "

    Interestingly, I read an article about a photographer who noticed, while taking images of indigenous people, this exact posture. What she also noticed was that there were 80 year old women bending over from the waist with no apparent pain while picking vegetables. This diverged into reviewing old plates in medical textbooks which showed a much greater curvature at the top and bottom of the spine; an "S" shape, as opposed to our "J" shape. She now teaches a method based on her observations.

    The article: http://www.npr.org/sections/go...

    Her website: http://gokhalemethod.com/

    1. Re:Donald Duck by CaTfiSh · · Score: 1

      Oh well, strike that. I started writing from memory and recalled enough to find the article, but upon reading it anew, I was off on the peripheral details. The theory is as stated though.

  20. Old news by Red_Chaos1 · · Score: 1

    That muggers/thieves will pick people who slouch and look down/avoid eye contact, has been reported on before, and It's not false. Such posture/behavior telegraphs that you're a target easy for the picking, not likely to fight back. Walking upright, being willing to make eye contact is something people with at least some sense of self worth, etc. do, and make you a much less attractive target.