2016 Is the Year of Buying CNC Tools Instead of Building Them (hackaday.com)

szczys writes: We have reached a turning point in personal CNC Tools like mills and laser cutters. Up until now, your options were to drop some serious cash (businesses) or spend time to build them yourself (individuals) at moderate expense. But over the last year the number of companies making CNC tools and the software available for them has matured. Anyone looking for an entry level machine in the coming year will find that purchasing equipment has a better time/price value than building yourself. The best part is, these entry level tools have the precision you need if you still want to build your own high-end or extreme-spec machines.

Comments

Hmm

[liqu1d]

I'll buy a cnc then cnc a bigger cnc to then sell the original cnc to get my money back from the cnc.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly the used CNC market isn't that great.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly the used CNC market isn't that great.

It is true. In the current climate it's hard to actually get rid of something. All those so-called buyers just want to see and see. ..I'll get my coat.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this like the "apps!" post?

CNC CNCers CNC CNCs!

Re: Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't a joke, some places used equipment will go for parts or nearly for free because shops need the room and demand is low. Someone with access to a truck and forklift can get full sized machines for under a thousand or for free, because a shop doesn't want to pay to haul something away.

Re:Hmm

[davester666]

breaking the contract? you're supposed to be here all week!

Re: Hmm

[LoRdTAW]

My company sold a pretty nice knee mill for scrap which was only a few hundred. We also scrapped a few hundred pounds of tooling like chucks, vices and other holding tools. Sad day.

Re: Hmm

[Rei]

Seriously? Wow, I should add CNC machines to my bland.is (Icelandic craigslist/ebay) search list. I've always thought it'd be great to own one but the price tag for a new system has always been astronomical.

Re: Hmm

[delt0r]

Prices of even new CNC mills and lathes has recently (last 10 years) come down massively. 20-30k can get a decent small working volume machine new these days. Even the extras, like end mills are way cheaper now. It is already at the point where it can be cheaper to get your own for small volume rather than outsource it to machine shops. Assuming you have the in house expertise.

My problem is space. My last mill and lathe was in the inlaws garage which is now full of junk.

Re: Hmm

[Rei]

There's a big difference betseen $20-30k (which I don't have) and a few hundred dollars + a pickup (which I do have). ;) I don't have personal experience with CNC mills but I am the sort of person who regularly takes up projects building / modifying things (often metal) by hand, and I'm a programmer, so given the two I doubt I'd have trouble learning.

Re: Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

That is brand new. So if they can replace the old with something so cheap, it follows the second hand items also get much cheaper. But they typically more work to keep going and to be accurate (if your taking +- 0.01mm). And space is the hard part for most people. The new stuff tends to have a smaller footprint for a given working volume, or can do the work of several machines. But not always.

I am a physics/programmer as well. I got a manual mill and lathe for 2k NZD (about 1200USD) back 10 years ago. I was making armature rockets. Machining is fairly easy to learn, and CNC is even easier IMO. You just have to get use to the fact that once industry get a solution that works, they will stick with it even if there are potentially better ways.

But the main thing is that its quite a lot of fun. Getting out there and bending metal rather than just writing code. But you already know that. The one thing i never did get good at was welding.

delt0r here but /. just won't let me log in.

Re: Hmm

[serviscope_minor]

Seriously? Wow, I should add CNC machines to my bland.is (Icelandic craigslist/ebay) search list. I've always thought it'd be great to own one but the price tag for a new system has always been astronomical.

It probably wasn't CNC and if it was being scrapped it probably wasn't even DRO equipped either. Not to say it wasn't a good, solid machine, but it was probably large, heavy and awkward to use. That said, CNC retrofits are available for old mills, though they're not cheap. Probably worth it if you've got some huge old bridgeport that's stillin good nick.

A company my friend works for has one though. I think it was an old retrofit on an older mill which they got very cheap for some reason I couldn't quite follow. There was this bloke Dave, right, I think and he knew a guy... Trouble with the old ones is the replacement parts are nonexistent and they're rather finicky "software" wise, though I think that's a rather generous term for what goes on inside the old CNCs.

Re: Hmm

[Rei]

I suck at welding too, although I think my 1960s MIG welder is partly to blame. Or at least that's my excuse ;) And I have to admit that I too have some amateur rocket concepts myself that I'm really itching to try, though I need to retire a few existing projects first. I've got one rocket concept that I'm working on simulating in OpenFOAM involving a caseless LOX/aluminum/paraffin/polyurethane rocket that burns itself up in its entirity. First the channels of open-cell polyurethane foam saturated with LOX burn, then paraffin surrounding them (while their honeycomb aluminum substrate provides compression), then melting and atomizing the aluminum into the exhaust stream (where it provides extra heat to the exhaust), with the exhaust expanding via a virtual expansion nozzle (the point of the cfd simulations is to figure out what geometry yields optimal expansion while not complicating manufacture). It'd be really neat to know if it works out in the real world. But I need to finish the artsy gate for my land that I've been working on first at the very least, and probably a few other projects too, I can't keep accumulating them whenever something else jumps into my head ;)

Don't get me wrong, I love coding. But you're absolutely right that there's something particularly special about making something that you can touch and interact with :) And (with the exception of welding well) I usually find that things are easier than they sounded at the outset. For example the other day I was restoring a late 1800s pressure gauge and almost didn't even try to get the dents out of a brass ring because I "don't know how to do bodywork". Turns out that it's no harder than just finding any flat-tipped metal tool, a hard surface, and making a bunch of little taps on the tool with a hammer as you move the tip around - after polish you'd never know it had once been banged up.

