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New Clues About Why Mt. Gox Failed (thedailybeast.com)

An anonymous reader writes: The Daily Beast is investigating internal emails, contracts, and new information provided by a former accounting employee at Mt. Gox for clues about how and why the world's largest bitcoin exchange failed in 2014. They conclude that CEO Mark Karpeles "bought a company already missing tens of thousands of bitcoins" in 2011, leading to an email exchange a few months later where the previous owner suggested ways to make up the $800,000 shortfall. Unfortunately, Karpeles "had signed a non-disclosure agreement that left him unable to discuss the loss," and after a second larger hack, he moved the majority of bitcoins offline into "cold storage," leaving only enough online to complete transactions.

According to the article, former Mt. Gox employees "claim rogue U.S. government agents seized $5 million of Mt. Gox funds in summer 2013 in retaliation for Karpeles's refusal to cooperate with them. This seizure supposedly cut into the firm's operating reserves, which may have been the beginning of the end, at least according to the former Mt. Gox accountant."

While $450 million eventually disappeared, Thursday ZDNet reported that a class-action lawsuit brought against the bitcoin exchange by investors "has been dismissed."

50 comments

  1. illegal money laundering... obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Mt Gox was used for illegal money laundering. This whole topic is like asking, "Why did the mafia get arrested?" ... well, duh.

    1. Re:illegal money laundering... obviously by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

      This. And given how much the mafia depends on reliable money laundering, I'm a little surprised to see former CEO Mark Karpeles still above the waterline.

    2. Re:illegal money laundering... obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe I'm just stubborn but I honestly don't understand how people can think that it's viable as an actual currency. I understand that even paper money doesn't have any actual value beyond what we as society place on it; however, it's like if I start saying four leaf clovers are worth something. You can go find (mine) them and then pick how much you want to sell them for.

      Also if you look at all the uses for BitCoin I'm sure that the majority of them are not for legal transactions. I'm happy to see civilization try to move away from big banks and such but I think bartering would be a better system then having faith in crypto currency that (as we have seen) has no real safeguards in place.

    3. Re:illegal money laundering... obviously by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 2

      I understand that even paper money doesn't have any actual value beyond what we as society place on it

      People may intellectually realize this is the case, but they don't really believe it on an emotional level, which is why they're unable to accept there's no real difference between Bitcoin and the US dollar.

    4. Re:illegal money laundering... obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shocked! Shocked I say! Not really though, it sounds like the little guys got ripped off and the big guys got paid off. Bitcoin, meh.

    5. Re:illegal money laundering... obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I understand that even paper money doesn't have any actual value beyond what we as society place on it

      People may intellectually realize this is the case, but they don't really believe it on an emotional level, which is why they're unable to accept there's no real difference between Bitcoin and the US dollar.

      That's like saying there's no real difference between my inept artistic endeavors and Da Vinci's Last Supper because they are all images painted on flat surfaces. The US dollar is backed by the world's largest market economy, a powerful government of a sovereign state and a sophisticated financial system capable of processing huge numbers of complex transactions a day (for example annual USD/EUR FX transactions are running at about $1,300 billion (gross) per day). Bitcoin is based on an arbitrary choice to follow one particular genesis block, can't do more than 3 tps due to inherent limitations, and is backed by people who keep writing extremely buggy software in PHP and Javascript and other people who make a living as drug dealers, rip-off merchants and ransomware shits. Pretending these are equivalent is not sensible.

    6. Re:illegal money laundering... obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      it's like if I start saying four leaf clovers are worth something. You can go find (mine) them and then pick how much you want to sell them for.

      That is like starting to say gold is worth something, when you can just go mine more of it and pick how much you want to sell it for. Yes, someone might counter claim that gold has industrial uses, but so do clovers as part of animal feed. But the price of gold is dominated by its use in investment, speculation, and cultural/aesthetic uses.

    7. Re:illegal money laundering... obviously by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      But the price of gold is dominated by its use in investment, speculation, and cultural/aesthetic uses.

      It also has intrinsic value in all sorts of scientific venues and industrial processes. It's irreplaceable (at least so far) for use in some applications, including medicine, computers, and electronics.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    8. Re:illegal money laundering... obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It also has intrinsic value in all sorts of scientific venues and industrial processes.

      Yes... which was said already in the sentence before your quote.

      It's irreplaceable (at least so far) for use in some applications, including medicine, computers, and electronics.

      For most industrial uses, it is not even close to irreplaceable. It turns out things like gold plating are still pretty cheap despite the price of gold because you use so little. If the price were even higher, you can find other metals or alternatives for most of those uses. Only about 10% of gold is used for industrial uses, and the vast majority of that is for gold platting to protect against corrosion.

