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Contradictory Understandings of "Robot" Sow Confusion In US Law (medium.com)

Hallie Siegel writes: A new paper covering 60 years of robotics in American case law shows that a growing mismatch between how judges think about robots and what contemporary robots can actually do is resulting in inconsistent treatment of how robots are dealt with in the courts. Interestingly, much of this confusion comes down to the definition of the word robot; dictionaries' definitions often contradict each other. This article presents the case that lawmakers and policy makers need to work more closely with technology experts to develop a more nuanced understanding of robotics, lest new technologies overwhelm our legal systems.

13 of 100 comments (clear)

  1. More importantly... by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What I want to know is how US law views various other robot-like devices. For instance, is a giant robot that's piloted by a human considered a robot?
    What about a tele-operated robot, or a waldo?
    Likewise, is a drone considered a robot? At what degree of autonomy does it become considered one?

    1. Re:More importantly... by bws111 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Those questions are pretty much what the paper is about. One of the examples given was a marine salvage case, where a salvage team found a shipwreck that was about a mile and a half deep. It was too deep/too dangerous to dive, so they sent some autonomous subs down. Then they went to court to keep other salvagers away. The court decided that because the people were right above the wreck, and sending humans down was dangerous, the robots could stand in for the humans. The other salvagers were ordered to stay away, just like they would be if humans were diving. But it then raises the question: what if the humans had been on land? Would it still count? Tricky questions.

    2. Re:More importantly... by spacepimp · · Score: 2

      When a drone does autonomous missions (piloted by the FC and mission parameters) take off/land etc, it is technically considered a robot. I fly more robotic missions than I do drone piloting.

    3. Re:More importantly... by Pseudonymous+Powers · · Score: 5, Funny

      What I want to know is how US law views various other robot-like devices. For instance, is a giant robot that's piloted by a human considered a robot? What about a tele-operated robot, or a waldo? Likewise, is a drone considered a robot? At what degree of autonomy does it become considered one?

      The real problem is that very few law schools in this country offer a Mecha Law program worth the name. I mean, it's gotten so bad that even the University of Phoenix had to discontinue their pre-Gundamology degree track for lack of interest. At the same time, the law profession's nativist/protectionist culture combined with our insane immigration policies (specifically Japanese immigration) have combined to create a severe shortage of qualified robotech lawyers in the United States.

    4. Re:More importantly... by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Whether something is or is not a robot is really derailing the whole discussion anyway. If you fire a gun or set up a trip wire to fire the gun doesn't for the most part matter. If you set up a meat grinder that's not secure and a person gets dragged into it, whoever designed and approved that could be held liable. If you get summoned to court, calling in on a speakerphone doesn't cut it. Courts have usually dealt with all kinds of indirection, remote action and action-by-proxy before, legally speaking I doubt a robot is fundamentally different just because it's software with bits and bytes.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:More importantly... by Xest · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That sort of example strikes me as a classic case of legal overthinking of the problem though. It sounds like the case revolved around nonsense such as whether humans were present near or at the wreck, when really the only real legal question that actually needed answering was "Should first finders get first dibs on the wreck". There's no real complexity added into the mix by robots, merely legal gymnastics introduced by lawyers because they think they can try and spin their argument with a new thing - first that was "on the internet", now it's "robots". There's only a problem because people are making money from making a problem, not because there actually needs to be one from this specific change in technology.

      I've seen similar questions posed around autonomous cars and what the legal liability should be, but the rules of the road are already well established, if your autonomous car illegally drives the wrong way around the roundabout and crashes into someone then you should still legally be at fault. You may wish to try and sue the car manufacturer but that's really no different to the status quo - if you're in a car and the fucking wheel falls off making you crash into someone you're still at fault currently from an insurance perspective, but if it fell off because it was defective you make a claim against the manufacturer.

      So I think the only legal complications come from broken law and legal gymnastics, and if anything robots will force us to tidy up the law so that we don't argue "You can't dive this wreck, it's not safe!" but instead argue in court about what they really mean - "You can't dive this wreck, because we found it first!".

      Beyond that I don't really see robots needing to add much complexity to the law, they're a tool like any other and should be treated as such in law (at least until we have strong AI and concious robots enter the fray if that ever happens). Just as if you pull the trigger on a gun whilst pointing it at someone you can't say "I just pulled the trigger, it was the gun that ignited the gunpowder and launched the bullet into him so it's the gun's fault!" anymore than you can say "I know I pressed the go forward at 100mph button when he was in front of my car, but it was the robot that actually drove into him!". Levels of culpability degrade as they always have - if you explicitly told the robot to drive at someone it's murder, if you told the robot to drive 40mph in a 30mph zone and it hit someone then it's manslaughter, if the robot hit someone all by itself without it being anything to do with you and you did everything right legally then it's a tragic fucking accident that the victims family can sue the manufacturer of the faulty tool (robot) over. I don't see why the law needs to change whether the tool is, say, a runaway non-robotic tractor, or an automated robotic one.

