Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

2016 Is the Year of Buying CNC Tools Instead of Building Them (hackaday.com)

Posted by samzenpus on from the do-it-yourself dept.

szczys writes: We have reached a turning point in personal CNC Tools like mills and laser cutters. Up until now, your options were to drop some serious cash (businesses) or spend time to build them yourself (individuals) at moderate expense. But over the last year the number of companies making CNC tools and the software available for them has matured. Anyone looking for an entry level machine in the coming year will find that purchasing equipment has a better time/price value than building yourself. The best part is, these entry level tools have the precision you need if you still want to build your own high-end or extreme-spec machines.

50 of 91 comments (clear)

  1. CNC by PNutts · · Score: 1

    CNC: Computer Numerically Controlled

  2. Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by fermion · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Not sure when indivuals built CNBC machine. Unlike 3D printers, the milling machine actual can cause. Lot of damage if they break. I also know they have been inexpensive suite case units for at least a decade., say for $2k. They require some skill, so not as popular as the 3D printer.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by willy_me · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When milling wood or modelling board (plastic composite with the approximate density of wood), CNC machines do not require much power. Potential damage is greatly limited over industrial machines that can mill steel. Home builds are practical and people have been doing it since before 3D printers were popular. A typical use-case for a low powered machine is to mill moulds. These would be used for plastic moulding but you could go another step and cast metals as well. Quality wise, there is really no comparison to most 3D printers. Try browsing the Guerrilla guide to CNC machining, mold making, and resin casting to see what can be done. It is very impressive.

    2. Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by NormalVisual · · Score: 2

      Milling metal, even something soft like aluminum, will still result in razor-sharp chips getting everywhere. Cleaning the machine and your work area is something that will require some care, and heavy gloves because those chips can cut your hands to ribbons if you're not careful.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    3. Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by evilad · · Score: 1

      They aren't razor sharp.

      Source: Have owned a Taig mill for years, have not cut myself, am not particularly careful.

    4. Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by mlts · · Score: 1

      I wonder about lubrication. A lot of the mills I see need to hose down the piece with water or some other lubricant to keep the metal cool. Is disposing of the water with all the metal bits in it something that is a major concern?

    5. Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by davester666 · · Score: 1

      I would think 'real' CNC's would use some kind of cutting oil that is filtered/recycled in the machine itself. And even if you did just did a once-through setup with water, you'd be an asshole if you just fired it down the drain. At the very least, you'd filter it to capture the metal for recycling [as it's worth money and if you've got a CNC machine, you are likely using it a bunch, so you'll have a bunch of scrap metal].

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    6. Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Wow, 3D printers get all the attention, but cheap CNC machines are probably a bigger deal.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2

      I've been saying this for about 10 years now and have collected a few machines. Just last week I was looking at buying a g0704 due to its large user base. Manual machine is ~1.2k$ new and a conversion (diy) is probably another thousand.

    8. Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by Rei · · Score: 1

      Most professional 3d printed metal services actually 3d print molds and then do lost wax casting. They also usually do finishing work too (metal or not), such as sandblasting and the like. The resulting quality is generally superb.

      Your average home 3d print? Not so much...

      --
      Shiny New Australia.
    9. Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by Rei · · Score: 2

      Note that that's "most" but not "all". There are of course laser sintering systems, but prints from them are usually very expensive because they're very expensive. Also laser spraying / thermal spraying systems, but they're new and rare at this point. Another technique sometimes used is printing out a model comprised of metal grains inside a plastic matrix, heating up to sintering temperatures leaving a porous version of the object made of the desired metal, and filling in the pores with a lower melting point metal. Quality usually isn't as good with this technique, but it's cheap. That said, lost wax casting does appear to be the most common that they use. And the results are basically just like any other cast object.

      --
      Shiny New Australia.
    10. Re:Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Wow, 3D printers get all the attention, but cheap CNC machines are probably a bigger deal.

      Um, did we just read the same article? Don't get me wrong, the small CNCs are great and are substantially better than many 3D printers for precision, did you see the amount of work and cost involved in actually getting something out compared to 3Dprinters?

