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How To Talk About Mental Illness Online?
An anonymous reader writes: Shortly after the death of Debian founder Ian Murdock, Bruce Perens, who succeeded Murdock as Debian Project Leader in 1996 and was also Murdock's employer for a period of time, claimed very publicly that Murdock died of mental illness, although no evidence has been provided. Without referencing Murdock or Perens, another prominent Debian Developer, Daniel Pocock, has asserted that discussion about who has or had a mental illness is a step too far. To be fair, it sure doesn't sound like Perens was trying to do other than express sympathy in light of a tragic death.
If you want to keep mental illness stigmatized, insist it be kept a secret.
If I die of cancer, I won't have a problem with anybody talking about that. Same with a heart attack. Same with a mental illness.
A brain dysfunction can cause the affected quite a bit of suffering, but sympathy doesn't mean lying. There's no moral failing associated with, say, a neurotransmitter imbalance. These aren't attributed to demons in 2016 - we can see them on PET or fMRI. They're just as valid a medical problem as a broken arm, even if the science of treatment is still in its adolescence.
Now, people who belittle those with mental illness - they should be ostracized. It no better than taunting somebody who gets cancer.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
no. just no. is it so fucking difficulT 2 ACCEPT THAT U CAN BE FAT & HEALTHY, U CISGENDER-ELITIST TRADITIONALIST!!!!!! dONT U SEE HOW OBJECTIFYING. BISEXUAL & DEMIROMANTIC TRANSWOMEN IS PROBLEMATIC?????? currently im a dogkin, so fucking address me as "thon/thon/thons" & not "tho/thong/thors"!!!!!!! im literally crying right. now, u thin-overprivileged basement dweller!!! adDRESS ME AS "ZE/ZIR/ZES"!!!!! () ur perpetUATING NON-ETHNIC SUPERIORITY & THIN ENTITLEMENT, U WHITE WOMYN-ELITIST SUBHUMAN!!!!!!! fucking white womyn-privileged ppl.
Slashdot is full of comedians again!
... it was aired long before this suicide, but provides lots of insight on why the situation is as it is: Episode on Youtube.
Oh right, mental illness contradicts the assumption that humans are informed rational actors on which under-regulated markets are based, so must be shamed or denied.
The first step requires a significant cultural change, which is always difficult. We collectively need to stop considering mental illness as a failure of character, a visitation by some imaginary deity/demon, or any of the other cruelly fallacious delusions out there. Truth is, the mind is extremely complex, very poorly understood, and probably never quite 'right' in the sense we would want it to be. In other words, we are all nucking futs and we had better learn to be more kind to each other.
After that first step, we most definitely should start talking, openly and kindly, about mental health online and in-person and in all social constructs.
Bent, folded, spindled, and mutilated.
If the person suffering is a man, deride and ridicule them. Men with mental illnesses are CREEPY and DANGEROUS. Report them to the police!
If the person suffering is a woman, be supportive even if they are displaying anti-social behavior. Women are BRAVE and VICTIMS. Give them money!
We should always reject and ignore demands/requests for consideration or special treatment of some topics in discussions that take in the general public. Maybe in the workplace it'd be good to avoid some topics, likewise at some special events, but otherwise talk and joke about whatever you want, and if someone must be ostracised it should be those trying to fence topics off rather than those who ignore the fences.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
Ditto, except for the socialism part. I only get free drugs because I have a job and insurance, and I can't say the "support" I get is top notch.
I don't think there is very much wrong with openly talking about it or talking about it after someone's death. That kind of think can help healing and help to fight stigma. You do need consent though, and it is absolutely not acceptable to "out" someone if they don't want it. Let them talk about it themselves.
That is correct, Sir.
It's a very big part of the American culture thing to need to fix everyone else.
This can be a very good thing, and I respect Bruce Perens for "daring" to "go there."
Donald Trump, in his own bombastic style also likes to point out broken things, but
he's less interested in fixing them and more interested in pointing out how he's not
broken. [ob mental illness the Donald is clearly a case of NPD waiting for diagnosis].
Bruce did the right thing because he brought a discussion to the forefront... and sure
enough here we are on Slashdot talking about it.
- Should a mental illness be treated any differently than Lamar Odom's condition... or
Patrick Swayze... or Steve Jobs... or... anyone who has a physical ailment? I don't
think so. They are all people and whether they suffer from a diseased liver, a drug
overdose, or a mental demon, they deserve our [something- is it attention, respect,
space, support, leave-them-alone-ingness, or even just a nod of the head saying
you're not going through this alone].
- Should we NOT discuss it, are we not then perpetuating the de-facto stigma that
mental illness is so bad we can't even talk about it... let alone offer help... or just
say we're there for that person.
I did not know the man himself but I respect greatly the contributions he made to my
daily life. (I use Mint Linux and Ubuntu, both of which are Debian variants).
My thought - there are lots of mentally diseased people running for office right now,
but Ian is no longer here.
May his soul rest in piece... and may a dialogue help others in similar situations.
Thanks, Bruce Perens.
Ehud Gavron
Tucson AZ
I'm mentally ill and don't give a fuck. Thanks to socialism they'll take care of me on their dime and I get all the free meds and support I want.
It's fine to make that decision about *your* mental issue. Making it about someone else's, at least while they're alive, is not okay, because it can cost them their job or career.
Especially if they ever hold or want to hold jobs with security clearances, or certain jobs with a very, very public profile where a company is especially sensitive to the PR around a role. A company is much less likely to hire you for a C-level position, for example, if people are openly discussing your mental issues online.
But also just if you make someone's mental issue come up in the first page of google hits, the chances of them making it past HR in the normal hiring process probably also drops at least 10%.
Worst fail troll of the day.
You are the reason why people don't talk about it. Assuming you have a job, and that is a stretch, I bet you work with mentally ill people and aren't aware of it. They sure as fuck wouldn't tell you.
Given the present state of governmental and (in this case, probably more importantly) commercial and cultural surveillance and the ability to use anything that one ever says or discloses as a weapon against one's future self, it would seem rather ill considered for anyone to be overly open in this regard.
The culture of the internet is broken. Until it is fixed, many people are naturally going to avoid precisely the sort of honest personal discussion that might help them with difficult personal issues. Fixing this broken culture probably requires either assurances of strong anonymity, or assurances that what is disclosed non-anonymously will not be used in negative ways in the future by any other party. Both things seem difficult, the first possibly somewhat less than the second.
