Pentagon Research Could Make 'Brain Modem' A Reality (thedailybeast.com)

schwit1 writes: The Pentagon is attempting what was, until recently, an impossible technological feat -- developing a high-bandwidth neural interface that would allow people to beam data from their minds to external devices and back. That's right -- a brain modem. One that could allow a soldier to, for example, control a drone with his mind. On Feb. 8, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) -- the US military's fringe-science wing -- announced the first successful tests, on animal subjects, of a tiny sensor that travels through blood vessels, lodges in the brain and records neural activity. The so-called "stentrode," a combination stent and electrode, is the size of a paperclip and flexible. The tiny, injectable machine -- the invention of neurologist Tom Oxley and his team at the University of Melbourne in Australia -- could help researchers solve one of the most vexing problems with the brain modem: how to insert a transmitter into the brain without also drilling a hole in the user's head, a risky procedure under any circumstances.

Comments

Oh sure

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I'm positive that an interface directly into your brain could never be abused, hacked, or compromised.

Re:Oh sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Your point? Every new tech can be abused. It is a universal truth, there are no exceptions. Further this is no reason at all to reject the tech, but rather to invest in defensive measures.

Feel free to reject this tech. You and your descendants will wind up living in zoos or wildlife preserves, while the rest of us journey to new cognitive frontiers, self-actualizing in an existence that you can barely imagine.

 

Re:Oh sure

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Your point?

If you don't see my point, explaining it probably won't make it any clearer.

Yes, you can hack my phone. But I can turn my phone off or get a new one.

-

while the rest of us journey to new cognitive frontiers, self-actualizing in an existence that you can barely imagine.

Yes, I'm sure that will be happening any moment now. Will you be able to pay for all that self-actualization in bitcoin?

Re: Oh sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Invest in defensive measures? Is that still even a thing? It will be cheaper to pay the fine than to prevent hackers from reaching someone's brain.

Re: Oh sure

[Anonymous Coward]

The new drug? No need to abuse the body with alcohol or drugs just turn receptors on and off and boom high on a whim or shot in the arm no need for morphine

Re:Oh sure

[ColdWetDog]

"With DARPA funding beginning four years ago, Oxley and his team tested the stentrode on sheep ... "

Interesting choice of testing subject.

Just say'in....

Re:Oh sure

[Anonymous Coward]

So, your point about potential abuse was obvious. Outright, plain-as-day obvious. You may as well point out that this was just a news article.

My point (though, admittedly, I expressed it in a roundabout and snarky way rather than directly) is that fear of tech is harmful, and that resistance to tech is futile.

Technological advances like this are the new mechanism of human evolution. While natural selection (in the classical sense) is obviously still in effect, changes in the technological landscape are driving a re-definition of humanity at a much faster pace.

Some people are content with the way things are, and don't want change to come. Despite their best efforts, change will come, and all their resistance will accomplish is the creation of friction.

Human brains will go online. If it is possible, it is inevitable, because there is far too much profit in it. Yes, there are risks, and yes, we need to do something about those risks, but simply rejecting the technology is only an option in the very-short term.

Re: Oh sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, defensive measures are still a thing. No, it will not be cheaper to pay off hackers than to defend against them. If this tech leaves brains wide-open to any hacker who wanders by, nobody will adopt it (and anyone who does will be immediately impoverished and enslaved). It would be ridiculous, in fact.

So, expect every variety of defense to arrive along with the tech. Some super-awesome hackers will still be able to breach the defenses, and new defenses will be devised, just like happens today. The particulars will vary, but a largely-sustainable model where people use this tech in relative safety will eventually be rolled out. And when that happens, the world will be amazing.

See also: Ghost in the Shell

Re:Oh sure

[ortholattice]

Indeed, the abuse possibilities of a direct brain interface are illustrated in the episode of Black Mirror called White Christmas, which I think is a marvelous piece of science fiction. It can be found on Youtube between periodic DCMA takedowns by BBC, and maybe on Netflix.

Re:Oh sure

[LifesABeach]

is the modem bi-directional? i was thinking of netflicks.

Re:Oh sure

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

admittedly, I expressed it in a roundabout and snarky way rather than directly

Yeah, you did.

is that fear of tech is harmful, and that resistance to tech is futile.

I'm neither afraid of tech, nor resisting it. I've embraced technology all my life, and helped advance it considerably by enabling researchers to use some of the most advanced tools on the planet.

I've helped heart research, helped integrated circuit fabs make better, smaller, faster chips, helped material science researchers develop new processes, contributed to biosciences around the globe, helped other scientists in nuclear research, and plenty of other stuff. For example, if you have a heart stent (or ever need one), you can thank me, yes, me to some small degree. I've helped cancer researchers and pharmaceutical companies to develop better drugs and treatments.