      They are substantially harder to use (require precise datuming for every tool change, careful tracking of tools, much more careful cleaning, substantial fiddling with multiple tool paths for good finishes, expensive CAM software and so on and so forth). Also, they are noisy, heavy, and can't run unattended.

      If you're making tiny cool gearboxes like that guy, then there's no substitute. And if you're repeatedly moulding the same parts, then milling is generally better (though I've made many duplicates of a part in silicone rubber with a 3D printed mould).

      But 3D printers are much easier to use (I've not used a desktop mill, but I've used proper machineshop ones, via the shop techs of course).

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    11. Re: Aren't we labeling sponsored content? by Threni · · Score: 1

      I've never understood the fascination with 3d printers. Seems like an awfully expensive way to make cheap looking Christmas cracker toys.

  3. Time Warp by jtara · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Where have you been for the past 40 years or so?

    OK, let me actually read the article, and see WTF they are talking about vs. the almost certainly misleading post title... I suppose they mean, like "personal CNC"...

    Oh, I see. We're talking about "desktop CNC printers" and "hobbyist CNC Mills".

    Is it really that hard to come up with a title that expresses that, or at least include it in the body of the post? No? Too much to ask?

    The reason I ask is that you've been able to buy CNC tools easily for the past 30-40 years or so, if my memory isn't failing yet. Because I remotely remember writing Z-80 code for the first microprocessor-based CNC controller a long, long time ago! (They were all minicomputer-based before that, and mainframe going even further back. BTW, Allen-Bradley bought the company that I wrote that code for...)

    So, yea, the only people buying CNC machines back then were GM, Ford, Chrysler, Boeing, their suppliers, etc. etc. etc.

    The truth is, this could have happened in the 80s, if only there had been Harbor Freight! Z-80's were certainly affordable to hobbyists. What didn't exist - I don't think - was decent, affordable, small mills. No reason it couldn't have happened were there a demand.

    So, the excitement over 3D printing is past, and now people are realizing that there are CNC mills too?

    Did we have to wait for affordable, powerful processors? Funny, that 4mHz Z-80 could run a 5-axis mill, with the position loop(s) running in the Z-80 (not in the specialized hardware used today.)

    I wrote the code for those position loops. And counted every machine cycle by hand!

    So, yawn. Big breakthrough.

    1. Re:Time Warp by NormalVisual · · Score: 2

      What didn't exist - I don't think - was decent, affordable, small mills.

      That, and the widespread knowledge of how to run the axes safely (accel/decel curves and whatnot) without tearing things up. I was in a similar situation as you, but with laser marking/engraving machines. The desktop laser machines of today, while useful and wonderful to be able to have on your desktop, still don't really compare even to the industrial machines of 20 years ago. Moving the beam with a cheap pair of steppers is quite different than running it with high-end servos and having to deal with accel/decel periods and delays that have to be accurate to the microsecond.

      --
      Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    2. Re:Time Warp by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      And counted every machine cycle by hand!

      Uphill, both ways, in the snow!

      [Sorry, no mod points, so replied instead]

    3. Re:Time Warp by AJWM · · Score: 1

      Yeah, Sherline, for one, has been making desktop CNC mills and lathes for years, and they even sell them together with a computer. Prices in the $2k to $3k range.

      I have no idea of the quality, since I don't (yet) own one, but they look pretty good from my research over the last couple of years.

      This is a wild guess on my part, but I think the popularity of 3D printers helped bring down the prices on reasonably sized stepper motors, as well as the cost of the electronics and software.

      --
      -- Alastair
    4. Re:Time Warp by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      We are still taking thousands of Euros / dollars for these things though, so it's not that big of a deal. The cheap ones suck so much they are useless and not worth it over just using a cheap laser cutting / CNC prototyping service.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:Time Warp by mlts · · Score: 1

      Back in the early 1990s where CNC mills were not cheap, but inexpensive enough for smaller companies to spend money for, there was a time where there were many, many bicycle parts made out of CNC machined aluminum, usually anodized very funky colors as well. This lasted for a few years, but then Shimano and the other brands went to drop-forging, which allowed for more long-wearing components, especially on the drivetrain. This, plus the move to titanium and carbon fiber caused CNC machining to fade away in that industry.

