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NAND Flash Density Surpasses HDDs', But Price Is Still a Sticking Point (computerworld.com)

Lucas123 writes: With the introduction of 3D or stacked NAND flash memory, non-volatile memory has for the first time surpassed that of hard disk drives in density. This year, Micron revealed it had demonstrated areal densities in its laboratories of up to 2.77 terabits per square inch (Tbpsi) for its 3D NAND. That compares with the densest HDDs of about 1.3Tbpsi. While NAND flash may have surpassed hard drives in density, it doesn't mean the medium has reached price parity with HDDs — nor will it anytime soon. One roadblock to price parity is the cost of revamping existing or building new 3D NAND fabrication plant, which far exceeds that of hard drive manufacturing facilities, according to market research firm Coughlin Associates. HDD makers are also preparing to launch even denser products using technologies such as heat assisted magnetic recording.

29 of 185 comments (clear)

  1. Density is nice, but what about longevity? by kheldan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Have SSD's reached a point where they have a lifespan comparable to HDD's in the most extreme applications, though? For instance: Just had to replace the HDD in my DVR. It's dual tuner so it's buffering 30 minutes for each channel, perpetually. The HDD lasted for years; would a current-technology SSD last as long before it ran out of write cycles in the flash memory?

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    1. Re:Density is nice, but what about longevity? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

      Samsung Evo 840 is rated for a 28-year life span at 10GB of data write per day. That's about 100TB written. According to some tests, the 840 starts experiencing sector relocations (bad NAND) around 100TB; somewhere about 9 times that, it suddenly fails without warning.

      If you're constantly buffering HD video at 11GB/hr, that should give you 378 days to 100TB and maybe 9 years to sudden catastrophic failure.

    2. Re:Density is nice, but what about longevity? by dnaumov · · Score: 2

      At the speeds a DVR would actually use to write things to the drive, modern SSDs will outlast HDDs by a pretty large margin.

    3. Re:Density is nice, but what about longevity? by CastrTroy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think that the problem can be easily worked around by better designing the DVRs. Put 16 GB of RAM in there and buffer to that. You only need to write it out to the hard disk when you actually want to be recording a show. 16 GB should be enough for buffering the HD streams and allowing you to rewind shows as you're watching them.

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    4. Re:Density is nice, but what about longevity? by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 5, Informative

      OTA channels = 19.38 Mbps (max)
      2 channels = 38.76 Mbps = 4.845 MB/sec
      1 Terabyte SSD = 1,000,000 MB
      1,000,000 / 4.845 = 206,398 seconds, or 2.3 days
      Nand flash write cycle life : 10,000

      Total life 10,000 * 2.3 days = 23,000 days or 65 years

      If you don't like the assumptions, feel free to make your own, but I think it's clear that write cycle life isn't going to be the limiting factor.

    5. Re:Density is nice, but what about longevity? by LordKronos · · Score: 4, Informative

      The largest recording I've ever seen off of cable TV is about 8GB/hr. I know OTA broadcasts can be slightly bigger, so lets say 10GB/hr. To record that 24/7 requires about 87 TB/year.

      There was a long term test of SSDs done here:
      http://techreport.com/review/2...

      Many of the drives ended up getting close to 1 PB of writes, and the best even got over 2PB. Thats enough for you to run 2 tuners 24/7 for a decade. And note, their tests were with 250GB drives. As you increase SSD capacity, longevity increases almost linearly. If you were building a DVR, you'd probably want something like a 1TB drive.

      As far as the original question of whether the SSD can outlive HDD in the most extreme application....probably at the most extreme, no. But for the vast majority of cases, including a DVR, most likely yes.

    6. Re:Density is nice, but what about longevity? by nneonneo · · Score: 5, Informative

      Let's work it out. A few years ago, TechReport ran an SSD endurance experiment to figure out how much punishment current-gen SSDs could take before failing. Their test setup essentially involved writing random data at maximum speed for 18 months straight. The results indicated that the worst SSD in their bunch, a Intel's 335 Series, wrote about 700 TB before dying, and the best SSD, a Samsung 840 Pro SSD, went on to 2.4 PB.

      Various estimates say you can put between 60-75 hours of HD content on a 500GB drive, so, assuming the largest possible size, that works out to about 8.3 GB/hour. Since you're writing two streams, that's 16.6 GB/hour, or 145 TB per year. For the worst drive in the bunch, that's about 4.8 years of service (right at the upper end of your HDD's service life); for the best drive, it's over 16 years.

