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Stephen Hawking and 150 Royal Society Scientists: Brexit Disaster For UK (telegraph.co.uk)
cold fjord writes: Steven Hawking, 150 fellows of the Royal Society (three Nobel laureates among them), and the Astronomer Royal, are warning that exit from the EU by the UK could be a disaster for science in the UK. An immediate issue would be restrictions on travel and how that would result in scientists from around the EU no longer coming to the UK to work. That would make the UK less competitive for new talent. It would also mean that scientists in the EU with grant money would be less likely to bring their research and grant money to the UK to perform their work. Switzerland is listed as an example of the resulting harm. The scientists make the point that freedom of travel for scientists is as important for science as free trade is for economies.
There are no "restrictions on travel" into or out of the UK, otherwise we wouldn't have hundreds of thousands of unwanted, third world invaders coming into the country every year.
Secondly, appeal to authority fallacy much? Who cares what Stephen Hawkins thinks about the real world? He is totally divorced from reality (not his fault, but it's a fact nevertheless). How many times does he have to go down a street at night, in an 'enriched' area, and worry about being mugged or raped?
Brexit is a fad. It's even a FUD. It's all about the people not feeling they're getting the benefits out of what they'd hoped EU would be. I understand UK perfectly, they're on the giving end of EU, they're the ones that have to take the fall for Europes refugees (pretty much like Sweden, but on a bigger scale) and they're the ones with the most generous benefit rules and regulations. The thing is...that's not EU's fault, that's Britain on Benefits Fault, not EU as such. Cameron is right.
UK is important, very important, unfortunately they're not treated as such per generosity, so they need to do this to set an example. I hope you follow me so far. I'm in Sweden (but born Norwegian as if it had anything to do with it)...
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
The UKs involvement in the EU should be a free trade agreement. Full stop. End of discussion.
No central control, no central laws.
Right, and free trade agreements are generally "if you do X, Y and Z then we'll trade with you under $RULES". Well contgratulations you've more or less reinvented the system you've tried to escape from, except that instead of having thins debated with the dubious openness of the EU parliament, you'll have them completely private and beholden to corporate interests like TTIP.
I mean suuuure, we don't have someone "imposing" rules on us, er... unless those are a condition of continuing to trade freely. Then we'll have the option of acquiescing or leaving, just like now.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
So balance that out with some incentives to lure talent and research to the UK.
This is not about attracting talent to UK - we are pretty good at doing that already, thanks to top level scientists like Stephen Hawking, just to mention one at random. But the EU fund a lot of very important research in UK, and a lot of cooperation in research and education would not happen, or would be significantly different outside EU.
The EU will never have the political will to get its act together and the UK similarly will not have the will to deal with the migrant crisis that will continue as long as they maintain open borders.
Won't they? I don't know what that actually means: 'getting its act together'. As far as I can see, the purpose of EU has always been primarily to create an free trade region in Europe, and to harmonise rules and regulations in order to remove barriers to trade. You may not like the Schengen are, the Euro and the rules that are agreed in EU, but I don't think you can deny that they are demonstrations of the EU working to fulfill its purpose. What I don't like about EU is that it is not ambitious enough - we should strive for a full 'European Nation', not this free-trade++ area. I don't think any country would be in danger of losing its identity - on the contrary. Just look at how Scotland and Wales are very much not England, despite being part of Great Britain for centuries. Or look at how culturally diverse the US is; being in a close, political union clearly doesn't take away regional individuality.
I am not personally all that bothered about whether we stay or leave; I'm sure we will survive if we leave, but there are so many issues facing us, which require wide, regional cooperation, and the number will only continue to grow for much of this century. I feel convinced that, like it not, we will have to choose joining an ever closer union with our neighbours at some point. If EU falls apart, then it will something else at some point. Plus, of course, the internet is an excellent tool for reaching out across national boundaries; nationalism won't last in this environment. It will be good when it disappears.
But those scientists would now have to deal with the bureaucracy of visas, which is a real PITA for day-to-day business (that affects every sector).
And yes, the UK might then be free of stupid EU regulations, but then they'd also be at risk of stupid Government regulations. The EU is the only protection citizens have against governments forcing through controversial bills - the UK's current Conservative government wanting to scrap the Human Rights Act so they can ship their bogeymen off to get tortured is one of them.
" Why should we care about their opinions more than they care about ours?" err...because without a strong science environment, you can kiss any future economic growth in a very competitive world goodbye? Don't believe me, look at the Asian countries and how much they devote to science. They get it, and you won't.
On a map of regions Britain has never invaded ... there are three tiny spots, representing around 0.001% of the surface of the planet.
Considering there is basically nobody who hasn't at some point been invaded *by* Britain (and heard it was justified by the British claim to ancestral superiority) there is basically nobody who doesn't have the right to now go live in Britain peacefully. Calling migration and refugees an "invasion" is a ridiculous hyperboly for a nation whose historical approach to those things consisted largely of showing up with lots of guns and saying "All this land and resources you people have relied on to survive for millions of years... yeah, we'll be taking that. If you shut up and play nice we will let some of you live".
That is an invasion and no nation on earth has done it better or more frequently than the British. The Roman empire was tiny compared to the what the Brits have invaded, Genghiz Kahn managed a fraction of it. Nah, this is no invasion - this is people fleeing for their lives and seeking a place they can safely raise their kids without the constant threat of them being dead tomorrow.
And if every a nation has forfeited it's right to exist by virtue of how many other nations it destroyed it's the British - so shut up and help these people and be grateful that's *all* you are being asked to do.
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