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The Mystery of the Naked Black Hole (sciencemag.org)

sciencehabit writes: Most, if not all, galaxies have supermassive black holes at their centers surrounded by dense clouds of stars. Now, researchers have found one that seems to have lost almost its entire entourage. The team, which reported its find at the annual meeting of the American Astronomical Society, says it doesn't know what stripped the stars away. But it has put forward a tantalizing possibility: The object could be an extremely rare medium-sized black hole, which theorists have predicted but observers have never seen.

53 of 81 comments (clear)

  1. FTFY by bondsbw · · Score: 3, Funny

    The object could be a black hole, which theorists have predicted but observers have never seen.

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    1. Re:FTFY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well they went IN and found endless bookcases

      So there is a possibility that the phenomenon we know of as black holes are actually IKEA

    2. Re:FTFY by Pausanias · · Score: 1

      Observers have recorded beyond doubt that there are regions of space where vast amounts of matter are packed into a small volume, achieving a density which no other theory than a black hole could explain. That's as good as seeing it.

    3. Re:FTFY by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Observers have recorded beyond doubt that there are regions of space where vast amounts of matter are packed into a small volume, achieving a density which no other theory than a black hole could explain. That's as good as seeing it.

      From most of what I've read, observers have recorded beyond doubt that there are regions of space that show effects (such as high amounts of acceleration) that no other accepted theory than a black hole could explain.

    4. Re:FTFY by mikael · · Score: 1

      Those observers haven't seen the way some of these low-budget house moving companies pack stuff up.

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    5. Re:FTFY by justthinkit · · Score: 1

      Also recorded is a spot in the center of the Milky Way galaxy where stars orbit at millions of miles per hour. It is a simple matter of mechanics to calculate how big the center something must be to cause stars to travel at such high rates of speed. Yet it is not emitting light as a conventional star would. Large, black and acting as we have predicrted. Q.E.D.

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  2. Isn't it obvious? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2, Funny

    The black hole lost its entire entourage because it ran out of money. All that white dust for non-stop parties don't come cheap.

    1. Re:Isn't it obvious? by TWX · · Score: 1

      So it's like Vanilla Ice?

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    2. Re:Isn't it obvious? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      More like Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds (LSD).

  3. Wow ... by gstoddart · · Score: 2

    Man, that title sounds like a cross between a Nancy Drew book and some really bad porn.

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    1. Re:Wow ... by TWX · · Score: 1

      With only one Nancy Drew, but two Hardy Boys plus Drew's ostensible boyfriend Ned Nickerson, even without the title you're already a good part of the way there...

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    2. Re:Wow ... by CCarrot · · Score: 1

      Man, that title sounds like a cross between a Nancy Drew book and some really bad porn.

      I know, right??

      There's no way that one wasn't deliberate. Guess it's effective as click-bait, though, 'cause here we are...

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    3. Re:Wow ... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I was disappointed with Naked Lunch, so I didn't get my hopes too high this time.

  4. Re:Not an astronomer, obviously by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 4, Informative

    How do we know the black hole itself didn't strip the stars away? That's kinda what they do, isn't it?

    Not really, or at least not anymore than stripping the planets in the solar system away is "kinda what" the sun does. Contrary to the popular image, black holes aren't like giant vacuum cleaners that suck stuff in. Most of them tend to have lots of things in stable orbits around them, as stars have planets, and planets have moons. The only stuff that tends to fall in is stuff that gets directed towards them. A giant black hole at the center of a galaxy would only tend to consume stars which were "thrown" toward it, usually by unstable orbital dynamics created by encounters with other stars.

  5. confusing title by ooloorie · · Score: 5, Informative

    A "naked singularity" is usually what people call a black hole without an event horizon, an object that's pretty important in theoretical physics. Calling something a "naked black hole" is kind of confusing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    1. Re: confusing title by ModernGeek · · Score: 1

      That's why a good editor would say:

      A naked singularity, or a black hole without surrounding mass, was...

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    2. Re:confusing title by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      You totally missed the person's point. It's not about using the word "black hole" when they should have used the term "singularity" (note: black hole and singularity are not synonyms). It's that a "naked singularity" is a very specific term, and it doesn't mean "a black hole not surrounded by stars" - it means a black hole without an event horizon. This is an important concept in physics because there's a number of situations that seem like they should be able to produce one (such as strongly rotating black holes), but if you had one, relativity would break down near it. The event horizon in a black hole "protects" our universe from the effects of any weirdness inside the hole (such as a singularity, if they actually do exist), but with a naked singularity you have no such "protection". The concept exposes an area of weakness in our current understanding of physics.

      Calling a black hole without stars a "naked black hole" would be like calling a jacket made out of a very transparent plastic an "invisibility cloak". It's using words that can be seen to make sense (you can't see it, so it's an invisibility cloak!), but it gives readers the totally wrong impression of what is being discussed.

