Slashdot Mirror


Ancient Babylonians Figured Out Forerunner of Calculus (sciencemag.org)

sciencehabit writes: Tracking and recording the motion of the sun, the moon, and the planets as they paraded across the desert sky, ancient Babylonian astronomers used simple arithmetic to predict the positions of celestial bodies. Now, new evidence reveals that these astronomers, working several centuries B.C.E., also employed sophisticated geometric methods that foreshadow the development of calculus. Historians had thought such techniques did not emerge until more than 1400 years later, in 14th century Europe.

25 of 153 comments (clear)

  1. We might as well break the new management in. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Funny

    Since today is Friday, the most important issue regarding this story will be whether or not the ancient Babylonians were white men.

    For the record, Stormfront says, "Bet your ass they were". When asked for comment, Donald Trump said that if elected president, he'll make sure the US has "the classiest calculus of any country."

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:We might as well break the new management in. by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 2

      Babylonian religion predates Judaism and Islam by a long time, they worshiped lots of gods, lots of statues, a good deal of it adapted from Sumerians.

      Well, it sure didn't take long for this discovery to spark a war over priority. I guess "The Babylonians ripped off proto-calculus from the Sumerians" is the new "Leibniz was actually using calculus years before Newton."

    2. Re:We might as well break the new management in. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      There's a good reason that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are called "Abrahamic" religions.

      Abraham (Abram) had a son by a concubine (Hagar). That son was named Ishmael. The Arabs claim ancestry back to him. He also had a son by his wife (Sarai/Sarah). That son was named Isaac. The Jews claim ancestry back to him. Jesus (Christ) was a Jew.

      Abraham was from "Ur of the Chaldeans", also known as Uruk. The name hasn't changed. That place is still called Iraq. (Say both of those names out loud if you don't "get it".) Specifically, the city of Ur was in the southern part of the Euphrates basin, right about where it curves east and runs to the Persian Gulf.

      Babylon was much farther to the north and a little east, where the Euphrates and Tigris run closest to each other. You can still see where Babylon was on Google Maps. It's immediately north west of Al-Iqsandariya (Alexandria), Iraq. It's a scorch mark, basically. Nothing grows there, nothing lives there. There was a prophecy issued about that in the 800's BC. (Isaiah 13:20, specifically.) Interestingly, it holds true despite many attempts to make use of that portion of land. Make of that what you will.

    3. Re:We might as well break the new management in. by Hylandr · · Score: 3, Funny

      They brought us Goezer and the StayPuft Marshmellow man.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    4. Re:We might as well break the new management in. by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 3, Informative

      Disinformation....

      Looks pretty lush actually.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  2. Archimedes had calculus by DanDD · · Score: 2

    Archimeded in the first century AD may have built upon Babylonian and Egyptian mathto create true calculus.

    --
    "Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." - H. G. Wells
    1. Re:Archimedes had calculus by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's like saying the Vikings discovered North America.

      Wait, the Vikings discovered it and settled it.

      They didn't go around telling people they'd invented it, but they sure as hell 'discovered' it and navigated back and forth.

      The entire point is Europeans, after many hundreds of years rooting around in the muck like ignorant morons, rediscovered many things which had been known in antiquity ... and then proceeded to pretend like the barbarians who came before them were far too unsophisticated to have known this stuff.

      And increasingly that view of history written to soothe the egos of those Europeans and their descendants is proven to be largely rubbish, which has nothing to do with reality.

      And I say this as a white guy of European ancestry -- what we call history is really mostly "the history as told by white people who had no clue about what was really happening before they got their heads out of their asses".

      While Europe rooted around in the muck and the filth, they forgot that things like math, navigation, and indoor plumbing had been around for a very long time. And then they pretended like they invented them.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Archimedes had calculus by jbeaupre · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It was more than that, and he did have an inkling of the use. But he treated it as academic. In college, we had to study his technique for integrating the area under a curve. Specifically, the area of a spiral. And he got it right. We even applied it to other geometry with success.

      What made it painful was that it was done without algebra or even the symbol pi. Think long wordy descriptions involving limits and ratios and you end up with 3 pages of text for what takes half a line in modern notation. Heck, even his result takes a couple lines to write.

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    3. Re:Archimedes had calculus by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your narrative claims some form of racism but even your own example has nothing to do with race

      No, my narrative hasn't got a fucking thing to do with racism.

      After the Dark Ages, where the Church basically did their best to wipe out human knowledge and sanitize everything ... then the descendants of those damned people went about "discovering" everything they had long since forgotten.

      The point isn't white, brown, pink or yellow skin ... it's about morons obliterating knowledge and history for their own purposes and then being too clueless to realize they'd just "discovered" things which had been known before.

      Self inflicted ignorance isn't some noble thing to hold up for all to see.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:Archimedes had calculus by epine · · Score: 2

      Furthermore, SMS service was a bit spotty back then, so let's just assume that whatever Archimedes accomplished, he mostly accomplished ab initio.

      Furthermore again, calculus isn't really calculus without the notion of continuous functions over an algebraic coordinate system.

