Linux Mint 18 Will Ship Without Multimedia Support (linuxmint.com)

An anonymous reader quotes this report from Distrowatch: Linux Mint 18 will no longer provide separate, codec-free installation media for OEM and magazine distribution. Instead, the distribution will ship without multimedia support while making it easy for users to acquire media codecs during the initial installation of the operating system. "OEM installation disks and NoCodec images will no longer be released. Instead, similar to other distributions, images will ship without codecs and will support both traditional and OEM installations. This will reduce our release cycle to 4 separate events and the production and testing of 12 ISO images. Multimedia codecs can be installed easily: From the welcome screen, by clicking on "Multimedia Codecs", or from the main menu, by clicking on "Menu"->"Sound and Video"->"Install Multimedia Codecs", or during the installation process, by clicking a checkbox option." Additional information on the upcoming release of Linux Mint 18 can be found in the project's monthly newsletter.
Softpedia points out that they're using Ubuntu 16.04 LTS as the package base, meaning "more hardware devices and components are now supported."

Comments

So why use Linux Mint now?

[Tenebrousedge]

LMDE has had inconsistent releases. I'm not sure if they figured out whether they were pulling from testing or rolling their own packages. The Linux Mint website was hacked to distribute malware. Linux Mint devs managed to create some package name conflicts with upstream. I read they are holding off on systemd for now, but plan to switch at some point, a position calculated to annoy everyone. There are equally simple ways to get a distro with Cinnamon, and now they're not packaging multimedia libraries any more.

I'm out of reasons to consider installing Linux Mint, I think. Are there more positives/negatives I'm missing? Or can we just write them off at this point?

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[DoofusOfDeath]

I too am curious. When I reflect on why I've chosen Mint over Ubuntu in recent years, it came down to:

* Seriously disliking Unity. (But now I can install Cinnamon packages on Ubuntu easily.)

* Easy ability to play DVD's. (But it just got a tiny bit harder; not significantly.)

* Wanting to give Shuttleworth the middle finger regarding forcing Unity down people's throats. (But I think my finger has now been extended long enough.)

So now, I'm not really clear as to why I'd prefer Mint over Ubuntu.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[frovingslosh]

Right. The thing that this completely ignores is that Linux Mint WAS a Live DVD that didn't need to be installed to be used. I even used it in an old laptop where the hard disk had failed and the screen was cracked (running video right to my TV with an HDMI cable).. The old Mint was (and still is) a fine Linux distro that let me use video without installing it. If I have to install a Linux I'm going to select Debian, not some me-to alternate.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[MMC Monster]

You want to use Linux Mint if you want to use Cinnamon as your Desktop Environment and want an OS which is made to use that DE. And that's why I'm eagerly awaiting Linux Mint 18. (Sounds like the official release is going to be in July, at this rate.)

If you're comfortable installing Cinnamon on top of whichever OS you are using (whether Ubuntu, Debian, Red Hat, or other) and accept that some added troubleshooting will be needed since you're not using the preferred DE that comes with the OS, have at it and go crazy.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[Tenebrousedge]

I have Cinnamon/Debian on one machine and Cinnamon/Mint on another. I have no idea what you mean by "added troubleshooting". You understand that most of Mint's packages are pulled directly from upstream, yes? And that the major distros do not generally have a preferred DE? Other distributions also have their own testing and QA processes; I'm not sure if you meant to denigrate those or whether you simply didn't know they existed.

In any case, avoiding bugs does not usually mean using whatever the developers consider to be the latest "stable" release. There is no substitute for a long real-world testing cycle. Even if there were reason to believe that Cinnamon were buggy on other platforms, that would make it buggy software. Which is hardly an advertisement.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[Anonymous Coward]

The UI has been more or less consistent since Linux Mint 10, maybe further back. This has been a safe harbor in the storm of UI changes across all major distros and DE's. I set my mother up with Linux Mint 10 back in 2010 and have been steadily upgrading since. No missing features, no mixed up icons, no completely new UI, no problems. I don't think any other major distro can claim this level of consistency over the past 6 years.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[serviscope_minor]

* Seriously disliking Unity. (But now I can install Cinnamon packages on Ubuntu easily.)