I helped create safer airbags back in the 80s and 90s. I helped Intel and AMD and Motorola and Fairchild make better, cheaper ICs. I helped LLL and Westinghouse Hanford and GE Vallecitos work with all sorts of radiological processes. I helped Lockheed and Boeing and Northrop Grumman make better aircraft and better radar emitters. I've helped universities all over the US do research into pollution and environmental effects. And plenty more beside those things as well.

I'm no longer in the role of directly supporting research scientists, but trust me, I did my part and then some for 20+ years.

-

Human brains will go online.

And I'm all for it. I'd love to have a brain interface that could adjust my vision, hearing, body temp, etc etc etc. I'd love to have the kind of neural implants that are described in books like The Diamond Age. I'd love to have uploadable memory. I'd love to have all that stuff.

At the same time, I'm not unaware of the dangers that it would bring, both personally and in a larger sense some of which are also described in books like The Diamond Age. Just because I comment on it or point out potential downsides doesn't mean I'm against it. On the contrary, it means I'm thinking ahead.

And unless you'd be happy with the same level of "security" and rampant hacking that has been the hallmark of the connected age (IoT devices, anyone?) that might be applied to your brain, you'd be a fool not to think about it to.

Re:Oh sure

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Indeed, the abuse possibilities of a direct brain interface are illustrated in the episode of Black Mirror called White Christmas, which I think is a marvelous piece of science fiction.

I liked Black Mirror, I wish they had made more episodes.

Check out The Diamond Age for some of the upsides and downsides to neural wetware. Lots of benefits, but also lots of potential horrors and abuses.

Re:Oh sure

[Anonymous Coward]

self-actualizing in an existence that you can barely imagine.

obvious troll is obvious.

Re:Oh sure

[ClickOnThis]

is the modem bi-directional? i was thinking of netflicks.

Really? I was thinking of Internet Rule 34.

Re: Oh sure

[GrantRobertson]

Resistance is futile.

FTFY

Re:Oh sure

[gweihir]

By definition, if the government does it, it is not hacking, abuse or a compromise. It is not torture, murder or criminal in any form either. And if they leave backdoors wide open for others to exploit, this is, of course, entirely the fault of said others and the government cannot be held responsible.

Re:Oh sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, sure. Lets assume this is real and exists. Now suppose it isn't entirely new and those influenza vaccines we've all been getting for years contain these mind control devices. If that were the case how could w-ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!

Re:Oh sure

[RavenLrD20k]

I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf mutes I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend i was one of those deaf-mutes I thought wha---

Re:Oh sure

[Anonymous Coward]

Having PENTAGON doing it is ALREADY a Crowding Out Effect. Those guys must know very well...

Re:Oh sure

[tehcyder]

You and your descendants will wind up living in zoos or wildlife preserves, while the rest of us journey to new cognitive frontiers, self-actualizing in an existence that you can barely imagine.

Someone's been drinking the Ray Kurzweil Kool Aid.

Re:Oh sure

[tehcyder]

I'm positive that an interface directly into your brain could never be abused, hacked, or compromised.

I'm more worried about the casual way they talked about injecting something the size of a paperclip into a vein.

Re:Oh sure

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I'm more worried about the casual way they talked about injecting something the size of a paperclip into a vein.

Some veins are large enough to handle this. Catheters are often routed through veins and some of them are about the diameter of the wire used in a paper clip.

But still....yeah, it doesn't sound all that attractive.

Re:Oh sure

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd love to have a brain interface that could adjust my vision, hearing, body temp, etc etc etc.

It takes more work than getting an implant, but you can do all that through self-hypnosis.

transmitter in the brain

[QuietLagoon]

... how to insert a transmitter into the brain without also drilling a hole in the user's head, a risky procedure under any circumstances....

And sending a possible clog-producing paper-clip-sized transmitter into the brain via the blood vessels is not a risky procedure?

Re:transmitter in the brain

[Applehu Akbar]

The article describes some general safeguards on the process, but no specifics on how to control exactly where the device goes. Or is the idea to worm a catheter right to the site of implantation before sending the stentrode through it?

Current "brain control" tech involves using electroencephalography to read electrical emissions of the brain so that, through feedback training, the patient can make willable and repeatable patterns of such electrical activity to do things like move a cursor on a screen and "click on" something where desired. Can't we get a sensor close enough to the brain in some way that does not involve the circulatory system?

Re:transmitter in the brain

[eyenot]

Also, the article does nothing to explain how the injected implant will pass the blood-brain barrier. So I must assume the thing will be injected directly into the brain's mass. Is that not crude or what? And how is that even a feasible scientific experiment, given how much damage is done to the brain in the process of introducing discontinuities into the tissues with a hypo?