Re: Hmm

[KGIII]

This may make you want to hit me. I understand. Let me see if I can type this out properly.

Last spring, I bought an Axiom AutoRoute Pro (8 - I think?) along with the stand and a bunch of stuff to go with it. It's still sitting in its crate with a bunch of boxes of stuff that goes along with it. It comes with a stand, a giant tool box, and a bunch of other stuff.

I understand that there's a kit to do laser cutting and engraving and I think I might have that with it - I've never opened it. I seem to recall that there's an attachment to do 3-D printing with it but I did not buy that. I'm pretty sure that I got the laser cutter and the engraver heads. I think it was from Axiom. I could root through my email and find the order and figure it out. I should be able to access that from here.

*sighs*

No, I've never opened it. I've never taken it out of its crate. No, I'm not even sure why I bought it. Well, no... I know why I bought it. I want to do some engraving in wood with a laser 'cause it looks like fun and I had a project in mind.

It's still sitting in the crate and has boxes piled up around it. I don't know what I spent on it but it wasn't all that bad until I added a bunch of tools to go with it and the laser head. I'm pretty sure that's what I ordered. I either got the laser or I got the 3-D printer kit - I don't think I got both. I'm thinking that I'd have not ordered the 3-D printer because I can't think of anything to make with it.

Yes, yes I do stupid things with a remarkable regularity.

Re: Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

If it fits in a pickup truck, you're not getting it for free and probably not cheap. The whole reason some machines go cheap is they are hard to move, and not worth the cost of paying someone to move them. The emphasis of the other poster should be on the forklift part, or a truck with a serious liftgate. Loading and unloading is the hard part, plus it helps to have some experience with rigging. The easier stuff otherwise involves competition from a scrap dealer and used equipment places.

Re: Hmm

[rthille]

I still have to work hard to restrain myself from buying stuff like that. I nearly got myself a $3500 Boxzy.com CNC/3d-printer/laser-engraver, but managed to resist and instead just bought some more cheap electronics project stuff (total ~$100).

Not sure why/what changed in me/life but I don't remember this urge to buy stuff to do projects in the past. In the past I had more time and less money I guess, so I just did the projects I could afford to do, rather than spending small amounts of time and large amounts of money buying supplies/tools for projects I don't really have time for. Well, maybe when I retire in another 20 years...

Re: Hmm

[KGIII]

Yeah, I got extremely lucky and was able to retire at about the age of 50. It's almost as if, "Hey! I couldn't do this when I was a kid! I want this toy, I promise I'll use it!"

They say that when you have the time you don't have the money and when you have the money you don't have the time. Except, well, I have both the time and the money and there doesn't appear to be an adage for that. I'm not sure what happened - I went from being a "maker" (when such wasn't a thing and the resources were far more difficult to come by) to being a passive consumer.

I don't write much software any more. I barely put together my own computers. I haven't soldered anything in years. The only thing I do take the time to do is make stuff from wood and then I go on binges where I'll stop for a year and not even visit my shop. I'll buy stuff and it will stay in crates. I dunno... I've become a passive consumer in so many ways. I've accumulated a lot of tools, so there's that.

I'm slowly working my way back out of what seems to have been a funk. I'm not sure how it happened. I can, quite literally, buy anything I want (within reason - I guess) and so I do. I think that might be part of the problem - I can just buy anything I want. I've made some steps in the right direction, I guess. I've converted to using Linux exclusively (I used to be a Unix user) and I've invested in a girlfriend. Err... Invested... Yes, I've invested time, emotion, and even finances. It does sound cold to put it that way but it's slightly less so than saying 'acquired.'

So, I don't do resolutions but this coming year does look like it might be a bit different. I've got a few other things that will be keeping me occupied and, hopefully, that will be impetus to change and start doing things that I've been meaning to do.

Re: Hmm

[rthille]

If you are looking for something fulfilling to do, you might think about setting your shop up as a maker space to help educate disadvantaged kids...

