Slashdot Mirror


Declaring Code Is Not Code, Says Larry Page (arstechnica.com)

Alphabet CEO Larry Page says his company never considered getting permission from Oracle for using the latter's Java APIs in Android. Page, who appeared in a federal court, said Java APIs are open and free, which warrants them or anyone to use it without explicit permission from Oracle. From an Ars Technica report (edited for clarity): "But you did copy the code and copy the structure, sequence, and organization of the APIs?" Oracle attorney Peter Bicks asked, raising his voice. "I don't agree with 'copy code,'" Page said. "For me, declaring code is not code," Page said. "Have you paid anything to Oracle for using that intellectual property?" Bicks asked. "When Sun established Java, they established it as an open source thing," Page said. "I believe the APIs we used were pretty open. No, we didn't pay for the free and open things." [...] "Was Google seeking a license for Java?" Google lawyer Robert Van Nest asked. "Yes, and a broader deal around other things, like branding and cooperation," Page said. "After discussions with Sun broke off, did you believe Google needed a license for APIs?" Van Nest asked. "No, I did not believe that," Page said. "It was established industry practice that the API and just the headers of those things could be taken and re-implemented. [It must be done] very carefully, not to use any existing implementation of those systems. That's been done many, many times. I think we acted responsibly and carefully around these intellectual property issues."

4 of 405 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Giant problem by LichtSpektren · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And also Microsoft. Remember that MS-DOS was a renaming of Seattle Computer Products' QDOS, which itself was an API clone of CP/M.

    If the jury rules for Oracle, that means Microsoft will owe billions to the estate of Gary Kildall.

  2. Books, Music, and APIs by rockmuelle · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ok, I'm going to take a slightly unpopular stance here and suggest that APIs probably should be copyrightable.

    Ignoring all the legal issues, my rational is simple: An API spec represents the output of the intellectual effort of the architect far better than any implementation code. Designing a good API is difficult. Doing so requires finding exactly the right abstractions to allow users to use your API to perform complex operations in a simple, straightforward manner. The design process often involves several iterations of implementation to refine the API - not only implementing the functionality, but writing software that uses to to make sure it meets its goals.

    The book title/chapter title argument is often used to show why APIs shouldn't be copyrighted. That's a poor analogy. Many books don't bother with chapter titles, so they're clearly not essential to the interpretation of the material. When present, they usually can't be used to quickly summarize a book. A well designed API will clearly and concisely present to you everything the underlying library can do. In fact, you should never care about the implementation of the library. If you ignored the text of a book, you wouldn't really be reading it.

    If we're going to look to artistic pursuits for analogies, I'll suggest music is a better one. Melodies and lyrics are primarily what's copyrightable in music. Chord changes and musical embellishments are not. Arrangements are copyrightable when written down. Specific performances are also copyrightable (which is why samples must be cleared for use in other songs). Melodies and lyrics are akin to an API - the instantly let you identify the song/library and are the primary way most people remember it. For example, I can play "Yesterday" on a piano, guitar, speak-and-spell, and it's still a Beatles song. I still owe the Beatles royalties for using their lyrics and melody, regardless of how I arrange and perform it.

    Now, if we allow APIs to be copyrighted, we gain a lot of flexibility. Most importantly, the copyright holder can release the API under a free and open license if they want. The designer can say: here's my work, feel free to do with it what you want. Or, they can lock it down and restrict what can be done with it.

    For better or worse, Sun wanted the best of both worlds with Java. They implied that it was free and open, but never actually released the APIs under a specific free and open license. In the music world, the "Happy Birthday" saga is similar. The melody and lyrics were thought to be under copyright and Warner collected a few million a year from artists for performing it and using it in their works. Just like the core Java APIs, everyone knows "Happy Birthday" and most people used it casually without paying royalties (yes, I realize not everyone knows Java, but most readers of /. do). With the song, it turned out an earlier version that wasn't under copyright was found, which invalided Warner's claims. Unfortunately, that's unlikely to happen with Java.

    tl;dr: APIs are the creative output of the design process, just like melodies and lyrics are in music. They probably should be copyrightable.

    -Chris

    1. Re:Books, Music, and APIs by The+Raven · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ok, I'm going to take a slightly unpopular stance here and suggest that APIs probably should be copyrightable.

      Ignoring all the legal issues, my rational is simple: An API spec represents the output of the intellectual effort of the architect far better than any implementation code. Designing a good API is difficult.

      You forget that an important part of copyright is 'To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.' APIs are so fundamental to all creation, that being able to own an API would completely lock down and prevent the progress of science and useful art.

      You can copyright a painting, but not a painting style. Even if your style of painting is new, innovative, unique, and you spent years developing your unique method... you do not get any control over others copying your technique and using it in their own works. (e.g. Picasso and Cubism, Seurat and Pointilism)

      You can copyright a book, even a paragraph, but you cannot copyright a unique way of looking at the world. You could spend months on your ideas, on your unique take on a topic... but that does not grant you a copyright to the idea, only to the specific implementation of your paragraphs, chapters, and novels. (e.g. Tolkein and Elves, Niven and Ringworlds)

      The reason that ideas (and, by extension, APIs) are not copyrightable is because the only way to claim ownership an idea is via Patents. Now you can have endless debates on what should or should not be patentable, how unique it is, and the merits (or lack) of software patents, but the end point is that if you believe your software idea deserves protection the only way you can is via a patent. Because copyright only protects a specific implementation of an idea, not the idea itself no matter how much work went into generating that idea.

      --
      "I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
  3. Re:Giant problem by Solandri · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Not really. Software companies will all close shop in the U.S. and move their operations to countries where APIs are legally declared not copyrightable. All those companies hiring H1B programmers from India or outsourcing programming work to India? They'll move to India and if you're lucky they'll outsource some of their work to you in the U.S. Software development will continue on in the rest of the world as if nothing had happened. The U.S. will be relegated to a software backwater, as most of the software made and sold in the rest of the world cannot legally be distributed in the U.S.

    That's the nature of the free market. It interprets stupidity as damage, and routes around it.