Re:transmitter in the brain

[Anonymous Coward]

The "stentrode" is essentially a conductive stent which is installed with a catheter.

Once they add ultrasonic mesh networking to this device: they'll be able to wire up the entire brain with dozens of localized channels on a long term basis. This same technology is already being used to enable sensor arrays to be installed in muscle tissue for use in controlling prosthetic limbs:

http://neural.iit.edu/research/imes/
http://www.smpp.northwestern.edu/downloads/Troyk%20P%20IMES%20An%20Implantable%20Myoelectric%20Sensor.pdf

The significance of this is obvious: given a 4G LTE modem and a human child, we can log every byte of neural activity as a child learns to talk, walk, read, and recognize objects all to cloud storage through Amazon AWS. By strapping this same child with a "3rd eye" camera, pupil tracking software, and a microphone: we can store every moment of the child's life from cradle to grave in a giant Hadoop database and create the perfect supervised learning database for deep learning/neuroscience research.

Naturally this project should be called: TARZAN

It takes the "open loop" currently available of hashtags and social media context and gives a direct measurement of image and audio data as the child learns. It would be an ethical question as to what extent their sense of touch, taste, and smell should be suppressed to improve the signal to noise ratio.

This has the potential to create the "leap forward" advance in neuromorphic engineering. Right as the chip fab technology is becoming available to model the correct number of synapses and neurons: we'll have a database capable of supervised training this artificial brain. With multiple children: and a controlled environment(virtual reality goggles and headphones) we'll be able to correlate between the different subjects common trends in synaptic formation and use this information to guide the artificial network's backpropogation. In 30 years: it would be affordable for every child to record their life experiences with similar or better hardware, and to train their own artificial brain in parallel to their own neural development. I'm talking immortality in a very "Cylon" sense of the word.

Eventually: the imaging technology/DSP required to record every firing of every synapse in 3D will be possible, and it will be equally possible to model these synapses digitally. These "soulless" mirror images of ourselves will wake up and think they are the real "you" who just woke up from a dream.

Re:transmitter in the brain

[eyenot]

I wholeheartedly agree: there's nothing that such an "implant" could do that a little scalp implant or thin, removable helmet could not. People seem to not have a grasp on the measurable electromagnetic power of the brain's output.

The only reason I can see to implant something like this directly into the brain is so that its removal becomes either impossible or an undesirable decision. Even an EEG trode under the scalp can be dug out in extenuating circumstances; a bluetooth-enabled (or whatever) helmet is even easier to do away with. But removing something lodged in your brain tissue at a moment's notice given a combat knife and some tampons is not a valid response.

Re: transmitter in the brain

[techabuse]

The BBB is a barrier between the blood vessels and the brain tissue that surrounds them. Well, barrier in a sort of macroscopic sense - the blood vessel walls are formed of tight junctions between cells. Small molecules like gases can pass, larger items like pathogens cannot. The electrical signals used by an implant like this would pass just fine. You do have a good point, though, if this stent scrapes up the blood brain barrier you'll have your grey matter turned to mush the next time you get an infection.

Re:transmitter in the brain

[eyenot]

That's pretty ambitious, but like many other 90's-like brain drains it has very little real science supporting it.

Re:transmitter in the brain

[Anonymous Coward]

I wholeheartedly agree: there's nothing that such an "implant" could do that a little scalp implant or thin, removable helmet could not.

You claim that, yet I've had procedures, especially MEG scans, that had to be rescheduled due to there being a lightning storm ~50 km away and the setup being enclosed in a 40 cm thick vault of magnetic and conductor shielding. It is one thing to point to what rough region a signal is coming from or to look at the over all brainwave that involves synchronization between many cells within the brain. But to pick up localized signals and separate them from other local signals is a whole different story.

People seem to not have a grasp on the measurable electromagnetic power of the brain's output.

I can agree with this at least...

Re:transmitter in the brain

[Antique Geekmeister]

It's shoved up an artery into the brain, and is not in direct contact with neural tissue. It's inside the blood vessel, _adjacent_ to neural tissue. I'm fascinated by the stunning risks of infection if the leads to the device are left entering a blood vessel to the brain, and the well known and well understood bandwidth limitations of implanted medical electronics if it's not.

Re:transmitter in the brain

[eyenot]

I should have assumed so much.

I thank yourself and the other commenter here pointing out the obvious; I should have considered that the device would not have to cross the blood-giving vessels around the brain in order to function.