Re: Hmm

[KGIII]

That sounds great but I live in a town with 0 kids. I don't even live in a town - I'm in an unincorporated township, about 24 miles from a small village. The village does have a school and I provide them with lots of goodies. They're cute little buggers and invite me to their plays, concerts, and games. In return, well, I've outfitted the entire school with iPads, netbooks before that, and will probably do the Macbook next time around. (Apple gives a pretty decent discount - I've interacted with them before, it's a little slow but not bad.)

I do, on the other hand, let people use my shop if they ask - and if they can do so safely. I also let them use my garage and tools so long as they're safe and clean up after themselves. It's a *very* small community. There are six houses with full-time residents. The closest is about a half mile and I've reached an agreement to buy their property. I'm not a recluse so much as I like space to stretch out.

Re: Hmm

[delt0r]

I can a get a 15 ton (metric) truck with crane from anywhere in this city to anywhere else for about $500, including pickup and delivery. The problem is here is not moving it. It is the space on the factory floor.

CNC != high end or extreme spec

[Anonymous Coward]

Thousands and tens are not "extreme". This is not the 80s.

I heard...

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard the demand for CNC tools is increasing in Iran... they lost some equipment recently.

Maybe they'll like American products (or German, BTW).

Oh, yeah...

CNC

[PNutts]

CNC: Computer Numerically Controlled

Re: CNC

[Anonymous Coward]

I though it was CNC & CNC.

Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[fermion]

Not sure when indivuals built CNBC machine. Unlike 3D printers, the milling machine actual can cause. Lot of damage if they break. I also know they have been inexpensive suite case units for at least a decade., say for $2k. They require some skill, so not as popular as the 3D printer.

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[willy_me]

When milling wood or modelling board (plastic composite with the approximate density of wood), CNC machines do not require much power. Potential damage is greatly limited over industrial machines that can mill steel. Home builds are practical and people have been doing it since before 3D printers were popular. A typical use-case for a low powered machine is to mill moulds. These would be used for plastic moulding but you could go another step and cast metals as well. Quality wise, there is really no comparison to most 3D printers. Try browsing the Guerrilla guide to CNC machining, mold making, and resin casting to see what can be done. It is very impressive.

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're saying you don't know of anyone building a CNC milling machine, which could be dangerous if it breaks and that you've seen inexpensive $2k suitcase units for years.

The damage a CNC milling machine can cause should be contained within the machine's work envelope, and it can't be any worse than having a Dremel-style rotary tool's working tool disintegrate under load. I'd rather that happened inside a box, and computer-controlled milling is certainly better than my "artistic" ability. (I wasn't trying to make a *working* gear. I was going more for an inspired-by-Dali display piece. Really.)

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[NormalVisual]

Milling metal, even something soft like aluminum, will still result in razor-sharp chips getting everywhere. Cleaning the machine and your work area is something that will require some care, and heavy gloves because those chips can cut your hands to ribbons if you're not careful.

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[evilad]

They aren't razor sharp.

Source: Have owned a Taig mill for years, have not cut myself, am not particularly careful.

Re: Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aluminum chips are soft (outside of some exotix stuff) and difficult to cut your hand with. Stainless on the other hand will cut you up quickly just brushing it off a hard surface. That is not likely to be an issue in a home shop, especially on a cheap machine that will chatter the tool to pieces on stainless. But in a more equipped shop that does a variety of work, you can never be sure if there are stainless chips mixed in the aluminum ones.

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[mlts]

I wonder about lubrication. A lot of the mills I see need to hose down the piece with water or some other lubricant to keep the metal cool. Is disposing of the water with all the metal bits in it something that is a major concern?

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[davester666]

I would think 'real' CNC's would use some kind of cutting oil that is filtered/recycled in the machine itself. And even if you did just did a once-through setup with water, you'd be an asshole if you just fired it down the drain. At the very least, you'd filter it to capture the metal for recycling [as it's worth money and if you've got a CNC machine, you are likely using it a bunch, so you'll have a bunch of scrap metal].

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[phantomfive]

Wow, 3D printers get all the attention, but cheap CNC machines are probably a bigger deal.

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes they are and have been for about fifteen years now. Removal or molds are superior in price and quality to additive printing methods.

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[thinkwaitfast]

I've been saying this for about 10 years now and have collected a few machines. Just last week I was looking at buying a g0704 due to its large user base. Manual machine is ~1.2k$ new and a conversion (diy) is probably another thousand.

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[Rei]

Most professional 3d printed metal services actually 3d print molds and then do lost wax casting. They also usually do finishing work too (metal or not), such as sandblasting and the like. The resulting quality is generally superb.

Your average home 3d print? Not so much...

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[Rei]

Note that that's "most" but not "all". There are of course laser sintering systems, but prints from them are usually very expensive because they're very expensive. Also laser spraying / thermal spraying systems, but they're new and rare at this point. Another technique sometimes used is printing out a model comprised of metal grains inside a plastic matrix, heating up to sintering temperatures leaving a porous version of the object made of the desired metal, and filling in the pores with a lower melting point metal. Quality usually isn't as good with this technique, but it's cheap. That said, lost wax casting does appear to be the most common that they use. And the results are basically just like any other cast object.