    9. Re:illegal money laundering... obviously by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 0

      That's like saying there's no real difference between my inept artistic endeavors and Da Vinci's Last Supper because they are all images painted on flat surfaces. The US dollar is backed by the world's largest market economy, a powerful government of a sovereign state and a sophisticated financial system capable of processing huge numbers of complex transactions a day (for example annual USD/EUR FX transactions are running at about $1,300 billion (gross) per day). Bitcoin is based on an arbitrary choice to follow one particular genesis block, can't do more than 3 tps due to inherent limitations, and is backed by people who keep writing extremely buggy software in PHP and Javascript and other people who make a living as drug dealers, rip-off merchants and ransomware shits. Pretending these are equivalent is not sensible.

      ^ AC quoted for truth...

    10. Re: illegal money laundering... obviously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's like if I start saying four leaf clovers are worth something. You can go find (mine) them and then pick how much you want to sell them for.

      Well, if I keep picking clovers to give to you, and you keep giving me USD in exchange for them year after year... How can you possibly say the clovers have no value when you clearly have been paying me valuables for them?

    11. Re:illegal money laundering... obviously by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      One can only conclude that a certain level of protection is being provided in exchange for inside information and back up files, perhaps even that Mt Gox was set up to collect information then collapse when it was no longer needed and provide a mountain of bitcoin for espionage purposes. This considering whose money was lost and how vengeful those types are, they basically live for ego and revenge, they are being kept quite effectively at bay.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    12. Re:illegal money laundering... obviously by Troed · · Score: 2

      Maybe I'm just stubborn but I honestly don't understand how people can think that it's viable as an actual currency.

      You answered your own question:

      Also if you look at all the uses for BitCoin I'm sure that the majority of them are not for legal transactions.

      Of course, that's only one of the areas where Bitcoin (lowercase 'c') excels. The value of Bitcoin comes from being a decentralized global non-censorable transaction network.

  2. Canada? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's with the Canada icon?

  3. "rogue U.S. government agents" by Nutria · · Score: 2

    Who else thought "NID" from the Stargate universe???

    --
    "I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
  4. Magic the Gathering Online eXchange by dbIII · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    It's Magic the Gathering Online eXchange

    Calling it "Mt. Gox" instead removes a very major clue as to why it failed. For some reason a hobby card swapping site turned out to be less than ideal for exchanging bitcoins with currency - who would have thought?

    1. Re:Magic the Gathering Online eXchange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? It's a perfect analogy.

      And what's this "failure" you're talking about?

    2. Re:Magic the Gathering Online eXchange by willworkforbeer · · Score: 1

      They used the inactive domain name. It is not relevant to the collapse in any way whatsoever.

      --
      Pretending this is my office full of bitter coworkers..
    3. Re:Magic the Gathering Online eXchange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's Magic the Gathering Online eXchange

      No, it is not. It is Mt. Gox. Both were created by the same guy and used the same domain name, but are separated by three years (and an intermediate use of the domain). The card exchange site was closed before Bitcoin was even announced, and has no connection to the bitcoin exchange other than the founder and domain name. Unless you want to make some argument that people who are interested in MtG are incapable of exchanging bitcoins, then there is no relevance or clues at all.

  5. Gox is short for goat sex by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    in case you thought it wasn't enough already.

  6. Re:Bitcoin by mfh · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bitcoin like anything else is spectrum. Over at one end of the spectrum there are people linked with criminal activity that want privacy in regards to currency because their transactions are illegal and governments would use the transactions themselves as a means of identifying criminal activity.

    Over at the other end of the spectrum are economic experts who see it as a liberating exchange medium unencumbered by bureaucracy, unfettered by government interference.

    Also it's better than cartels like Paypal.

    --
    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
  7. Vices of Consent by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately, Karpeles "had signed a non-disclosure agreement that left him unable to discuss the loss,"

    There's no way this would have been an enforceable contract. There can't be a "meeting of the minds" when one party is withholding the fact that nearly a million dollars is missing from the company.

  8. NDA's do not cover criminal activity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    IANAL but NDA's do not cover criminal activity and can't compel you to be complicit in covering up a criminal activity (and lying to customers about the state of their assets is a crime). You also can't indemnify someone against illegal activity they committed (from The Daily Beast article). This article almost feels like it placed by Karpeles lawyers because it doesn't even try to question any of these claims. There has to be something else going on here... If you buy a company and find out a substantial chunk of their stated assets are missing you sue the crap out of the original owners, you don't meekly shrug your shoulders and try to hide it. Either that or Karpeles is just a complete idiot (which may well be the case).

    1. Re:NDA's do not cover criminal activity by FlyHelicopters · · Score: 1

      Yep... for the amount of money involved, there should have been lawyers involved...

      Yes, I don't always like them either, but they do serve a purpose, one is to avoid this nonsense...