But this does leave some serious health questions:

* how are you ever going to design an object that does not impede blood flow, as a stent-form or otherwise

* what amazing, exotic elements is this thing shrouded in, that will both keep the tissues from responding to it and also keep from puncturing the tissue walls

Re:transmitter in the brain

[RavenLrD20k]

You claim that, yet I've had procedures, especially MEG scans, that had to be rescheduled due to there being a lightning storm ~50 km away and the setup being enclosed in a 40 cm thick vault of magnetic and conductor shielding. It is one thing to point to what rough region a signal is coming from or to look at the over all brainwave that involves synchronization between many cells within the brain. But to pick up localized signals and separate them from other local signals is a whole different story.

It wasn't long ago that cell-phones were banned from a hospital setting for fear that they might interfere with the equipment...even though there was never any evidence to support such a claim. Now those hospitals that once banned said phones are allowing it, and even requiring their staff to carry smartphones with them.

That being said, the accuracy of the readings in MEGs, CATs, EEGs, MRIs, etc are usually paramount for a radiologist to properly read and generate a report for the requesting doctor. A lightning storm is not likely to affect the readings with its EMP, especially with the proper shielding around the room. What a lightning storm 50 KM away CAN do to affect your test is knock the power out. Even if the relevant equipment (The unit itself, imaging computers, control computers...etc) is on battery backup, kicking off the power suddenly or even a sudden voltage change may very well be more of a change in the supply than the battery could effectively clean..and THAT can very well lead to an inaccuracy of readings at best...or the facility could completely lose power at worst.

As far as the output of the brain in a lightning storm used to control an interface with a computer... I've used a toy cap that was supposed to read electronic brain emissions to produce a level of neurofeedback control for a game using SmartBrain tech that I was demoing on the computer during a lightning storm (the laptop was isolated from the power line at that time with no physical network connection). The output from the game was not visibly affected at all during the storm and continued to react in accordance to my perceived inputs, even though my room is a hell of a lot less shielded from EM than the MEG room would be.

Re:transmitter in the brain

[RespekMyAthorati]

Not if you're about to become a lamb steak anyway.

US research: Killing people!

[DogDude]

Hey, thanks US government! Another potentially significant applied scientific breakthrough! I'm really glad that our government spends so much on R&D in order to kill people better. Thanks!

Re:US research: Killing people!

[Applehu Akbar]

"I'm really glad that our government spends so much on R&D in order to kill people better."

The big but is that by making a project military in some way, the government might actually be able to do it without twenty years of oppositional hearings.

Re:US research: Killing people!

[Anonymous Coward]

Does the stupid hurt much?

Re:US research: Killing people!

[Anonymous Coward]

You idiot. The reason you can even make that statement in such a blasé way is the government is as good as it is at "killing people". If and when the rest of the world catches up, we'll see how you feel about it then. Fucking moron.

Re:US research: Killing people!

[mrclevesque]

Here you go, have a cup of tea, or would you like something else instead?

Re:US research: Killing people!

[Anonymous Coward]

From the people who brought you MK Ultra.

SubjectIsSubject

[p0p0]

The so-called "stentrode," a combination stent and electrode, is the size of a paperclip and flexible. The tiny, injectable machine

What? How could something the size of a paperclip be injectable? Do they mean the diameter of the wire or the size and shape of a paperclip? I'm just having trouble picturing it because it's such a vague comparison.

Re:SubjectIsSubject

[ColdWetDog]

The paperclip analogy is probably a poor one. How about a car analogy. Think of something the size of one of those old glass cylinder fuses.

Re:SubjectIsSubject

[eyenot]

Watching television, one thing that comes up on a constant basis are advertisements for viewers to join class action lawsuits against stent manufacturers. It's endemic. But let us not let that stop us from graduating the stent straight to the brain!

"Straight to the brain!" -- bro chugging a beercan

I also ask whether this is even a "modem". What does it modulate and demodulate? The article doesn't make that clear. If we're looking for specific brain wave patterns, their existence is either on or off; you wouldn't even need so much as an analog to digital conversion to set a flip-flop circuit high based on the output of a differentiator and a few more flip-flops.

Re:SubjectIsSubject

[Ed_1024]

I looked at it too and thought the words -tiny- and -paperclip- didnt really belong together. Something paperclip sized injected into your bloodstream would probably kill you shortly afterwards...

Maybe, but it's worth looking before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't want to get a risky version or permanently install an unnecessary level of access. In addition this isn't something I intend to be a first adopter of and It will take a good reason before I get one, just because it is the "new wave of the future" or cool is not good enough.

If you/I get one choosing the right one given the risks is key, security implications are important
1. what access does the implant give(both ways)
2. is there a hard off switch, for the user? external to the user?
3. are any programmable parts in the installed part over-writeable against the internal software's wishes (could you make a permanent hack or if not you could allow forced software "implants", not good either way)
4. how is the data transmitted, and to where?
and so on...

This is only the first step, we are a long way off from a "journey to new cognitive frontiers", and such things may happen in different unforeseen ways so mind the benefit to cost comparison.