But as for now, it is broken. It was once not so. Now it is so. I hope someday it may be not so once again.
... or should see a doctor if none was prescribed, yet.
Saying he died from a mental illness should be taken literally.
People should be aware of that as, all can see, can be fatal.
There are so many people dealing with mental illness that it's ridiculous not to deal with it.
The worst thing you can do is to NOT get treatment or help.
*** Don't be dull.***
Means suicide or drug overdose...
I hope we can come up with a better way to talk about it.
Thinking that we live in a socialist society is a mental illness-- or at least, a delusion.
Keywords: "the species", "this rock", "gravity cage", "get off this rock".
Is that what we call a cover up?
http://archive.is/vBS6N
He was already dead when someone began impersonating him on Twitter, hence no final blog post.
Dear Ignorant Rhetoric,
Yes, all you have to do is live in constant terror of your own mind everyday and not be able to relate to other humans or go outside and you will live the life of riley! Every month you will get a whopping 800 dollars, WOW! You will be on your way to that house in the Bahamas in no time!
Sincerely,
Harsh reality
Subject is forbidden. No can do. Sorry. Better luck next time.
When you say "We collectively need to stop considering mental illness as a failure of character" you are certainly right, but it is a big problem that diagnostics of mental illness are far from being reproducable, objective, reliable, and evidence based.
Nobody doubts that there is such a thing as "mental illness", but there is a wide spectrum from "people whose behaviour is just outside the 90% percentile perceived 'normal'" to the clinically insane that pose an immediate threat to themselves and their surrounding if not sedated/restrained.
Those on the "almost normal" side of the spectrum will continue to be seen as flawed characters, no matter how good willing and educated a public discussion on mental health goes on. That's a reality unchangeable as long as "mental illness" is not an undisputable 0/1 diagnosis.
Bruce doesn't know he died of a mental illness. They weren't close, they weren't even friends. He doesn't know if he was mentally ill. I suspect he was, but who knows. Maybe he was taking some crazy drug. Maybe that was his true personality. The problem with mental illness is that the line isn't straight. If you have cancer, you have cancer. It isn't as clear as mental illness. I have people I thought were mentally ill, but what do I know about what is "normal"? Hell, I might be crazy. After all, I visit this site often and every time I do I get a bit crazier.
http://www.uncommon-knowledge.co.uk/articles/strings-psychopathy.html
there are lots of them who know they are ill and wat the sympathy you would give to someone truly in distress and i need of psychological help...
Pretty sure the OP was just attacking "socialism" and doesn't actually have any kind of (diagnosed) mental illness...
Have a Fish for the attempt.
The internet is just the latest place for political discussion.
VERY serious stuff is done here.
Some people say the internet is the place where DECISIONS ARE MADE. I tend to agree.
For example, Kadaffi's death warrant was written down in the internet. I personally was part of it and I do not regret it. Kadaffi was a bastard who killed for pleasure. He killed people of my nation. Therefore I strongly supported the death warrant.
For operational reasons I will not go into the details here, but I can assure you this is not a phantasy of mine.
There exist places where very powerful people meet and serious decisions are made.
Do you really think the internet can be "free of government" and "free of intelligence agencies" ???
A goddamn expert at everything... Who knew?
Partly because so little is known about the brain/mind. With something like a heart attack or a murder, there's a fairly clear sequence of cause-effect relationships that start with an known and end with a known. With mental illness, the genetics are obscure and too complex to fathom out by any conventional methods. Genetics aren't, however, the only contributing factor. Epigenetics, chemical signals, environment (including stimuli) right the way through life, it's a nightmare.
There are already 1,100 genes - not SNPs, genes - linked to the brain and 23&Me typically links about 50 SNPs of interest to each gene. That's 55,000 possible mutations, which gives you 2^55000 (10^16500) different combinations. In comparison, there are only 7x10^9 people alive on the planet (which means you can't get good resolution data on how variables interact, even if you studied everyone alive today) and about 10^100 atoms in the universe (which means that you'd nowhere to store sufficient data even if you could obtain it). That's just the genetic contribution, nothing else. What the everything else is, and how it relates, is only known in vague details. That's why news stories on yet another breakthrough are commonplace.
To make things worse, culture hasn't yet caught up to the idea there even is a theory of mind. It's still in some sort of Die Hard - Neolithic stage. Medicine isn't much better, the DSM manual has absolutely bugger all to do with what conditions and illnesses exist, it's about what tag the insurance should be billed under. The American psychiatric association is too busy digging its way out of the threat of criminal charges over direct assistance and fraudulent financial dealings to worry about anyone who is actually sick. The NHS can't afford anything more complex than a door-stop, right now, so don't expect Britain to haul anyone out of this mess. (Britain actually has a fairly good reputation on theoretical and practical psychiatric and neurological treatments, or at least it used to. Now, it's about on equal footing to Zimbabwe.) Australia has a Centre of the Mind, but it looks like it's a long way from getting anywhere - if it does at all. Some of its research seems iffy.
So there's no useful categorization, no meaningful theory, no known mechanics, superficial treatments for only certain diagnoses with rather suspect evidence to back them, no systematic approach towards system analysis, triage or debugging. Not even a definition of what a bug is.
The information in this post plus the fact that I've been here a long time aught to allow anyone here to identify (in very superficial terms) one out of the eight diagnoses I endure. Won't help you, won't help me. Those diagnoses aren't useful if you do want to help anyone, because each is subject to an overlapping combinatorial explosion. No, if you want to be helpful, there are citizen science projects for exploring the brain that will benefit the experts and there are probably insights the deep enthusiasts can contribute somehow by exploring databases and literature from perspectives that aren't obvious to researchers.
When it comes to interacting - understand, respect and listen. Oh, and don't fetishize any principle other than first doing no harm. Every other ethic, philosophy or cultural belief should be expendable if it contradicts that. Consider it a mandatory access control.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
All it would take to make it so in the US would be a change to the capital gains tax.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Welcome to Slashdot! You came to the right place for that.
Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!
Vote for Bernie in 2016!
It's okay Bruce. We know you're the anonymous submitter here.
I am a developer/IT guy who has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. It is still heavily stigmatized and has directly affected my career.
Who has never, ever had a cough, a fever, a muscle pull?
