Slashdot Mirror


Ask Slashdot: How To Keep Keyfiles Secure, But Still Accessible?

New submitter castionsosa writes: With various utilities like borgbackup, NetBackup, zbackup, and others, one uses a keyfile on the client as the way to encrypt and decrypt data. Similar with PGP, GnuPG, and other OpenPGP utilities for the private keys. However, there is a balance between security (keeping the keyfile in as few places as possible) and recoverability (keeping many copies of it). Go too far one way, and one will be unable to restore after a disaster. Go far the other way, and the encryption can wind up compromised.

I have looked at a few methods. PaperBack (which allows one to print a binary file, then scan it) gives mixed results, and if there is any non-trivial misalignment, it won't retrieve. Printing a uuencoded version out is doable, but there would be issues for scanning, or worse retyping. There is obviously media storage (USB flash drive, CD-ROM), but flash isn't an archival grade medium, and optical drives are getting rarer as time goes on. Of course, stashing a keyfile in the cloud isn't a wise idea, because once one loses physical control of the medium the file is stored on, one can't be sure where it can end up, and encrypting it just means another key (be it a passphrase or another keyfile) is stored somewhere else. I settled upon having a physical folder in a few locations which contains a USB flash drive, CD-R, and a printed copy, but I'm sure there is a better way to do this.

Has anyone else run into this, either for personal recoverability of encrypted data, or for a company? Any suggestions for striking a balance between being able to access keyfiles after disasters of various sizes (ransomware, fire, tornado, hurricane) while keeping them out of the wrong hands?

167 comments

  1. printed/scanned versions are fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't know why you think that scanning things is going to be hard, OCR works very well these days, especially if you use a font like OCR-A which is intended for scanning. You can also print out a checksum of the key if you'd like as well. Or you could use some QR code variant to store the key too. Storing digital data on paper is mostly a solved problem these days.

    Then again, it doesn't sound like you actually want any solutions, you just want to rule all of them out...

    1. Re:printed/scanned versions are fine by Z00L00K · · Score: 4, Informative

      As a keyfile - use a text that is present in many copies over the internet. Only you know the actual text and length of it to be used as a key. That way you will never actually lose your key.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:printed/scanned versions are fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. A key file in the wild is only a security vulnerability if people know its the key file. Plenty of text on project gutenberg that can be used to generate keyfiles.
      Want a keyfile 1KB in size? look at the first 8192 bits that have a prime number location in a text file of hamlet or something. The 8192nd prime is 84017, so you only need a 10.5KB file to draw the bits from.
      Then it's either, they know the secret, or they try and guess it out of the ~10^2466 possible 1KB sized keyfiles.

    3. Re:printed/scanned versions are fine by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      Such text is unlikely to have high entropy.

    4. Re:printed/scanned versions are fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even less entropy once you consider that actual number of bits of entropy is closer to 2log(# of workable texts). And you can run into problems where different editions have slightly different spelling or punctuation...

    5. Re:printed/scanned versions are fine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      80s computer magazines were full of hex listings of interesting program binaries meant to be typed in by hand. They'd have a checksum per line so a software can verify you entered it correctly, and find which lines had errors. This would work together with the OCR approach - A script could not only check that the key is valid, but also report lines with errors for fixing them manually. It would seem a pretty minimal amount of effort to fix a few OCR errors this way.

    6. Re:printed/scanned versions are fine by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 5, Funny

      I have another approach, I simply never have an original or interesting thought, ever. Because of that there's nothing to keep secret, so I don't need any encryption keys.

      Oh, I'm head of programming for a major US network, in case you were curious.

  2. QR Code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    How big are these keyfiles? QR codes can encode up to 4,296 characters, and have alignment-assisting and error-correcting features built in.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QR_code

    1. Re:QR Code? by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      The first thing to bear in mind is that the keyfile doesn't have to be stored on anything more durable than whatever the backup files are on.

      Personally, if it's important, I back up to multiple media anyway on the assumption that a fire, flash flood and massive EMP/magnetic anomaly won't all be hitting me at the same time. I also copy the important stuff to fresh media occasionally. Which is why I still have files that started life on 8-inch floppy disks.

      So for me, a thumb drive for key files isn't such a bad idea.

      Now if you want to chisel QR codes with 3-inch high pixels into granite slabs and bury them under 30 feet of sand just as a precaution, I won't stop you...

    2. Re:QR Code? by bhspencer · · Score: 2

      I tried storing a key file in a QR code and my experience was that once you get above 800 characters none of the QR code parsers can reliably parse the data out of the code.

    3. Re:QR Code? by Junta · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes, I've never seen a QR code have a problem scanning in from even pretty crappy photos.

      However, I'd probably store the actual keys and encrypt them as usual, using the QR code to only store the key that decrypts the key (which can be 20 printable characters and still be damn near impossible to crack, requiring on average 20 billion millienia even if you could brute force a quadrillion guesses a second).

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    4. Re:QR Code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The first thing to bear in mind is that the keyfile doesn't have to be stored on anything more durable than whatever the backup files are on.

      If you corrupt the backup, you only lose the files in the damaged areas (depending on the type of encryption/compression you use).
      If you corrupt the key, *all* the files protected with that key are gone.

    5. Re:QR Code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How big are your keys?!

      800 characters by base36 is ~5.17 bits per character, or 4135 bits per code. If you're using a symmetric or EC cipher, you're not going to need more than 512 bits, even if you're completely paranoid.

    6. Re:QR Code? by Junta · · Score: 1

      Yes, and you can encrypt a large key (e.g. RSA keys are big) with a symmetric algorithm.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    7. Re:QR Code? by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      I back up to multiple media anyway on the assumption that a fire, flash flood and massive EMP/magnetic anomaly won't all be hitting me at the same time

      You idiot, you just told everyone your weak spot! Now anyone with access to firefighter truck equipped with a mounted flamethrower and an explosively pumped flux compression generator can delete your backups!

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
  3. Seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Join the Illuminati.

    1. Re:Seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alex, is that you?

  4. QR Codes w/wo Shamir Secret Sharing by Ronin+Developer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why not print the encrypted key as a QR Code?

    Similarly, you could use Shamir Secret Sharing with a theshold to break the key up into N shares which could be provided to people you trust. Then, your (or those you designate - include law enforcement) could recover the keys provided they have the threshold number of shares.

    Maybe when burning such info into a crystal becomes cheaper and feasible for the common person, it could be burned into one for all posterity.

    1. Re:QR Codes w/wo Shamir Secret Sharing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      QR codes would probalby work well for Curve25519 keys, but when I looked at generating QR-codes from the output of paperkey with a normal GNUPG RSA key they were way too large to be practical.

      I recommend Shamir Secret Sharing, though. Pick N friends, preferably who don't know each other that well and keep good backups, pick some K N, and hand out your shares to your friends. Offer to keep a share of their keys, too, if they want. The upside is that you only have to prove to people who know you well that you are yourself. (Something that people who aren't you would, ideally, not be so good at.)

    2. Re:QR Codes w/wo Shamir Secret Sharing by pdbogen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A variant of this would be to use shamir's secret sharing to back up shards of your key in places you trust. Back it up one share in each of ten places with 5 share threshold; 5 have to get compromised before your secrets are lost, and if you hear about one getting compromised you can rekey for the other 9.

    3. Re:QR Codes w/wo Shamir Secret Sharing by Junta · · Score: 1

      You can take any key you like, and then encrypt *that* using a smaller symmetric key, which would work nicely. Symmetric algorithms can use tiny keys and still be more secure than asymmetric, and are suitable for use in the context of protecting a key.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    4. Re:QR Codes w/wo Shamir Secret Sharing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      With respect to the lifetime of USB flash drive and CD-ROM media for key backup, your key should change more often than those items fail. That is, a typical CD-R or flash device can provide reliable storage on a shelf for about 10 years with good storage conditions.