I've never really understood this complaint, it's not like ubuntu doesn't have packages for a wide variety of desktop environments. I find that whatever system I use, I always have to install my preferred environment, config files etc anyway.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[MMC Monster]

I have Cinnamon/Debian on one machine and Cinnamon/Mint on another. I have no idea what you mean by "added troubleshooting". You understand that most of Mint's packages are pulled directly from upstream, yes? And that the major distros do not generally have a preferred DE? Other distributions also have their own testing and QA processes;

What I meant to imply was that the other distributions' testing and QA processeses may not include Cinnamon as well as Mint's does.

Now, you're right. I've never installed a non-distribution sanctioned DE. Maybe it will work just as good as the original with no added polishing needed. I'm just skeptical things will be that smooth. (And I'd find it hard to believe any of the desktop environments have zero bugs.)

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[Ol Olsoc]

I too am curious. When I reflect on why I've chosen Mint over Ubuntu in recent years, it came down to:

* Seriously disliking Unity. (But now I can install Cinnamon packages on Ubuntu easily.)

Ubuntu Mate isn't too shabby. I have it running on both my main Dell, and a Raspberry Pi. I like it as much as Mint.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[Ol Olsoc]

* Seriously disliking Unity. (But now I can install Cinnamon packages on Ubuntu easily.)

I've never really understood this complaint, it's not like ubuntu doesn't have packages for a wide variety of desktop environments. I find that whatever system I use, I always have to install my preferred environment, config files etc anyway.

I suspect the complaint is like the "systemd sucks", the "I can't find any drivers", and other complaints that are probably parroted by people who just want something to hate on, and regurgitate ancient issues that have long gone away. Must have been 8-10 years ago I had a driver problem - which was cured in a few hours.

If we can't find a modern Linux interface we like, we must not like any interfaces at all.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[KGIII]

Pick a different flavor. I like the official flavors - for a whole host of reasons. I also prefer LXDE over any other DE. So, I'm a Lubuntu user. They're going to go to LXQt but they didn't and 16.04 is short LTS (not long LTS, really) but that means I can stick with LXDE for a while longer or just install it myself. I may just start spinning my own soon enough but, for now, I love the Ubuntu ecosystem. I may also like LXQt but I've not tried it so I shan't opine.

It's Linux. You can do anything with most any distro - if you're willing to put in some leg work. I just stick with the Ubuntu ecosystem because it's the most robust for desktop users. I did snap a dev licensed copy of RedHat - I've used both Fedora and CentOS and used to use RedHat a long, long time ago. I've not yet actually installed it - not even in a VM. I figure that I'll wait until I'm back home and have spare bare metal laying around and skip the VM stage - maybe just use it on the metal and VMs on top of it via VMWare.

At any rate, there's a billion and three choices - and that's just sticking within the official Ubuntu flavors and relying on their repositories. You can slap Cinnamon up - it's in the repo. Install it, make sure it works, set to default to it, and purge the existing old and you're good to go. Do it on a LTS and life is good, no? The main thing I'm waiting for is the kernel that lets me just slap a new kernel in without rebooting (I think I have it now - I've yet to set up and check it out with uname -a and whatnot) and then I'm good. I don't care if I build up a couple of dozen old kernel files because I didn't reboot. I'm okay with that. I guess 4.2+ should enable live patching? I'm not 100% positive and I'm not sure where to check - I've seen varied claims. But, that's the "killer feature" I'm waiting for and, I guess, that's about it.