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[serviscope_minor]

Wow, 3D printers get all the attention, but cheap CNC machines are probably a bigger deal.

Um, did we just read the same article? Don't get me wrong, the small CNCs are great and are substantially better than many 3D printers for precision, did you see the amount of work and cost involved in actually getting something out compared to 3Dprinters?

They are substantially harder to use (require precise datuming for every tool change, careful tracking of tools, much more careful cleaning, substantial fiddling with multiple tool paths for good finishes, expensive CAM software and so on and so forth). Also, they are noisy, heavy, and can't run unattended.

If you're making tiny cool gearboxes like that guy, then there's no substitute. And if you're repeatedly moulding the same parts, then milling is generally better (though I've made many duplicates of a part in silicone rubber with a 3D printed mould).

But 3D printers are much easier to use (I've not used a desktop mill, but I've used proper machineshop ones, via the shop techs of course).

Re: Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[Threni]

I've never understood the fascination with 3d printers. Seems like an awfully expensive way to make cheap looking Christmas cracker toys.

Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content?

[Anonymous Coward]

Joe_Dragon's hijacked someone's account.

Time Warp

[jtara]

Where have you been for the past 40 years or so?

OK, let me actually read the article, and see WTF they are talking about vs. the almost certainly misleading post title... I suppose they mean, like "personal CNC"...

Oh, I see. We're talking about "desktop CNC printers" and "hobbyist CNC Mills".

Is it really that hard to come up with a title that expresses that, or at least include it in the body of the post? No? Too much to ask?

The reason I ask is that you've been able to buy CNC tools easily for the past 30-40 years or so, if my memory isn't failing yet. Because I remotely remember writing Z-80 code for the first microprocessor-based CNC controller a long, long time ago! (They were all minicomputer-based before that, and mainframe going even further back. BTW, Allen-Bradley bought the company that I wrote that code for...)

So, yea, the only people buying CNC machines back then were GM, Ford, Chrysler, Boeing, their suppliers, etc. etc. etc.

The truth is, this could have happened in the 80s, if only there had been Harbor Freight! Z-80's were certainly affordable to hobbyists. What didn't exist - I don't think - was decent, affordable, small mills. No reason it couldn't have happened were there a demand.

So, the excitement over 3D printing is past, and now people are realizing that there are CNC mills too?

Did we have to wait for affordable, powerful processors? Funny, that 4mHz Z-80 could run a 5-axis mill, with the position loop(s) running in the Z-80 (not in the specialized hardware used today.)

I wrote the code for those position loops. And counted every machine cycle by hand!

So, yawn. Big breakthrough.

Re:Time Warp

[Anonymous Coward]

Four milli Hertz? Wow, why so slow? Even with relays you could easily get 40, 50 Hz.

Re:Time Warp

[NormalVisual]

What didn't exist - I don't think - was decent, affordable, small mills.

That, and the widespread knowledge of how to run the axes safely (accel/decel curves and whatnot) without tearing things up. I was in a similar situation as you, but with laser marking/engraving machines. The desktop laser machines of today, while useful and wonderful to be able to have on your desktop, still don't really compare even to the industrial machines of 20 years ago. Moving the beam with a cheap pair of steppers is quite different than running it with high-end servos and having to deal with accel/decel periods and delays that have to be accurate to the microsecond.

Re:Time Warp

[Krishnoid]

And counted every machine cycle by hand!

Uphill, both ways, in the snow!

[Sorry, no mod points, so replied instead]

Re:Time Warp

[AJWM]

Yeah, Sherline, for one, has been making desktop CNC mills and lathes for years, and they even sell them together with a computer. Prices in the $2k to $3k range.

I have no idea of the quality, since I don't (yet) own one, but they look pretty good from my research over the last couple of years.

This is a wild guess on my part, but I think the popularity of 3D printers helped bring down the prices on reasonably sized stepper motors, as well as the cost of the electronics and software.

Re:Time Warp

[Anonymous Coward]

Also you can make a decent 3axis mill for ~$1500 or so. I just built an Xcarve and it's awesome. And was cheap. Totally fine for most hobby milling. It all depends on the use case, most people don't have $5000 around for a hobby, but many have $1000 and some time.

Re:Time Warp

[AmiMoJo]

We are still taking thousands of Euros / dollars for these things though, so it's not that big of a deal. The cheap ones suck so much they are useless and not worth it over just using a cheap laser cutting / CNC prototyping service.

Re: Time Warp

[Anonymous Coward]

The lack of such machines in the past wasn't because of computer tech, but because the parts in general have been getting cheaper and easier to get.