      However, with the resurgence of interest, I wouldn't be surprised if people would be interested in custom-building their own mountain bikes with this technology. Their bikes may a couple grams heavier than with CF technology, but the biggest advantage is that parts would be easy to build and replace in a scenario where one can't get a new XTR set shipped to them.

      There is also the independent, "prepper" mindset starting to take hold, where having something that one can maintain oneself is a lot better than the latest and greatest gadget which can only be repaired by a specific shop... or the device can't be repaired at all, and has to be tossed. Having a bike where most of the "consumable" parts like the chainrings are easily made on a CNC mill may be what people want, especially if mills become more common in hobbyist installations.

      I hope CNC mills become more common. 3D printing is nice, but there are only so many plastic pieces one can make, and the plastic used is quite toxic to the environment. If one can do metal work, it gives a lot more options... if only to allow one to make molds and use those for an injection molding machine for plastic parts that are decently strong.

    6. Re:Time Warp by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Fade away? There is still a shitload of colourful CNC bike parts around and some companies (like Hope Tech) make most of their parts on CNC mills.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    7. Re:Time Warp by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      I have a sherline 2000, bought it to learn with. It's ok for small stuff but low powered (400w), so don't expect anything fast. I did my own cnc around 95. Stepper motors were cheap then, I don't think 3d printers had much of an affect on pricing; all of the motors that I have are infinite overkill for anything resembling a 3d printer.

    8. Re: Time Warp by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      I follow a number of machinist web`sites and the general consensus is that upgrading a manual mill for doing any real work is a waste of money and it's better t spend $20k on a real machine. In fact I read this by a number of people this morning.

    9. Re:Time Warp by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      We are still taking thousands of Euros / dollars for these things though, so it's not that big of a deal. The cheap ones suck so much they are useless and not worth it over just using a cheap laser cutting / CNC prototyping service.

      You can get a used 2.5D vertical mill for around $1500 (often with some tooling, even) and a CNC kit for around $200-300 including controller and steppers? You can have your own pro-quality CNC mill for under two grand. You just need room for it...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:Time Warp by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      So, yawn. Big breakthrough.

      The breakthrough hasn't been in the processors. It's been in the ease of creating something cheap that does a good job. You wrote code for position loops? Congrats you've just ruled out 90% of the market because you wrote code yourself.

      The rise of the home manufacturer has created a great array of open source and easy to use software. The relative modularity of devices has created an ecosystem of cheap plug and play clones for this stuff.

      None of that existed even 5 years ago let alone 40.

      You can keep your lawn. I didn't want to get on it anyway.

    11. Re:Time Warp by jtara · · Score: 1

      You wrote code for position loops? Congrats you've just ruled out 90% of the market because you wrote code yourself.

      To clarify: I wrote the code for a company. (Omicron Systems.) Allen-Bradly subsequently bought the company, to start their first line of microprocessor-based CNC controllers. (Before that they had used HP minis). That code is many of those 80's and 90's CNC controllers...

  4. Gotta pay the bills somehow I guess by Slugster · · Score: 1

    It seems like Hackaday is just throwing a bone to the places offering turnkey mini CNC machinery.

    You can still get a bigger machine cheaper by DIY-ing it, but that depends on if you have more time or money really.

    That, and the fact that with CNC {metal} machining,,,, it really isn't possible to get a fast & accurate machine by bolting together pieces of t-slot beams. (I don't think I've seen even one you-built-it CNC router that used ballscrews).

    1. Re:Gotta pay the bills somehow I guess by Rei · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity, does anyone ever DIY aluminum extruders? I'm curious as to how hard that is.