      Keep in mind that these tests were all run on 250GB drives. Smaller drives have less flash to work with, and have to write over the same flash cells more often. Therefore, if you bought a 1TB drive, you can expect the lifetime to be easily 4x better (more if you're using a more recent drive, such as the Samsung 850 Pro) - 64 years of DVR recording should be more than sufficient.

    7. Re:Density is nice, but what about longevity? by KingMotley · · Score: 2

      Sure. That'll be ~$300. I can burn that.

    8. Re:Density is nice, but what about longevity? by Mike_EE_U_of_I · · Score: 2

      SSD lives in an actual experiment are in this article:

      http://techreport.com/review/2...

      The drive that did the worst failed at the 728TB written mark. These were 250 GB drives, so I would expect 1 TB drives to be able to sustain approximately four times the write volume. The means we should expect failure at about the 3.5 Petabyte mark. Two video streams should pretty much never exceed 10GB/hour. 3.5 PB/10GB =350,000 hours. That's about 40 years.

        Yeah, I think SSDs are OK for DVRs.

  2. Flash won already by jones_supa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you look at a list of new computers, you will notice that a surprisingly large amount of PCs are already shipping with 128 GB or 256 GB SSD. That's gonna hold everything that most people need. People with bit more specialized needs (hardcore gaming, media production, virtual machines, etc.) can probably soon acquire 1 TB SSD for a price like $200. Only massive data centers will remain as users of HDDs. Flash memory companies are putting huge investments in developing the technology further, while HAMR is still a prototype in skunkworks that is struggling to be usable for mass production.

    1. Re: Flash won already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We'll probably have dual discs for a while. My OS is on a small SSD but my music, photos, and videos are all on a separate 1 TB HDD since the speed difference doesn't matter.

    2. Re:Flash won already by Kjella · · Score: 2

      People with bit more specialized needs (hardcore gaming, media production, virtual machines, etc.) can probably soon acquire 1 TB SSD for a price like $200.

      And you can get an 8TB Seagate Archive HDD for $223 at newegg today, if you need/want to store lots of data it's still cheaper by far. The real issue from the manufacturer's side is that nobody will pay a premium for anything. You get a SSD for all things performance and the cheapest, slowest HDD because for streaming huge media files you just have to be fast enough, they're mostly accessed linearly and even a video server for a big family only serves a handful of video streams at once. And a lot of people are streaming more or doing download & delete, to be honest I hardly ever get around to watching most things again. Every so often I just go cleaning up a few TB of stuff that was just collecting dust.

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    3. Re:Flash won already by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      I have an old iPhone 4 with 64GB storage and an old iPad 2 with 64GB storage.
      So if both are backed up on my 256GB SSD MacBook Air, half of my storage is gone. Exagerating, yes. (But my iPhone indeed is full with about 59GB).

      When an empty Word document is sized in the MBs and and increasing pixel x pixel sizes of cameras/photos are the norm, I would not consider 256GB lot of memory.

      Now with HD movies, no idea how big they really are, but I doubt you get more than 20 on a 256GB laptop.

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    4. Re:Flash won already by Nemyst · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The thing that might dislodge NAND is Intel/Micron's new 3D Xpoint, which is supposedly much faster, allows for bit-level writes and is just as durable if not more so than NAND. It's also supposed to be available shortly.

    5. Re:Flash won already by Voyager529 · · Score: 2

      If you look at a list of new computers, you will notice that a surprisingly large amount of PCs are already shipping with 128 GB or 256 GB SSD. That's gonna hold everything that most people need.

      Well, that's a bit difficult to generalize, which is a challenge that computer manufacturer's are having a bit more difficulty addressing. 128GB is fine for a browser/office suite computer, but with the OS taking 20-30GB of that (depending on OS/version/swap file size/hibernation file size), 128GB gets pretty cramped, pretty quickly, if a moderately sized iTunes library is involved. Moreover, phone backups / picture sync for images that are 10MP and higher will eat up that 128GB fairly quickly.

      256GB is about the sweet spot for most laptop users, but it's surprisingly frequent that 256GB being enough space is largely contingent upon "data living somewhere else" - be it Teh Cloud (tm), a server share, a NAS of some kind, or an external drive. The ability to stream Netflix and Spotify and at least some iTunes content is definitely helpful, but anemic internal storage is only viable because "data living external to the device itself" has become a way of life for most of those users.