      In six years, computing will be much more powerful and a dedicated hacker would be able to break the encryption in 3 years of brute force attack. So if you kept your key for 10 years, you may already be compromised anyway. Microsoft actually ran into this problem with Windows XP. This was evidenced by the Flame malware which was able to spread more easily because it looked like a legitimately signed Microsoft product. That is just one example (and not the only one).

      You should have key management policies that cycle your keys. The frequency of this cycling depends upon your own risk analysis. You may cycle the keys every time an employee with access to the key leaves, for example. You might have a policy for a maximum lifetime for the key (popular time frames are 5 years, 3 years, or 1 year). Let's Encrypt is recommending quarterly. Thus an unknown key compromise will have a finite time to take advantage of that knowledge. Combined with other defenses (such as penetrating normal network boundary defenses), an attacker may not have the time to take advantage of the key before a new one is deployed.

      With that in mind, CD or thumb drive are viable again.

    5. Re: QR Codes w/wo Shamir Secret Sharing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank goodness someone who understands crypto raised secret sharing.

    6. Re: QR Codes w/wo Shamir Secret Sharing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then they all met one day on FACEBOOK

    7. Re:QR Codes w/wo Shamir Secret Sharing by Ronin+Developer · · Score: 1

      That's the premise of a Threshold-Based Secret Sharing solution. There are multiple ways to provide a scheme where you need some X of Y shares to recover a value based on WHO is trying to recover the secret.

      The simplest is to implement a scheme where N shares are generated and M (where M is less than/equal) to N shares are required to recover a secret.

      The same secret can be split into different numbers of shares (or, even splitting a particular share into more shares that get distributed).

      Assuming that all the share holders don't meet on Facebook and collude to unlock your secret, you can comfortable distribute the shares and they need not be encrypted (they are useless without the quorum of shares).

      Of course, all it takes is one or more share recipients to encrypt the share (or have it encrypted prior to sending it to them using asymmetric encryption) and then it will require those individuals to decrypt the share before your secret can be revealed. It may be, theoretically, harder to compromise an individual AND their share repository vs just the repository.

    8. Re:QR Codes w/wo Shamir Secret Sharing by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      Back it up one share in each of ten places with 5 share threshold; 5 have to get compromised before your secrets are lost, and if you hear about one getting compromised you can rekey for the other 9.

      Or do what Tolkien did: three for the elves, seven for the dwarves, nine for mortal men, and one for yourself.

      And in the darkness, bind them.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
  5. There should be a federal registry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    There should be a federal registry for keyfiles. That way, in the event of having a warrant and needing to conduct a search, law enforcement readily has access to the keyfile. You benefit from this because there's a secure backup maintained by the government rather than a business that can change the services they provide, be sold, or cease to operate. A federal registry is a great solution to these problems.

    1. Re:There should be a federal registry by qeveren · · Score: 3, Funny

      "a secure backup maintained by the government"

      It's mean of you to make coffee shoot out of my nose like that, you know.

      --
      Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
    2. Re:There should be a federal registry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've found the easiest way to get my keyfiles into this registry is to save them to an Internet connected device, preferably an IoT device like a refrigerator or thermostat. Later, if you ever lose them, you can submit a FOIA request to the NSA and they'll send you back a (slightly darkened) printout.

    3. Re:There should be a federal registry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you really think they would throw it away??... *keyfiles... yummy... give me more..*

    4. Re:There should be a federal registry by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      It's mean of you to make coffee shoot out of my nose like that, you know.

      What are you talking about, you've been snorting coffee most of your life. You should send him a tip.

    5. Re:There should be a federal registry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assume you are trolling?

    6. Re:There should be a federal registry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I think you are making a joke, I think that is not a lot different from, for example, putting well-marked copies of the key in a safe deposit box. This is probably a "good thing" for an IT employee, since you probably don't want to take the fall for boss' bad behavior by having sole possession of the key when the search warrant arrives.

    7. Re:There should be a federal registry by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Although I understand the comment is a bit of a quip, even if you trusted the government or don't mind the government has access to it (eg the key is for a government agency), you can be sure the government won't be able to retrieve it when either you or they need it.

      This is the thing with the iPhone the FBI is trying to crack - the government did have the key and was even capable of changing the key remotely because they owned the phone but couldn't be bothered to keep track of the new key. The NSA has the same problem, they have data on trillions of phone calls but don't know how to find, sort or filter it. There was a story they even asked Google to help them.

      Interact with any government agency and they all have the same problem, my kids SSN letter got lost in the mail, even with all the evidence that we were the parents and when and where the kid was born, birth certificate etc, the office couldn't retrieve the newly generated SSN and it took them ~3 weeks for their "systems to process and synchronize" (which was already ~3m after the original SSN was sent to us)

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    8. Re:There should be a federal registry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once you get your biometric and chipped ID cards, you too can have your private key stored in the government provided datastore.

  6. Optical Disk by gurps_npc · · Score: 2

    Is the way to go.

    The fact that fewer and fewer people use them simply increases your security.

    If and when you replace your PC with a device that doesn't have an optical drive, then the last thing you do with your old PC is to copy the data from the disks to something new.

    Till then, the fading popularity of DVDs is just an added layer of security for you.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Optical Disk by RobbieCrash · · Score: 1

      Security through obscurity is the best.

      --
      Keep on knockin'
      https://robbiecrash.me
    2. Re:Optical Disk by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      Optical disks have horrible shelf life. They degrade over time. They are not suitable for important backups. Magnetic tapes OTOH can be purchased in archival quality.

      Plastics often take a long time to fully decompose, but their optical properties degrade rapidly.

      That's leaving aside the "obscurity" flamebait. ;)

    3. Re: Optical Disk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DVDs don't last very long

    4. Re:Optical Disk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      CDs with 24k gold layer (doesn't oxidize) have a lifetime up to 300 years.

      http://www.amazon.com/Memorex-min-700MB-Gold-Archival/dp/B000FITK4O/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1458241616&sr=8-4&keywords=cdr+gold

    5. Re:Optical Disk by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Assuming the plastic doesn't melt ... :-)

    6. Re:Optical Disk by Zaelath · · Score: 1

      It's as valid a layer as any other, sure as hell worked for the code talkers. But it's a layer, not a panacea.

      People often confuse "incomplete" with "worthless".

    7. Re:Optical Disk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can even go stone with M-Disc if you wanted a bit more lifetime.

    8. Re:Optical Disk by John+Bokma · · Score: 1

      I've been making images of old CDs over and the majority read without any problems (dvdisaster), even ones I burned back in the late 90's! The majority was older than a decade and of the +/-180 CDs only +/-10 had a single defective sector and 5 or 6 had multiple defective sectors. Most issues were with Sony Professional CDs (heh). Burning multiple copies on different brands of CDs good for a decade or even two, in my experience. And that's without additional error correction data (which dvdisaster can generate for you). Probably the biggest issue would be if you can still buy a reader in a decade or two.

    9. Re:Optical Disk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with optical media is that apparently sometimes you get an unlucky batch. I've had some Memorex Gold's from the naughties become partially unreadable, so you have to use parity files and/or multiple copies. I don't know what happened to them, they looked just fine, and worked just fine back then. Another downside is that optical media is low-capacity and low-datarate, meaning checking the media once every few years is a lot of work. More than it's worth, in my opinion.
      So, given that you have to check every few years, and given that you want this to be the least possible work, flash cards are probably the way to go. Their datarate is excellent and they're available in high capacities, eliminating a lot of the manual part of the job.

    10. Re:Optical Disk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming a key file is only relevant to a living natural person, a 50 year disk might do the trick. Self-burned DVDs sometimes go bad in a few years.

    11. Re:Optical Disk by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I've been making images of old CDs over and the majority read without any problems (dvdisaster), even ones I burned back in the late 90's!.