I've seen a lot of smaller pro shops finally converting their machines in the last couple years, because kits are getting cheaper and younger machinists are more comfortable using the computers. I've watched the price of kits and components liek steppers and precision screws drop. The internet has made it a lot easier to locate things, get information, and also but stuff from overseas. All of the parts were available for decades, but it took a lot more time and knowledge in the past to track it down. Now it is not even worth building your own drivers and motor controllers, unless you have a particular interest in doing so.

Re:Time Warp

[mlts]

Back in the early 1990s where CNC mills were not cheap, but inexpensive enough for smaller companies to spend money for, there was a time where there were many, many bicycle parts made out of CNC machined aluminum, usually anodized very funky colors as well. This lasted for a few years, but then Shimano and the other brands went to drop-forging, which allowed for more long-wearing components, especially on the drivetrain. This, plus the move to titanium and carbon fiber caused CNC machining to fade away in that industry.

However, with the resurgence of interest, I wouldn't be surprised if people would be interested in custom-building their own mountain bikes with this technology. Their bikes may a couple grams heavier than with CF technology, but the biggest advantage is that parts would be easy to build and replace in a scenario where one can't get a new XTR set shipped to them.

There is also the independent, "prepper" mindset starting to take hold, where having something that one can maintain oneself is a lot better than the latest and greatest gadget which can only be repaired by a specific shop... or the device can't be repaired at all, and has to be tossed. Having a bike where most of the "consumable" parts like the chainrings are easily made on a CNC mill may be what people want, especially if mills become more common in hobbyist installations.

I hope CNC mills become more common. 3D printing is nice, but there are only so many plastic pieces one can make, and the plastic used is quite toxic to the environment. If one can do metal work, it gives a lot more options... if only to allow one to make molds and use those for an injection molding machine for plastic parts that are decently strong.

Re:Time Warp

[dunkelfalke]

Fade away? There is still a shitload of colourful CNC bike parts around and some companies (like Hope Tech) make most of their parts on CNC mills.

Re:Time Warp

[Anonymous Coward]

The machines in the article would struggle on large bike parts. And I wouldn't even attempt steel.

They're more suitable for fine detail work in soft materials. You can probably hit under 100 micron accuracy with them, but they're not robust enough to handle big cuts without a lot of vibration or jamming the motor. The table size is also quite small, and it's hard to clamp and align workpieces when it's tucked inside a box. Tricky to use coolant as well.

If you want to do some serious CNC work, look for a larger hobby or workshop mill (cast iron type) and add a CNC retro fit kit. You need something with a large accessible (slotted) table, and at least a 2hp motor. Can be done for about $1000 if you keep an eye on the secondhand market.

The larger machines are more than capable of producing injection mold tools, but that's another story.

(Injection molding machines are actually pretty cheap at auction, but you need a proper three-phase supply and a bit of space to run one. Compared to 3d printing, an IM machine makes a new part every 20-30 seconds. Oh, and you can often get your plastic granules for free. A "sample" in the plastics industry is a 55lb sack!)

Re:Time Warp

[thinkwaitfast]

I have a sherline 2000, bought it to learn with. It's ok for small stuff but low powered (400w), so don't expect anything fast. I did my own cnc around 95. Stepper motors were cheap then, I don't think 3d printers had much of an affect on pricing; all of the motors that I have are infinite overkill for anything resembling a 3d printer.

Re: Time Warp

[thinkwaitfast]

I follow a number of machinist web`sites and the general consensus is that upgrading a manual mill for doing any real work is a waste of money and it's better t spend $20k on a real machine. In fact I read this by a number of people this morning.

Re:Time Warp

[drinkypoo]

We are still taking thousands of Euros / dollars for these things though, so it's not that big of a deal. The cheap ones suck so much they are useless and not worth it over just using a cheap laser cutting / CNC prototyping service.

You can get a used 2.5D vertical mill for around $1500 (often with some tooling, even) and a CNC kit for around $200-300 including controller and steppers? You can have your own pro-quality CNC mill for under two grand. You just need room for it...

Re:Time Warp

[thegarbz]

So, yawn. Big breakthrough.

The breakthrough hasn't been in the processors. It's been in the ease of creating something cheap that does a good job. You wrote code for position loops? Congrats you've just ruled out 90% of the market because you wrote code yourself.

The rise of the home manufacturer has created a great array of open source and easy to use software. The relative modularity of devices has created an ecosystem of cheap plug and play clones for this stuff.

None of that existed even 5 years ago let alone 40.

You can keep your lawn. I didn't want to get on it anyway.

Re:Time Warp

[Anonymous Coward]

Four milli Hertz? Wow, why so slow?

Realtime debugging.

Re:Time Warp

[jtara]

You wrote code for position loops? Congrats you've just ruled out 90% of the market because you wrote code yourself.

To clarify: I wrote the code for a company. (Omicron Systems.) Allen-Bradly subsequently bought the company, to start their first line of microprocessor-based CNC controllers. (Before that they had used HP minis). That code is many of those 80's and 90's CNC controllers...