I guess i can just stuff my own kernel into it but having "official" support is good. Or, should I say, having it it officially supported (thus not breaking crap) is good.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[KGIII]

I've recently gone through a bought where I used Lubuntu but took one install and put a bunch of different desktops on it. I then would use 'em for a while and then purge them. Why? Pretty much for the reason you're expressing - I wanted to know if they'd screw shit up. See, I'm not in a position where my computer *has* to work - I have multiples and ample time. That and since last September, I've been on the road. Sort of... But what this means is that I'm using VNC and using the device as not much more than a dumb terminal.

But, I've been parked down here in Florida since December (going back home soon) and I've refreshed the hardware that was here in this house here so I'd ample spare hardware to play with and none of it was essential. If I broke it, I could burn it to the ground and have a new install in 20-30 minutes, complete with getting anything I needed *locally* installed and configured - remember, I'm just using it a as a dumb terminal.

Perfect? No, not really. I can't actually think of any problems that I had - however. I'm not recollecting any show-stopper bugs. Nothing needed to be burned to the ground. Nothing pressing. They all just kind of worked - except for one which, for some reason, ended up doing something wonky and wouldn't let me back into the OS on reboot. It wouldn't login. It took a minute but then I dropped into tty an took ownership of ~/.Xauthority and all was good from there. That was after installing XFCE and that's the only bug that I found.

If I'd thought about it, I'd have taken screen shots and documented it - it'd make good blog fodder and maybe help people out. I didn't. Still, that's the only issue I had but, I confess, I didn't go through them all with a fine toothed comb to check for bugs - I only noted what appeared and that was the only one that I saw.

If you're curious, I stuck with LXDE. I did not try LXQt because that was expected to be delivered in 16.04 at the time but they changed their minds and stuck with LXDE so I've still not tried that. I also played with a bunch of WM systems in the same time-frame. It was remarkably bug-free/simple. Your experiences may differ but I hadn't any issues with it.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[Grishnakh]

LMDE has had inconsistent releases.I read they are holding off on systemd for now, but plan to switch at some point, a position calculated to annoy everyone.

How is that annoying? It's an entirely pragmatic and conservative move: systemd is still rather new, so they're holding off on implementing it for a while to make sure the bugs are all worked out before finally adopting it like everyone else. Imagine how things would have been for KDE if more distros had done this back when KDE 4.0 was released, or if more distros had done this back when Gnome 3.0 was released. Jumping on the new & shiny almost always causes massive unforeseen problems, and too many distros have done this too many times. systemd does look like it's shaping up to be a real benefit, but waiting until it's mature is a smart move in an OS that tries to be extremely reliable and easy to use for beginners or anyone who doesn't want to have to tinker. If you want bleeding-edge, Linux Mint is simply not the distro for you, and never was.

and now they're not packaging multimedia libraries any more.

So what? Just a couple of clicks and you can download them, and LM can avoid any legal issues in having them. Blame your country's shitty legal system if you don't like it; the fault is really your own, since you're responsible for your government. I don't complain when I install LM and lots of other software isn't installed by default, such as Google Chrome (needed to watch Netflix), mmv (a handy utility for renaming files in batches), Marble (a 3D earth program), Neverball (a 3D marble game), etc. I just go install it myself. There's no room on installation discs to have the entire repository; they only need to put enough on those discs to make the computer usable, and after that you can get on WiFi and download everything else you need, including a boatload of software updates since the install discs are always out-of-date.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[Tenebrousedge]

There are very few releases based on Debian that can claim to be "bleeding edge", and Debian stable is very much not one of them. Systemd is the default in Mint's upstream distributions and almost all major distributions. There is no good reason to call it "immature". The Mint developers kowtowed to a certain vocal minority in not adopting the upstream system, which is annoying insofar as it is departing from the norm, but they aren't planning on maintaining this separation indefinitely, which annoys the systemd opponents. I don't know why you are bothering to argue that the debate about systemd is that it is buggy or new. That was an argument at one point, but it has always been secondary to concerns about overreach, NIH, binary logs, and monolithic libraries. Choosing to use deprecated software (as opposed to either OpenRC or systemd) increases the maintenance burden.

and now they're not packaging multimedia libraries any more.