      Merely inscribing exterior and interior polygons around a circle and then amping up the edge count is obviously a pretty good place to start, but Newton or Leibniz it sure the heck wasn't.

    5. Re:Archimedes had calculus by PPH · · Score: 2

      Cite where the church wiped out any knowledge.

      Here's an example. Perhaps not intentionally. But the attitude of "Screw this science stuff. We need the parchment for a prayer book." eradicated a lot of earlier knowledge. Not until King Ferdinand of Spain figured out that all the stuff the Moors had collected in their libraries might actually be important, the Churches attitude toward knowledge was pretty much indifference.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    6. Re:Archimedes had calculus by erapert · · Score: 4, Informative

      After the Dark Ages, where the Church basically did their best to wipe out human knowledge and sanitize everything...

      I was under the impression that it was rather the opposite. In reality the "dark ages" were neither literally nor figuratively dark. The name was given by Italians who were butthurt about not ruling the world anymore.

      It also seems that Christianity (Catholic monks in particular) was responsible for preserving western culture, civilization, and knowledge during the "dark ages" not destroying it.

      Even a gutter press site like Cracked seems to disagree with you on this matter.

      Contrariwise, there's a lot of evidence that certain modern, "scientific", and atheistic governments have destroyed and censored knowledge (I've linked only a few obvious and famous examples but there are others).

    7. Re:Archimedes had calculus by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No. What the church brought was stagnation and illiteracy. Anyone caught translating the bible was burned at the stake.

      Another myth. (Note -- before I go on, I'm NOT Catholic, and I have no interest in defending the Catholic Church. But I do think we have a moral duty to accurate history.)

      The Catholic Church punished people who translated the Bible AND threatened heresy/schism, etc. Yes, there were some incidents in medieval Europe where translators were punished, but that was because they were associated with political movements against the church. If you wanted to translate the Bible AND lead an insurrection, sure they might kill you.

      On the other hand, there are plenty of examples where portions or the entirety of the Bible were translated in the years 1000-1500, and the Church didn't do anything to the translators. It only became a significant controversy after the whole Luther thing and the Counter-Reformation.

      By the way, I don't mean this to be argumentative or even that you should have known this. Errors in scholarship have a long life, and there were some influential studies done on this stuff based on incomplete evidence and erroneous interpretations of medieval documents in the early 1900s. That's why this myth endures.

      But it's a myth nonetheless.

      And illiteracy was just a consequence of lack of utility. Parchment was expensive -- how many animals did you have to kill and skin to make a book? So, why would literacy be common until paper became cheap in the 1400s (due to a sudden excess of scrap linen that could be pulped)?

      Preserving the bad ideas of the Greeks may or may not have been a good thing. We might have been better off flushing the whole thing and starting over completely from scratch.

      Well, that's all very debatable. Arguably the major medieval renaissance in knowledge was in part driven by reclaiming the knowledge of the ancients, which in turn led to what most people think of as the real "Renaissance," which in turn led to Humanistic enterprises that were no longer dominated by the Church, which led to the Scientific Revolution.

      That's only one way of telling the story, of course. But there's some truth to it.

      The real problem was not being able to challenge bogus crap for 1000 years.

      You really have no idea what medieval Scholasticism was about, then, do you? Medieval universities were largely started by priests and monks. Debates were the norm. Empiricism and logical argument were combined into a new method. Challenging accepted facts was commonplace. In fact, some historians of science actually argue that the reason why the West had a "Scientific Revolution" and other places (e.g., China, the Arab world) didn't was because of the accepted level of scholarly debate that occurred in the West compared to other areas of the world... which didn't have the same kinds of debates.

    8. Re:Archimedes had calculus by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2

      It also seems that Christianity (Catholic monks in particular) was responsible for preserving western culture, civilization, and knowledge

      Yes, preserving...in part by burning to death people who suggested advancing that knowledge.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    9. Re:Archimedes had calculus by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Math doesn't require infinities. Or infinitesimals. They are only there because they make calculation easier. There were a lot of arguments about this back in the early days of the calculus, and the people in favor in infinites won only for two reasons:
      1) God is infinite and unbounded, and
      2) It makes calculation easier.

      While agree with the second point, this doesn't imply accepting it as anything other than a calculational convenience.

      In a way this is sort of like boolean logic. It's a great tool, but one never knows with 100% certainty that something is either true or false. Probability theory is a more accurate statement, but harder to calculate with. And finite probability theory is, I believe, and even better model. Unfortunately, it's also harder to calculate with.

      Similarly, Relativity gives more accurate orbital predictions than Newton's laws, but NASA uses Newton, because the calculation is easier. Ease of calculation is frequently the deciding factor, but the underlying model should understand the inherent uncertainty in the measurements, and acknowledge that we don't have infinite precision. (And I believe that the universe doesn't contain infinite precision, but *that* is a belief, not a fact.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  3. Modern arithmetic not up to Babylonian standards? by haruchai · · Score: 2

    How does "several centuries BCE" plus 1400 years = 14th century??