The term "Mental Illness", till today, still has the taboo that has the 'permanence' stigma tagged on it, but in truth, 'mental illness' like all other illnesses, could be big, permanent, or small, temporary
One could suffer from an illness that never goes away, a permanent handicap - similarly one could suffer from a mental illness that will stick for the entire lifetime
On the other hand, one could have a cold that goes away in a short while, and one could also be depressed which goes away in a few days
I am a geek, and I have been with many other geeks in my lifetime, and the one thing that makes geeks so geeky ... is from something deep inside our psyche which drives us to behave so differently
Many of us had (and still have) to endure all kinds of insult from the world at large because of our own geekiness, and most of us suffered untold rounds of bullyings by those who think they are 'better' than us --- but still, we tough it out, come hell or high water, and remain as geeky as ever ... WHY?
I wouldn't call geekiness 'mental illness' per se, but if we are to look from the logical perspective, why the geek insist on acting 'geeky' when the very act of 'geekiness' attracts bullies in pounce on them, not very far from waving red cloth in front of bulls attracting their attention?
The fact that we geeks remain geeks because of our illogical mental state, and it is that illogical conclusion that lead to our seemingly endless sufferings, at the hands of the bullies
In short ... who can say they never, ever, suffer from mental illness?
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Actually, when you have insurance you don't get free drugs, you get prepaid drugs
psychopaths categorically do not "suffer" from mental illness. ,they have a thrid less grey and white matter in their ovverall brains which is clearly indicative of a very different growth and development during pre and post natal stages. ..
they do however have an incurable unchanging deficit of common empathy and the brain structures associated with this attribute, (parts of the forebrain , limbic system and amygdalae are shrunken and misshpaen , oddly connected
The behavioural traits of these individuals if spotted early in childhood are called "calllous conduct disorder" similar and analogous to psychopathy in adulthood but the hop eis early identification and maagement of the child condition and antisocual aspects , proper boundaries maintained the callous disordered child does not always become the adult psychopath , often they do despite intervetion and all efforts
oce in adulthood no treatment is advised and they con their therapists into thiking the treatmet has worked..
when it hasnt their behaviour of ot criminal doest change and the recidivism rate of the psychopath in the crimanl field? is higher with "treatment" of any kind than without.
They do not suffer, talk to one.. ask one,,,
they often will give quite pompous and candid answers about how your "crazy " and they are not..
and they arent...they are morally insane.,,itrs very differnet.
Nobody willing to talk about it?
Medicine doesn't cure mental illness, gun ownership does. Just ask the folks at the NRA.
Ian Murdock
Aaron Schwartz
Ilya Zhitomirskiy
(Just to name a few...)
I'm happy enough to talk about mental illness, but there is a good reason that newspapers in Australia rarely publicize suicides. Unlike getting cancer, suicides can inspire similar behaviour in people who are close to the edge. This is especially the case if the suicide is an attempt to get attention, which this one appears to be. We don't want to encourage people to think of suicide as a good way to get attention.
To me, the only surprising thing is that they would take the trouble to find out from something like alcoholism. I think tracing people out like that should be reserved for crimes, bit 'taint necessarily so.
I said it then, I'll say it again. Before I retired, I would never ever ever have gone to a website about alcoholism, mental illness, or suicide.
If I had, and after they traced me out, my job would have given me a choice of being fired, or seeking treatment. Even with treatment, my job would have forever changed.
What is worse, although my alcohol is limited to less than 1 adult beverage per month, I would at that point be required to pretend actually having a drinking problem, or else I would be branded as resisting treatment. Gar, sounds like a basis for a novel.
People need to quit treating the web as a private place. It isn't. Get help if you need it, but go through channels that will give you a bit of privacy.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Preach on! Keep up the good fight! And, let me salute your obviously successful campaigns against other socialist institutions like libraries and public schools.
Do... do you even know what socialism is?
I am like many of you -- I love Drupal, I love Bootstrap, I appreciate the accessibility tags in HTML5 and how they finally allow a developer to address screen readers in a standardized way.
But I also have bipolar disorder. The Internet provides real life flame wars for my nervous system to engage in when hyped up, and an endless round of people to ill-advisedly e-mail when I am feeling down.
Both LGBT issues and diagnoses are in fact valid things to be aware of. Mental illness is a disability. While there are perks to being bipolar, it does change the way I am, and I really do benefit in the vast majority of cases from letting people know.
apt-get unity
is everybody just fucking nuts?
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Bruce's statement is factual (or if not, it certainly APPEARS factual), and is meant to be kind. Stop manufacturing offense.
When someone dies, it's simple respect to his friends and admirers to report the cause and circumstance of his death. From the reports of Murdock's death, it was indisputable that something went very, very wrong in his brain.
Calling someone rude for saying so, presupposes that one is revealing a shameful situation. Not only is that ludicrous, it disrespects the dead. Dude got sick and died. Shouldn't we talk about how to help the next person who gets sick avoid dying?
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Who has never, ever had a cough, a fever, a muscle pull?
The term "Mental Illness", till today, still has the taboo that has the 'permanence' stigma tagged on it, but in truth, 'mental illness' like all other illnesses, could be big, permanent, or small, temporary
One could suffer from an illness that never goes away, a permanent handicap - similarly one could suffer from a mental illness that will stick for the entire lifetime
On the other hand, one could have a cold that goes away in a short while, and one could also be depressed which goes away in a few days
I am a geek, and I have been with many other geeks in my lifetime, and the one thing that makes geeks so geeky ... is from something deep inside our psyche which drives us to behave so differently
Many of us had (and still have) to endure all kinds of insult from the world at large because of our own geekiness, and most of us suffered untold rounds of bullyings by those who think they are 'better' than us --- but still, we tough it out, come hell or high water, and remain as geeky as ever ... WHY?
I wouldn't call geekiness 'mental illness' per se, but if we are to look from the logical perspective, why the geek insist on acting 'geeky' when the very act of 'geekiness' attracts bullies in pounce on them, not very far from waving red cloth in front of bulls attracting their attention?
The fact that we geeks remain geeks because of our illogical mental state, and it is that illogical conclusion that lead to our seemingly endless sufferings, at the hands of the bullies
In short ... who can say they never, ever, suffer from mental illness?
Actually, when you have insurance you don't get free drugs, you get prepaid drugs
Not anymore. My last two corporate jobs - the type that previously would have provided decent deductibles and $10 co-pays for both standard doctor visits and also prescriptions - both switched to catastrophic plans. That means I pay the first $2K out of pocket for EVERYTHING. It's about $5K for famillies.
