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Tesla Will Install More Energy Storage With SolarCity In 2016 Than The US Installed In 2015 (electrek.co)
An anonymous reader writes: Tesla is scheduled to install more energy storage capacity in 2016 with SolarCity alone than all of the US installed in 2015. It was revealed in a recent filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) that Tesla foresees an almost 10x increase in sales to SolarCity for behind the meter storage. [From the SEC filing: "We recognized approximately $4.9 million in revenue from SolarCity during fiscal year 2015 for sales of energy storage governed by this master supply agreement, and anticipate recognizing approximately $44.0 million in such revenues during fiscal year 2016."] This revenue projection means Tesla expects to install approximately 116 MWh of behind the meter storage. The U.S. for example installed about 76 MWh of behind the meter storage. SolarCity and Tesla Energy doubled their battery installation volume last year. What's particularly noteworthy is that the 116 MWh expectation does not include SolarCity's biggest project -- Kauai Island's coming 52 MWh system. Hawaii is aiming for 100% renewable energy by 2045 and has contracted with SolarCity to balance the two 12MW Solar Power plants with the Kauai Island Utility Cooperative (KIUC). By 2020, there will be 70 GWh of Tesla battery storage on the road, and Straubel expects there to be 10 GWh of controllable load in those cars.
Here in Murika we store our energy in dino-sludge, not costly batteries made of dangerous materials.
If the free market wanted your alternative energy storing methods, it would have already happened.
It would be interesting to see some insight regarding the scaling of current battery technology and production capacity to satisfy the ever-growing demand. Will home-installed batteries, for example, be heavy batteries made out of abundant common metals instead of lithium? Will the battery prices start soaring instead of plummetting? Will the increase in battery production and use lead to more toxic waste mountains?
Perhaps it has something to do that with every centimeter the sea rises, the hawaii landmass shrinks? And who is the major land owner in Hawaii? Yes, the taxpayer! Means that raising sea levels destroy state owned real estate in the hundreds of millions. And land in Hawaii is not cheap you know.
Yes, of course its symbolic, but they want to not look like hyppocrites when they demand other states to adopt greener technologies.
Possibly the most confusing summary this week. Congratulations.
oh yes, because sarcasm is the best way to be taken seriously /sarcasm
The point is that so little has been done at large scale with batteries/storage to date that Tesla's efforts are a big leap for the cost and installed base of battery storage, and now feasibly making off-the-grid / backup / peak shaving / frequency regulation / demand response a real possibility to experiment with at scale.
It's a useless project. Can anyone explain any way this would be worthwhile? ..
Yeah, didn't think you could!
PHASE I
1. Install electric utility meter on house [done]
2. Install solar panels on house [done]
3. Install battery storage in house [done]
PHASE II
4. Extend axles through basement windows
5. Mount monster truck tires
6. Hook washing machine and dryer to drive shaft
7. Mount steering wheel on front porch
8. Install La-Z-Boy recliner seat
PHASE III
9. Fire it up!
10. Pull out and head down the highway, dragging the entire North American energy grid infrastructure behind it.
Project REDNECK SOLAR HYBRID HOUSE complete.
<blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
If the rising oceans are your concern then you want to stop these types of projects that use rare earths that come from strip mining the environment on scales that coal and gas can only dream of.
Yes? it is truth
Tesla is great and facts are irrelevant. Elon Musk will solve all environmental problems with its arrogance-to-electricity technology.
Sure. It's obvious to most people but it might as well be explained in case some folks haven't thought about it.
There you go, it's pretty simple and very sensible. It's also a good idea to add the following prediction to the above as well, as it's really a foregone conclusion and hence very safe to forecast:
Adding item (4) means that everyone will want the energy storage of (3) for recharging their cars when they get home. Paying the grid for that power when the sun can provide it for free during the day would be poor domestic economics. This pushes towards needing even more battery capacity.
Elon Musk is quite a visionary, but he's also a clever cookie when it comes to business. He knows where all this is going and is sewing up the future in EVs, mobile power storage, recharging stations, solar panels, and fixed power storage. He's got it all covered.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
The future looks so bright, you have to wear shades! Expensive shades.
Last year, Tesla had a press release stating PowerPacks would be ~$250/kWh but the recently released pricing on their site shows a cost of $470/kWh even if you purchase FIFTY-FOUR PowerPacks for a total of 5,4 MWh of energy storage.
And the inverters aren't cheap either.
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
Batteries for everyone. This is sort of like how we produce large amounts of electronic waste, and waste energy, by transmitting AC into the outlets, and manufacture a small transformer for every device and apparatus in our homes. This project will cut a portion of profits from the power companies, the customer will save a bit of money, and Tesla will make lots of money, and it is achieved by producing a large amount of electronic waste. This is a solution to the problem of not making enough money, nothing else.
$3500*365*15=$19M, plus plant costs. Doesn't seem so crazy all of a sudden.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
The solar influx has a seasonal cycle, and suddenly your calculation becomes $3500*15 = $52500. Oopsy-woopsy.