The size matters

[eyenot]

So, is it "tiny" or is it "the size of a paperclip"? Totally weird contradiction in the write-up.

Re:The size matters

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes a tiny thing the size of a paperclip that "travels through blood vessels" and then "lodges in the brain". Sounds lovely.

Re:The size matters

[eyenot]

hey, maybe the roid-raging, drugged-up super-soldiers they're injecting this into are so large that on a relative scale, their capillaries are the size of caterpillars. the hypo would be the size of a chihuahua and so the injected paperclip would be within the realms of "tiny" in comparison!

voila!

Re:The size matters

[Anonymous Coward]

their capillaries are the size of caterpillars.

Caterpillaries?

Wireheads!

[Anonymous Coward]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_%28science_fiction%29

One last question...

[theraptor05]

How do you get it back out?

Re:One last question...

[eyenot]

In another comment, I came to the same conclusion: getting it out again is the most weighty concern.

An EEG helmet could be thrown away; a scalp implant could be dug out with a knife, a folding can-opener, the butt of a gun, or a rock, etc.

A brain implant represents an impossible to remove barrier against decision-making.

I have to conclude that the idea behind the implant is to limit the available tactical decisions of the group so that they can be forced to continue HQ's strategically defined operations.

Kind of sad if you think about it. The resulting impact in terms of human suffering is somewhat worse than both sending a person into a suicide mission and also putting a soldier on an addictive regimen of enhancement drugs.

Re:One last question...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.

Re:One last question...

[ClickOnThis]

Cite your source.

Re:One last question...

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiot. I see no reason to cite a quotation famous enough that 5 seconds with google will identify it.

let me know

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me know when I can beam myself a beer from my fridge.

Re:let me know

[ClickOnThis]

Let me know when I can beam myself a beer from my fridge.

That technology exists already. Sort of.

A few implications I do and don't like

[John Jorsett]

1) It could make a difficult-to-remove tracking device
2) It could make a difficult-to-defeat-or-even-know-about recording device
a) Handy if you want to record somebody else, like a cop who stopped you
b) Not so handy if it could record you without your consent and/or knowledge
3) It might be something whose records could be subpoenaed, both civilly and criminally
4) It could be used to control weapons without objects in the hands or movement of the body
a) You could launch an attack on cops remotely while seemingly standing passively
b) Cops might shoot you just for looking like you might be about to launch an attack at them remotely while seemingly standing passively
5) If it's capable of communicating with the outside world, it would presumably be two-way. That might make it possible for a hacker to do bad things to your brain, even it it's only cause the device to overheat or discharge electricity into your head

Re:A few implications I do and don't like

[eyenot]

1) It could make a difficult-to-remove tracking device
2) It could make a difficult-to-defeat-or-even-know-about recording device

But, if you had one of these in you, at the given time you would already know if you were part of the program or not. You're more concerned with whether these would be used on unawares citizens, which kind of combined all of your points (more addressed, below) into one single point of concern.

a) Handy if you want to record somebody else, like a cop who stopped you
b) Not so handy if it could record you without your consent and/or knowledge
3) It might be something whose records could be subpoenaed, both civilly and criminally

Frankly, there's not a lot of progress being made in how to translate a few (three to four) brainwave patterns into meaningful human experience. The few brainwaves (somewhat academically arguable in their existence) that can be sensed can be sensed well outside of the human cranium, for one thing, so I'd expect a humanitarian such as yourself to be more concerned with why this thing needs to be a brain-implant to begin with.

But also, what is up to be recorded from these brain waves is akin to keeping a record of things like your emotional response at a given time, or your decision (scientifically questionable) to send a signal to make part of your body react voluntarily. This last part, signals that are sent just prior to a decision to start some physical motion, are not well defined as of yet even though they are being explored and even utilized with primates, other animals, and even humans. It's sort of like the scientists exploring this capability are going forward with what they do know and applying it to practical usages and products, without fully knowing what the hell they're relying on. And even with the more academically accepted patterns, such as those indicating angry or meditative states, aren't consistent across all individuals. It's a very rough field.

Which means it's not at all admissible in court, presently.

4) It could be used to control weapons without objects in the hands or movement of the body

If you fit the profile. But again, that's not an "issue" since that's sort of the intended use.

a) You could launch an attack on cops remotely while seemingly standing passively
b) Cops might shoot you just for looking like you might be about to launch an attack at them remotely while seemingly standing passively

The first part there, (a) is just wild imagination. The second part, (b) is more considerate. If "cops" or any other potential aggressor could get the information from your implant, they might be able to tell things like:

* whether you've registered their locations visually or are under the influence of hallucinogens
* whether you're planning a method of attack, or perhaps you're just daydreaming
* whether you've given up and are fleeing or are just passing out from blood loss
* whether you're about to (in the next few milliseconds) move a limb or finger, or if you're just thinking about eating a sandwich

There's not a lot of progress being made in taking these brain wave patterns and differentiating them at a practical level.