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    3. Re: confusing title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      A naked singularity, or a black hole without surrounding mass, was...

      A "black hole without surrounding mass" is not a "naked singularity". A "naked singularity" is a "black hole without an event horizon". A "naked black hole" is not a technical term, but a physicist would assume that it is a colloquial way of referring to a "naked singularity". The term "naked" never appears in the scientific paper; it's something the journalist made up, and the journalist apparently wasn't aware of the physical use of the term "naked" in relation to "black holes", resulting in a rather confusing title for his article.

    4. Re: confusing title by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      No, a good editor isn't going to put such rubbish into a headline.

      This was the headline in both TFS, and TFA.

      If every headline (by which we mean the brief title at the beginning of a story (by which we mean an article or essay)) is going to provide the reader (by which we mean the intended audience), with a fully expanded (by which we mean explain in more detail) version of every word used in the headline (see above) to convey more information (by which we mean clarify) ... then not a single article would ever get finished.

      You could put that in a paragraph, but if people started putting that shit into headlines it would be stupid and useless.

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    5. Re:confusing title by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You totally missed the person's point.

      No, I didn't miss it, it's a stupid point.

      It's that a "naked singularity" is a very specific term

      Which would have no meaning to the intended audience.

      This is an important concept in physics

      And is, again, too fine of a distinction for the target audience to shove into the headline.

      It's using words that can be seen to make sense (you can't see it, so it's an invisibility cloak!), but it gives readers the totally wrong impression of what is being discussed.

      As opposed to, what, writing a headline which nobody will want to read the article??

      If you publish an academic article on the topic, by all means use as much scientific specificity as you require for a full educated audience who understands the nuances of this. If you publish an internet news story intended for laypeople to read and go "wow, that's kind of cool", you sure as hell don't start throwing around terms which have such highly specific meaning.

      The people who know these distinctions aren't the ones reading these articles. The ones who don't know these distinctions don't want a bunch of confusing shit thrown at them which makes them think "I don't want to read this crap because I have no idea what the fuck it means, if I wanted to read a science paper on a naked singularity I'd have majored in fucking physics".

      Just who the hell do you think this article was written for? It sure as hell wasn't Stephen Hawking.

      Do you ever in your life need to communicate with people with less than complete knowledge on a specific topic? If you do, do you go straight to being an asshole and talking in highly specific nuanced technical language and piss them off?

      I'm assuming the link to arxiv.org is incorrect, but a headline like "The Origin of Double-Peaked Narrow Lines in Active Galactic Nuclei I: Very Large Array Detections of Dual AGNs and AGN Outflows" would NEVER make a curious layperson read the damned article ... and you can rest assured, the article on sciencemag.org is NOT targeting the people who understand this highly specific and nuanced disctinction.

      Pedantry has its time and place. Appealing to merely curious laypeople isn't one of them.

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    6. Re:confusing title by Rei · · Score: 2

      I'm of the view (that Hawking recently has started promoting) that there's no such thing as either a singularity nor an event horizon, that a black hole is basically just an area of near-frozen time formed during the collapse of the star (everything that falls in basically "freezing" into it relative to an outside observer), and that time basically leaks out as the black hole boils off (and its mass reduces). Aka the collapse is still ongoing and everything is still falling in from our perspective, just incredibly slowly. There's nothing behind some inescapable "wall", certainly no firewall - objects are still emitting photons that will ultimately escape, only after incredible spans of time and so distorted by then as to be unrecognizeable.

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    7. Re:confusing title by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      When you get divorced, are you suddenly always called naked?

      Naked is entirely not the correct word to use, and is even more inappropriate because a naked singularity is something in physics, and has nothing to do with companions of the black hole.

      You totally missed the person's point.

      No, I didn't miss it, it's a stupid point.

      If you didn't miss the point, why are you arguing against something that wasn't said?

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    8. Re: confusing title by vikingpower · · Score: 1

      Kewl sig.

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    9. Re:confusing title by justthinkit · · Score: 1
      And you have it wrong as well when you say:

      ...it means a black hole without an event horizon.

      Quoting from wiki:
      In general relativity, a naked singularity is a gravitational singularity without an event horizon.

      Notice there is no linking of "black hole" with "naked singularity". Nor can there be, as one has to have an event horizon, while the other has to not have an event horizon.

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    10. Re:confusing title by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I always suspected that the concept of a singularity was a psychological crutch that made the mathematics easier to visualize for us mere mortals; anything on the other side of an event horizon is undefined, and anything real becoming undefined is psychologically difficult.

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    11. Re:confusing title by painandgreed · · Score: 2

      I always suspected that the concept of a singularity was a psychological crutch that made the mathematics easier to visualize for us mere mortals; anything on the other side of an event horizon is undefined, and anything real becoming undefined is psychologically difficult.