      Gosh, me too! And yet, for archival use, "the majority" is just too small a value.

      I would switch to archival tape long, long before I would start making multiple copies with different brands of disk. What an absurdity, what a time sink.

  7. Re:Best thing to do by ki4iib · · Score: 1

    Sometimes. Or, to abuse an old phrase: "It's not the hack that has your name on it you have to worry about...it's all those other ones marked 'To whom it may concern."

  8. Use a passphrase by mangobrain · · Score: 3, Informative

    Simple: require a passphrase to access the private keys, then back then up like any other file. PGP utilities allow this, and it should suffice for anything interactive.

    For anything non-interactive, it may be still be possible to use a passphrase if there is a way to load the passphrase from disk (rather then keyboard); keep the files containing passphrases as private as they keys themselves, but just recreate them if they're lost. *Something* along the line has to be committed to human memory, otherwise you fall foul to the cryptographic equivalent of the "analogue hole" (I.e. if everything needed to decrypt the data is available without human intervention, an attacker just needs that data, they don't need you).

    1. Re:Use a passphrase by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Passphrase-encrypted means unlimited-rate cracking.

    2. Re:Use a passphrase by Junta · · Score: 1

      True, though if you let your machine pick the passhprase, in python:
      base64.b64encode(os.urandom(15))

      You now have a 'passphrase' that would withstand billions of millenia of guessing by a system unbelievably beyond the fastest thing we can imagine today. Maybe you have to print that out to a few qr codes to remember, but oh well.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    3. Re:Use a passphrase by The-Ixian · · Score: 1

      This is my method.

      I think it is a good compromise. I use a 20+ character pass phrase which I keep stored in a password manager. I keep the password manager's files (I use roboform) in a separate location so they are not sync'd to the same cloud drive.

      Both the pw manager and the cloud sync use 2FA.

      It is not bulletproof but that is the nature of security tradeoffs. I am sure a government level actor could figure something out if they really wanted my data.

      --
      My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
    4. Re:Use a passphrase by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again, how is a human supposed to remember that? If you expect that to be stored somewhere, well we are right back at the beginning but with a weaker key.

    5. Re:Use a passphrase by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even when you require 2^18 rounds of bcrypt per try?

    6. Re:Use a passphrase by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

      How long would it withstand a quantum computer cracking it?

      Hint: Fast-forward 10 years for all of your assumptions.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    7. Re:Use a passphrase by John+Bokma · · Score: 1

      Much better is to use a longer pass phrase that you can remember, for example "Silly AC ate a horse staple battery on Slashdot (/.) for breakfast after a severe asthma attack!". And no, that's not the phrase to access my luggage.

    8. Re:Use a passphrase by mangobrain · · Score: 1

      As opposed to the zero attempts required to unlock a private key file which is not protected. OP is concerned about both loss and theft of their keys; if theft is a serious possibility, I fail to see how setting a passphrase will make things less secure. Also, a passphrase is not necessarily a single word; it is - as the name implies - an entire phrase, of arbitrary length, punctuation included.

    9. Re:Use a passphrase by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      A passphrase is inadequate. It's like you said, "I have a treasure chest filled with soled gold in my front yard; I should put a $2 padlock for a girl's diary on it to protect it." Yeah, I'll just pull harder on the latch; that lock will pop with just the force of my bare hands, no tools needed.

      "Better than nothing" is not a strong vote of confidence. A seat belt is apparently better than nothing in a land speed record attempt, but you're still going to disintegrate into a cloud of red dust if you hit the tiniest bump.

    10. Re:Use a passphrase by Junta · · Score: 1

      No, because quantum computing has only a doubling of effectiveness against common symmetric algorithms. Quantum computing would be a bad day for RSA encryption and elliptic curve, but the symmetric ciphers are largely apathetic.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  9. Not hard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kangaru USB. Install a liveCD distribution with the keyfile on it. Make sure the keyfile has a password and the foldser where you keep said keyfinle is a partition readable by the various OS's you expect to use. If you're really paranoid, make the livecd ecrypt the default user home directory, though you may not be able to mount this easily on another system to access the keyfile, particularly if it's not Linux.

    Now you can plug and play as needed. The Kangaru USB locks write with a hardware switch and you have a full known good boot environment if you need it. Image the USB and save it somewhere else off line if desired. [ Phones should never be considered secure if they are attached to any network at any time, unless you believe obscurity is a reasonable security measure for yourself ].

    This being said, if the computing hardware is nefarious by design nothing is going to protect your keyfile if you use it.

  10. Re:Fuck, is this really so hard? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, the guy is asking a legitimate question! It is NOT settled in any of the F500 that are among my past clients.

    YOU may decide you've solved the problem with your trivial answer and offensive title, but speaking for everyone as if you're a demigod is one of the reasons many of us only rarely contribute to /. conversations!

    (And, yes, I'm posting as AC, so I can't be abused on-line by you, and people of your ilk!)

  11. Just FYI by gizmo2199 · · Score: 1

    Keeping physical copies of keys or keyfiles makes them subject to being seized by LE upon the serving of a subpoena, at least in the U.S.

    --
    This Sig does not Exist.
    1. Re:Just FYI by gweihir · · Score: 2

      In a police-state, that is everybody.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:Just FYI by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It is relevant to those who are accused of anything. We can't use your giant media collection as criminal evidence because it's found under search for a different thing; but the discovery can go to the RIAA, who then claims you don't have proof that you ever owned any of these CDs, and thus must have acquired these files illegally. Billion dollar lawsuit.

    3. Re:Just FYI by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      but the discovery can go to the RIAA, who then claims you don't have proof that you ever owned any of these CDs, and thus must have acquired these files illegally. Billion dollar lawsuit.

      The lawsuits that the RIAA began to pursue in the age of filesharing were against people who distributed copyright files (or at least had a collection of shares in e.g. Kazaa that other people on the internet could download), as distributing is illegal. Receipt or possession of copies of music files, however, is not illegal.

    4. Re:Just FYI by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I'm so glad that I don't live in North Korea than.

      Despite everything you read, the US isn't a police state.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    5. Re:Just FYI by gweihir · · Score: 1

      The US already is a police-state at the low-intensity end. North Korea is full-blown fascism.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    6. Re:Just FYI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [citation needed]

    7. Re:Just FYI by skids · · Score: 1

      Setting aside the point of what constitutes a police state, "isn't" != "never will be" and it's the latter that matters.

    8. Re:Just FYI by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      Burden's on you (or the OP), my friend. Link to a case where the RIAA sued somewhere for mere possession of copied MP3s.

    9. Re:Just FYI by duke_cheetah2003 · · Score: 1

      Despite everything you read, the US isn't a police state.

      ....Yet. Give them a little more time. These things take time.

    10. Re:Just FYI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here Comes Donald!!

    11. Re:Just FYI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the LEOs can back up my keyfiles, and provide them back if I need them, they can have them. I use encryption at home to guard against the local meth-heads, and encryption on cloud backups to guard against shitty security on their side and top tier intruders.

      I use encryption in the enterprise the same way. If a tape falls off the back of the Iron Maiden van, c'est la vie... good luck with breaking hardware AES-256. Without encryption, that would wind up a front page story in the paper.

    12. Re:Just FYI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it if part of the key is kept in your head? Ie encrypt the full key with a passphrase and print the encrypted key.

  12. Re:Best thing to do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not the DoD? Not your bank? Not your credit card company?

    What a trivial and offensive reply from someone with no grasp of the scale of the problem!

  13. No, nobody has run into this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So keep multiple forms of the same key in as few places as you like. You know, as a 2D barcode (QR, other), using PaperBack, on a CD and on a flash key, and so on. Oh, and mind that PaperBack facilitates retyping, so you don't have to retype uu/base64/otherwise encoded stuff, if scanning either fails.