    6. Re: Flash won already by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2

      Until SSDs are less than 50% more expensive than spinning disks, spinning disks will still have a place. Fast enough for large backups, large enough to hold multiple backups, no need to spend a premium on those for performance. They will die out eventually, but it will be a few years out still before I'd start saying they're going to be dead. However for anything under 2TB you can pretty much write the obit.

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  3. Re:Price Is Still Just One of Two Sticking Points by ShooterNeo · · Score: 4, Informative

    That isn't how wear leveling algorithm work. Yes, once you hit 99%, every write does involve a rewrite somewhere, but those writes are not concentrated in the 1% free area. Instead, the drive controller is reading sections of already written disk and moving them around.

  4. Units by Nemyst · · Score: 3, Informative

    That's 4.294 Gb/mm^2 and 2.02 Gb/mm^2, respectively, for us SI folks.

  5. Re:Depends on your data by ledow · · Score: 2

    But the fact that SSD has caught up HDD quite so quickly means the writing is on the wall.

    Quite what is the factor that will keep people buying HDD? At the moment, it's only capacity. With matching densities, matching capacities won't be far off. I've said for the last few years the storage companies should give up on making HDDs or at least plan that way.

    You can get a 1Tb 2.5" SSD for a decent price now. And desktop ranges are easily catered for with SSDs and even being supplied by default. The max size hard drive you would really see? It's only 2-4Tb. I don't think it will be "several years", given that you can match capacities now (just by putting multiple 2.5 boards into a 3.5" drive), and the price per Tb is dropping fast, while HDDs are offering nothing over SSDs any more.

    Sure, the top-end brand-names will be behind everyone else as they ensure reliability, but it will only be a couple of years before people are basically ignoring HDDs in purchasing.

  6. Re:Stop! by sims+2 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I don't like the idea of someone trying to fix my HDD with a HAMR.

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  7. Re:Price Is Still Just One of Two Sticking Points by Solandri · · Score: 2, Informative

    Oh, while we are at it, SSD tend to fail spectacularly: i.e. usually when they perish you cannot extract any information at all vs. spinning platters which usually fail gradually.

    Most newer SSDs are designed to fail gracefully. When they die, they become a read-only device. All your data is still accessible. Many USB flash drives are designed to fail the same way - if you've ever had a USB flash drive mysteriously become "write-protected", it probably died and set itself to read-only mode. Unfortunately, Samsung seems to be one of the SSD manufacturers which hasn't yet adopted this philosophy for failure. But I can understand their reasoning because...

    P.S. If you wanna counter my first argument, fill your SSD up to 99% and then try to work with it continuously for quite some time. That 1% will get overwritten multiple times and your whole SSD will be prone to a failure.

    That problem was solved in the 2000s with wear-leveling algorithms. Basically, the "sectors" the SSD presents to the computer aren't actual physical locations. They're virtual locations stored in a table. If the SSD senses certain blocks being used too much or other blocks sitting unused, it moves the data around behind the scenes so that writes hit all flash memory cells about equally. It updates the virtual table every time it does this, to fool the computer into thinking the drive is physically the same as it has always been.

    The rated endurance on most consumer SSDs is around 2000-3000 cycles. For a 250 GB SSD, that means you can write 625 terabytes to it before expecting a failure. If you write 100 GB of data to the drive every day, you can expect it to last nearly 20 years. In torture tests, most SSDs have lasted about 2-3x longer than their rating. And no, the first cell failure is not catastrophic. Pretty much all SSDs have a number of reserve cells sitting on the sidelines to take over for cells which fail early.

    If your duty cycle is higher than 100 GB/day, they make special enterprise SSDs rated for 10k-100k writes per cell. The price is correspondingly higher of course, primarily due to using SLC (one bit stored per cell) instead of MLC (2 bits) or TLC (3 bits).

    Limited number of writes were more of a problem in the early days of SSDs when they were like 32 GB in size. In that case, the exact same characteristics as the above 250 GB SSD would yield only 2.2 years of longevity. But the problem has pretty much become a non-factor as capacities have increased.

  8. Re:Price Is Still Just One of Two Sticking Points by Nemyst · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Fill up your SSD to 99% and it usually has between 20 and 40% free space to work with (more for enterprise drives, less for cheap drives). Oh wait, you've never heard of over-provisioning?