Interesting that suddenly a lot of anonymous, caustic comments turn up every time there is an article about renewable energy or cheap energy storage. If you didn't know better, you would almost think that there is an astroturf campaign going on...
Better get yer guns now while ya still can!
Solar flux in the tropics is rather steady over the course of a year.
Please do cite these sepcific states and the exact laws. The only things I see when Googling about this are fringe loon sites that only cite themselves, faked versions of legit news sites and a Snopes article debunking a fake story purporting that someone in Oregon ran afoul of such claimed laws.
Methinks your full of shit.
I was all set to be stoked about Solar City until I found out they were buying panels from someone who uses slave labor to manufacture them (Suniva) ... more like conniva. Is that better or worse than buying them from China? Still can't decide.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
countries in the tropics are usually too damn poor to buy these batteries (or a Tesla car)
The gigafactory is in Nevada not Japan, the Solar cells are from New York not China, Musk is a US citizen....who has a Hebrew first name but isn't even a little Jewish.
Sorry, I don't have time this morning to glean exact numbers. But there is a misconception that energy storage is free. I just went through these calculations for my off-grid dream home. (My cabin has been off-grid for 20+ years, so I am intimately familiar with wind+solar+storage.)
In reality, batteries don't last forever. The best of the best Rolls/Surette sealed lead acid batteries are good for 3,300 discharges to 50%. So, when you calculate the cost of those batteries against their total number of KWH that they will EVER store, it works out to approximately 10 cents per KWH. I've looked at every option available, and there are no other options close to flood lead acid storage amortized price.
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... the Tesla powerwall has/had projected cycle life of 1000–1500 cycles. On a cost per KWH of new battery, they are about 3x the cost of flooded lead acid. So, for 3x the price, you get about half the energy storage over their lifespan. Again, apologies for not presenting the arithmetic. But the stored energy will cost somewhere between 30-50 cents per KWH. So, it is already not competitive with on-demand generation - even if the cost of generation is zero.
116 MWh of battery capacity is still a drop in the ocean compared to the total electricity use. In the 2016, the US consumed 4,686,400,000 MWh of electricity. If we could run the entire country on those 116 MWh of batteries, they would run out in 0.78 seconds.
Strip mining is UGLY, but does not have to be much of an environmental problem. Plant grass/trees when its empty, or create a lake if that's easier. The problem with coal is not the strip mining, but what happens thereafter. Rare earth metals are not an environmental problem, like any metals they are easily recycled.
In a bunch of socialist states collecting rain water is illegal.
We had that topic a few days before: AFAIK only in the USA there are "states" where collecting rain water is illegal.
for those who are using free sun will not be paying their fair share of taxes.
They pay taxes on the installation, VAT etc. and pay workers who pay taxes. And they have money left over that they spent somehow and pay taxes again, VAT etc.
Your concerns are overrated.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Cars are everywhere, in the tropics too. The majority doesn't buy a new Tesla, but they don't buy a new Toyota/Ford either. The rich buys new cars (Tesla if they fancy that), the rest buy used. Tesla haven't been around for long, few used cars so far. But the current ones will be old soon enough.
Poor countries will go for the cheaper fuel. Electricity is cheaper than gasoline, especially if some comes from your own panel. Visit Greece someday, see how every home has free hot water (in summer) by putting the tank on the roof where the sun shines on it.
Why do these anonymous pro Solar City articles appear after SCTY stock declines? I didn't think Slashdot had been infected by the stock pumpers but now I'm not so sure.
Renewable storage and cheap storage are not the same. In EU currently I can get 10kwh of storage for around $1200 (usd) but I could buy 2500kwh in dino juice for that and avoid 90% of associated equipment costs.
Which states and what are are the exact statutes? All I see on this topic are 99% fringe sites that circularly cite themselves as evidence.
I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing the installation in Hawaii...
What makes sense for the grid is very different than what may make sense for a single cabin.
Peak demand in Hawaii is met with oil-fired generators at a cost of up to $500/MWh. Lithium competes well with that.
I think your are off by a big factor. A usual home (4 persons) needs an average electrical power of 400W (Europe) to 1000W (US). Add full electrical AC/heating by heat pumps, the power may double or triple. So even assuming for each person average total power 1000W = 1kW yields at most a daily storage capacity of maximum
24kWh = 0.024MWh.
If one includes for each person the industry, transport and government energy expenses, 4 times the previous value is still below your lower value. Obviously not all renewable energies needs to be stored at day for night use. Wind power is intermittent but works day and night, with tendency to average out over continental networks, while hydro power is very good for being used day and night, but also as energy buffer and storage with short and long cycles.
