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Volkswagen 'Dieselgate' Software Developed At Audi In 1999, Says Report (reuters.com)
An anonymous reader cites a report on Reuters: German carmaker Audi created so-called defeat devices which cut emissions in 1999, years before parent company Volkswagen used them to cheat diesel emissions tests, German newspaper Handelsblatt reported on Tuesday. VW, Europe's largest automaker, admitted in September it had manipulated the engines of around 11 million diesel cars, including its VW, Audi, Porsche, Skoda and Seat brands. Engineers at Audi developed software capable of turning off certain engine functions in 1999, but it was never used by the VW luxury division, the newspaper said in an advance release of an article due to be published on Wednesday, which cited industry and company sources. Six years later, when VW engineers at the firm's Wolfsburg headquarters were unable to bring nitrogen oxide emissions below legal thresholds, they started to install the software developed by Audi, Handelsblatt said.
German Audi just makes quality software and engineering, just like Tesla and Apple - don't buy Asian Honda!
Looks like they made a software to put the engine into test mode to test a low-emissions operating mode, then later said, "Hey, here's a firmware version that runs lower emissions!" Hilarity ensues when nobody asks what "Test Mode" means and someone just decides the API label must mean it's designed for emissions tests.
Practical impact is still just a bunch of whining. "He chewed gum in class!" and what happened? "He's not allowed to!"
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They knew exactly what they were doing. For a technical explanation of how the controller was reverse-engineered see the 32c3 conference lecture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao
If you're in a hurry you can skip the first 30 minutes, but a good engineer gets the background info.
By using the -gate suffix, you have ensured that I will not read a word you have to say. You are telling me that this problem is incapable of standing on its own merits, so you must resort to trickery to make it appear to be a bigger problem than it really is.
Why am I bothering to say this? Because my problem is with the use of -gate, not the underlying issue that you are attempting to misrepresent. I will happily listen to someone else saying the exact same things as you, so long as they refrain from referring to this as a -gate incident. But if the only people who are refusing to call it a -gate incident are Volkswagon's PR people, well, I'm going to get a very skewed view of what happened, now aren't I?
Just say no to -gate. It only harms your ability to get your voice heard.
Unless you are talking about Gates McFadden of course...
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
Horsepower
Fuel Efficiency
Emissions
Choose two.
"Grab them by the pussy" -- President of the United States of America
" Six years later, when VW engineers at the firm's Wolfsburg headquarters were unable to bring nitrogen oxide emissions below legal thresholds, they started to install the software developed by Audi, Handelsblatt said."
More like:
Six years later, when VW engineers at the firm's Wolfsburg headquarters were unable to bring nitrogen oxide emissions below legal thresholds, their managers told them to install the software developed by Audi,
I dunno...I've heard some real horror stories about Audi's lower-end cars (A3, A4). I know a lawyer who lemon-lawed two TTs.
On the other hand, my low-end Audi runs like a champ with 200,000+ miles.
Seriously. Not only does it sound like an idiot wants to sound hip, it also makes no sense whatsoever. Watergate was the name of the hotel. It's not like some gate was involved altogether in the scandal.
If the whole "-gate" craze taught me one thing then that whenever journalists feel the urge to tack "-gate" to something, it usually means that the scandal is little more than hype and that it can't stand up on its own so it has to be propped up by a reference to some well known actual scandal.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Sounds like you either haven't owned a well built car or you suck at maintenance.
Audi's long-standing motto is 'Vorsprung durch Technik', which in a way is right, they used software technology to hide the hardware problems.
Disclaimer: I have an Audi diesel, but not one of the 'special' ones.
Not performing it in time or e.g. using the wrong type of oil can severely shorten the lifespan of an otherwise dependable vehicle.
A well-maintained Audi should last many hundreds of thousands of kilometres without major repairs.
Part of the problem is that Audi's service intervals are dirty lies. I have a 1997 A8 Quattro. It is meant to have a 75k interval on the timing belt. California state law said they have to last 95k, so Audi just bumped it up to 95k... without changing the belt. The ZF5HP42A transmission has no dip stick, and Audi claims you never have to change the fluid. This, of course, is a dirty lie. If you don't change the fluid then one of your pistons will stick eventually and cause catastrophic failure of the clutch A basket. A non-warranty transmission replacement is some five grand or more. They mounted the ABS controller where the connector would catch a shitload of water. When I got my car I had to clean that connector because the ABS wouldn't even scan even though the controller is actually in the cabin, not even under the hood. The positive junction (battery is in the trunk) is on the BOTTOM OF THE RIGHT FRONT FRAME RAIL, WITH A FAT GROUND WIRE RUNNING RIGHT NEXT TO IT, right at the right front suspension. This is about the most insane possible place to put it. They regularly need attention because of the placement, and also, any dickhead with a screwdriver can murder your car.