5) If it's capable of communicating with the outside world, it would presumably be two-way. That might make it possible for a hacker to do bad things to your brain, even it it's only cause the device to overheat or discharge electricity into your head

I doubt it would be two-way, there's nothing in the description of the device or its intended usage to suggest that it would benefit from feedback. Also, there is no scientist in the world who has any idea how to send and use such feedback in a predictable manner, whether in terms of the amplitude and focus of electromagnetic signals or in terms of how to make something that small emit that large of a signal.

Re:A few implications I do and don't like

[Anonymous Coward]

> It could make a difficult-to-defeat-or-even-know-about recording device

The stent has no internal electronics for power or storage, and no hope with the limited number of electrodes of recording data with any kind of resolution. Electrically speaking, it's also a hideously noisy electrical environment: if the electrodes are small enough to get readings from nearby neurons, they're so small that their inputs are flooded by nearby electrochemical noise in the bloodstream. There is also *no* known way to transmit raw neural signals form the brain into a reasonable set of dynamically generated audio or video recordings, There's been some fascinating MRI scanning work to try and record visual images, but it really doesn't work.

Re:A few implications I do and don't like

[david_bonn]

(6) You could torture people with such a device without leaving any (or at least very much) physical evidence.
(7) Someone will figure out how to directly stimulate the pleasure centers of the brain with such a device. That will make meth look like high school kids drinking bad beer on Saturday night.

Re:A few implications I do and don't like

[Jeremi]

(6) You could torture people with such a device without leaving any (or at least very much) physical evidence.

No real need for that; if that's your goal, you can waterboard your victims today.

(7) Someone will figure out how to directly stimulate the pleasure centers of the brain with such a device. That will make meth look like high school kids drinking bad beer on Saturday night.

On the plus side, that would probably end the drug wars. Why buy heroine from seedy guy when you're just going to need to buy more next week, when you can get this device instead and starve to death after 140 hours of continuous orgasm instead?

We already have these high bandwidth interfaces

[umafuckit]

TBH, we already have high bandwidth interfaces. You can implant electrodes and relay the signals with a cable. The problem isn't so much the interface but the recording itself. Recording from vast numbers of neurons with high resolution (i.e. single cell resolution) is just too invasive: it means inserting very large numbers of electrodes deep into the tissue. The only point of a high-bandwidth interface is to relay data from vast numbers of electrodes and any time you do that it's going to be invasive. There are tricks people are playing with now to make this less invasive (e.g. multiplexing signals so you don't need one wire per electrode) but invasiveness is still a problem and this stuff about soldiers and drones is pure SciFi.

Serious?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who honestly thinks the government doesn't have this technology. Why, that would be like a 1950's hypersonic aircraft.:)

Mind Machine Interface

[Mike610544]

The Warrior's bland acronym, MMI, obscures the true horror of this monstrosity. Its inventors promise a new era of genius, but meanwhile unscrupulous power brokers use its forcible installation to violate the sanctity of unwilling human minds. They are creating their own private army of demons.

--Commissioner Pravin Lal,
"Report on Human Rights"

Re:Mind Machine Interface

[q4Fry]

Oh, well. At least we get Copter Chassis.

It's amusing (and very cynical) that MMI allows the "diplomatic" victory.

hahaha

[strstr]

the targeted individuals have been complaining about the Pentagon using this level of technology on them for some time. implant are not new.

the Pentagon won't tell you they don't use implants in their already deployed synthetic telepathy system. they use radar, and the brain is scanned in real time generating better than FMRI maps, giving the DOD access to your thoughts and memories, communications, and commands to computers. then the system can beam in radar that alters the brain - given the brain is highly susceptible to electromagnetic influences.

the patent for this very system was filed in 1974. the capability was retro fitted into satellites and over the horizon radar by 1976. they already have the very capability they're talking about, using non invasive non implant interfaces, it's highly classified though.

get the patent and learn more at http://www.drrobertduncan.com/ - this guy Dr. Robert Duncan AB, SM, MBA, PhD worked on the project for the DOD/CIA/US DOJ/NASA/Navy/etc and has been blowing the whistle on mind control experiments and torture on civilians with it for some time. Been on TV and radio bout it, too. :)

I had the system used on me, and the cops have been using it to experiment with brain to brain surveillance/communications. It's deployed nationally, in use today, secretly on all Americans.

Re:hahaha

[jeffb (2.718)]

Sorry, but anybody seeing Dr. Duncan's name on the page will automatically trigger some of the oldest and most robust pattern matches in The System, which will respond promptly in just the way you'd expect, beaming "don't take this seriously" resonance patterns into the reader's mind.