So what? Just a couple of clicks and you can download them

This is the case with most other distributions as well. It nullifies one of the main advantages of Linux Mint. Now I can't give someone a Mint USB stick and expect them to have a fully functional system at the end of the install process, I have to explain my country's shitty legal system. Up until now, there has been a Linux distribution which allowed me to give someone basic OS functionality without having to make a political statement as well. There are more people that need to use computers than are willing and capable of understanding technical ramifications of intellectual property laws. In point of fact, most people don't know anything about them, and can't be bothered to learn. Linux Mint just made it significantly harder for most people to install and use. I'm not wildly enthusiastic about the idea of Linux becoming a popular desktop OS, but I do think this is a step backwards for that goal.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[jez9999]

The trouble with Debian (and why I switched to Mint) is that you either choose between an UNSTABLE operating system (that's their description, not mine), or old software. Sometimes they backport popular software but generally it's crappy and old. And trying to install newer software by adding repos gets really messy fast. You need to be a Linux enthusiast to do it and even I get bored as fuck with figuring it out.

Oh and no I'm not gonna compile everything either. I have better things to do with my time.

Re:So why use Linux Mint now?

[frovingslosh]

I would only use "STABLE" for a very mission critical application that ran 24/7/365 and that I had tested on STABLE. (And now that they are dropping 32 bit CPU support perhaps on very old hardware). But "TESTING" and "UNSTABLE" are not descriptions, they are names or labels. In truth any of them are more stable than anything Microsoft ever released.

"Drop FFmpeg or we sue" threats

[tepples]

Sometimes it's hard not to play said "game of 'is it open source enough?'". One cases of this happens when a distributor gets cease and desist notices from patent holders, which I imagine would be especially relevant to FFmpeg or the codecs of TFA.

Don't omit the protocol in an href

[Anonymous Coward]

in the project's monthly newsletter.

in the project's monthly newsletter. FTFY

Re:Old news

[bigfinger76]

I think someone was whining about it randomly in the comments of an unrelated story.

Re:Ideological purity

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Isn't MPlayer "open source enough"?

Re:Terrifying...

[lucm]

Yes it will auto-upgrade to Mint Mobile, so you will be able to use your server/desktop as a phone too.

Well, maybe instead...

[Opportunist]

...we'll get working support for nVidia graphics controllers?

I just threw in the towel trying to install it on this one machine here.

um a hey what time is it?

[Pseudonymous Powers]

Well, I read their blog post, and I'm having a hard time parsing it:

...although the absence of codecs is important for magazine and distributors and OEM installation images are required for manufacturers to pre-install Linux Mint on computers they’re selling to their customers, this is an area where a lot of work is done for a very small portion of our audience. With this in mind, OEM installation disks and NoCodec images will no longer be released. Instead, similar to other distributions, images will ship without codecs and will support both traditional and OEM installations.

So, to me, this sounds like: "Only a few of our users wanted us to leave the codecs out. So we decided it wasn't worth going to all that extra work all the time for just a few people. So we just took the codecs out of every build."

Am I just confused, or is this Bizarro logic? I mean, I'm definitely confused, but does this reasoning make sense to everyone else?

Did they just get sued by some the rightsholders of some patented codec, and just say, fuck it, if it's gonna be that kind of party, no codecs for anyone, ever? But if so, why wouldn't they just say that? What's with the doublethink? Is it doublethink?

I think I need a nap.

Re:um a hey what time is it?

[i.r.id10t]

There may be legal issues with redistributing, since Mint isn't as hard core "Gotta Be Free" as the Stallman crowd would like... so to cover the main distributor's butts ship disks etc without the codecs and prompt for install during the install process.