      --
      Shiny New Australia.
    2. Re:Gotta pay the bills somehow I guess by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      Please tag parent as troll, the link
      http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/silicone-sex-toy-making-machine.html

  5. Re:Getting close by NormalVisual · · Score: 1

    I think that their will be more competition in this area in the future and I'll be able to get what I want

    I hope so, but I don't think there's going to be a quantum leap in performance with the laser machines until you can get a decent beam-steered galvo head + flat field lens for under a few thousand bucks.

    --
    Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
  6. Re:Getting close by guruevi · · Score: 1

    There are some Chinese vendors that you can get a sub-$2k laser cutter from. There is a guy somewhere that sells a board that converts them from their proprietary software to a generic open source friendly printer driver. They aren't the best (I think it's a 40-60W laser) and require some work (cooling system etc) but they are darn cheap and relatively precise for most prototyping.

    Renting the things (even 3D printers) is still the best option unless you are a business or want to rent it out, I have access to a number of tools at my job but the amount I actually use them vs other stuff I need to do (most of the time goes in the design, not the printing/cutting). If you don't have access to a maker space, there are sites online that let you find other makers in your area that have (access to) these large tools you need only once every few months.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  7. Re:Hmm by davester666 · · Score: 1

    breaking the contract? you're supposed to be here all week!

    --
    Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  8. No, Don't. by BrendaEM · · Score: 1

    We are seeing a massive surge in progress in many computer controlled machines, so why shove it back in the privatization jail?

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
    1. Re:No, Don't. by mlts · · Score: 1

      What my fear is, is that hobbyist CNC mills wind up like CarveWright machines. You wind up paying a few grand for the machine... but, you have to pay dearly for additional software, DRM-protected templates, special memory cards, special readers, and other proprietary crap.

      This may be a working model for IBM mainframes, but as consumers, we need to fight tooth and nail so this doesn't happen in other industries.

    2. Re:No, Don't. by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1
      All necessary software runs on linux (real time) and has for over a decade.

      http://linuxcnc.org/

  9. Re: Hmm by LoRdTAW · · Score: 1

    My company sold a pretty nice knee mill for scrap which was only a few hundred. We also scrapped a few hundred pounds of tooling like chucks, vices and other holding tools. Sad day.

  10. Re: Hmm by Rei · · Score: 1

    Seriously? Wow, I should add CNC machines to my bland.is (Icelandic craigslist/ebay) search list. I've always thought it'd be great to own one but the price tag for a new system has always been astronomical.

    --
    Shiny New Australia.
  11. Re:Getting close by Rei · · Score: 1

    I'd really like to buy an Epilog laser but the ones that I'd want are about $26k, which is pretty expensive for a machine that isn't going to be used to make money

    Then make money with it. I recommend 500 yen pieces - they're only 7 grams each (a bit more than a quarter) and worth nearly $5. The right mix of melted down pennies, nickels and copper scrap should give you the right alloy. In Japan you can buy almost anything in vending machines, so just make sure your coins past the electrical conductivity test and you're golden.

    --
    Shiny New Australia.
  12. Still better to outsource by petes_PoV · · Score: 2
    At 2-3k for a "home" milling maching, it still doesn't make sense to buy your own. Far better to design your project and have a local shop fabricate your pieces for you. Whether that is by plain-old hand crafting or CNC-ing is immaterial, so long as the pieces fit.

    The actual number of home projects that the average "maker" will complete in a year makes the cost of buying your own machinery very expensive, when you amortise the cost of the equipment (and the learning failures) across the number of successes. However, since with many "makers" the actual hobby isn't having and using the end product, it's the joy and anticipation of buying new toys and the fun of playing with them - any actual working pieces are simply a side-effect, then more toys is the way to go!

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:Still better to outsource by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      At 2-3k for a "home" milling maching, it still doesn't make sense to buy your own.

      That depends how much money a person has.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  13. Indivduals/businesses by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    Up until now, your options were to drop some serious cash (businesses) or spend time to build them yourself (individuals) at moderate expense.

    What's with the stuff in parentheses? Why can't an individual "drop some serious cash"? And why can't a "business" build their own at moderate expense?