    1. Re:No, nobody has run into this by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      For those curious, I am guessing AC is refering to this:

      http://ollydbg.de/Paperbak/

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    2. Re:No, nobody has run into this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, was thinking of paperkey, as TFI is feasible with that. But PaperBack or optar may well be useful too.

    3. Re:No, nobody has run into this by ITMagic · · Score: 1

      I used to use Optar. Has the problem of 'expanding' the data to fit a full sheet of paper. I would prefer to have a compact block of known width and variable length up to a max of paper sheet length personally (but I don't have the coding skills to do this). Paperkey looks only useful for PGP keys, but not other data. Not looked at paperback - any comments on how good this is?

  14. Re: Best thing to do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Saying this isn't any better than saying "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide."

    You use encryption to protect your privacy from a US government that no longer understands what the 4th amendment is.

    As for backups, you can backup your private key with a password and throw it on a couple USB drives stored in different locations. I've printed out my encrypted RSA key. Elliptic curve keys are small enough that you can usually print them out with QR codes (even after encrypted).

    Failing figuring out how to encrypt your key for every random program, I would just throw them all in veracrypt, and then again, few different USB drives, ideally not stored in the same place. Check on them every six months or a year or so.

  15. A locked door by BradMajors · · Score: 1

    I find putting my data in a room with a locked door is pretty effective.

    1. Re:A locked door by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I find putting my data in a room with a locked door is pretty effective.

      So did one of my clients whose manager was embezzling all their money. Initially. Later, we added cameras and electronic locks, and moved all the paper ledgers to spreadsheets on a VPN.

      Also, thieves planning to steal an encryption key from a physical location might be able to open a door lock pretty easily. They might in fact have a copy of the key. I'm not convinced that is actually more secure than just having it in a desk drawer.

      For personal use, yeah. Absolutely. Nobody is going to steal my embarrassingly bad poetry or old personal emails, they would only want my money, which isn't encrypted. Work stuff? I'd at least want a fire safe. It isn't Fort Knox, but I'll probably know if somebody got it open without the key, and they can't copy the key at a normal locksmith. For a business whose core competency involves encryption? Not good enough.

  16. Two ways by vadim_t · · Score: 1

    Easy solution: Use a good passphrase, and a secure computer. Have a dedicated computer that is well protected and that you don't install random crap on. Back the key up properly.

    Harder solution: Use a smartcard, for instance a Yubikey. They allow keeping the key safely on a small USB device that fits on a keychain. The key never leaves the smartcard, and in the very worst case, a compromise still doesn't retrieve your key, it can only succeed in signing stuff while the key is physically in the computer.

    The downside is that it can take some messing around to get it to work, and that many smartcards are limited in the key size they allow, for instance the Yubikey only accepts 2048 bit keys.

    1. Re:Two ways by Average · · Score: 1

      Newer Yubikeys (Yubikey 4) allows up to 4k RSA keys, as well as some elliptic-curve keys. Mind you, smartcard-based 2048-bit RSA encryption is wildly better encryption than 99.9% of the world. Especially if you're not really thwarting the NSA, 2k is FINE.

      But in general you're absolutely right. Carrying around an easily copied keyfile is really no spectacular increase in security. Smartcards (where the decryption step happens on a completely separate micro-micro-processor, right there inside the same physical chip as the memory) is by far the best answer we've got.

      As for the question on safekeeping? The extreme paranoia method is to generate your keys on a totally airgapped (no network) old laptop and save the backup private keys in an encrypted volume. Then copy the private keys onto a smartcard/Yubikey for daily use (most smartcards allow a one-way push of a private key from PC->smartcard, but no retrieval of the private key).

    2. Re:Two ways by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Harder solution: Use a smartcard, for instance a Yubikey.

      Or a PivKey. If I recall correctly, the T800s have about 20 programmable keyslots, so there is a way to program multiple keys onto the unit.

      I suggest having at least two offsite backup units, and check each unit at least once a year.

      The harder part is having the discipline to securely update all 3 units, whenever you generate or change a key. (Never having more than 1 of the units at the same place at the same time)

    3. Re:Two ways by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      A problem with 2048 bit keys is standards. Debian for instance wants 4096 bit keys (though they do allow 2048 bit ones), so if you start just working with the command line, making a 4096 bit key is the logical choice. If then you get a device that can't handle it you have the problem of having to deal with creating a new, weaker key just for that.

      Not a fatal problem, but it's an undesirable inconvenience.

    4. Re:Two ways by pakar · · Score: 1

      Yubikey 4 supports 4096 bit keys.

  17. It won't solve the entire problem.. by iturbide · · Score: 1

    But chmod 600 is a start.

    1. Re:It won't solve the entire problem.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that plus a passphrase-protected keyfile is all you need.

    2. Re:It won't solve the entire problem.. by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1
      C:\Users\noone>chmod 600

      'chmod' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.

    3. Re:It won't solve the entire problem.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People that use Windows don't care about security anyway.

    4. Re:It won't solve the entire problem.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See that's the awesomeness of Linux, you can even have unicode escapes and line feeds in directory paths.

      But back on topic, sorry, can't help with why chmod isn't on your system. Probably hackers.

  18. One word Steganography by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography

  19. Torrent by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Upload it to torrent sites with the title "Paris Hilton Sex Tape.mpg"

    It will look like non-working garbage to most people, and no one will know it's your encryption key. Then when you need to decrypt your stuff just download it again.

    1. Re: Torrent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, because non-playable garbage is seeded forever out of the goodness of everyone's heart, fucking idiot.

  20. Re:Fuck, is this really so hard? by Striek · · Score: 3

    Mod parent up.

    Yes - USB drives are not archival quality storage. But no - they're not expensive. I have several dozen el cheapo flash drives in my desk drawer, most of which were freebies. Just back up on to a cheap storage medium multiple times. If you're so worried that a flash drive won't survive until you need it (Protip: it will, for about 10 years. Then just rewrite it and you're good for another ten years. They wear out from use, not electrical charge leakage.), then make 10 backups. I'd bet my big toe that at least one of them will survive a couple of generations. Keep one or two passphrase encrypted copies online somewhere (not necessarily cloud storage - online meaning you don't need to fetch a thumb drive for it), and you've got a good compromise. For corporate use, just use a safety deposit box with a few thumbdrives and reflash them once a year. That's simple, effective, and secure enough for most applications.

    What do I do? I keep my KeePass database (which contains many encryption keys) on a cloud storage provider. The combination of passphrase and keyfile encryption is good enough for me, and strikes the balance I need between ease of use, accessibility, and security.

    You're overanalyzing. This is a solved problem. Make multiple backups, some offline, and store them in a secure location, e.g. the parent's suggestion of a safety deposit box.

    --
    "Government is like fire; a handy servant, but a dangerous master." -- George Washington
  21. Use human power... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Memorize it. Yes, it'll take much time & effort, but ...

  22. Paper and a bank vault by gweihir · · Score: 1

    That is really your only option, unless you want to invest seriously in archival-grade tape. There used to be MOD, but nobody cared enough about their data to keep the technology alive and DVD-RAM was a poor substitute. Nothing else has good endurance.

    As to paper, print QR-codes, either with a good laser or pigmented ink. Then keep several redundant copies in a bank-vault. For convenience, you can, of course keep several different good-quality memory sticks in that vault as well, but do not depend on them and refresh them at least once a year.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  23. Some best practices by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 2

    Keep one copy in a safe in a tamper evident container. Either hardcopy or something like a read-only SD card or USB thumb drive will work. Routinely open the safe and verify that the key container hasn't been compromised.

    Distribute copies to trusted parties in tamper evident containers. You can also split the key up into multiple pieces and distribute different pieces to different people. Don't let anyone know who else has copies. You will also need to routinely visit these trusted parties and confirm that they have not tampered with the key container.