Sucks for the small percentage that only run from CD and don't have persistence set up

Debian is what really shines.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm out of reasons to consider installing Linux Mint, I think. Are there more positives/negatives I'm missing? Or can we just write them off at this point?"

Yes, IMO, there are many other negatives depending on the person. For me there is no compelling reason to use 18 from now on, and I don't trust their servers enough to even download the latest version which still includes codecs.

If you like the package management and the whole experience of Debian which is brought to you in part or more by other distros, I seriously recommend trying Debian, you can do a minimal install, too (like many other distros) and build your system up to what you want. Unless you want cutting edge packages you can try stable.

Debian has never disappointed me.

If you have the time, try as many distros as you can, but IMO you'll really love Debian once you really use it for a few weeks. The package management is outstanding and you can't beat their philosophy.

Re:Debian is what really shines.

[jez9999]

The trouble with Debian (and why I switched to Mint) is that you either choose between an UNSTABLE operating system (that's their description, not mine), or old software. Sometimes they backport popular software but generally it's crappy and old. And trying to install newer software by adding repos gets really messy fast. You need to be a Linux enthusiast to do it and even I get bored as fuck with figuring it out.

Oh and no I'm not gonna compile everything either. I have better things to do with my time.

The time I really remember this biting was when GIMP 2.8 was released with single-window mode. Install on Windows was no problem, but on Debian? The stable repos had 2.6 but god help you if you wanted 2.8. It was crap.

Re: So which to use?

[tinoesroho]

The mint updater, which is ages better. A pre-baked no-hassle cinnamon release. You can get the mintupdate tool from the mint packages (packages.linuxmint.com)

Re:Why retail hates Linux.

[Ol Olsoc]

Linux Mint 18 will no longer provide separate, codec-free installation media for OEM and magazine distribution. Instead, the distribution will ship without multimedia support while making it easy for users to acquire media codecs during the initial installation of the operating system.

The OEM system install is essential to obtain measurable market share. Linus has said as much himself. Multimedia support out of the box is so essential in the consumer market space that excluding it from your OEM distribution is perfectly stupid.

Never used Linux, eh? You expended more energy typing your complaint than it takes to get the codecs.

Re: So which to use?

[Ol Olsoc]

The mint updater, which is ages better. A pre-baked no-hassle cinnamon release. You can get the mintupdate tool from the mint packages (packages.linuxmint.com)

What part is better? I just updated one of my Ubuntu Mate installs, and it was seamless.

Re:Warlocks need not apply

[KGIII]

I've been watching this Ultimate guy for a long while now. I'm pretty sure he's insane and I'm not sure I trust him. However, he's working on a neat tool to enable you to easily wrap your own distro (based off Ubuntu) and run with it. I'm not sure that I'd rely on his particular builds. I am interested in the tool. I'd like a nice easy to use tool that would enable me to roll my own distro. I kind of like the online version OpenSUSE has. That's really neat. Hell, I'd even like something like that that was self-hosted where I could just tick and it would pull in the packages for me. It'd be nice if it added the requisite repos as well.

Go with Ubuntu Mate, forget Mint.

[Artemis3]

I rather go with Ubuntu Mate these days, it avoids the delays (and mistakes) of the Mint cycles, among other benefits. For newcomers it eases post-install actions with the "Welcome" app (not just codecs, but proprietary drivers, etc).

And more important, the support in Mint is lacking and very unfriendly if you happen to bump into certain someone on irc, Ubuntu keeps their code of conduct to prevent those abuses.

For the other flavors, Xubuntu and Kubuntu should do just fine.

Re:Go with Ubuntu Mate, forget Mint.

[Ol Olsoc]

And more important, the support in Mint is lacking and very unfriendly if you happen to bump into certain someone on irc, Ubuntu keeps their code of conduct to prevent those abuses.

For the other flavors, Xubuntu and Kubuntu should do just fine.

Yup I've tried out those two, and even Lubuntu for eePC class netbooks.