The allergy drug I take - which was off patent before I was even born, and costed me around €20 / month w/o insurance (when I lived in the EU) somehow costs about $200 / month in the US. For the generic version. Somehow, all of the companies that used to manufacture the drug were gobbled up by the big boys and the cost sky rocketed.
This was actually part of Obamacare: the idea was to push more people to high deductible plans which would then allow the 'free market' to take over and introduce price aware consumers into the market. Unfortunately, the Feds didn't take care of the supply side - forcing the drug companies to compete via the ability to import drugs from overseas and dictate that hospitals and physicians actually advertise their prices like every single other industry in the US. So what we have now is drugs that cost 10x-100x the price of Canada or Mexico and alphabet-soup hospital bills with $50 aspirins and $10K / a night stays. Shameful.
Some wouldn't be able to suppress those identifiers without the help of the support systems, the kind GP alluded to.
Other uses of these systems (on top of said discretion, and on top of gun rampage prevention) include helping the less socially adept with handling the ever-increasing subtleties in modern discourse. Something I'm sure you can appreciate.
Well, would appreciate. Your whoosh suggests you were unfortunate enough to be born in one of the "I've got mine, fuck you." countries and had no such support. Earth itself is an ovarian lottery, but at least you're probably in the Golden Billion.
It's likely necessary that I spoonfeed out the Bonus Tier of irony, where GP not only goes on a rampage anyway (despite coming from a supportive locale) but does it against the very population that supported him/her.
If you're still confused, "GP is full of shit and so is the absurd possibility that I would sincerely request a fucking murder spree." (ps Never read A Modest Proposal or you'll probably blogpost enough whoosh to collapse the planet)
If you have a mental illness you have an illness. That is all.
Any problems or baggage people dump on that illness is theirs and not yours.
I have at least two "mental" illnesses. These are treated, much like my high cholesterol and prostrate issues. I see no reason why these issues differ from one another. If anything I'd think Americans might consider prostrate problems a bigger secret than mental illness, given their issues with guns and large cars. Just saying.
Missed the point entirely I see
I was going to write a reply about how one could do it on YouTube, because the new hip thing to do is to call everyone autistic, here in Sweden and old such phase is "CP" for cerebral pares and also "mongo" for retarded / down-syndrome.
But since the first comment was serious I'll make a twist and go serious and just say that people joking with those comments don't help. I'm 36 and strong enough in myself that it doesn't matter to me but for someone in their teens they likely don't want to bring up any mental flaws and issues when it's always made a joke and used as a degrading term.
Mental conditions are normal. Don't try to control or fuck with something normal.
madinamerica.com
Stay silent; it is the message that is clearly being shouted today from the hill very loudly and clear! To speak of anything that might have a stigma of mental illness means the risk of a losing your liberty and freedoms. With the current assault on 2nd amendment; more people will forgo treatment than risk having their rights trampled on.
If this guy was a criminal who died in prison because of his condition.
Yes, yes we are. Something Bruce said that you might find interesting:
I'll tell you another secret then. Open Source was a mistake. I am not a Freetard any longer.
And there's a good chance that some folks will not believe this was a quote from him, it was. Others might suggest that it is taken out of context, it isn't, I will cite it:
This is the relevant link.
I'm assuming he too has gone off the deep end or, more realistically, has been using the movement to gain popularity and money and now has enough to disassociate with the movement, as it has served its purpose.
He just might be crazy. But he appears to be burning bridges as fast as he can.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Mental Illness takes faith to understand. It's nothing like a broken bone, or collapsed lung where someone can say "wow, that sucks" by looking at you or an image. Mental illness can't be seen, and really with as much as we know about the mind much is really unknown. Every mental illness effects people differently. Hell, nerve damage in general impacts everyone differently for that matter.
Not being able to see things makes mental illness a target for abuse. People abusing the trust of people leads to suspicions about whether or not a person is really ill, and ridicule and humiliation for people caught abusing trust.
The real world problems you mention don't change much from physical to mental. Smokers, people with bad hearts, people with diabetes, etc.. all pay more for insurance and may become a liability at work. A carpenter with heart disease probably won't be on the job very long, just like your job would not be sustainable with a mental illness. Sucks, but not really when you think it all through.
Anyway, long story long. The stigmas associated with various mental illnesses don't become easy to break down. Open dialogue sure will help all aspects though.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Important detail, because the Internethappens to be global.
What is a mental health issue and how to deal with it is not globally defined. As in scientific classification systems from the USA (RCDC), UK (HRCS) and AU (FOR) having a completely different "mental health" category.
Hi Bill,
Ian was someone we should mourn, and we should not be discussing his problems due to this Daniel person. We can't help Ian now, although we can help other people who have his problems.
I was not Ian's employer. I was, however, the chairman of the board of Progeny Linux Systems for a while, and my company arranged the initial $5 Million capitalization of Progeny. I had no real control of the company, the investors were the Simon group, known for their shopping malls.
I will give you one sad fact about Ian which is concrete. Ian was arrested in Indianapolis in 2009 for three counts of battery, one of criminal confinement, one of public intoxication.
The encounter with police before his death was a continuation of Ian's previous behavior. The guy is dead, he did some great stuff, he had problems. Let's not drag him through the gutter further.
Bruce Perens.
...Perens is a giant dick.
Or possibly you missed the irony of the context of his statement.
You're free to view the thread and share this missing irony. Well, there's irony there - it's just probably not intended. Expand the thread and have a look. It's not like I'm making this up, took the quote out of context, or even altered what he said. The dude used and abused the group to get what he wanted and now is happy to deride them, as a group, and as a pejorative. I haven't got a nickel invested in it - just read it for yourself. 'Snot like I have the capacity to go edit his comments.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
What do we know about Murdock's death? He had an altercation with a neighbor who for all we know had his stereo blaring and that something happened to Murdock in police custody which shook him badly: allegedly that he was beaten and maybe raped with a baton. So who doesn't Peren volunteer for a good beating and ass rape and see if he can maintain a stiff upper lip after? If not Peren should keep his speculation to himself and let the coroner and DA do their jobs.
Have you really read the posts leading up to Bruce Perens' post?