That's definitely why everyone just chuckles and shakes their head at your post.

Re:hahaha

[eyenot]

Right-o. And, I personally helped develop the digital platform this artificial telepathic network will be reliant upon, and I actually did name it "SATAN" in version 0.9.310: it's an acronym that stands for:

Strategic
And
Tactical
Assistance
Network.

And so far it's been highly successful in over 1,270 simulations (each of which takes a few days to complete.)

The platform side of the project has a budget that stands at officially zero dollars (U.S.) though I am allowed to get whatever food and drinks I want from the cafeteria and vending machines for free. (I've put on a little weight!)

If we're successful, the SATAN network will make it so that no soldier is ever alone, or even "left behind": SATAN will ensure that even soldiers who are lying incapacitated on the battlefield can commandeer inbound ordinance assets even if they have been abandoned by their squadron. Meanwhile, they will be able to coordinate their own Drone-Assisted Rescue Mission without relying on intermediary response.

It's a brave new world!

Re:hahaha

[strstr]

why's that? like all his information checks out. it's clean. he's vetted by insiders still inside government. he's vetted by former CIA op Mark Phillips. Dr. Robert Duncan is the real deal. I personally verified his Harvard attendance including details about his thesis, computer generated holography. I have his Harvard email address. He definitely did the things he claims.

Here's the mind reading, mind altering patent, to give you a basic idea of it's principals.

The patent basically describes using phased arrays to read and alter the brain.

" ( 1 of 1 )

United States Patent 3,951,134
Malech April 20, 1976

Apparatus and method for remotely monitoring and altering brain waves

Abstract

Apparatus for and method of sensing brain waves at a position remote from a subject whereby electromagnetic signals of different frequencies are simultaneously transmitted to the brain of the subject in which the signals interfere with one another to yield a waveform which is modulated by the subject's brain waves. The interference waveform which is representative of the brain wave activity is re-transmitted by the brain to a receiver where it is demodulated and amplified. The demodulated waveform is then displayed for visual viewing and routed to a computer for further processing and analysis. The demodulated waveform also can be used to produce a compensating signal which is transmitted back to the brain to effect a desired change in electrical activity therein.

Inventors:
Malech; Robert G. (Plainview, NY)

Assignee:
Dorne & Margolin Inc. (Bohemia, NY)

Family ID:
23964813

Appl. No.:
05/494,518

Filed:
August 5, 1974

Current U.S. Class: 600/544; 600/407
Current CPC Class: A61B 5/0006 (20130101); A61B 5/0507 (20130101); A61B 5/0476 (20130101)
Current International Class: A61B 5/00 (20060101); A61B 5/0476 (20060101); A61B 005/04 ()
Field of Search: ;128/1C,1R,2.1B,2.1R,419R,422R,420,404,2R,2S,2.5R,2.5V,2.5F,2.6R ;340/248A,258A,258B,258D,229

References Cited [Referenced By]

U.S. Patent Documents

2860627 November 1958 Harden et al.
3096768 July 1963 Griffith, Jr.
3233450 February 1966 Fry
3483860 December 1969 Namerow
3495596 February 1970 Condict
3555529 January 1971 Brown et al.
3773049 November 1973 Rabichev et al.
3796208 March 1974 Bloice

Primary Examiner: Kamm; William E.
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Darby & Darby

Claims

What is claimed is:

1. Brain wave monitoring apparatus comprising

means for producing a base frequency signal,

means for producing a first signal having a frequency related to that of the base frequency and at a predetermined phase related thereto,

means for transmitting both said base frequency and said first signals to the brain of the subject being monitored,

means for receiving a second signal transmitted by the brain of the subject being monitored in response to both said base frequency and said first signals,

mixing means for producing from said base frequency signal and said received second signal a response signal having a frequency related to that of the base frequency, and

means for interpreting said response signal.

2. Apparatus as in claim 1 where said receiving means comprises

means for isolating the transmitted signals from the received second signals.

3. Apparatus as in claim 2 further comprising a band pass filter with an input connected to said isolating means and an output connected to said mixing means.

4. Apparatus as in claim 1 further comprising means for amplifying said response signal.

5. Apparatus as in claim 4 further comprising means for demodulating said amplified response signal.

6. Apparatus as in claim 5 further comprising interpreting means connected to the output of said demodulator means.

7. Apparatus according to claim 1 further comprising

means for producing an elect

Re:hahaha

[jeffb (2.718)]

Well, that settles it. If he's got a patent, then it all must be completely legit.

With regard to the text of this particular patent, I would have... a number of specific questions. Let's start with "how are you getting adequate nonlinear mixing of radio signals in meat, without cooking said meat?"

