ATF Puts Up Surveillance Cameras Around Seattle ... To Catch Illegal Grease Dump (muckrock.com)

v3rgEz writes: Last summer, Seattleites noticed that utility poles around town were showing some odd growths: A raft of surveillance cameras that, under Seattle's strict surveillance equipment laws, shouldn't have been there without disclosure and monitoring. But Seattle Police said that they weren't theirs, and one enterprising citizen followed up with a series of public records requests, only to discover that they were actually the ATF's cameras — on the watch for grease dumpers. Now the requester is fighting for the full list of federal surveillance watching over Seattle, and answers to how often federal agencies pursue what appear to be purely local crimes.

Comments

Polls

[alzoron]

What kinds of questions are on these odd, growth afflicted, utility polls?

ATF?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Why is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms interested in illegal grease dumping? Illicit grease disposal is a potential environmental, water quality, and combustion hazard issue; but that's more the EPA's thing, perhaps local authorities, maybe FBI if it's a interstate conspiracy.

Does somebody think that Tyler Durden is skimming off the grease to manufacture nitroglycerin for Project Mayhem and his anarcho-primitivist insurgency?

Re:ATF?

[i.r.id10t]

The BATFE started as a taxing agency, and is now a law enforcement agency, but should really just be a convenience store ....

Re:ATF?

[squiggleslash]

It probably isn't. The article does kinda sorta make that claim, but has no evidence whatsoever to back up the link. It actually appears to be saying that someone is using the ATF's cameras to conduct a grease dumping investigation, not that the ATF is itself conducting the investigation.

The facts seem to be:

- The ATF, FBI, and other Federal agencies have set up the cameras.
- Someone (TFA says ATF, but that's not believable and they offer nothing to back that up) is conducting a grease dumping investigation. They have access to these cameras set up by the FBI and ATF.
- The ATF themselves say the cameras they've put up were originally for a single investigation. They have been linked to a gun violence program in Seattle, so it is more than likely their investigation is linked to that.
- The ATF has emphatically not claimed its doing a grease investigation anywhere, which makes no sense.

It's a confusing article, but it doesn't really make the claim the headline does.

Re:ATF?

[pmocek]

Why is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms interested in illegal grease dumping?

I'm the Seattleite who dug up those records. ATF were likely not interested in people dumping grease. Seattle City Light were, because it was damaging their equipment. Since security manager Doug Williams at SCL regularly lets ATF and other agencies covertly install surveillance cameras on SCL's poles (which I learned by reading e-mails to and from him I received via Washington Public Records Act request), ATF were likely paying back the favor.

Wait, *what*?

[pla]

Grease dumping? Grease dumping?

1) How the hell does that fall under the ATF's jurisdiction?
2) Who dumps something they can sell as a (heating) fuel?
3) Does Seattle actually have that much of a problem with french fries that they need federal intervention?
4) Why can't you dump a biodegradable substance? Better bulldozed into an empty lot than rotting in a landfill for 150 years...

Re:Wait, *what*?

[bill_mcgonigle]

5) Who would actually take their cover-story at face value?

It doesn't pass the smell test.

Re: Wait, *what*?

[MightyYar]

That's not entirely state-of-the-art information. Current landfill technique is to indeed seal the contents from the groundwater - but they now encourage the contents to rot. In the 80s, they developed a technique of burying in layers, putting down a membrane, and then putting down another layer, etc. until the landfill is "full". At that point they cap it. Anything that leaches out of the bottom is hauled to a treatment plant. Over the last 10 years, they have modified this technique. Now between each layer they take the leech water and pour it back over the landfill. This encourages the landfill itself to become bio-reactive and to eat the nutrients in the leech water. They pretty much do this until the leech water runs more or less clear, and then they move on to the next step. This has several benefits:
1. Future leech water is much less nasty
2. Volume is reduced significantly, so more trash will fit.
3. It encourages methane production, which is captured and often used onsite or burned rather than slowly released into the atmosphere.

This - along with much improved recycling - is why we don't hear much about "running out of landfill space" anymore like we did in the 80s and 90s.

Re:Wait, *what*?

[gstoddart]

Everything after 1) is completely irrelevant.

Why would anybody believe that the ATF is even investigating illegal grease dumping into municipal sewers? You might as well expect me to believe the FBI is actively investigating people who don't mow their lawns or who spit on sidewalks.

It's completely implausible.

Yes, crap clogging sewers is a real thing. But this has nothing to do with a federal agency putting up surveillance cameras and then coming up with a bogus cover story for it.