    Be sure to protect your private key with a wrapping passphrase if supported, otherwise use encrypted media. You should also specify a reasonable expiration date for your key and use the appropriate revocation mechanism, e.g. CRLs for x509 certs and revocation certificates for PGP. You shouldn't be too worried about the longevity of your storage media since you should be periodically updating your keys. I would recommend against media with photosensitive dyes and go with the more robust M-Disc based discs.

    If at all possible, do not ever let your private key touch a networked/unsecure device. Use a hardware based key manager if possible, e.g. Yubikey. Keep a separate machine booted from read-only media for the sole purpose of key creation in a secured location. You can also use this machine for encryption/decryption, but you need to transfer data via sneakernet. Definitely don't keep a WiFi card or even an audio output device in the machine. Do all of your work inside a Faraday Cage if possible.

    Read up on guidance from the various organizations. E.G. NIST's Computer Security Resource Center

  24. Get a safety deposit box from a bank, put the key there as an ASCII armored plaintext paper and as a QR code printed on paper. And remember to use quality paper and a laser printer. The only ones who could get access to the key would be robbers and government officials with warrants.

    --
    -SR
    1. Re:Stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "and government officials with warrants"

      That defeats the purpose of the encryption, though

    2. Re:Stuff by Sax+Russell+5449D29A · · Score: 1

      OP said he doesn't want the key to be encrypted because "encrypting it just means another key". This considered the aforementioned solution fits OP's requirements. I personally would encrypt my keys (even the backups), but if it's corporate data we're talking about there's no need for encryption of the backup key.

      --
      -SR
  25. Encryption is un-American by kheldan · · Score: 0

    OP, why do you hate America so much? Encryption is something used by criminals, terrorists, and pedophiles; are you one of those? Perhaps you'd better check yourself, Comrade Castionsosa. Think of the children!

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    1. Re:Encryption is un-American by kheldan · · Score: 1

      Apparently at least one person out there doesn't recognize sarcasm when they see it?

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
  26. Re:Fuck, is this really so hard? by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Congratulations, you completely missed the point. And you were an ass about it. And no, for anybody competent, this is most decidedly not a settled question, unless you spend a lot of money on it (archival-grade tape) and even there it takes constant re-evaluation and people manage to screw it up.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  27. Re:Fuck, is this really so hard? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    Well, I'm not afraid to say it next to my name; the answer was just horseshit.

    There isn't a one-size-fits-all answer. I've contracted for restaurants, and I've contracted for banks. The answer is very different depending which one it is. You can't generalize the answer from the question, you have to extend the question to include use cases or other context analysis.

    The fact he even said it makes me wonder if he even knows what things like specifications and requirements are.

  28. First Encrypt by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    Clearly step one. Encrypt them, and I assume you can store a good key somehow in a way that you have no worry of ever losing control of it.

    Then simply file for some government program where all applications are public record and attach the encrypted file to the document.

    Presto, free storage and easy retrieval. It worked for leaking Scientology Documents, it can work for you too!

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  29. For my own personal use by the_skywise · · Score: 1

    I use hints for my passwords and then keep the ID plus hint in a list on my smartphone's notes. The master list of hints to passwords is kept on my main PC at home with a printout kept in a safe in the bedroom.

    I tend to have 3 "classes" of passwords, stuff for common access which I don't care if it gets hacked, stuff for midlevel access (where I do care but I wouldn't have any actual loss if I did) and banking level type stuff.

    common stuff I had about 2 passwords I would regularly use, mid-level stuff had about 6 I would cycle through and the high -end security about a dozen passwords.

    This actually worked pretty well up until the last year or so where my password count has exploded because various accounts now enforce different rules/lengths for naming and my work recently went to separate web based hosting and bug tracking systems each requiring their own sets of passwords (and lots of both personal and work sites have started enforcing password expiration)

  30. Key Files by sexconker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Key files, certs, etc. are all convoluted versions of the same thing - a secret.

    Your question is really: "How do I keep my secrets secure?"
    The answer is, as always: "Memorize them."

    If your secrets are too complex or too numerous to memorize, you will need to write them down.
    Because you're not an idiot, you write them down encrypted, and memorize that key so you can decrypt it later. This key is your secret.

    If you're doing it correctly, you won't care where you store the encrypted secrets, because the security requirement is effectively binary. If you have security set to "on" because you used strong encryption, then you can turn accessibility to over 9000.
    Throw your password database on a public FTP and let the world have it. You'll be long dead before the encryption is cracked.

    If you're paranoid and you think usable quantum computers are really 5-10 years away, or that every encryption algorithm is flawed and backdoored, then you need to rely on hiding as well to turn security on. Put your shit on a micro SD card and hide it. Or, hide your shit by embedding it into innocuous data (digital or physical) steganographically. Or both. Or you could roll your own crypto on top of an established crypto.

    1. Re:Key Files by the_skywise · · Score: 2

      The problem is death. :)

      I keep a mnemonic around in my phone because I've got nearly 100 accounts online for various things - but I know what the password is from that and, even then, I can usually cycle through any variations to get to the one it was.

      But how do you pass that info along to family members... especially ones like mine who are not tech savvy!!!

      Paper in a lockbox!

    2. Re:Key Files by Sowelu · · Score: 2

      Memorizing a key is a pretty bad solution. I'm way more afraid of brain damage than I am of fire/flood/tornado. A large part of my old documents are stuff I should remember and not need anyway--unless I need to get my life back in order after brain damage, dementia, Alzheimer's, etc.

    3. Re:Key Files by LeadSongDog · · Score: 1

      The problem is death. :)

      I keep a mnemonic around in my phone because I've got nearly 100 accounts online for various things - but I know what the password is from that and, even then, I can usually cycle through any variations to get to the one it was.

      But how do you pass that info along to family members... especially ones like mine who are not tech savvy!!!

      Paper in a lockbox!

      Each of your heirs has to memorize and regularly recite their own personal secret passphrase in order to remain in your will. Your lawyer has a large envelope with a instructions and a set of smaller envelopes containing SD cards, one for each heir. The lawyer doesn't know what's in the outer envelope until you die, and it's no use to her without the passphrases. She can't be forced to cough it up while you live (solicitor-client priviledge). It isn't that tough, nor novel. Count on greed and the tools used by the powerful to protect themselves, they'll remain operative.

      --
      Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
    4. Re:Key Files by eionmac · · Score: 1

      "[The answer is, as always: "Memorize them."]"
      Umm! Age and mental decrepitude set in and just when you need it the memory does not work.
      In UK, it is possible to lodge a letter or document with your bank (annual cost about GBP £25 / USD $ 30) able to be retriever ONLY by yourself OR other nominee known to bank or your executors when you die. If areal use-able print off is possible (or store USB key and DVD/CD in envelope , then this is one secure route. Bank would need an authorised warrant from a court to disclose to others.

      --
      Regards Eion MacDonald
  31. Re:Fuck, is this really so hard? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not settled because F500 have more money than sense. How many contractors in IT do they have when it's clearly more efficient and better for morale to have employees in IT vs "consultants" or contractors. Yet every F500 (even F50) I've been in, are a fucking joke in IT.

    So when you say F500 like it's some fucking "we know what we're doing" argument. It's more an example of idiots not knowing what the fuck they're talking about.

    IT suffers from the "Emperor wearing no clothes" more than any other field I've worked in. My guess is you're partially naked and don't even know it.

  32. probability vs difficulty by superwiz · · Score: 1

    You can have have a few levels of difficulty to recover with each escalation based on how likely it is that the lower level has failed. Let's say the lowest level is on a piece of paper in your pocket which you can burn and destroy by mixing ashes with water (or some electronic equivalent thereof). The next level is multi-part key which requires access to a few bank accounts and destroying even one of them makes the combined key unrecoverable. The next level... entrusting multiple parts of the key to multiple people who don't know each other with different storage schemes only known to those people (and not to you)? It goes on. But at each stage, destroying a part of the key has to make the rest of the parts useless. The next stage is having each of the or mechanisms remove it from themselves in similar ways. Each escalating level increases the cost of recovery, but is less likely to be utilized.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  33. Disaster? Type it in again. by fizzup · · Score: 1

    Print it out in a readable monospace font that differentiates between 1/I and 0/O. Droid Sans Mono modified to have a zero-dot or zero-slash is pretty good. Keep it in a safe deposit box.