Re: Time Warp

[Anonymous Coward]

How is a manual machine not a real machine? Some of those still cose more than $20k without CNC. Yes, generally spending more can get you more, but that is not necessarily better. If you start with a good machine, it can still be a good machine after conversion, and cheaper than buying new. You can ever get someone to install the kits for you with support and warranty. But if your old machine is crap, such that if would still be too sloppy if you replaced the screw, then yeah, you might want a new machine. And I'd your shop needs faster turn around, larger production runs, or to work with exotix materials, you might want a new machine, but probably will be spending more than 20k.

Re: Time Warp

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought 2 sherline 4" rotary tables to make a heavy pan/tilt gimbal a couple of years ago for 375 each and they're great. Well machined with very little play. I don't think youd want to machine jet turbine blades on a sherline, but gun/auto parts? Totally. I'd say it's at least on par with the Bridgeports that are in all the shops I've worked itln.

Re: Time Warp

[Anonymous Coward]

I have trouble finding decent power steppers for a tabletop machine for $100-200 each, let alone a solid ballscrew without the fittings and adapters for a standard machine. Kits that are $200-300 are going to be severely underpowered and/or imprecise, and won't be close to "pro" qualify results on even a new machine.

Getting close

[Anonymous Coward]

I work with CNC & laser cutters and am probably going to go the route of just buying. I spend a lot of time designing and writing the code to generate the objects that I want to make, I just don't want to spend the time to make the machine.

With CNC, eventually I'll look at Tormach or Novakon. A homemade CNC just isn't going to have the rigidity to work well with stainless steel. They're getting quite affordable and Tormach came out with their 440 model which is not desktop but smaller than their other machines for under $10k nicely equipped.

As far as laser cutters go, I have access to a 36*24 cutter for $5/hr at a maker space but eventually want my own. I'm not convinced the Full Spectrum model is going to suit me as the lasers are pretty low in watts (40W) and I'd really want a 90W one. I'd really like to buy an Epilog laser but the ones that I'd want are about $26k, which is pretty expensive for a machine that isn't going to be used to make money. I think that their will be more competition in this area in the future and I'll be able to get what I want and until then, I will use the maker space equipment Oh, that and I need to build a workshop in a house that I don't have yet either but after that...yeah, I will for sure.

Re:Getting close

[NormalVisual]

I think that their will be more competition in this area in the future and I'll be able to get what I want

I hope so, but I don't think there's going to be a quantum leap in performance with the laser machines until you can get a decent beam-steered galvo head + flat field lens for under a few thousand bucks.

Re:Getting close

[Anonymous Coward]

You an buy a laser from Automation Technology Inc, 80-100W, with auto focus and such for 6K. I have their 60W model, which can take an 80W tube (but no larger) without modification. Works fairly flawlessly if you can deal with the slightly crashy software, and the poorly translated manual. But it's not that bad once a file is created to cut. http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/laser-engraving Take a look.

Re:Getting close

[guruevi]

There are some Chinese vendors that you can get a sub-$2k laser cutter from. There is a guy somewhere that sells a board that converts them from their proprietary software to a generic open source friendly printer driver. They aren't the best (I think it's a 40-60W laser) and require some work (cooling system etc) but they are darn cheap and relatively precise for most prototyping.

Renting the things (even 3D printers) is still the best option unless you are a business or want to rent it out, I have access to a number of tools at my job but the amount I actually use them vs other stuff I need to do (most of the time goes in the design, not the printing/cutting). If you don't have access to a maker space, there are sites online that let you find other makers in your area that have (access to) these large tools you need only once every few months.

Re:Getting close

[Rei]

I'd really like to buy an Epilog laser but the ones that I'd want are about $26k, which is pretty expensive for a machine that isn't going to be used to make money

Then make money with it. I recommend 500 yen pieces - they're only 7 grams each (a bit more than a quarter) and worth nearly $5. The right mix of melted down pennies, nickels and copper scrap should give you the right alloy. In Japan you can buy almost anything in vending machines, so just make sure your coins past the electrical conductivity test and you're golden.

Re:Getting close

[Anonymous Coward]

There are some Chinese vendors that you can get a sub-$2k laser cutter from. There is a guy somewhere that sells a board that converts them from their proprietary software to a generic open source friendly printer driver.

Any chance of a link?, as the only ones I've found are conversions to allow them to be driven by Mach3.

(Vested interest: have three cheap Chinese laser engravers at work, all different controllers, all different driving software, all equally quirky - one doesn't like wmf files, another certain jpgs ffs...and whilst I'd be happy to drive them from Mach3, others wouldn't)

Re:Getting close

[Anonymous Coward]

..Works fairly flawlessly if you can deal with the slightly crashy software, and the poorly translated manual. But it's not that bad once a file is created to cut.

Ah, the joy that is Laserwork(s). (Software that is so badly written, it somehow makes Moshidraw look clever..)