This is the Men in Black saying "Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus" ... it's a cheap cover story, by agencies who won't admit to what they're really doing.

So basically a way to say FU to the citizens

[afidel]

We'll just get the feds to do all the monitoring and share their information because they don't have to listen to the local ordinance. It's like the local departments that use the federal civil forfeiture rules when their city or state tells them they can't steal from their citizens anymore. I wish federal courts would start smacking departments that do this hard, both collectively and individual officers and higher.

Bullshit ...

[gstoddart]

WTF does the ATF have to do with illegal grease dumping? What's that? Nothing at all?

They have neither the jurisdiction nor the interest in these crimes. If they're claiming it's for policing this kind of stuff, it's a big fucking lie.

This is just making shit up to allow them to put up cameras, against local laws, and then refuse to explain what the hell they're doing.

Yet more evidence that law enforcement doesn't give a crap about the law.

The slippery slope becomes (near) literal

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

Glad they only use surveillance to get terrorists. Lipid terrorism here

Who needs God?

[AndyKron]

Who needs God when you have Big Brother looking up your asshole?

Re:Grease can be used as fuel. Why would you dump

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

It isn't too much of a surprise that the economics of producing biodiesel from used restaurant oil are shaky; and it also wouldn't be much of a surprise if on-site/near-site illicit dumping by individual operators looking to avoid paying for collection would be pretty common; but I am a little surprised that, if you are going to go to the trouble of collecting the stuff, it isn't economic to burn in less demanding applications.

Coal-fired power plants, say, are much less picky about the details of the fuel than internal combustion engines or combined cycle gas turbines are(plus, given the sheer volume of coal involved, you could get rid of a lot of grease without changing the behavior of the fuel by much) since the fuel doesn't interact with the intricate moving parts; and whatever nasty mixture of grease, fried food scraps, carbony bits, etc. should release more energy when burned than it takes to get burning, and probably has lower sulfur, mercury, and similar contaminant levels.

Near the coast, "bunker fuel" might also be an option. Since operating costs depend heavily on fuel costs, and there are few air quality regulations once you get out of port, large ships burn some of the nastiest dregs of oil refining that nobody else wants; because they are cheap and because it's easier to deal with very high viscosity fuels when you are operating large, purpose built, engines. Given the horrible crap that gets used, you might not even need to strain used grease for it to qualify as an improvement.

Re:Grease can be used as fuel. Why would you dump

[afidel]

and it also wouldn't be much of a surprise if on-site/near-site illicit dumping by individual operators looking to avoid paying for collection would be pretty common

Uh, restaurants get paid for their grease, this might not be the case right now since soybeans had a good year last year and crude is so cheap that biodiesel isn't going to be in high demand, but over the last 10+ years it's been the case. That's why people working on B90 conversions have to be sure to ask the restaurants before they take grease for their vehicle.

Re:Grease can be used as fuel. Why would you dump

[ShanghaiBill]

Grease can also be used as an animal feed supplement. My chickens love bacon grease, or used frying oil mixed with their feed. I don't understand why anyone would just dump perfectly good grease. It should be easy to find someone to take it, and possibly even pay for it.

My guess is that the grease is just a cover story, and the real purpose of the cameras is something else entirely.

Re:Grease can be used as fuel. Why would you dump

[Anonymous Coward]

Biodiesel is a huge win on smallish boats. Diesel fumes make many people sick. Biodiesel fumes just make people want to eat french fries.

Re:Grease can be used as fuel. Why would you dump

[NotDrWho]

Couldn't they sell it instead of dumping it?

They would probably make a lot more selling all the bullshit in that "We're just looking for grease dumpers" story as fertilizer.

Re:Grease can be used as fuel. Why would you dump

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask yourself why the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms is hunting down grease dumping instead of, say, the EPA?

Re:Grease can be used as fuel. Why would you dump

[hey!]

Actually once you get to the nitroglycerin step you are squarely in the ATF's purview, since they regulate explosives. "ATF" is an anachronistic acronym; since 1970 agency's full actual name is "The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives".

But glycerin is a commonplace an innocuous chemical widely used in cosmetics and food; you can buy it by the barrel without raising any eyebrows. It makes no sense to reason that fats are under the purview of ATF because you can produce glycerin from it.

I tried to google the source of the grease story, and it appears that back in 2011 SCL asked for ATF's technical assistance in tracking down grease dumpers, but that the camera placements currently in question are for use in a current investigation by the Puget Sound Regional Crime Gun Task Force.

So no big mystery about why the ATF is tracking down grease dumpers, that's just a misreading of the evidence trail.