      (Adjust my post as necessary for whatever your current local laws say for determining different levels of culpability)

    6. Re:More importantly... by Blue23 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That sort of example strikes me as a classic case of legal overthinking of the problem though. It sounds like the case revolved around nonsense such as whether humans were present near or at the wreck, when really the only real legal question that actually needed answering was "Should first finders get first dibs on the wreck".

      I think perhaps you are oversimplifying the problem. If I were to theorize 2352 potential shipwreck locations based on satellite imagery and publish it, am I the "first finder"? If I get odd sonar pings but don't follow it up am I the "first finder"?

      I believe maritime law may specifically want to grant salvage rights to the first people at the wreck, and anything else opens doors to abuse. Can anyone who actually knows it speak to this?

      --
      LITTLE GIRL: But which cookie will you eat FIRST? C. MONSTER: Me think you have misconception of cookie-eating process.
  2. The part nearly all current definitions miss... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    autonomy.

    Robots work based on stored directions, without needing direct human control. None of the current "robots" (other than those in manufacturing) are actually autonomous. The experiments in walking, yes, as the determination of "how" is done by the machine itself, not the person that directs "where" to walk.

    The others are actually "drones", being fully controlled by a human or (in some cases, an animal).

  3. Re: Please Pile On More Laws. by silentcoder · · Score: 2

    Your conclusion is false. Corporate employees are still people and have rights. Since compelling apple means compelling the people that remains a rights issue.

    You dont need abstract entities to have rights to preserve any current liberties. You need to revoke them to protect a great many individual liberties that are being steadily eroded because those entities are given all the rights of people while having none of the constraints and refusing to accept any of the responsibilities.

    At the botom of every supply chain is slavery. Old fashion whips and chains unpaid slavery. Every product from gravestones to iphones to chocolate is made from resources harvested by slaves. A situation that exists only because the end of the supply chains are non humans that get rights.

    --
    Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
  4. Robot Sow Confusion... by sacrilicious · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... is troubling. Imagine an army of robotic pigs with no clear instructions on what to do or where to go.

    --
    - First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
  5. A robot is... by sbaker · · Score: 2

    The definition I've always had in my head goes something like:

            A robot is a computer that can interact with the world using sensors and moving parts.

    Well...kinda...a radio controlled "Robot Wars" thing isn't a robot, it's a radio controlled toy - it needs autonomy...so I wouldn't call it a "Robot". On the other hand, my PC has "sensors" (the mouse and keyboard) - but it doesn't have hands, legs or wheels (unless you count the spinning hard drive) - so it's not a robot either. My home thermostat has a sensor and can open and close the ducting vents. It has a computer inside so it's a "Robot"....hmmm - not sure I like that - maybe the robot has to be able to move itself around. A robot-arm in (say) a car factory - can move the arm around, but not move bodily around the world...so it's a robot according to my original definition...but not if I change the definition to exclude my thermostat. My car isn't a robot - although it has a computer that handles a lot of the work (electronic throttle, ignition, brakes) - a 'driverless' car, however is clearly a robot in my mind. But a car is still a robot if I sit inside and tell it where to take me by typing "221B Baker Street, London" - but not if I have a steering wheel to tell it where to go, even if it has automatic lane-keeping and will stop me from rear-ending the car in front. OK - so that's fairly clear. But what about if I have to tell some hypothetical car: "Take the next left turn...go a bit faster than the speed limit please...go right at the fork in the road." - is it a robot now? Mmmmm - not sure. Maybe if I tell it to take the next turn by nudging a joystick, it's just a car with sophisticated lane-keeping and maybe if I have a speech interface to control the exact same software/behavior, it's a robot? We're in a very, very grey area there.

    So this is a hard thing to define. I think there is a continuum from the car that knows from data from your toothbrush that your teeth need polishing and automatically takes you to the dentist's office when there is a two hour gap in your schedule...down to my current car...in which the computer decides that I'll over-rev the engine if I push harder on the gas pedal and it's not going to let me do that.

    Legally, you may need to impose a hard distinction somewhere between those two extremes - but it's going to be completely arbitrary. In the end, a word like "robot" has to be consigned to the pile of words like "home" or "food" that have fuzzy definitions and shouldn't be used in a situation where a binary choice has to be made. It's not really like the word "adult" that has a specific meaning that takes effect precisely at midnight on the 18th anniversary of your birth.

    Law-makers and judges need to pass more specific legislation about the specific attributes of robots that require legal decisions.

    So, for example a ("robotic") car where the human has the ability to override the speed and direction, regardless of the road conditions, may need to be insured by the individual - but a car that decides the speed and direction for itself and always overrides the human if the conditions require it to might require to be covered under the manufacturers' insurance. Doesn't matter what you *call* it - it only matters what functions are automated.

    --
    www.sjbaker.org
  6. Here's the problem by dfn5 · · Score: 2

    They prefer the term "Artificial Person".

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    -- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
  7. The definition of "robot" is time-dependent by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A robot is a machine that can do a human's job. Over time, we cease to think of these jobs as human occupations, and thus we cease to think of the devices as robots. Consider these occupations:

    • Elevator operator
    • Washerwoman (it's old enough that I won't say "washerperson")
    • Computer (yes, that was an occupation)
    • Telephone answering service person
    • Telephone operator
    • Copyist