Re:Getting close

[Anonymous Coward]

Never thought of counterfeiting :-)

But really, I don't want to bother with making money. I make a good living as a software engineer and will be done with work in two years. I've been involved in the art field for over 30 years (have an M.S. in computer science and art) and I've decided long ago, I don't want to bother with the money side of the art world. I don't want to bother with dealers, galleries, their rules and their ways. I can work for a day and make 2x what I would on a piece of art that who knows how long it would take. I just enjoy the act of creating and want to stay far, far away from marketing, sales, and keeping customers happy. Friend wanted to buy a piece of art from me once for a decent price. I said, "Nope. I won't sell it to you. But here, take it, it's yours."

So would having to deal with money and having a $25k Epilog cutter make my life better than making do with a $8k Chinese machine? Probably not.

Best CNC for 2016

[Anonymous Coward]

This one has all the features I want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mx5tuHgyQk

Gotta pay the bills somehow I guess

[Slugster]

It seems like Hackaday is just throwing a bone to the places offering turnkey mini CNC machinery.

You can still get a bigger machine cheaper by DIY-ing it, but that depends on if you have more time or money really.

That, and the fact that with CNC {metal} machining,,,, it really isn't possible to get a fast & accurate machine by bolting together pieces of t-slot beams. (I don't think I've seen even one you-built-it CNC router that used ballscrews).

Re:Gotta pay the bills somehow I guess

[Anonymous Coward]

Small Injection Molding machines offer much more flexibility,
and are reasonably priced. This one, This one, in particular, should appeal to Hack-a-Day readers.

Re: Gotta pay the bills somehow I guess

[Anonymous Coward]

More then half of the diy machines I know of from previous coworkers and colleagues used ball screws, as they are easy enough to buy off the shelf. A machine rigid enough to cut ferrous metal on the other hand is much rarer, considering most of the machines are light enough to pick up and carry, or have a huge work volume for wood worker.

Re:Gotta pay the bills somehow I guess

[Rei]

Out of curiosity, does anyone ever DIY aluminum extruders? I'm curious as to how hard that is.

Re:Gotta pay the bills somehow I guess

[jgtg32a]

Please tag parent as troll, the link
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/silicone-sex-toy-making-machine.html

Now they tell me!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I just purchased 4x 40watt diodes and crystal to pump (2x) 6@5v 60 psu's and some cooling parts for $500

Need to purchase a cutting nozzle and air pump and my printer should cut 3mm aluminium..

This will sit next to my CNC'd x3 sieg mill.

Total cost of $4000aud to own a cnc mill, large 3D printer and a laser cutter..

Using free software it's way cheaper to build (as long as it's a hobby building stuff) time is free..
All I need now to complete my workshop is a cnc lathe.. Will probably convert a hand drive over to cnc..

I really can't see where I could buy similar equipment for the same price.. All reasonable (Chinese imports) quotes were well beyond 10k

I'm a tinkerer so I'm happy with what I got for my time and $$$

Not an informed article

[Anonymous Coward]

This article doesn't really contain any accurate information. Actually, it appears the author doesn't really know what CNC is about, and confuses 3D engravers with CNC milling tools.

I would point you at some real CNC mills (Sherline is what I use, I fabricate small mechanical parts) but if you need a CNC mill, you already know where to find a machine with either CNC capability, or how to convert a manual one of your choice.

Now, that said, there are a lot of Youtube videos about doing the conversions (making motor mounts, etc). The ostensible point of the original article is you don't have to do that today... you can buy what you need. This has been true for 15 years, and is certainly the way to go. CNC (unless you're making toys) requires precision, and the conversion kits / complete mills with axis motors (or mounts) are far more rigid and a lot less hassle. Spend you time making the parts you need, not fidgeting with your tooling.

Re: Not an informed article

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no clear difference between a "3d engraver" and a cnc mill, just a continuum of price that gets you more rigidity, power, working volume, precision, and speed. I've seen enough old worn bridgeports and cheap tabletop mills that have less precision in aluminum than some new, cheap machines advertised as engravers. They all can cut softer materials, they all use the same principles, and all deal with the same tradeoffs. A full size vertical mill that has too much slop to not cut ferrous material doesn't magically become a different machine, it just falls under a lower quality tier.

Re:Tarot reading

[Anonymous Coward]

Why here?

No, Don't.

[BrendaEM]

We are seeing a massive surge in progress in many computer controlled machines, so why shove it back in the privatization jail?

Re:No, Don't.

[mlts]

What my fear is, is that hobbyist CNC mills wind up like CarveWright machines. You wind up paying a few grand for the machine... but, you have to pay dearly for additional software, DRM-protected templates, special memory cards, special readers, and other proprietary crap.

This may be a working model for IBM mainframes, but as consumers, we need to fight tooth and nail so this doesn't happen in other industries.