    When you lose lose a key, type it in twice and use a good visual differencer to make the two copies identical (and as close as possible to the printed original by using it as a guide to choose between the A/B copies). Try the key. If it fails, type in another copy and use a visual differencer to update again. Repeat until the key is good and works. It can take a few hours, but it will always work.

    As with any backup, try it out before you use the method to make sure that it works for you.

    1. Re:Disaster? Type it in again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A 4k-bit ASCII-armored private is about 8k bytes of output. A bit over half that for binary output (I just checked with gpg --export-secret-keys [-a] | wc -c). With two people (read/type) you should be able to enter that back into the computer within a couple of days with good accuracy, even if it doesn't OCR well.

      You could also split the larger key into several QR codes and print them out. Don't forget to clearly number them so you know what order to reassemble them. Other commenters here suggest that QR codes > 800-odd characters have anecdotally been difficult to produce/scan. You're only talking about 10 QR codes for the ASCII-armored key. If you're paranoid you could store the SHA512 hash of the key file as another QR code. If you're worried about theft or warrants then you probably won't store passphrase with the key and you definitely won't decrypt the secret key before you print it.

      On recovery, scan each QR code and concatenate the results into a single key file. You could even print the instructions on the page with the QR codes so you remember how to do it.

  34. Keepass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I store my keyfiles in Keepass, where I can use them with hotkeys. My keypass syncs to all my devices (and my wife's devices in case I die) and I just need to know the master key to my container database which contains the keyfile to my real database, which is in my head and nonlinguistic and nowhere else. (actually it's not even in my head - it's in my fingers' muscle memory).
    You can put the master and recovery instructions into a QR - but where are you going to hide that and protect it?
    My wife has her own key which opens here keypass database, which has the key to my personal database.
    My wife's database opens my personal, and my master database open's hers and my work databases. and yes my gaming passwords that my wife doesn't care for are in another database she doesn't care about.

    1. Re: Keepass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to have a "muscle memory" password. Then one day I inexplicably could not recall it anymore.

  35. Paper copy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How often are you going to need to scan in that paper copy? Does it really matter if it's fiddly if you are going to do it at most only one time? Scan it; if misaligned, realign. If it won't OCR, then find the questionable characters and try some different options. At worst, assuming relatively good condition for the paper, you'll spend an extra day getting your key back, and this is after a day of trying your digital copies or a week of dealing with the real problems associated with disaster recovery: food, water, shelter, medical attention, etc.

  36. Yubikey by darkain · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In my organization, we've switched over to using Yubikeys for handling our private key storage. Our primary use case is SSH keys for remote terminals and git repositories, but there is no reason why it couldn't be used for other secure encryption methods too.

    1. Re:Yubikey by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was going to suggest the same thing. I have two Yubikeys with the same two static passwords stored on them for redundancy. I use one to encrypt my hard drive and the other is for a Keepass store for all my passwords and other data.

      For extra security I have to append an extra 6 characters to the string that I have memorized, so that even if someone gets the key, they still can't access my stuff.

  37. Just use Keypass or an equivalent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Use personal and corporate Keypass files.
    have an insanely strong corporate password that you store in your personal file as well as with 1 or more trusted users
    backup your corporate keypass file on domain + cloud
    I use just use google drive for cloud
    The weak link is of course the personal files so just make sure you trust/train the whoever you give it to have really strong personal passwords as well.

  38. Qubes Split-GPG by Burz · · Score: 1

    Here is their description:

    Split GPG implements a concept similar to having a smart card with your private GPG keys, except that the role of the “smart card” plays another Qubes AppVM. This way one, not-so-trusted domain, e.g. the one where Thunderbird is running, can delegate all crypto operations, such as encryption/decryption and signing to another, more trusted, network-isolated, domain. This way the compromise of your domain where Thunderbird or another client app is running – arguably a not-so-unthinkable scenario – does not allow the attacker to automatically also steal all your keys. (We should make a rather obvious comment here that the so-often-used passphrases on private keys are pretty meaningless because the attacker can easily set up a simple backdoor which would wait until the user enters the passphrase and steal the key then.)

    The diagram below presents the big picture of Split GPG architecture.

    https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/s...

    1. Re:Qubes Split-GPG by mysidia · · Score: 1

      the so-often-used passphrases on private keys are pretty meaningless because the attacker can easily set up a simple backdoor which would wait until the user enters the passphrase and steal the key then.

      If that's true, then why bothe with a Rube Goldberg machine such as 'Split GPG', rather than just use a Smartcard type solution?

      No.... passphrases are still useful, as protection of data at rest. Without the passphrase, someone could potentially just copy the file when you're not looking or due to permissions issue, physical theft of equipment or media, or a procedural error on your part resulting in a copy of the file on discarded media -- no need to have admin access or ability to install a keylogger.

    2. Re:Qubes Split-GPG by Burz · · Score: 1

      "just copy the file when you're not looking"

      Most threats will come from the network, which means malware attacks. The malware can easily wait for you to enter your passphrase. Also note the assumption made by Qubes' threat model: kernel-based security is too complex (in fact, too Rube-Goldberg like) to prevent privilege escalations from a determined attacker. This makes the VM-based solution actually simpler and more secure than normal key use, and at least needing less specialized hardware than the smartcard.

      Of course, Split-GPG can also go beyond this level of security by using delegate keys for normal operations.

      Finally, there is the concern of side-channel attacks which can be quite effective against public key encryption. Split-GPG gives the user a pronounced "speed bump" in the UI before the key-bearing VM is even started. This gives the user a chance to shut down VMs they consider to be especially risky.

    3. Re:Qubes Split-GPG by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Most threats will come from the network, which means malware attacks.

      The fact that 'most threats will come from the network'; does not necessarily mean that this is always your highest risk.

      Malware is a risk, but it's not the only risk.

      First you have to figure what your GPG key is protecting, how persistent and intelligent the attacker is, and what the benefits are for someone compromising it in the first place.

      It's true, that some random malware flying around could infect your machine, but what are they going to do with your GPG key?

      If you just use it to sign an occasional e-mail, and your key is not trusted to sign a version of some software, then not very much is the answer.... there is not a lot of value in compromising your GPG key.

      Actually, I have yet to hear of any malware stealing GPG keys and doing anything meaningful with them. So i'm going to say your suggested post-compromise abuse by malware is plausible but theoretical.

      If it's a targeted attack, when malware would take specific actions to do with GPG, then why couldn't I target Qubes' hypervisor itself? Spawn some arbitrary code into the host node.... then seek out the disk image files, until I find ones that look like they have a bootsector, and infect those as well...

    4. Re:Qubes Split-GPG by Burz · · Score: 1

      Most threats will come from the network, which means malware attacks.

      The fact that 'most threats will come from the network'; does not necessarily mean that this is always your highest risk.

      That's why physical security is important, too. (See Qubes anti-evil-maid, USBVM, etc.)

      Actually, I have yet to hear of any malware stealing GPG keys and doing anything meaningful with them.
      So i'm going to say your suggested post-compromise abuse by malware is plausible but theoretical.

      Not so theoretical...
      https://motherboard.vice.com/r...
      http://www.theverge.com/2015/2...

      They even seem willing to steal a vendor's SIM keys in order to steal an individual's PGP key. You can say they don't seem to be doing anything with stolen keys, but decryption has no obvious effects.

      They could also use stolen keys to launch _targetted_ attacks, such as signing backdoored code that is inserted into an update MITM fashion.