Two different people call him out to be "pinnacle for freedom" and "a guy who is supposed to champion freedom" and because of this he shouldn't be opposed to their "freedom" to bear arms. I am all for Bruces position, what about others freedom not to be surrounded by neighbors with guns?
Freedom is not black and white and what makes you "free" might make others less free. Advocating freedom in one case does not mean that you want everything to be "free".
In that light, re-read what Bruce wrote and see if you can spot the irony. But yes, irony and sarcasm translates poorly into the written medium and is often misunderstood.
is everybody just fucking nuts?
Nope, they are fucking crazy!
Have I read them? You might want to see who the author of those posts was. There is no irony there. Not one shard of it. I'd wondered where you were going with that. Now I see... No, there's no minimizing, the words speak for themselves and you can interpret them as you wish. I dare say you've some strange ideas about what freedom is and what it isn't but that's a topic for another day and this really isn't about you.
But no, the words are there for those who wish to read them. It's pretty hard to misinterpret statements about open-source being a "mistake" and the use of "freetard." You can willfully misinterpret them if you wish, that's the great thing about freedom, but that doesn't actually alter reality. In fact, the link to the post and the invitation to expand the thread and read it yourself are there for a reason. Just because it's likely that people will try to misinterpret them and it's better to have the actual source.
However, thanks for sharing what it is that you were trying to express. I find it a curious interpretation and I wonder if it might be due to some personal biases on your part but, alas, this isn't really about you. Unless, of course, you're him and posting as AC? That's rather unlikely, however.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
yes massa, Not All Women Are Like That.
How To Talk About Mental Illness Online?
Easy: Blah dooby dooby dooby whing bang .... I'm a tea pot.
Usually being open about ones life is a good thing, when surrounded by good people. But not everyone is good. Some see opportunity in someone who is "gone mentally anyhow", human tests of pharmaceuticals come to mind. And some don't know they were used as a test person. Really they should get compensation if that comes to light. I've had 3 or 4 different medications in my mental illness life, some I disfavor because they made me hungry all the time and I gained a lot of weight. The consequences of something like that may be worse to someone else, it doesn't really bother me. I'm more focused around the time when I can reduce my medication. It's been over a decade that I've taken these meds. My doctor doesn't know to tell me that I have to keep taking these for decades to come. And no compensation at all from anyone. You don't chose this life, it chooses you. And you have to deal with the set-backs that it comes with. Thank goodness I was born in a 1st world nation that's all I can say.
They don't own him. You can't own someone who ceased existing, and even a living person doesn't belong to anybody but themselves. Free speech is a thing. People who interacted with someone who killed himself in what appears to be a deranged episode must be able to talk about it, especially since they can no longer talk with him. If psychological terms aren't allowed for laypeople, what kind of terms should we use when describing someone's apparent state of mind? Go back to religious? No thanks.
As someone whose tax dollars are helping to pay for your support and meds, I'm glad. I'm really glad that the system is helping you and I wish it would help more people. I see lots of people who, for varied reasons, indicate that they're unable to get the support they need. Truth be told, I'm pretty sure we're paying enough in taxes but spending it poorly. However, if they'd spend it more wisely, I'd not mind paying more.
So, while your "thanks" seemed a bit sarcastic (it's hard to tell on the 'net), let me say, "You're welcome. Is there any service that you really need that you are unable to access?"
When I'm home, I go to see a headshrinker. She assures me that I'm (mostly!) sane so now I mostly see a therapist because I find it is good to bounce ideas off an objective person. I want someone to find the flaws and help me think better. I enjoy it. I used to go to a group session and I found that the most beneficial but, well, the people in there (as I've explained before) had serious issues and I felt like I was taking time from them. So, I'm not actually selfish and I quit attending. It'd be kind of neat if they had some sort of group therapy for people who aren't actually suffering from mental illness - something structured the same way. CBT is actually pretty handy - beyond mental illness. It's great for introspection. These days, I only see the headshrinker for meds - she gives me a sleeping med but I don't normally take it. It makes me feel hungover in the morning and groggy for the whole day.
At any rate, you're welcome and I hope you're doing well in your recovery. I've a sibling who is mentally ill and her health care is a fortune as she's also very physically ill. (It's *thousands* per week just for her TPN supplies.) So, yes, it's good to see someone who hasn't fallen through the cracks. Perhaps, maybe, you can share how it is you didn't end up falling through the cracks and that sort of comment might help another person? Who did you reach out to first or did you have an intervention not of your own choosing? No need for details or specifics that might identify you but, well, it'd be nice to have that information out there and it might be of value for someone else.
I imagine such services vary per State. My sister gets some help paid for but the pittance they give her to live on is pretty low. I end up making up the difference but I have to be careful how I do so. For instance, certain medicine is paid for but they won't supply others. Some of them, if I buy them, they'll stop paying for others. For an example, I have to pay for her whole morphine pump, supplies, and that sort of thing plus I have to pay for her breakthrough meds. She could have one or the other and if I paid for one they were going to not pay for the other. That means I pay for both the pump and the sublingual strips that she uses for breakthrough pain. I found a decent supplier that has a compounding pharmacist and they rent the machines and take care of it - they even deliver. However, I'll avoid sharing the price but it's a whole ton of money - even by the week.
So, yeah, as I said - you sounded like you were being sarcastic but you're more than welcome. I'm glad it is working out for you and curious as to what more we can do to help get you to the point where you're able to enjoy day-to-day living and find life rewarding? Fortunately, I don't have to pay for her DLS folks who spend 6 to 8 hours a day with her. I imagine that she'll be in end-of-life care soon but I'm doing what I can to give her the things she needs to enjoy the time she does have. Her kids keep talking about repaying me and all that crap, which kind of sucks actually. See, they don't have a pot to piss in between them. It's not about the money, it's about the moments. So, yeah, what services do you think would help you have more of those moments? I ask because I might be able to help a needy sibling.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I got modded 0, flamebait for suggesting exactly this about Ian Murdock: http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
So yeah, even though the signs are written all over the friggin' wall, people don't like to hear about it. They think you're being mean, not realizing, or not wanting to know, that not talking about it is actually the mean thing to do.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
There are multiple problems with mental illness:
As psychologists and slashdotters here have indicated, there's few metrics for what is a mental illness. There was even an experiment where provably sane people were put in insane asylum and its staff confirmed each (sane) patient had a certain mental illness.
There's little cause to effect for mental illness, making treatment difficult.