      But yes, Karpeles might just be an idiot, he won't be the first or last.

    2. Re:NDA's do not cover criminal activity by ultranova · · Score: 1

      But yes, Karpeles might just be an idiot, he won't be the first or last.

      Or he could be a savvy businessman who took a calculated risk: a million missing vs. lots of growth potential.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    3. Re:NDA's do not cover criminal activity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you buy a company and find out a substantial chunk of their stated assets are missing you sue the crap out of the original owners,

      Who may not have enough money left to cover the missing assets, may make it so you don't even get your investment back, and will likely destroy the business once it hits the news. That would be risking it all for little in return, vs. keep going and hoping to make up the loss assets with a successful business (still risking it all... but for better return).

  9. Because it's still McBucks... by RyanFenton · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Doesn't matter if it's got a wonderfully elegant underlying structure, it's still a FUNGIBLE, TRADEABLE RESOURCE, with a set of mechanisms controlled by PEOPLE.

    If a company town somewhere offered the perfect elegant scrip system, where demand is balanced against resources to ensure complete fairness in the system... if people are in control of it, they're going to find some way to exploit their position over others with that system.

    Even though it was getting popular, it's still a niche currency, and it was going through a mania stage, like tulips did 300 years ago. It's very instability is an important key to reaching adoption, but also why it would be very difficult to reach large scale in its current form.

    The problem is that it's a cryptocurrency - and like town scrips, anyone can invent one. And people are motivated to create them, in order to live at the vortex of managing a currency. But you can't stabilize a monetary system like that, since they're both cryptic and competing.

    Even if a government were to create one, its very cryptic nature would make it feel very much like a 'McBuck', a secretly controlled game that feels fed by advertising as much as any real features. All currency is a form of shared manipulation, but cryptocurrencies are a different kind of artifice, in the same way computerized voting is flawed compared to paper voting.

    Ryan Fenton

  10. Re:Bitcoin by NotInHere · · Score: 1

    Wow, you have the lowest UID I've seen in a long time.

  11. easy one by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Mt Gox failed because bitcoins are a stupid idea and the people who have been pushing them have a childish view of money and finance.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:easy one by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, that had very little to do with it. They were sloppy and kept losing bitcoins. The same problem would exist if they were holding dollars, rubles, or gold bars. Rule number 1 when holding something valuable: don't lose it!

  12. Not a Mountain by freeze128 · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's MTGOX, not Mt. Gox.

    The website was originally named because it was a trading site for "Magic the Gathering" cards. It's an acronym for "Magic The Gathering Online Exchange". It's not a mountain named Gox.

    1. Re:Not a Mountain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh shit, I've had the wrong impression all this time.

      To be honest though, Mt. Gox sounds cooler.

    2. Re:Not a Mountain by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 2

      It's MTGOX, not Mt. Gox.

      The website was originally named because it was a trading site for "Magic the Gathering" cards. It's an acronym for "Magic The Gathering Online Exchange". It's not a mountain named Gox.

      This should fixed. It's time to name a mountain Gox.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    3. Re:Not a Mountain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This should fixed. It's time to name a mountain Gox.

      Please go back to wikipedia.

    4. Re:Not a Mountain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could arguably be shorthanded as MtGOX, too.

    5. Re:Not a Mountain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The website was originally named because it was a trading site for "Magic the Gathering" cards. It's an acronym for "Magic The Gathering Online Exchange". It's not a mountain named Gox.

      The domain name, not the website, was originally used for that. But after a couple years the domain got reused to a business that calls itself Mt. Gox. Are you next going to suggest that we can't use "Pen Island" for the business that uses penisland.net ?

    6. Re:Not a Mountain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      May I introduce you to their logo?
      https://www.mtgox.com/img/mtgo...

  13. It was the butler with candlestick in the library by JoeyRox · · Score: 1

    I'm sure of it.

  14. Because suckers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Easy money

  15. It failed for the same reason it succeeded. by Brannon · · Score: 2, Informative

    It was an anti-establishment un-regulated bank for a rogue currency. That was a huge draw with a certain segment of society.

    But it turns out that there are good reasons for bank regulations.

    1. Re:It failed for the same reason it succeeded. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A lot of the history of BTC-related efforts read like people unaccustomed to financial regulation finding out - the hard way - why it exists. It turns out it's not all a con by the state.

    2. Re:It failed for the same reason it succeeded. by phantomfive · · Score: 1
      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  16. Re:It was the butler with candlestick in the libra by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The bot with the candlestick chart in the library.

  17. A common theme of anti-establishment movements by Brannon · · Score: 1

    They eventually re-discover which parts of the establishment were actually pretty important.

    1. Re:A common theme of anti-establishment movements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then they re-invent Lisp.

  18. Mt. Gox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kaperles did nothing wrong!