      If it's a targeted attack, when malware would take specific actions to do with GPG, then why couldn't I target Qubes' hypervisor itself? Spawn some arbitrary code into the host node.... then seek out the disk image files, until I find ones that look like they have a bootsector, and infect those as well...

      The point of Qubes is that its isolation mechanisms are simple and strong, and usual channels for vm breakouts are sealed off. The hypervisor in this case is baremetal Xen, at just over 1MB in size and is what runs Amazon EC2. Most hypervisors were designed for administrative convenience (and run on top of a traditional OS), whereas security has been a top priority with Xen. The exploits logged against it are a fraction of what Linux gets and even then they are overwhelmingly DoS. So 'just use a vm breakout attack' is kind of specious. If the community feels they need to strengthen security, they can focus on that tiny bit of code instead of having to wrestle with the unbelievable mess of kernel-based architecture.

  39. Security through antiquity by grilled-cheese · · Score: 1

    Pull your Jazz/Super floppy/5.25"/Zip drive out of the closet, make copies, and put them in different physical (preferably geographic) areas. Security through antiquity. A software raid array of floppy drives is actually kind of funny.

    1. Re:Security through antiquity by buck-yar · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Stripe it to 100 floppy disks. Then place the floppy disks in different parts of the world. Make retrieving each disk like a scene out of Mission Impossible.

  40. Ancestor of QRCode by Brewmeister · · Score: 1

    QRCode just isn't secure enough... The ideal backup format would be Cauzin Softstrip.

    You would also have to write the software to read/write the strips, unless you have your Apple II handy.

  41. Wait, how big are these keys? by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    I presume you have your single, digital version on a USB device or other machine-readable, portable format which you keep in your possession. How big is the key? Is it less than 8000 characters? Print two copies out on acid free paper and put them in two safety deposit boxes in banks in different cities - one local, and one remote. In the local SDB, also place a digitally readable version on a USB key.

    In order to lose your key, you would need to have a physical disaster which simultaneously destroys two separate physical structures beyond recovery at the same time your personal key is lost or destroyed. If your key fails or is destroyed, you have a backup key which you can copy quickly from the local SDB from which to make a spare. If that key is bad, or if the local branch is destroyed in the cataclysm while your personal key is gone, you still have a paper copy which you can enter by hand. An 8000 character key should be enterable in under 2 hours, even with careful entry. And, lets be honest, what is 2 hours - or even 4 - if you're talking about the security of your data. And, no I'm not being sarcastic - you can travel to a remote SDB 100 miles away, retrieve the key (which can be photocopied locally and then redeposited), return to your office, enter the key and decrypt your data in less than one working day. Expand that to 400 miles and it's still retrievable in a long day by car (and who hasn't worked a 16 hour IT day before) and you're looking at avoiding nearly every natural or man made disaster in modern history.

    This method is slightly inconvenient, but not excessively so, and yet *very* robust in terms of privacy, security, and retrievability.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  42. Re:Best thing to do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really? How strange. And here I was under the belief that companies like Google or Facebook mine our data, government agencies (FBI, NSA, GCHQ, etc) steal our data, and hackers constantly break into every company they can to get copies of our private details.

    I'm sure the countless news stories on the subject were just lies though. You're right. Nobody is interested in that stuff! Why should we bother to put a lock on our door when the burglars only come once a week?

  43. One word: Bioprinter by mysidia · · Score: 1

    Encode your secret keys as DNA sequences, then print them out, multiply them on a petri dish, and have them sent out for cryo storage.

    They'll last a lot longer than flash media, and there will be much internal redundancy.

    You could also make a 3-Way mirror'd ZFS pool of USB sticks, and set NCOPIES to like 100000, before writing the keys to disk and sending them out to storage.... repeat again for each of at least 3 offsite locations, so have at least 3 USB sticks per storage vault, and work out how many years before you need to refresh them all.

    1. Re:One word: Bioprinter by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Encode your secret keys as DNA sequences, then print them out, multiply them on a petri dish, and have them sent out for cryo storage.

      Sorry, it seems your backup has developed cancer.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    2. Re:One word: Bioprinter by MrNiceguy_KS · · Score: 1

      Encode your secret keys as DNA sequences, then print them out, multiply them on a petri dish, and have them sent out for cryo storage.

      Sorry, it seems your backup has developed cancer.

      Sorry, it seems your backup has evolved sentience and has eaten three lab techs.

      --
      Redundancy is good And also good.
  44. Just remember it, stupid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is trivial to write a simple long password-generating algorithm that can be done entirely in the head.

    No, you do not need every single character being random, there is absolutely zero difference between iam15Anusii and daj48amye3o when it comes to entropy.
    That is obviously a simple example, but here it is extremely more complex: i3am1154Anusii1. Replaced would-be-spacers with digits of Pi.

    "But Anonymous, that password sucks, look at how small it is!".
    That is where you replace that with a sentence from your favourite / most hated quote with words exchanged for words unique to you, stupid words you made up with friends when pissing around or something when you were kids and some number unique to you used as a spacer. Throw a punctuation mark in there and you just killed a universe.
    There you go, enjoy your infinitely more secure password than anything LastPass or other silly systems can afford you.
    You can do this both for your passwords and keyfiles separately.

    Equally, take current encryption and up the bits by 10k.
    Sure, quantum computers are "5 years away" every 5 years, but they will arrive in our lifetimes in a usable form.
    They are already working to some extents in experimental setups and quantum annealing is gaining even more momentum with Google, NASA and some other companies. IT WILL HAPPEN. Sooner than you think.
    So if your shit got caught in a mass-hack, it will be decrypted at some point and you will be liable for all your weird tranny porn or whatever weird paranoid-inducing crap you have saved behind these methods.
    As they say, "save all the things, decrypt later".
    Hard drives are cheap. Flash drives are just as cheap now and can fit immense amounts of space in similar sizes of HDDs, and the largest flash memories are getting much cheaper that outpace HDD density by 10x. These agencies also have basically zero budgeting because they get any and every resources they can. It isn't all "military" spends.

  45. Two People by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    One might have a system that took two strong passwords to unlock. That way even under a court order that forces you to surrender that password the files could not be opened. That second person should have a will or legal document that would send you that password should they become unable to respond. If questioned by a judge your remark should be that you have surrendered your password and are unable to do more. How many judges or prosecutors would think to ask if there is another person with a password. And if working with a lawyer the lawyer could have another party own that second password. It might be legally impossible in the US to force a lawyer to discuss his consultations with a client.

  46. Store on Floppy by gabrieltss · · Score: 1

    I store my private keys on an Amiga 5 1/4" Floppy Disks. Lets see how many people still own Amiga's much less own a 5 1/4" floppy drive FOR and Amiga. Oh and can read a custom non-dos disk format. :)

    --
    The Truth is a Virus!!!
  47. Re:Best thing to do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Everyone has three kinds of data:
    1) Data they want to keep perpetually (eg Family photos and Vidoes) and aren't particularly concerned about others seeing it. This kind of data you simply keep in three locations, eg Facebook (as images/photos), CD/DVD/BD unencrypted so it can be read in a BD player, and a Mechanical drive that you keep the originals on.
    2) Data they want to keep out of the hands of the government, media and pirates, this data has to be in two locations, one mechanical and one solid state. Both ideally are encrypted with two different keys.
    3) Data they want to keep access to perpetually. This is where you store your data on two NAS systems. So you take the data you want in #1 and #2 and use this as one additional copy on top of all the stuff you want access to, like purchases from iTunes, GOG, Licensed materials, Video masters, and so forth. You have one local NAS at your home location, and one at your principal work location. Software on the NAS synchronize with each other, but are otherwise not accessible by other staff/employees.

    So in the end, your family pictures, porn and work materials all exist in no less than 3 places. The encrypted data exists "inside" the NAS, eg an iSCSI volume that is encrypted rather than a zip file or something. the iSCSI volume is mountable and decryption is only possible by you having the key.