Re:hahaha

[Anonymous Coward]

As you know cellphone, Wi-Fi, TV and military radar don't cook you but do have a variety of classified non thermal effects.

Likewise MRI and CT scanners don't cook you but do harm you due to non thermal effects.

They can actually do MRI from space known as earth gauss MRI, giving them access to video motion scans of people and things through ground, walls and clothes. Another technique is called electron spin resonance.

There is another key brain reading brain altering patent that expands to include communicating thought and even doing remote treatments using remote firing devices including having the ability to make one "less depressed, less hungry, and less Alzheimer's effects." it also covers other types of none radar based BCIs including ones that work over the internet and telephone system using EEG, fMRI, spect and other techniques obvious to those familiar with the art. Communication can be two way done via satellite. The satellite itself can interface with each brain and send signals two and fro two way. Anyway in this second patent the first I liked to served as a drop in for the neural interface.

Re:hahaha

[jeffb (2.718)]

Yes, you can keep slinging garbage more quickly than I can wipe it off the screen.

No, that doesn't imbue it with actual truth.

Just to mop up a few of the largest globs here:

"As you know", most people don't have access to any classified knowledge about radiation effects, because it's, um, classified.

MRI and CT scanners bloody well can "cook you" if they're operated outside their safety envelope. Fortunately, we don't do that, and as a result their only "harm" is the expected cumulative damage from X-ray exposure (for CT) or, well, nothing at all for MRI.

You don't understand "earth gauss MRI" in any way whatsoever. It's not about imaging from space. It's about imaging things that you can't get inside a big honking superconducting magnet. The tradeoff is terribly low resolution * high noise * scan time (you can improve any one at the cost of the others). Video is right out. So is imaging from space.

As for anything involving reading, writing, or communicating thoughts -- yeah, tell me more about this model that maps actual thoughts to specific wave patterns. Because that's about twelve leaps ahead of anything that's currently being proposed in the open literature. For bonus points, talk about how a satellite, hundreds or thousands of miles away, can accurately and selectively impress a waveform across a target the size of a human brain.

I really don't know why I'm typing this, because anybody who's read this far will either realize that your claims are loony, or realize that your claims are much more exciting and fun than any mundane counter-arguments I can make. Unlike your imaginary all-controlling conspirators and their godlike technologies, I know that I'm not actually changing any minds.

"a risky procedure under any circumstances"?

[jeffb (2.718)]

Well, thank heavens placing a stent inside the brain doesn't carry any risks of its own, right?

Re: "a risky procedure under any circumstances"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Besides, holes in the head is the best part of the traditional approach!

Slight problem

[marciot]

Blood vessels are designed to carry, you know, blood. I'm not sure I want electrodes starving off the portions of my brain it is recording.

FBI Backdoor?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, I'm more concerned with the authorities having a backdoor to my brain than hackers having access to my brain. My rights have never been violated by hackers, but they're violated on a daily basis by the federal government trying to get skeleton key access to my technology. And at least I can fight back with a hacker. Fight the FBI, and you're looking at life in prison or worse.

Not applicable to fieldwork due to EMP risk.

[dsmatthews9379]

This work is not about making Borg soldiers, it is about fixing broken humans to improve their quality of life.

The author of the article is a chauvinist because this fantastic medical work is Australian, and the brain child of a civilian, http://www.findanexpert.unimel...

Where some of the funding came from for the latest round of animal test is irrelevant.

limited magination

[Provocateur]

Whoever has this fixation on drilling people's heads needs one right frickin now to unclog his imagination and do more actual research/more science.

Shadowrun Rigger

[DouglasLloydMaclaine]

https://www.google.com.au/sear...

Firefox, the movie

[dolmen.fr]

Firefox, before being known as a Mozilla product, was also a movie title. A plane controlled directly with the mind, in Russian.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt00...

Sounds way too big.

[sabbede]

"Size of a paperclip" sounds like something more than big enough to cause a stroke. How are they getting around the blockage issue?

Really?

[crackspackle]

the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) -- the US military's fringe-science wing

Fringe? I wonder if they've ever done anything else useful.

What, no jack behind the ear?

[whitroth]

On the other hand... this would be a perfect mechanism for what's happened to our hero in Neuromancer, when we first meet him, with the parts of his brain fried....

                  mark

Pentagon? TPC!

[Anonymous Coward]

Nearly fifty years ago....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2NNZdigSXg

Note that "dePatie-Freleng" who did the Animation, also did those "Bell Laboratory Science Series" institutional films distributed to schools nationwide, during the sixties. A lot of parents had no idea how funny us kids found this to be. The FBI and CIA also weren't amused.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DePatie-Freleng_Enterprises
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_President's_Analyst