    --
    Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  4. Re:Modern arithmetic not up to Babylonian standard by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Informative

    Because the youngest end of their date range is less than 100 years BCE, and off-by-one is close-enough. Likely it 200 years older, but that isn't certain. 350 to 50 BCE is the range given.

  5. Not surprising by rasmusbr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Civilizations tend to "discover" philosophy, mathematics, literature, drama and great works of music in the centuries after they invent ways of writing those things down.

    What's probably going on is that these things have been cropping up intermittently for thousands of years (or tens of thousands of years), but the ideas would usually not survive for very long because it would take unreasonable amounts of human effort to remember and transmit them.

    By the way, video finally made it possible to commit dancing to permanent media in the early 1900's, so future historians will probably think of the 1900's and 2000's as the centuries when great dancing was first invented.

    1. Re:Not surprising by rasmusbr · · Score: 2

      How do you have "advanced" mathematics ( or perhaps a better term might be "non-trivial" ) without at least a rudimentary writing system?

      You can't. You can do a lot of basic arithmetic and basic geometry.

      But you could for example come up with the hypothesis that stars are faraway suns, just by noticing that different stars vary in brightness and guessing that the brighter ones are closer to Earth, with the Sun being much closer than all the others. You could argue that spherical objects are more efficient than other objects because they minimise both their surface area and the distance of any surface feature to the center of themselves for a given volume, then pose the hypothesis that the universe likes to be efficient about things and then conclude that the Earth is therefore probably spherical, like the Moon and the Sun.

      It does take writing and some instruments to prove beyond all doubt that these things are true, but the ideas themselves could have been dreamt up by the same people who painted lions on cave walls 30,000 years ago.

  6. Re:The concept of limit is simple by HiThere · · Score: 2

    The concept of limit is not only not simple, I believe it to be false. It's a very useful theoretical concept, as is the real number line, but I do not believe that it has any actual existence in the world outside of mathematics. Just because you can't look at something close enough to see where it dissolves into pieces doesn't mean that it's actually continuous. This is why Xeno's paradoxes were so annoying. Most of them rely simplicity on the assumption of continuity, which is intuitive, but false. (Some of them have more complex failing, however. Achilles and the Tortoise also relies on the sums of infinite series being not being finite.) But Cantor's solution was not the way the universe solves the problems.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  7. Re:Modern arithmetic not up to Babylonian standard by belthize · · Score: 2

    On a related note how does 1st and 2nd century BC count as "Ancient Babylon". That was toward the end of the Hellenistic period of what was barely left of Babylon. Ancient Babylon by archaeological standards (to avoid conflating it with any number of other empires that just happened to share the same geographical area) had ended some 1000 years before. In fact the article suggests that the 2nd century BC tablets were actually copies handed down from as far back as actual ancient Babylonian mathematical texts in or around 1700 BC. Which is quite a bit more interesting.

    So what they really mean is Persian mathematicians during the Hellenistic period in the area that was known as ancient Babylon and now modern Iraq, but I guess that doesn't have the same ring.

  8. Well, so did the Greeks, around 500 BCE. by hey! · · Score: 2

    How do you think they figured out the formula for the volume of a sphere? Or proved that the area of a circle was proportional to the square of its radius when it's impossible to construct a square of the same area in a finite number of steps with ruler-and-compass methods? The same techniques were rediscovered in China around the 3rd century CE, again as a result of trying to calculate the area of a circle.

    I think the basic ideas behind integral calculus are pretty much inevitable when you have mathematicians messing with geometry problems that can only be solved with successive approximations -- although inevitable only because eventually someone really smart will get bored with doing things the long way.

    What's distinctive about modern calculus is it's connections to analytic geometry and algebra (algebra with good notation, I might add). This allows us to generalize problems in a way that transcends geometric resemblance, e.g., the area under the curve of any polynomial.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:Well, so did the Greeks, around 500 BCE. by hey! · · Score: 2

      That the area of a circle was other than such-and-so.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  9. Area of a trapezoid by colinrichardday · · Score: 2

    The article mentions trapezoids. Did the Babylonians approximate curved regions with trapezoids, or did they just use trapezoids? Finding the area of a trapezoid doesn't require calculus.

  10. Re:Modern Hubris by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2
    I recently read an interesting book on this subject written in the early 1900's about this exact matter: The Decline of the West by German historian and mathematician Oswald Spengler. According to him, there have been about 7 recorded civilizations prior to Western Civilization; that history is not a linear progression to some higher goal, but rather a cyclical phenomena with each going through well defined stages and an overall period of ~1000 years.

    At the least, it's a new perspective about how history progresses and attempts to describe the development of the arts and mathematics based on the sole defining purpose of the culture that brings it about. The later stages are when cultures develop into civilizations at which point the defining purpose has run its course and dies. I guess at the most, it's an eerily accurate prediction and description of the world today (written 100 years ago). According to him, the defining purpose western civ is based on Norse culture's search for the infinite which it can never reach. Calculus is an example as are shared cultural myths (Arthurian legend and search for the Holy Grail).