Re: No, Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

There are cheap hobby machines comign from China that would not be able to afford to become proprietary. They are cheap entirely because they use a combination of cheap, off the shelf parts and cheap labor. I've seen ones that come with instructions and copies of open source software, with the only exception being a few using pirated copies of proprietary software.

Re: No, Don't.

[Anonymous Coward]

There are cheap hobby machines comign from China that would not be able to afford to become proprietary. They are cheap entirely because they use a combination of cheap, off the shelf parts and cheap labor. I've seen ones that come with instructions and copies of open source software, with the only exception being a few using pirated copies of proprietary software.

True, at present, however they're starting to bundle controllers which do require their own proprietary software running on a PC to control the devices, and this stuff leaves a lot to be desired.

We have a workshop with a large CNC (mainly Italian) driven over RS-232 by proprietary software and a smaller Chinese CNC currently driven via a parallel port from Mach3. The Chinese one is, more or less, a toy, but with care, is capable of doing a good job (the current router head is a bit underpowered for my liking).

Recently, for my sins, I've had more experience of dealing with Laser engravers from China, and having seen a popular laser engraver controller board appear on at least one sub $2K CNC machine, and, having the self same board fitted to one of the laser engravers we have, knowing the limitations of the controller and the driving software I shudder at the thought that my boss sees the damn thing and makes an impulse purchase...

Re:No, Don't.

[thinkwaitfast]

All necessary software runs on linux (real time) and has for over a decade.

http://linuxcnc.org/

Still better to outsource

[petes_PoV]

At 2-3k for a "home" milling maching, it still doesn't make sense to buy your own. Far better to design your project and have a local shop fabricate your pieces for you. Whether that is by plain-old hand crafting or CNC-ing is immaterial, so long as the pieces fit.

The actual number of home projects that the average "maker" will complete in a year makes the cost of buying your own machinery very expensive, when you amortise the cost of the equipment (and the learning failures) across the number of successes. However, since with many "makers" the actual hobby isn't having and using the end product, it's the joy and anticipation of buying new toys and the fun of playing with them - any actual working pieces are simply a side-effect, then more toys is the way to go!

Re: Still better to outsource

[Anonymous Coward]

If you find a real friendly shop that is happy to help someone doi g a hobby, you could save over buyj g your own machine. But without cutting a deal, you could easily looking at $50-100 an hour, with a minimum hour or two for one off parts, for non-cnc stuff. Some shops charge more for cnc stuff, and will charge more setup time on top of that.

And there is still an expensive learning curve when it comes to drawing and tolerancing. I've seen fresh out of school engineers get burned because on projects in school they got feedback from the shop when something looked weird or incomplete, while commercial shops will just turn something out without clarification, or go to extreme tolerances when something was done without a binding quote up front.

Re:Still better to outsource

[wonkey_monkey]

At 2-3k for a "home" milling maching, it still doesn't make sense to buy your own.

That depends how much money a person has.

Re: Still better to outsource

[Anonymous Coward]

What is your time worth? Do you think you can make a $100 CNCed aluminum part in an hour using a desktop CNC? Maybe, but not likely. You'll probably spend 4-5 hours with the metal removal rates these things typically can handle. Tiny CNC mills are a tinkerers excuse to futz around pretending to be a machinist. It is to manufacturing what model railroad enthusiasts are to transportation infrastructure. It takes skill and patience to produce good parts on a small machine and for this reason: I have plenty of respect for the retired elderly gentlemen who have the social security checks to burn by scratching off metal chips like a scraping machine made of PVC.

Serious economics and highly competitive market forces result in a situation where no economic argument exists which can justify these small machines existence other than a desire to get their hands dirty possessed by techno-naturalists.

Re: Still better to outsource

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think you can make a $100 CNCed aluminum part in an hour using a desktop CNC?

Yes? If you can get it for $100, then it was pretty simple of a piece without much setup time. Cutting time of a couple hours doesn't matter much to a hobbyist as you can get other things done at the same time as long as you don't wonder too far, while a shop still charges you for cutting time. And if your hobby time is worth $100 an hour, you can afford a lot more then a bare minimum machine.

But yes, if you are making a single part, then got with a shop. That is assuming you are sure there are not going to be revisions, and no mistakes in your design or documentation.

And you asked what time is worth? That is the exact reason I bought a cheap, under $1k machine for home so I could cut a coulpe aluminum parts a month while being at home instead of using stuff after hours at my job. The slower cutting rate doesn't matter, as either way the time sink is the setting up the program and mounting the work piece, which is also what you pay for from a shop.

Indivduals/businesses

[wonkey_monkey]

Up until now, your options were to drop some serious cash (businesses) or spend time to build them yourself (individuals) at moderate expense.

What's with the stuff in parentheses? Why can't an individual "drop some serious cash"? And why can't a "business" build their own at moderate expense?

Re:Tarot reading

[Anonymous Coward]

Discus comma comma comma? A discus, like in the Olympics? Um, what?