      It probably gets much more complicated that that. Stars collapse and you've got a neutron star. Eventually, the pressure at the center of the neutron star will equal the energy needed to break down the neutrons into a quark-gluon plasma. Now you've got a question of the transparency of neutron star matter to quark-gluon plasma as the gravitational forces at the center will be zero while the space once occupied by the destroyed neutron is filled and the new neutron in the center is destroyed. I bet somebody a lot smarter and with a lot more info than us has said "Hrrm, that's an interesting situation" many decades ago and has done some math and that we are here using the assumption of a singularity at the middle indicates that the math, and all further studies as we get more info, indicate that the neutrons break down faster than the plasma can escape, preventing any sort of steady state and they are left with a quark-gluon plasma so dense that it can't help to continue to compress. With no reasonably known method for keeping everything from compressing to a singularity, that is the assumption.

    12. Re:confusing title by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 1

      Well, it seems you at least got confused by it.
      Because they actually mean the black hole, without stuff floating around it, thus 'naked', not the singularity.

    13. Re:confusing title by Rei · · Score: 1

      I'm not referring to either of these arguments by Hawking, which are both very old. I'm referring to his most recent response to the firewall paradox from several months ago, which has often been snarkily summed up as "there are no black holes", but can more accurately be summed up as "only apparent horizons exist, not true event horizons, and by implication, not singularities either". All infalling matter, even that which built the black hole itself, is held on the apparent horizon, which is a metastable state that slowly decays with time as the black hole boils off. The implication is that there is no singularity because nothing moves past the apparent horizon.

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    14. Re:confusing title by justthinkit · · Score: 1

      Slashdot is alive and well.

      Thanks.

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    15. Re:confusing title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      False vacuum decay scenarios are *really* speculative.

      *If* such a low-temperature state can be achieved, it's not clear that it'd even be physically meaningful other than having an ultra-massive black hole persisting into the indefinite future. That poses completeness problems for relativistic quantum field theories like the Standard Model, and for related problems like black hole complementarity, but it does not pose non-theoretical problems for the universe (i.e., it would expose that our best tools for describing the microscopic behaviour of things in our universe cannot necessarily describe nature; but limiting a theory does not mean destroying the universe it describes any more than limiting Newtonian gravitation destroyed the orbits of Mercury and the other objects in the solar system).

      In some ways ultra-massive black holes are much more benign than lower mass black holes. The curvature at the horizon is much gentler. The curvature inside stays very gentle until nearer the singularity (at which point, however, the divergence is sharper). But since there's a horizon there (ignoring the "apparent" "temporary" "event" distinction as finding the limits of a theory rather than a physically important distinction), it's hard to see how that more-intense compact mass matters to the universe outside the black hole. They also feed less, since things have to actually collide with the event horizon non-tangentially, and with the event horizon radiuses in question that mostly means drifting dust or the CMB photons and background neutrinos -- there's not much mass that will accidentally fall into such a gargantuan black hole, even if it's in a galaxy.

      It's not clear that a false vacuum decay inside an event horizon could propagate outwards beyond the horizon or alternatively inflate the horizon superluminally. So as the nucleus of a false vacuum decay it's still fairly benign as far as ends of the universe go. Most of the universe would simply escape beyond the cosmological horizon from such a thing.

      A false vacuum field that spontaneously decays at some vacuum energy threshould would be more interesting, since it could "pop" everywhere nearly simultaneously as the acceleration of the metric expansion of space increases. There are quintessence theories of dark energy that try to put limits on the speculation of such things. We do not yet have enough information to put useful limits on such speculation, though, but writing down things that make coherent predictions is a start.

      Finally, eternal inflation theories do exist, and there are a variety of trigger mechanisms. There's far more speculation than actual evidence so far, but some theories will be eliminated in due course by data from current and near-future space platforms (e.g. JWST).

  6. Ejected Star by kwiecmmm · · Score: 1

    Occasionally we have seen stars that have been ejected from their galaxies. This can happen during galaxy mergers.

    How do we not know that this is just a massive star that turned into a black hole after it got ejected from its original galaxy? After all massive stars do not last that long because of their size.

    1. Re:Ejected Star by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      How do we not know that this is just a massive star that turned into a black hole after it got ejected from its original galaxy?

      Agreed. If I may add to what you're saying, it's possible an ejected star formed a black hole in a region of space with very little matter around it and then drifted towards the larger black hole; not that the larger black hole stripped matter away from the smaller. There's also plenty of documentation of "rouge" stars drifting in the empty space between galaxies, so it's a reasonable guess that there are also "rouge" black holes too.

      To be fair the article does say, "But perhaps it just started out with fewer stars because it’s a different sort of black hole," which is not mentioned by the Slashdot summary.