Mental illness, unlike a broken arm, is difficult to see and impossible to calculate its daily/weekly effect.
Mental illness also affects our character, or more importantly, perception of our character (honesty, violence, drug addiction, financial/emotional stability, commitment/loyalty efforts). So to avoid being misjudged and labelled, harassed, or even fired from work, people can't talk about their mental illness.
The majority still see many mental illnesses (eg. depression, addiction, anorexia/bulimia) as not serious and probably self-inflicted.
Doesn't look like he did - he is pointing that his experience of insurance is neither free, nor prepaid.
Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
Today I learned that (1) David Bowie just passed away, and (2) Bruce Perens, a man I held immense respect for, has abandoned the principles he spent most of his career defending. Today is not a good day. -PCP
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No. Socialism requires that private property is converted into public property which is then lent (often without a fee) to people. In socialism you can have a planned economy. However, this is not compulsory. Alternative models are based on management by the, for example, the employees of a company. For more details please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... before you say anything else about socialism which you learned from FoxNews. Thanks.
No it is not. And if you would get your information from serious sources instead of FoxNews then you would know what socialism means. Feel free to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... It might provide a good start for understanding the term.
I understand. I guess Bowie died of the Big C and was 69. I sent my sister (she's a fan) a text after someone posted about it in a comment in the PostgreSQL thread. That's kind of sad.
As for Bruce? Well, I'd feel used if I'd helped support him. I'd not be surprised if some of my donation dollars somehow made it to him but that's okay. It's unfortunate but I've come to grips with it. It was I who he said it to, after all. So, yeah, it's unfortunate as I had held him in high esteem. I do appreciate his honesty.
It's sad, but not surprising, that people are trying to minimize it or to claim there's irony or things like that. It's like they don't want to believe it or don't actually understand the concepts of freedom and liberty. They don't seem to accept that the claiming open-source was a mistake and that he's referencing the movement as a pejorative are not good things to hear from this particular source. I mean, yeah, I'd not care if it came from Steve Balmer. It matters because of who said it.
It was those "freetards" that enabled him to be where he is today. It was they who gave him financial support and a platform. Without them, he'd probably be nothing. Now that he has his assets and voice, he can abandon them. They're being abused and a couple of the other replies seem to indicate at least a few people are willing to take more abuse. Speaking of mental illness...
Anyhow, I've seen you post a number of times and you generally have good things to say. You could get an account. ;-) It'd make finding your posts easier though I can understand some of the reasons people have for not wanting to sign up.
Ah well, 'tis a sad day indeed. What's really odd is that I'd just re-watched an older documentary about the making of Linux and the Free Software movement, Bruce was in it, and he was extolling the virtues of free software and taking part in a documentary about basic freedoms and how we need to have freedom. Albeit they were using the word freedom when the word liberty is more apt but I've no need to quibble over trivial details when the message is basically the same.
I will try to continue to post the link and comment in other threads. It's tempting to go to the sites listed and see if they allow comments - I could then quote and link this so that they could be aware of it. I probably should but I figure he can tell them himself. It's not my job to take it from this site into another community but they should probably be aware that he's just using them and doesn't actually care for the movement, for free software, or even for freedom. I believe another quote was, "I'd take your guns, I hope to do so someday." Not, "I'd support stronger legislation to ensure greater safety and hope to do so someday." No, he'd take your freedom and hopes to do so someday. At least he's being honest about something at this point.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Dude... what language is that even ? If your goal was to prove that something (I'm guessing anti-government idiots like Vanilla ISIS up in Oregon) are not crazy... you achieved exactly the opposite with that incoherent rant.
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No. Sometimes we are fucking nuts, othertimes we are fucking pussies, or assholes or, most often, our palms.
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I did read the thread and expanded it and it is *very* obvious that the post you quoted was flagrant sarcasm.
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Well minor correction -even the conversion from private to public property is not a requirement - it's merely a common factor in many (but not all) forms of socialism.
Socialism exists whenever the workers own the means of production. Every worker-owned co-op in the world is an example of working socialism in action - those include the biggest robotics company in the USA (geeks and worker-owned/democratically worker-managed industry is a perfect fit it turns out). But so is most New York cab drivers socialists (if they own the cabs they drive) no matter how fervently most would deny that (seeing as very few people have any idea what the word means).
One could argue that kickstarter is in many ways a form of anarcho-socialism - taking capital-owners out of the process of creating new products by letting consumers directly fund the creation of products they want.
There is nothing about socialism, as defined, which requires a government or state, nor does a particular type of government or state need to be in place - you don't even need a particular set of laws or economic system.
Such things could be argued would be ideal for making socialism widepsread, some may argue it is required to achieve that - but they are nevertheless auxiliary to what makes socialism socialist - which has nothing to do with any of those things. That's a debate, at best, about marketing the idea - not about the idea itself.
From a look at history - I am actually of the opinion that socialism works best when it happens organically without state interference. When the workers simply save up over time and buy the business from the shareholders so they can own and run it themselves. It's the slowest, most painful, most legally fraught and riskiest way to do it, but it also doesn't leave any dead bodies behind and worker-owned coops that start in this manner are remarkably successful with a success rate far higher than normal capitalist-style investor businesses. In Argentina after the economic collapse thousands of abandoned factories were taken over and ran by their former workers in this manner and became successful - there are still over 20-thousand of them today (by far the largest sector of the country's economy).
All of these businesses were successfully run and made profitable as worker-owned enterprises in the same economic conditions where they previously as top-down-hierarchical investor-owned businesses had failed. Wisdom of crowds seems to work very well for managing a business in tough economic conditions.
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By posting this and not mentioning events in his twitter stream, you are completely ignoring the fact he was beaten up by the police. In all likelihood, if he hadn't been beaten up by the police, Ian Murdock would be alive today.
Did you not read his follow-up posts? 'Cause you're free to reach those conclusions but yeah... I'm pretty sure when he doubles down on it - it isn't sarcasm any longer. But, one of the great things about freedom is that you're free to interpret it how you want and it's not likely that any effort I make will help you change your views. I'm okay with that just so long as we're open and honest about.
He goes on to tell us how *his* freedom is more important than that of other people and, by freedom, he means safety. We can debate the various definitions of what is and isn't cowardice and what is and isn't proper motivation for restricting liberties but that's immaterial. What is salient is that the comments are there to be read by anyone wishing to do so. It's hard for me to see sarcasm when he goes on to double down on it. I wanted to see it that way, I wanted to think it was flippant, I wanted to believe I was not understanding - he indicated that I was not. Those are his words, not mine.