As for the occasional asshole, you echo my experience - whihc sounds like time to relate......

Experimenting with Paspberry Pi, I tried to install and run Ubuntu Mate on it, why not, the computer I use most of the time has that. Their NOOBS OS is not bad, but why not?

So I downloaded, compiled and installed it. I had some problems, with the install of the amateur radio program I need, but the worst was trying to resize the partition to use unallocated space.. Every time I tried, it did something awful to the microSD card. I couldn't fix it on my Mac, Linux or Windows machines, I actually had to put it in my camera to reformat it.

So dealing with the group I was involved with that is Mint heavy, I explained my problem, and amazingly enough, it was "All my fault", with a couple guys first going the kindly grandpa route, then switching to insulting when I noted that I'd already tried so many methods of re-sizing the card, and the program install wasn't working. Worthless advice and getting pissed off at the person having the problem. And if anything, I was way more humble than needed.

The Ubuntu Mate People? Looked into it, fixed it, and everyone is happy.

The Minty flavored group with the program I needed group? I reported then that I found an issue during the configure process of the program install - it kicked me out of configure asking for an alsasound lib. And I had installed all of the dependencies. I installed it, and reported back that the initial problem was fixed, and after installing the lib the program I needed was working fine. Should have been a simple fix.

And I still caught a ration of crap. "You shouldn't have to install that lib because the program prefers you use Pulseaudio!" "You're doing something wrong, idiot!"

My last post to the group was that if I download, compile, and install the missing lib after configure asked for it, and the end result was the program working perfectly, and I'm still doing something wrong , then I'm hopelessly confused . Their loss - not mine, I contributed a lot to their wiki, and get chased away. They needed me much more than I needed them. Vigorous discussion is great. Being at fault for doing what you were asked to do, which allowed you to finish compiling the program? Not so much.

Re:Why retail hates Linux.

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical Linux thinking.

"We have decided that keyboard support is not essential. If the user wants to they can use our oh-so-easy mouthstick interface to download keyboard drivers. RTFM, f'n newbs! We have 23 text editors and that should be enough for anyone."

Ubuntu Cinnamon Edition

[DeAxes]

Now if only there would be an CinnBuntu/Ubuntu Cinnamon Edition, we can get rid of Mint Linux all together. The only good things that differs it from Ubuntu is Cinnamon and Multimedia Support. Outside that, we have nothing good, just security issues and problems with updates being held back for no good reason.

Re:Point of Sale.

[Ol Olsoc]

No media play in the store = no sale.

Disclaimers on-line that media codecs are not part of the baseline system install = no sale.

Walmart spent the better part of a decade trying to explain the ins and outs of OEM Linux to its customers before throwing in the towel.

Tell me more about this store place where you go to when you want to buy Linux?

The people I have moved on to Linux don't even know of this sort of nuts and bolts stuff. I just show them how to use it, and they are happy doing what they want to do, with a lot less hassle. The people that I work with that are Linux savvy don't care, because it is a non-issue.

Somewhere in the middle might be a few who sweat the market share. I don't know what your Linux experience is, but "Year of Linux on the Desktop" is a bigger joke among journeymen like myself, and the real gurus than it ever was for people who give a damn about that kind of thing.

Re:Warlocks need not apply

[TangoMargarine]

I find the name 'Ultimate' a little distasteful, too

No kidding. Maybe for version 2.0 he could rename it Orgasmix or something. How arrogant.

Re:Point of Sale.

[TangoMargarine]

No media play in the store = no sale.

Because god forbid they have a salesdrone just click the big damn button that says "get codecs."

Mint on Ubuntu again?!

[imort.kz]

Well, so long as I can install all needed multimedia codecs anyway - I didn't think that it's a problem. Mint got returned to his roots by the way, or I forgot something? It was not basing their release on Ubuntu for last few releases so far I can remember. Maybe it will get better!