      To be clear, I'm not an astronomer, but I do have a comfy armchair.

    2. Re:Ejected Star by Dunavant · · Score: 1

      "rouge" black holes

      Are they rouge because of red-shift? Those rogues.

    3. Re:Ejected Star by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      "rouge" black holes

      Are they rouge because of red-shift? Those rogues.

      Dammit... I deserve that.... I hate making spelling mistakes. My face is rouge now.

    4. Re:Ejected Star by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Now realize that you made that spelling mistake twice in that post.

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    5. Re:Ejected Star by Ranbot · · Score: 1

      Looks like Captain Obvious is trolling Slashdot now

  7. The Mystery of the Naked Black Hole by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    That would make a good porn title.

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  8. Maybe by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

    Maybe the answer is that there weren't many stars there to start out with. Why assume they have been "stripped" away? We barely know anything about black holes. Since they are so far away we can never get close enough to them to study them effectively. We can only guess. This will be a mystery forever.

    1. Re:Maybe by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      The abundance of mass in the center of a galaxy is pretty much the reason that there is a black hole in the center to begin with. It would be odd for all of that mass to have either been hoovered in or stripped away normally. Generally it would be much like a planetary system, most mass makes up the central object, but there's always leftover mass that becomes planets or asteroids, or in the case of this much matter, becomes stars in stable orbit around a central black hole.

      Once in established orbits, there wouldn't be a way for that extra orbiting matter to be removed without some external influence on the system. This usually happens in planetary systems when another star transits (relatively) close to the planetary system and perturbs the orbits of the orbiting matter.

      While that same sort of thing could happen for a central black hole, note that the amount of gravitational attraction that a central black hole would have is significantly higher than any one star would have (since central black holes are always many, many times the mass of any one star), so you'd need something bigger, like a passing or colliding galaxy or dense star cluster to really do much to the mass orbiting the galactic core.

    2. Re:Maybe by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Unless this is a type of black hole that formed a different way from the way we believe black holes to be formed.

  9. Clickbait headline by ian_billyboy_morris · · Score: 2

    I read the headline, and got very excited thinking that someone had found a naked singularity, it should have been re-worded to say, The Mystery of the Black Hole with Middle aged spread or something. Finding a intermediate sized Black hole is interesting, but not quite as exciting as a naked singularity would have been. To be fair to /. Sciencemag came up with the title, not the editors!

  10. Is the Milky Way black hole naked? by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Else we would have been fried by radiation if it wasnt. We know we have a BH or a modest size from fast moving stars near it.

  11. Re:Naked black hole by Lisandro · · Score: 1

    A goatse link! Unexpected.

  12. Re:Not an astronomer, obviously by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

    sould do, yes - then the remaining orrbiting stuff orbits a little faster.

  13. Re:Naked black hole by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    Isn't that a white hole, as hopefully it doesn't suck things in, but ejects things.

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  14. Re:Naked black hole by Fwipp · · Score: 1

    You don't know much about how buttsex works, do you?

  15. Re:Naked black hole by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    I can't say I have ever heard of an anus sucking a dick in on its own.

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  16. From the synopsis by drewsup · · Score: 1

    "The object could be an extremely rare medium-sized black hole",
    I like my black holes extra medium please.....

  17. Medium rare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Extremely rare medium sized black holes... are those a bit like extremely rare medium sized Americans?

  18. Re:Not an astronomer, obviously by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

    Just an idea: After some time of getting "thrown" things at it, its gravital pull sould increase isn't it ?

    Yes, though for a supermassive black hole that is already composed of the masses of many stars, adding another one now and then probably won't increase the gravitational pull suddenly or significantly.

    All the objects previously in stables orbit should start to feel the pull and their previously stable orbit should start to get messed up (exentric orbits, and then maybe plunging orbits ?).

    Yes, when a central mass increases, everything in orbit will "fall toward it" a bit faster. But they will still have their "sideways" orbital velocity, and for a small mass increase (or even a relatively large one), the orbit will just end up going faster and being somewhat smaller.

    In general, the changes in orbits and velocity won't be enough to sustain a "chain reaction" where new stuff is continuously falling in... at least not in a mature star system.

  19. Not true by overlord · · Score: 1

    It is no naked, there are some gas, that why you can see it en X-rays, but there are less stars. So, its not the black hole, its is something unsual in the stellar dynamics in the surroundings.

  20. Re:Naked black hole by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

    You sir, need a wider (errrrr) circle (errrr) of friends. Or casual acquaintances.

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  21. A sense of scale by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
    My first impression on RTFS is that these black holes are quite close together.

    The two black holes, detected by NASAâ(TM)s Chandra X-ray Observatory, are separated by 7000 light-years

    That's right out at the edge of the central bulge (if the galaxy is the same size as the Milky Way.

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