I also have a 1982 Mercedes 300SD, which has literally none of these problems. All the goodies are tucked away nicely and/or have a big plastic cover on them.
German autos went in the toilet in the 1980s, just as American cars went into the toilet in the 1970s. They are still there. Might as well buy Japanese, now. They will work just as well and last a lot longer.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Sounds like you either haven't owned a well built car or you suck at maintenance.
I own Audi's flagship from 1997, the A8 Quattro. The sticker says that as delivered (with warm and cold packages and 17" forged wheels) it MSRP'd at $69,000 even. With inflation, that's $102,374.50 in today's money. You would hope a car like that would be built to last, but it is not. They gave the transmission a lifetime service interval when it really needs a fluid change (which can only happen from the bottom with the vehicle perfectly flat and level) every 50k. The climate control foam gets sticky when the vehicle is parked in the sun and this can lead to destruction of the climate control servos... $130 each. The servos are connected to the flaps by little nylon-looking plastic widgets which appear to be designed to self-disintegrate. Broke one of them and had to replace it... can't buy it by itself. Like all modern vehicles, suspension link ball joints are pressed in and cannot be replaced, so the whole suspension arm has to be replaced. But TRW (who made the OE parts) is now making parts in China and they are garbage. Sadly, all the competing parts are also made in China, and also garbage. The rear sun screens always fail eventually, little plastic clips in them break. Someone has invented somewhat expensive aluminum replacements. The ABS pump module is mounted in a shit location where the connector can catch water. The fuel pumps fail reliably and are a motherbitch to replace. Evap systems are starting to leak now across the line. Many people have had plastic fuel tanks crack. The plastic sheath for the headrest motor cable expands over time (thermal cycling?) and pulls the cable out. You have to disassemble the seat back, remove the cable, remove its sheath, and shorten it, then reassemble... still stupid. The lumbar bladders reliably fail, too. These are Recaro seats so they're not exactly cheap parts-wise. The ignition coils (it's coil-on-plug) use intermediate drivers which fail somewhat reliably. There is a plastic pipe that carries coolant between the block and the block-mounted oil cooler, which WILL crack and spew. An aftermarket aluminum replacement is about the same price as another shitty plastic pipe from Audi.
This is a flagship, it is the best that Audi could do in 1997, and it still has numerous failures which could have been avoided with adequate design. Don't get it twisted. Cars are crap.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Changing fluids, transmission included, is a regular service for any car - or any machine for that matter. As for parts you can't replace... I hate to tell you that but that's sort of a staple of German cars. It's practically a running joke that you can buy an older M series BMW for peanuts, then have to sell an organ to get it in running order.
Look at cars like the GT86/BRZ - practically every part on that car has at least one 3rd party manufacturer replacement. In fact Toyota/Subaru literally have specification documents they released with the specifications for different parts of the car so 3rd party manufacturers could make customized parts. Same goes for the Mazda Roadster (Miata), Honda Civic, Toyota Hilux, Subaru Impreza/WRX STI, Lexus RF-C, Mitsubishi Lancer, etc. etc.. Having 3rd party parts available and long-going active communities around the car make maintenance a much more accessible task.
I've got an early model MR-S that's been treated like trash, thrown around, and generally treated poorly. I've only had to replace a few parts on it but all were purchased new out of parts catalogues almost 17 years after the car was made. And this is a car that is notorious for requiring a lot of maintenance for a Toyota. Definitely no headaches in the maintenance department for me.
If you haven't yet you should check out "Regular Car Reviews" on YouTube. It's hilarious but he also goes into a lot of history on cars, explains the reasons behind different defects and quirks, etc. No review for the older A8 but there is one for the A4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
I've got an early model MR-S that's been treated like trash, thrown around, and generally treated poorly. I've only had to replace a few parts on it but all were purchased new out of parts catalogues almost 17 years after the car was made. And this is a car that is notorious for requiring a lot of maintenance for a Toyota. Definitely no headaches in the maintenance department for me.
What annoys me about Toyotas is what annoys me about all modern cars. To save a gram or two here and there, they have taken the maintainability out of it. I can buy bushings for my suspension arms but I can't replace the ball joints and they fail just as rapidly. Toyota does the same thing; even on models with stamped suspension parts they press in the ball joints so that you can't replace them.
With that said, Japanese cars are probably the best value now. They are throwing equipment at them (a base civic has radar cruise control now!) and parts availability is superior, as you say.
I do watch RCR, he's pretty funny. I'd like to let him loose on my A8.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
So the ZF5HP42A transmission uses engine oil, which gets gummed up and causes issues with piston rings?