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  14. Re: Hmm by delt0r · · Score: 2

    Prices of even new CNC mills and lathes has recently (last 10 years) come down massively. 20-30k can get a decent small working volume machine new these days. Even the extras, like end mills are way cheaper now. It is already at the point where it can be cheaper to get your own for small volume rather than outsource it to machine shops. Assuming you have the in house expertise.

    My problem is space. My last mill and lathe was in the inlaws garage which is now full of junk.

    --
    If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
  15. Re: Hmm by Rei · · Score: 1

    There's a big difference betseen $20-30k (which I don't have) and a few hundred dollars + a pickup (which I do have). ;) I don't have personal experience with CNC mills but I am the sort of person who regularly takes up projects building / modifying things (often metal) by hand, and I'm a programmer, so given the two I doubt I'd have trouble learning.

    --
    Shiny New Australia.
  16. Re: Hmm by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

    Seriously? Wow, I should add CNC machines to my bland.is (Icelandic craigslist/ebay) search list. I've always thought it'd be great to own one but the price tag for a new system has always been astronomical.

    It probably wasn't CNC and if it was being scrapped it probably wasn't even DRO equipped either. Not to say it wasn't a good, solid machine, but it was probably large, heavy and awkward to use. That said, CNC retrofits are available for old mills, though they're not cheap. Probably worth it if you've got some huge old bridgeport that's stillin good nick.

    A company my friend works for has one though. I think it was an old retrofit on an older mill which they got very cheap for some reason I couldn't quite follow. There was this bloke Dave, right, I think and he knew a guy... Trouble with the old ones is the replacement parts are nonexistent and they're rather finicky "software" wise, though I think that's a rather generous term for what goes on inside the old CNCs.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  17. Re: Hmm by Rei · · Score: 2

    I suck at welding too, although I think my 1960s MIG welder is partly to blame. Or at least that's my excuse ;) And I have to admit that I too have some amateur rocket concepts myself that I'm really itching to try, though I need to retire a few existing projects first. I've got one rocket concept that I'm working on simulating in OpenFOAM involving a caseless LOX/aluminum/paraffin/polyurethane rocket that burns itself up in its entirity. First the channels of open-cell polyurethane foam saturated with LOX burn, then paraffin surrounding them (while their honeycomb aluminum substrate provides compression), then melting and atomizing the aluminum into the exhaust stream (where it provides extra heat to the exhaust), with the exhaust expanding via a virtual expansion nozzle (the point of the cfd simulations is to figure out what geometry yields optimal expansion while not complicating manufacture). It'd be really neat to know if it works out in the real world. But I need to finish the artsy gate for my land that I've been working on first at the very least, and probably a few other projects too, I can't keep accumulating them whenever something else jumps into my head ;)

    Don't get me wrong, I love coding. But you're absolutely right that there's something particularly special about making something that you can touch and interact with :) And (with the exception of welding well) I usually find that things are easier than they sounded at the outset. For example the other day I was restoring a late 1800s pressure gauge and almost didn't even try to get the dents out of a brass ring because I "don't know how to do bodywork". Turns out that it's no harder than just finding any flat-tipped metal tool, a hard surface, and making a bunch of little taps on the tool with a hammer as you move the tip around - after polish you'd never know it had once been banged up.

    --
    Shiny New Australia.
  18. Re: Hmm by KGIII · · Score: 1

    This may make you want to hit me. I understand. Let me see if I can type this out properly.

    Last spring, I bought an Axiom AutoRoute Pro (8 - I think?) along with the stand and a bunch of stuff to go with it. It's still sitting in its crate with a bunch of boxes of stuff that goes along with it. It comes with a stand, a giant tool box, and a bunch of other stuff.

    I understand that there's a kit to do laser cutting and engraving and I think I might have that with it - I've never opened it. I seem to recall that there's an attachment to do 3-D printing with it but I did not buy that. I'm pretty sure that I got the laser cutter and the engraver heads. I think it was from Axiom. I could root through my email and find the order and figure it out. I should be able to access that from here.