  9. Re:Price Is Still Just One of Two Sticking Points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Hint: every SSD has *at least* 6% extra space for wear leveling - 1TB drives are internally 1024TiB.

    P.S. If you wanna counter my first argument, fill your SSD up to 99% and then try to work with it continuously for quite some time. That 1% will get overwritten multiple times and your whole SSD will be prone to a failure.

    P.S. Bullshit

    SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 1
    Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
        9 Power_On_Hours 0x0032 094 094 000 Old_age Always - 28138
    177 Wear_Leveling_Count 0x0013 097 097 000 Pre-fail Always - 98
    241 Total_LBAs_Written 0x0032 099 099 000 Old_age Always - 9528109928

    That's a 100% full 128GB Samsung 830 - there's a headerless dm-crypt volume on it, so from the point of view of the drive every single user visible block contains data.
    4.87TB written and it's at 98/3000 erase cycles, a WA factor of about 2.76.
    Considering that's after 3 years of continuous operation, at this rate it should hit the rated erase count in ... 100 years or so.

  10. Re:Price Is Still Just One of Two Sticking Points by The-Ixian · · Score: 2

    Yeah, I had an OCZ Vertex II that I sent back at least 3 times for replacement. It gave me such a bad impression of SSDs that I didn't get another one for a long time.

    My current Samsung SSDs, however, have been running flawlessly for 3 years now.

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  11. 90% less with (cheaper) TLC NAND by raymorris · · Score: 2

    It should be noted that while SLC flash is good for around 100,000 writes or so, TLC flash is only good for around 1,000. MLC is in in-between, about 30,000 writes. So the type of flash used in the drive very much matters.

  12. Re:Depends on your data by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

    Even Capacity is going to go this year, with expected 16 TB SSD drives coming to market. The only thing Spinning drives have at this point is Price. And if price is all you care about, then go Cheap! For everything else, go SSD>

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  13. Re:Price Is Still Just One of Two Sticking Points by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

    Some swapping of live data occurs, but having extra slack free space to move around in helps the algorithm better work within those constraints. In fact, Samsung provides a utility called Magician to manage Over Provisioning for extended life. It's not required, but ostensibly it does help.

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  14. Price Parity - Market Factors by ytene · · Score: 2

    The OP rather implies that a supplier offering both convetional HDDs and SSDs of the same capacity would offer their products at prices based upon "cost of manufacture + margin" - i.e. that the retail prices would be a reflection of production costs. Sadly for consumers, this is blatantly not the case. The evidence for this is *everywhere* - for example a BluRay Movie costs no more to make, ship and sell than a DVD [maybe less, the packaging is smaller, lighter and cheaper to ship] and yet BluRay discs cost significantly more. Another classic example is the motor trade, where 2 cars that are identical in every respect except the engine size are priced so that the one with the larger engine costs more. Going back to the storage industry, there may be at least a couple of legitimate reasons for the price differential : first, the vendor is still recouping research and development costs from SSD technologies, whilst HDDs may be investing much less in R&D and therefore cost less. Second, economies of scale mean that a vendor can spread overheads across greater sale volumes and thus one format costs less. Unfortunately, what is most likely to be happening is that vendors are "fixing" market prices and using the principle of "cool new thing" to charge a premium for the latest product, well beyond what legitimate development costs would suggest. In theory many countries have national agencies to stop markets conspiring to fix prices like this. There is legislation against this [it's essentially racketeering and/or market manipulation, after all]. Unfortunately, 99% of the time, large suppliers get away with it. It's only when something goes unexpectedly wrong [look at the LIBOR rate-rigging scandal in the UK] that regulators will act [because it puts them in a position where they have no choice but to act]. Unfortunately, for the rest of us, for most of the time, a price is set on the basis of "the maximum we can get away with", as determined by the vendor.

  15. Re:Price Is Still Just One of Two Sticking Points by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

    Yes, the SSD does have a separate tracking algorithm to manage dynamic LBA mapping to cells for wear-leveling. And yes, and abrupt power outage can corrupt and brick the drive. The OCZ Vertex series have a history of this happening where it can't decrypt (internal) and mount the value due to said corruption. Newer SSDs such as the prosumer and enterprise variety include extra capacitance to ensure half-writes don't occur and thus recover from both a firmware and OS journaling file system error.

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