Are you trying to be clever, or do you not know that automatic transmissions have pistons inside of the valve body to control hydraulic fluid flow? They're solenoid actuated, and this particular transmission (which has five speeds, three planetary gears, and three disc-type clutch packs) has somewhere between 8 and 12 of them, I forget. I could look it up, but this "conversation" doesn't really warrant it. Audi calls it 01L and I have the VAG SSP on it, so I could tell you, but why?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
First of all it's a bit misleading when we are talking about software here. Technically it is, but actually it's more like a parameter set the actual software is working on. The actual software is the same for many companies and written by Bosch.
Dubious parameters have been used by other companies before. One example is BMW motorcycles.
If you want to get some information with some credibility, watch this talk:
https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-73...
Those people have reverse-engineered the software and the parameter set... and they have done actual real-life tests to verify that.
The thing is, you are not supposed to buy higher end Audis. They are to be leased for a company fleet for a few years and when a car hits about 100000 km, it is considered old and only good for selling it to East Europe.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
They are to be leased for a company fleet for a few years and when a car hits about 100000 km, it is considered old and only good for selling it to East Europe.
That's not happening any more. Now they are recycling them.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Of course it does. They are bought everywhere in Germany, put on a trailer, then they go to Rostock where the truck and trailer is put on a ferry and goes to Estonia for example. The reason why they take the ferry is that it is safer than driving through Poland.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Well, I'm talking about the USA, which is where I live. They don't export A8s from here to Europe when they get old. They squish them and turn them into new A8s, or suspension parts or something. Or soda cans.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
With all the troubles you report on the A8 I think that would make an excellent episode of RCR!
I actually had to call my mechanic anyway because a plate on my right front damper keeps coming loose and I'd rather not tighten it myself without a lift and all. He's a Subaru specialist, also does Toyota. I asked him about ball joint replacements and his response basically amounted to "for most models they wouldn't be easy to replace yourself without tools and lift, but they're not that big of a deal to replace". Granted this is a guy who worked on the Subaru world rally team so his definition of "not a big deal" is probably a bit different - but I don't get the impression they're machined into the frame in such a way as they are impossible to replace.
As for Toyota using combined and unitized parts that's just how the whole industry is going. Sure you can't just turn a wrench to tighten something up but conversely this is what has enabled electronic tuning and quite a bit of sophisticated cross component integration. It also seems like a natural evolution into electric and hybrid systems - though I'm sure you're with me when I say you'll be prying the shift knob to my mechanical transmission from my cold, dead hands.
It also seems like a natural evolution into electric and hybrid systems - though I'm sure you're with me when I say you'll be prying the shift knob to my mechanical transmission from my cold, dead hands.
Well, I sympathize, but the truth is that I've been driving luxo-barges so I've been driving slush boxes. The automatics used with the diesel in the W126 mercedes are pretty interesting, they don't shift down until you manually rev match but they have a hill sensor so you don't ever need much pedal input in normal driving, only when passing. And now I have a D2 A8 Quattro which was only offered with a 5-speed tiptronic. I don't have a tiptronic shifter because my car is a 1997 and they had to omit tiptronic to meet emissions standards, but it's on the list. I recoded the TCM to euro, which makes it hold gears for you if you blip the throttle and it downshifts, then you let off to brake — as well as disabling the dynamic shift program. Thus, the transmission is consistent once it warms up. I also had a '93 Impreza LS, which was only offered with a four-speed slush box shared (oddly enough) with the Nissan 240SX, in which it is obviously RWD. It has a manual mode activated by a button on the stick. In the Subaru, it also locks the center diff in 1st gear. My 240SX had a 5 speed manual, of course. Before that I had a V6 T-Bird with a slush box, and before that an IROC with a slush box... Before that was a 300ZX Turbo with a stick, which followed a 280ZX with a stick.
If the auto in my A8 dies, it's about the same money in parts to convert it to a six speed manual as it is to get the transmission fixed. I hope that doesn't happen, but if it does...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
That's an interesting history! Personally I'm addicted to good MT so it's hard to imagine the jump from Z's to various AT vehicles. As for the Imp it's such a broad badge it's hard for me to make any judgement. I'm honestly glad they separated the Impreza badge from the WRX STI in the newest generation.
Do yourself a favour and check out a manual BRZ the next time you have a whim to look. Customizable, maintainable, reasonably priced and intensely satisfying.
Do yourself a favour and check out a manual BRZ the next time you have a whim to look. Customizable, maintainable, reasonably priced and intensely satisfying.
How is the BRZ for a driver who is two meters tall?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Not sure actually. I'd imagine once you get in it's alright, but getting in comfortably may be an issue....