    *sighs*

    No, I've never opened it. I've never taken it out of its crate. No, I'm not even sure why I bought it. Well, no... I know why I bought it. I want to do some engraving in wood with a laser 'cause it looks like fun and I had a project in mind.

    It's still sitting in the crate and has boxes piled up around it. I don't know what I spent on it but it wasn't all that bad until I added a bunch of tools to go with it and the laser head. I'm pretty sure that's what I ordered. I either got the laser or I got the 3-D printer kit - I don't think I got both. I'm thinking that I'd have not ordered the 3-D printer because I can't think of anything to make with it.

    Yes, yes I do stupid things with a remarkable regularity.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  19. Re: Hmm by rthille · · Score: 1

    I still have to work hard to restrain myself from buying stuff like that. I nearly got myself a $3500 Boxzy.com CNC/3d-printer/laser-engraver, but managed to resist and instead just bought some more cheap electronics project stuff (total ~$100).

    Not sure why/what changed in me/life but I don't remember this urge to buy stuff to do projects in the past. In the past I had more time and less money I guess, so I just did the projects I could afford to do, rather than spending small amounts of time and large amounts of money buying supplies/tools for projects I don't really have time for. Well, maybe when I retire in another 20 years...

    --
    Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
  20. Re: Hmm by KGIII · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I got extremely lucky and was able to retire at about the age of 50. It's almost as if, "Hey! I couldn't do this when I was a kid! I want this toy, I promise I'll use it!"

    They say that when you have the time you don't have the money and when you have the money you don't have the time. Except, well, I have both the time and the money and there doesn't appear to be an adage for that. I'm not sure what happened - I went from being a "maker" (when such wasn't a thing and the resources were far more difficult to come by) to being a passive consumer.

    I don't write much software any more. I barely put together my own computers. I haven't soldered anything in years. The only thing I do take the time to do is make stuff from wood and then I go on binges where I'll stop for a year and not even visit my shop. I'll buy stuff and it will stay in crates. I dunno... I've become a passive consumer in so many ways. I've accumulated a lot of tools, so there's that.

    I'm slowly working my way back out of what seems to have been a funk. I'm not sure how it happened. I can, quite literally, buy anything I want (within reason - I guess) and so I do. I think that might be part of the problem - I can just buy anything I want. I've made some steps in the right direction, I guess. I've converted to using Linux exclusively (I used to be a Unix user) and I've invested in a girlfriend. Err... Invested... Yes, I've invested time, emotion, and even finances. It does sound cold to put it that way but it's slightly less so than saying 'acquired.'

    So, I don't do resolutions but this coming year does look like it might be a bit different. I've got a few other things that will be keeping me occupied and, hopefully, that will be impetus to change and start doing things that I've been meaning to do.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  21. Re: Hmm by rthille · · Score: 1

    If you are looking for something fulfilling to do, you might think about setting your shop up as a maker space to help educate disadvantaged kids...

    --
    Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
  22. Re: Hmm by KGIII · · Score: 1

    That sounds great but I live in a town with 0 kids. I don't even live in a town - I'm in an unincorporated township, about 24 miles from a small village. The village does have a school and I provide them with lots of goodies. They're cute little buggers and invite me to their plays, concerts, and games. In return, well, I've outfitted the entire school with iPads, netbooks before that, and will probably do the Macbook next time around. (Apple gives a pretty decent discount - I've interacted with them before, it's a little slow but not bad.)

    I do, on the other hand, let people use my shop if they ask - and if they can do so safely. I also let them use my garage and tools so long as they're safe and clean up after themselves. It's a *very* small community. There are six houses with full-time residents. The closest is about a half mile and I've reached an agreement to buy their property. I'm not a recluse so much as I like space to stretch out.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  23. Re: Hmm by delt0r · · Score: 1

    I can a get a 15 ton (metric) truck with crane from anywhere in this city to anywhere else for about $500, including pickup and delivery. The problem is here is not moving it. It is the space on the factory floor.

    --
    If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?