If anyone has got a better idea than what Musk is doing, now is the time to speak up, get off your bum, and make it happen. Just realize that you will face plenty of doubters and haters on your journey, but hopefully you've got the guts to keep going forward despite that. Planet earth needs somebody to succeed. There will be some who fail unless none try. And the doubters and haters will be drunk on schadenfreude. But hopefully, someone will succeed in spite of government, free markets, etc. If you are paralyzed because the politics, markets, and weather are not just perfect, you don't even jump off the the Titanic, you just ride her down. So, yeah... - Drop in the ocean - Murica this and Murica that - Dumb Americans - Whatever your anonymous trash talk might be Your doubt and hate fuels the very fire of people of Musk's ilk. They love to prove you wrong. So thank you for degrading yourselves for the public good. America was built by dreamers and believers of the impossible dream. Thank God there are still some of those around and we haven't all devolved into trash talkers. Cheers! Byron
The most famous fringe site is Washington Post. Here is the link: https://www.washingtonpost.com...
Those who do not see the results, are too sensitive to scroll down the results page in google query. Nobody reads page #2 of google results anyway.
Gosh, I wonder if there are any externalities associated with your choices? Because the way you write it, it sounds like the only factor to consider is cost. That might be just a teensy bit shortsighted.
no, collecting rainwater isn't illegal. However, having sold the rights to that rainwater (long before you bought the property), you're stealing from the person who bought the right for that rainwater. It's not different than mineral rights. Someone honestly bought the right to extract minerals under the land . You didn't buy that when you bought the surface.
And, it's very clear that as long as you return that water to the ground (irrigation) it's not illegal. When you take that water of someone else's and then flush it down the toilet so they can't get it, you've now stolen it from them.
Government regulation run amok causing solar to be turned off on sunny days.
http://ww2.kqed.org/science/2016/04/04/what-will-california-do-with-too-much-solar/
With whining racist AC complaining about the wrong facts on Slashdot but too cowardly to speak clearly and so resorting to hints ("moneychanger"). Poor ickle racist AC. I bet you pine for the days when men were men, women knew their place, and you could carry out a lynching without anyone complaining.
How much do you get paid to downmod anything critical of his Muskiness?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
if every new building and home came with its own PEM fuel cell sized to power the new structure during peak and sell the excess at other times.
...The problem with coal is not the strip mining, but what happens thereafter.....
As if those were separate, unrelated things. It is precisely the mess left over that is the problem with "strip mining" (now typically "mountain top removal" which also completely buries watersheds). Mining operations are typically conducted by specially formed companies owned by shell companies that are the real mining operator. When the project is done, the company declares bankrupcy, disappears, and leaves an awful mess behind with no one to hold accountable or pay the bills for remediation.
Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
Are you intentionally comparing apples to oranges, or was it a typo? You say you can get 10 KWh of storage or about 2500 kWh of petrol for around $1200. Are you including the cost of storing the petrol? Are you including the cost, and loss of energy, when converting the petrol to electricity? The cost of obtaining, extraction, shipping and refining petroleum is already in the price and taxes (for the most part not including the military cost to keep the oil flowing).
I'm not arguing with you that the energy density of petrol is very high, and other forms of storage are often not as efficient. Are you also considering the highly inefficient nature of creating petroleum in the first place? It took hundreds of millions of years for the petroleum to form. You're taking advantage, and rightfully so, of a very long and inefficient process that produced a very dense energy storage product.
We can manufacture batteries for storage from raw materials relatively efficiently. We cannot manufacture petroleum efficiently from raw materials and there is a limited supply available to us. We can manufacture alcohol, methane and plant based oils as energy storage from raw materials (with the help of plants, yeast and bacteria and animal waste). These are not as energy dense as petroleum, but they cost much less to manufacture than petroleum.
I'm not a petroleum engineer, but I'm familiar with the industry and I can find no process known for manufacturing petroleum products from raw materials. You can find processes for converting one form of fossil fuel from another (ie petrol from coal) or for extracting petroleum from tar sands. None of these processes actually create petroleum from raw materials.
We will run out. As petroleum becomes more scarce, the costs will increase. You can lead humanity into the future, or you can cling to the past. Investing in renewable energy and robust electrical storage infrastructure is not opposition to using petroleum, but it does lessen dependence on one source for power. This would make a future more resilient to wild swings in oil prices and shortages of oil. It is especially important to a place like Hawaii, as so much of their energy is imported, and yet they have abundant sun and wind.
The reason for limiting rainwater collection is that it harms the natural environment by robbing it of needed water. The affects do not show up for about 70 years after you do it, but they are real.
The following study does not agree with your conclusions in the general case:
- " A Comparison of Lead Acid to Lithium-ion in Stationary Storage Applications "
- http://www.altenergymag.com/co...
Summary:
In other words, your conclusions appear not to be valid unless you live in a permanently cold climate and your maintenance time is not costed.
Yeah, because clearly Hawaii is a poor mismanaged banana republic.
Clearly you suck at Google then. Colorado has laws about rooftop runoff and rain barrels, prohibiting them.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
The solar cells aren't from New York, yet. The SolarCity / Silevo factory doesn't come on line until at least June of this year, and won't reach full capacity until some time in 2017.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
Have they turned a profit yet?
When that happens, that will be a story.
SolarCity's contracts have arbitration clauses. You can't go to court to sue them. You can't join a class action to sue them. Elon Musk: great Social Justice Warrior.