    Which goes back to the topic. Where do you put these keys? I'd put half the key on a key chain flash drive that I take with me, and the other half the key on a mobile phone. So both devices must be plugged in to access the encrypted data. If you lose one of these devices (say you were robbed and someone ran off with just the cell phone) you recover the key from another source kept on one of your other sources for #1 hidden in plain sight. For example a Facebook photo can have a parts of the key steographed into certain photos. So let's say you lost one or both half of your keys, you know which photos contain the key parts to regenerate the original key.

    I'm using Facebook as an example, but there are other ways of doing this, like you could store the backup key in four parts, and put them on media that isn't readily obvious. For example, you could divide the key, laser print it onto QR codes and then put them in a photo album.

  48. Simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I decided to write down my key on a post it note. That way it's always available on my monitor, just in case.

    But really, I think I can remember "password1234" without having it written down, but I figure it's best to err on the side of caution. At least that's what the professionals say.

  49. Git by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just store it on Github so that you have access to it whenever you need it.

  50. Re:Putting a lock on your door by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

    You realize that the use case that having a locked door to your house helps is along the lines of "an optimistic but generally inept burglar comes around every so often and turns the doorknob of all the houses in your neighbourhood hoping they will come upon one where the door is not locked."

    Does that seem that likely to you? Particularly if you live in a city, where the working assumption of everyone (including burglars) is that everyone's house door is locked.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  51. It's for your own good, as you can plainly see by cstacy · · Score: 1

    Escrow the keys with your federal government. You'll soon be forced to do this soon, anyway,

  52. M-Disc (Re:Optical Disk) by John+Bokma · · Score: 1

    M-DISC's design is intended to provide greater archival media longevity.[1] Millenniata claims that properly stored M-DISC DVD recordings will last 1000 years.[2] While the exact properties of M-DISC are a trade secret,[3] the patents protecting the M-DISC technology assert that the data layer is a "glassy carbon" and that the material is substantially inert to oxidation and has a melting point between 200 and 1000 C.

    Source: Wikipedia.

    But even ordinary CDs last (mostly) for 10-20 years in my experience, see my other comment

    .

  53. Master Password by Time_Ngler · · Score: 1

    Check out Master Password:

    https://github.com/Lyndir/MasterPassword

    A single master root password that is used to derive all other passwords that you need. You can put it on an android device that isn't connected to the internet, and go from there.

    Since it's stateless, it doesn't matter if the device you use is destroyed. And as long as you remember this one password, you will be able to derive all the rest.

  54. In a file .... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ... at the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying beware of the leopard.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  55. I forgot my password by bigtreeman · · Score: 1

    Generally when traveling use password recovery and prefer a different medium like phone, but usually email.
    recover, change, don't keep it stored.
    generally doesn't take long,
    that's how I got into slashdot now
    when your (nearly) 60 your allowed to have a random memory

    --
    Go well
  56. Simple by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

    If you use a backup utility other than copy+paste to an external drive or a backup script you wrote yourself (or by extension one your company wrote) it is already insecure. Data is too valuable to be treated by anyone getting a pittance for a backup utility as private. Don't even consider the cloud or network based backups outside your own intranet.

  57. Re:Putting a lock on your door by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You realize that the use case that having a locked door to your house helps is along the lines of "an optimistic but generally inept burglar comes around every so often and turns the doorknob of all the houses in your neighbourhood hoping they will come upon one where the door is not locked."

    Not really, no. The use case of having a locked door is to make it not trivial to break in.

    Generally inept burglars are more common than many people think. A professional burglar may well make it into my house, but a random addict looking for shit to fence probably won't.

  58. Security Through Obscurity by blavallee · · Score: 1

    While this is not the best method, it does add complexity to mix.
    Basically, do not keep a single key on your storage medium. CD-R, USB, even your HDD.

    Generate thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of keys. Making your key, a needle in the haystack.

    0000.key ~ 9999.key is easy to find, as secure as an ATM PIN. Maybe
    Depends if the encryption method raises an error when the wrong key is used.

    Of course you could leave some decoy encrypted data with your keys, too.

  59. Why not EPROM? by camperdave · · Score: 1

    Burn it onto an EPROM, or PROM, like the cartridge games of old. Those should last a piece.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  60. A trusted friend? by duke_cheetah2003 · · Score: 1

    I was a bit shocked to not see this offered by anyone... but... captain obvious chiming in... give them to a trusted friend?

  61. Tomb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    try Tomb

    https://www.dyne.org/software/tomb

  62. USB or Encrypted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2 x USB drives or encrypted (e.g TrueCrypt or a forked derivative like VeraCrypt, TCnext, CipherShed).

  63. Gnuk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See gnuk here: http://www.fsij.org/doc-gnuk/intro.html.

  64. Smart card or USB token by stefanx · · Score: 1

    Using smart cards or USB tokens such as Nitrokey are a good option too because they are supposed to be secure against physical attacks and against password brute force attacks. In fact they use PINs which restrict guesses to three-or-so tries.

    1. Re:Smart card or USB token by SJ2000 · · Score: 1

      I can't believe more people on Slashdot aren't recommending HSMs, it's somewhat sad.

    2. Re:Smart card or USB token by castionsosa · · Score: 1

      I have done that in the past, namely using Aladdin eTokens which worked well... but they required hunting down the PKCS drivers, and those were extremely hard to find.

      For security, these very nice, especially for TrueCrypt/VeraCrypt volumes, PGP Desktop keys, and such. Because they don't have a USB flash drive partition, they don't work well for NetBackup backup key storage, or keyfile storage for BorgBackup, attic, zbackup, and other utilities. The biggest advantage is the brute force resistance. Someone tries more than several times on the password on the token, the token erases the key and everything on it.

      However, my concern about those is longevity. I might have a number of tokens strewn about, but after 10-20 years, will the flash memory on those be readable? Once the electrons escape out the gates, there is no recovery.

      Another alternative I've looked at are IronKeys, which mount as USB volumes once one enters the password. Again, useful against brute forcing, but I do worry about needing a recovery file for an archive made 10-15 years ago, not having it.

  65. A Solid, Recoverable Text String by gordguide · · Score: 1

    In order to avoid the possibility of a string of text being unrecoverable in the future due to some minor change in the text you used versus the available copies (a potential issue with printed or online versions of even classic texts such as The Odyssey, Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliette, etc), use a specific version of the Bible. For example the King James Version of a Psalm; that text will always be the same, character for character, if you use a specific version (interpretation and language translation) of the Bible. There are other texts that could also be used, including similar non-Christian examples. The presence of a religious book has many advantages, including the likelihood that access to it will be made available under many circumstances, including imprisonment by hostile agents. It is also "normal" to own or demand access to such texts.

  66. Bury it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a copy of my private keys on a thumb drive sealed in plastic that I buried somewhere. I have a key combination on my system that if hit runs a wipe of the private keys on this system. I will tell you it isn't buried on my property. Good luck on finding my backup.

  67. Where's the fucking problem? by allo · · Score: 1

    Encryption: Use a tool with PGP. duplicity is fine.
    Decrytion: You have a usb key with the private key, protected by a strong password. If you need restore, you can copy the key where you need it.

  68. Best way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just use this password: m:,ksi)[gjwuFSR62zh&çx+dhkghg6V;Ijxn'||v}w~)v}JQanNY=.ASCoeE=2knq1d)7-`**l`:p|=KpYDtK&MUA^7$ print this, and use Academic Signature > Accessories > Hardened Symmetric Crypto. Make sure the cipher is "Chimera", select the file to encrypt, change the "keyword" to the password above, and send it to every possible cloud service in the planet, plus M-DISK, usb keys, dvd's, blue-rays, spining disks and every thing new that appear in the future.

    the password is just right here on the paper.... and you can put it safely inside your favourite socks: remote hacker proof.