It's not up to me to say anyone other than my interpretation and to give the actual data to support the interpretation. Expand the thread, read the thread, and draw your own conclusions but I sincerely suggest you read the rebuttal. It's not like I've a vendetta, I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to say, "Yeah, maybe if we look at it like that then we can see it as something different." That was *really* tempting to do until he doubled down on it. If you want to believe it's sarcasm, if you can believe that, then all the more power to you.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Perens was the same guy who made the post about tech guys being abusive of women. How do we know that he and Ian didn't have some kind of feud going on, with Perens using some kind of social justice view as a weapon? How do we know the arrest wasn't somehow tied into that? After all, Perens here is claiming that Ian died of mental illness, with no proof whatsoever, essentially damning him after death without giving him any benefit of the doubt.
There are a ton of questions that have NOT been answered.
1. Was that actually Ian posting?
2. What happened, and what were the background details?
At this point, I don't think that Perens is a source we should be using.
It looks sarcastic and ironical, and really badly phrased and not followed up. I can't imagine him using the word "freetard" seriously.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Oddly enough, the Soviet Union discovered a mental illness that was almost the exact opposite.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Not socialism. The difference is really simple. Communism is public ownership of the means of production. Socialism is govt regulation of income inequality to prevent abuses, slavery by wages and ensure a minimum and humane standard of life. Don't fall for the propaganda. We can make the world a better place for everyone.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
A certain amount of geekiness may be Autism Spectrum Disorder, which is considered a mental illness, and not a curable one, although smart people with ASD can learn to fake normality. If I cared to be evaluated, I think I'd likely get an ASD diagnosis, but at this stage of life I see absolutely no benefit in such a diagnosis.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
No, it's followed up. For some reason, Slashdot doesn't expand them all.
http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Of course it was sarcastic. I reject the concept that to be an Open Source or Free Software evangelist, I also must stand for your "Freedom" to put holes in everyone around you with your guns, which obviously deprives them of their freedom.
Bruce Perens.
Someone who speaks rationally about mental illness on the internet? Sir, if I had points, I would break the system to give you all of them.
More context:
http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
Bruce Perens is a pseudonym for King George.
His comments about open source had no bearing on the topic other than to say "No, I'm not that man you thought I was. I hate freedom, why don't you understand that?"
what about others freedom not to be surrounded by neighbors who are black?
You don't have that freedom. A handy little rule of thumb: when you believe you have the freedom to force others not to do something that does not effect you, you do not actually have that freedom.
Of course it was sarcastic. I reject the concept that to be an Open Source or Free Software evangelist, I also must stand for your "Freedom" to put holes in everyone around you with your guns, which obviously deprives them of their freedom.
Why then, the pejorative and the consistent message that you are no longer associated with open source?
Regarding our "freedom" to put holes in everyone with our guns... That's not the freedom we have. There are laws against that, just like there are laws against putting holes in everyone with our knives, swords, baseball bats, cars, explosive/flammable materials or any other object that can be used in a dangerous manner. In the United States, we have the right to possess and wield weapons (bear arms), not the right to use them indiscriminately.
You should seriously buy a large cache of firearms then.
My mistake. The 1st line: ..."
is a quote from the grandparent comment and should have been in an italic font.
"... I'm mentally ill and don't give a fuck
That sentence was sarcasm - only you think the other posts were related to it. Every sane person reaches the opposite conclusion: the *reason* he made that sarcastic post was to tell you how stupid you are for conflating your gun-nuttery with freedom - and especially with software freedom.
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That's an interesting perspective. A comment to me, from a reply by me, is not related to the comment made to me. What a peculiar thought process you must have. It's even more curious that you'd attempt to control the narrative by using a pejorative.
I don't know much about you but I'd speculate that you don't really understand freedom or, more importantly, liberties. I'd be happy to explain them to you but, judging by your predisposition to use pejoratives, it's fairly easy to conclude that you'll not be swayed regardless of any information presented. (There's a name for that type of behavior, I suspect you claim to despise it, even if you exemplify it.)
I did note that Slashdot does not seem inclined to show the response - you might actually be missing that. However, I suspect you'd hand-wave that away too. Dismissal, with a pejorative, and with little ability to actually understand the concepts. It's okay, I've been afraid of things too. I used to have a nonsensical fear of the bats when I was a child. I'm quite positive that I let that fear impact my life to the point where that fear was clouding my emotions and preventing me from doing otherwise enjoyable things. I even went so far as to insist that friends who visited stay inside when they came over - lest I go out just after dusk and face those bats.
So, I understand what it's like to let cowardice cloud my judgment and make me try to stop others from enjoying themselves. The difference between you and I is that I'm no longer afraid of bats and I understand the idea that freedom carries with it inherent risks and that liberties are something to be preserved. I've also seen laws like the Patriot Act passed because people are afraid. I've seen what a group of properly motivated, fearful, people do in the name of protecting themselves against extremely low probabilities.
You can be a coward. That's okay. But you can't be a coward and claim to stand for freedom. The two are diametrically opposed. It's not my failing that has resulted in your unwillingness to grasp this and no amount of effort on my part is going to alter your views. No matter how much effort I put into it, no matter how much data I pull up, no matter how many times I show the faults in your logic - you will not budge. It's an internet debate, you'll not adjust your views one bit, no matter how much data is given to the contrary.
Again, you can be a coward if you want - that's your right. Your fear is not justification to take away the liberties of another. You can not speak of freedom while still a coward any more than a blind man can describe a color. A coward is not a free man. The goal should not be to entice others to join you in your cowardice but to rid yourself of your fear - by accepting that there are inherent risks in all activities. There's a huge swath of difference between "reasonable regulation" and "take them from you."
Yet it is I, the one using sound logic and reason who you're calling a 'nutter.' You're calling the person who is expressing the need to preserve our liberties a 'nutter.' You're using a pejorative to refer to the person(s) who are concerned with liberty while declaring that you too speak on behalf of freedom. I don't think the insane person is the one you think it is. It's remarkable that you're able to do that sort of mental gymnastics and keep a straight face. "I'll take your rights. I speak for freedom."
I stand by what I've said, I stand by my interpretations, I stand by my beliefs - because I am not coward. Fortunately, nobody with any power is ever going to listen to you. Hopefully, we'll get some sane enforcement of existing legislation and adequate mental health care. Probably not - the actual gun nuts have too much power. Thankfully, you're powerless to control the actual narrative because some of us will continue to speak up and ensure you do not control the narrative. Don't worry, we're the same ones that speak up when the real "gun nuts" speak up and try to control the narrative.
There's a new public firing
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
The poster who said he gets 'free' drugs, gets prepaid drugs. That's all. No ambiguity.
You have the right to bear arms, not "weapons". Not tactical nukes for instance.
World is complicated, if you can't follow along then you are exactly where they want you, the short bus. Me, I will be following along trolling the gubbermint about Russians having more rights than US citizens do because they haven't been made stupid so a batch of inbred banksters could stay on the ball.
And that his/her experience of the US health care system suggests that it is broken. When the cost of common drugs is inflated 10 fold there is an issue. Other places with national health care systems can control the price of some drugs. Is that advantageous? That depends on if you need them. In the UK the NHS has massive purchasing power so aspirin does not cost $10. Prescription drugs are limited to £8.20 probably about $10 or $12 dollars. http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/H....
Yep that is paid for by all of us as a tax. Not all drugs cost that much. Some cost far more. But nothing like the seriously odd amounts you seem to fork out in the US.
I said that "Not all drugs cost that much. Some cost far more". They do but not for the recipient. It lets people with ongoing problems not worry to much about medical costs. Oh yes a trip to hospital will not bankrupt you. Free health care. It is paid for as many seem to think it is a very good idea.
It's not personal risk that is the problem. If that was it, then it would, indeed, be a matter of liberty. Nobody has the right to stop you taking risks.
What we most certainly *do* have the right to do is to stop you from subjecting *other* people to risks without their consent.
That is the *opposite* of liberty.
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Oh, and I have no fear of guns, I was actually championship shot in my younger years.
But I've never been, nor will I ever be, a gun owner. On those occasions where I wish to shoot a gun for fun - it is so much safer to hire one. Having one in my house is insane, but not nearly as insane as not being concerned if my neighbour has one.
Unfortunately the NRA has one fact exactly backwards: the vast majority of gun owners are irresponsible idiots with penis-size issues.
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Right... you care about rights and liberties... considering that within your first sentence you echoed the utterly irrational xenophobic fear of refugees and called them "bomb makers" (like you don't have plenty of white bomb makers in America already) I doubt the sincerity of that very much. After that though, your post devolved into a wholly incoherent rant of blithering paranoia. It isn't a problem of following along - the problem is you just basically made a word salad with no sentence structure. The fact that you replace practically every word with some slang variant spelling doesn't help either.
Oh and *most* countries on earth have more rights than Americans - whenever Americans try to get those rights republicans convince them that letting people have those rights is taking away your "freedom".
You sound like Donald Trump on acid and are about as fit to govern.
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Yes, you are right, I forgot rapist. So bomb making rapist buddies. Ask the German news reporter that was gang raped by these seemingly harmless refugees over new years. While you are at it, either pull your head from your sphincter or come out of the closet on being a pro Islam superstitious nut job, or maybe you are a Christian double dipped with Catholic guilt, either way to me you are a superstitious nut job, so come on lets hear it, "Alah Akbar!". Bypassing Congress on fundamental principles this country was built upon is Tyranny and that is not the same as consent to be governed, but it is a fucking awesome plan if they are competing with Russia on Russian recruitment, they will kick ass with no question on that.
So now you are, again, judging an entire group of people by the actions of a few.
I will apply your logic and assume every American is exactly like those vanilla ISIS idiots in Oregon who were too dumb to take food along for their occupation and ready to shoot innocent people just for coincidentally having a job with the government.
I'm anti-religion, period. I despise all religion as a concept - but it's the magical thinking I despise, I have nothing but pity for the victims of religion - whatever that religion may be. I also know that your conclusions about Muslims are mathematically impossible. I know that there are about a million Muslims fighting ISIS for every Christian. 8 Muslim countries for every Christian one are fighting them. I know that if 1.6 billion people were like the few nutjobs you think are representative then we would all be dead. Oh and I know that most terrorists aren't Muslim to begin with - not by a long shot. In fact, Islam is only number 3 on a count of belief systems by terrorists within it.
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It is what it is any way you look at it, a bus load of retards that have been made stupid to accommodate the failing intellect of a batch of inbred geriatric banksters that have been playing god over the west and picking fights with Islam. If we don't want holy war then US leaders need to stop identifying the US as a Christian nation and we need to get a handle on the banksters and mafia. Now the Asians were about ready to remove the problem with the banksters recently within the last couple years but they have seen that there is a mathematical issue involving the federal reserve Ponzi scheme that is going to bring it all to a head and force the problem to be addressed.
Personally I'd rather reduce the damage these pricks do by making a surgical adjustment to the gene pool because their system is crashing anyway and them pricks are the ones ultimately responsible for my great grandfather ending up on the bottom of Lake Tahoe around the turn of last century just like the Asian rail workers and California mother lode miners undoubtedly for the same reason, and when they repeated themselves with my grandfather in 12/1963 is when we all lost CIA SR/OXCART per my great uncle Jack in 1992, my grandfather along with about 5 mil they stole. The instigators of the terrorist business can be isolated to a couple of nationalist governments, they are Great Brittan and Italy and their list of victims includes Germany, South Africa and soon to be the US and rest of the EU. Rockafeller's are in China but that is a good place for them because I have begun to attack Tahoe for natural resources to extract damages done to my family over the last century as their setup that got at my father two years ago included people behind the shield, can't sue the mafia or the banksters but you can damn sure make them wish you could, going after the water is going to expose the bankster/mafia mess at the bottom of the lake.
You seem to have claimed that people who have insurance get prepaid rather than free drugs. The AC did not miss your point, he corrected you. Insurance is only prepaid if it covers the whole cost, when it does not it is neither free nor prepaid.
If there is any ambiguity it is that when you made your claim you mean "you" entirely literally - to refer only to the poster that you were responding to, and not people with medical insurance in general. That is a non-standard / unusal way if phrasing what you meant and if that is the cause then your point was indeed lost somewhere in translation.
Either that or you were simply wrong and got corrected. It does seem in hindsight there is a little ambiguity about which happened.
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