Tesla Co-Founder Says Hydrogen Fuel Cells Are a 'Scam' (electrek.co)

Marc Tarpenning, co-founder of Tesla, believes hydrogen fuel cells are a "scam". Tarpenning, who is not with Tesla anymore appeared on Internet History Podcast last week to outline a number of issues with hydrogen fuel cells. He said (via Electrek blog): If your goal is to reduce energy consumption, petrol or whatever resource, you want to use it as efficiently as possible. You don't want to pick something that consumes a lot for whatever reason, and hydrogen is uniquely bad. There's a saying in the auto industry that hydrogen is the future of transportation and always will be. It's a scam as far as I can tell because the energy equation is terrible. People will say that hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, but it's abundant out there in the universe not here. We live on a planet where hydrogen is super reactive -- it's bound up into everything. It's bound up into water, wood and everything else. They only way that you get hydrogen requires you to pour energy into it to break it from the chemical bonds. Electrolysis is the most common method. You put electricity in water and it separates it, but you are pouring energy in order to make hydrogen, and then you have to compress it and that takes energy, and then you have to transport it to wherever you actually need it, which is really difficult because hydrogen is much harder to work with than gasoline or even natural gas -- and natural gas is not that easy. And then you ultimately have to place it into a car where you'll have a very high-pressure vessel which offers its own safety issues -- and that's only to convert it back again to electricity to make the car go because hydrogen fuel cell cars are really electric cars. They just have an extraordinary bad battery.Here's the podcast.

Comments

Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[Anonymous Coward]

And a poor way at that. Cannot agree more with his assessment. I have been saying things like this for years, could never understand why people thought it was a great idea.

Re:Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

*People* never thought is was a good idea: oil and automotive executives do, because hydrogen maintains a gas station-style distribution network. That's why they try so hard to sell it to you.

They hate nothing more than people charging up at home, on their own terms, with the electricity provider of their choosing, possibly with their own solar.

Re:Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[rockmuelle]

Where are mod points when I need them???

This. This. This!

I remember talking with my grandfather years ago about the future of energy for cars. He's a EE who ran a telecom infrastructure company for years and always saw things from the infrastructure perspective. Whatever was least disruptive to the energy ecosystem as a whole was going to win. Given the entrenched players at every stage in the distribution chain, hydrogen made the most sense. Each industry segment would profit greatly from upgrading their infrastructure to support hydrogen while not having to abandon their place in the process.

Electric cars upend multiple industries - from oil services all the way to convenience stores. Change will be fought tooth-and-nail. I just hope Elon doesn't run out of cash before he's had a chance to force the issue on electric cars.

-Chris

Re:Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[Mr D from 63]

What's to stop people from creating their own hydrogen at home? Even running the conversion on solar power.

Nothing except cost.

Re:Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[ShanghaiBill]

What's to stop people from creating their own hydrogen at home?

Common sense. Conversion of electricity to hydrogen is only about 60% efficient, so you lose 40% right off the top. Then it takes more energy to compress it. If you store it in a metal hydride, that takes more energy, plus increases the weight by an order of magnitude. There are many more problems with hydrogen, such as metal embrittlement and permeability through almost anything.

Hydrogen fuel has mainly been pushed as greenwashing, or cynical phoney environmentalism designed to delay adoption of electric cars based on actual sensible technology like lithium batteries. This was most famously done by George W. Bush, to divert research from battery powered electric cars.

Re:Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[Mr D from 63]

Only the existing infrastructure really isn't suit for hydrogen storage and distribution. Not the pumps, nor the tanks, nor the transports. Its cheaper an easier to convert a gas station to a charging station than a hydrogen station.

The H2 vision is based more on the thought that batteries will not get to a successful range/charge/recharge/cost balance. Batteries are progressing but not yet to that point, but close enough to re-think H2. I've never thought H2 made any sense simply due to inefficiency of the entire process. Fuel cells in general are still only niche products even after tremendous investment in development for the last 20 years. However, if cheap enough hydrogen could be produced, we would see that niche grow to a bigger portion of the market.

Re:Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[DarkOx]

I think safety plays a factor too. You producing hydrogen at home is easy, even when you want to use solar as the energy source.

Your next problem is storage that is hard, hydrogen is pretty reactive, and h2 as molecules go is very small so you have to worry about leaks. Not such a problem dealing small amounts produced experimentally under the fume hood in your HS Chemistry class but could be a serious issue in quantities need to power an automobile. Next you have to start pumping it into some kind of pressure vessel which again without being special engineered for h2 will be even more leaky. If you have this indoors it might go boom.

Its the kinda thing your crazy uncle who got himself an mechanical engineering degree from Lehigh before deciding to get into abstract art and controlled substances might be able to pull off successfully in his garage. The problem is every yokel on the internet will try and copy it, and that's when it goes boom.

Re:Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[mspohr]

H2 is not plentiful. There is no natural source of H2. It is rare. You have to make it by electrolysis or from CH4 by very inefficient methods.
There is no distribution network for H2. You have to build plants and compressors and tank trucks and storage tanks and they all leak since H2 is such a small molecule. Millions of dollars for a single distribution point.
Electricity already has a ubiquitous distribution network. It's literally available everywhere. Just plug your car in at home (or work, etc.). Electric socket costs a few hundred dollars to install (if you don't already have one).

Re:Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[mspohr]

So, where do you recharge your H2 vehicle on long trips?
I charge my Tesla at Superchargers which are already installed just about everywhere. Drive 3-4 hours, charge 30 minutes (usually ready for some food and a break by then), drive another 3-4 hours, repeat...
Tesla Model X can tow your boat (it has a 5000 lb rated hitch).

Re:Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[bigpat]

to divert research from battery powered electric cars.

I think that may ultimately be the goal... but why would anyone consider hydrogen fuel cells as anything other than a way to store electricity... so really it should be compared to other types of batteries. To me, pronouncing hydrogen fuel cells as a dead end technology is premature. I wouldn't invest in it, but converting electricity into hydrogen to store energy does actually work and perhaps could be made as efficient as storing electricity in batteries. It is pretty far from a "scam" in that you actually have working technology. The issue seems to be cost and efficiency just aren't competitive at the moment. But you can say that about a lot of R&D types of technologies that could end up having some use.

Re:Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[j-turkey]

So, where do you recharge your H2 vehicle on long trips? I charge my Tesla at Superchargers which are already installed just about everywhere. Drive 3-4 hours, charge 30 minutes (usually ready for some food and a break by then), drive another 3-4 hours, repeat... Tesla Model X can tow your boat (it has a 5000 lb rated hitch).

First, you're mistaken when you say that Superchargers are installed just about everywhere. There are only 624 Supercharger stations in the entire country. There are a few very large states that do not have a single Supercharger. That just doesn't compare to the estimated 126,000 gas stations in the US.

Secondly, I believe that you're missing the point. Batteries are still not the most ideal energy storage mechanism for long-distance travel because of the time required to charge a battery (30-minutes) when compared to a more portable energy storage mechanism that can flow at up to 10 gallons per minute. Your asking where to fuel a hydrogen vehicle on a long trip is disingenuous, because a network does not exist yet. However, with sufficient demand (and technology that does not exist yet on a commercial basis), there is no reason why existing gas stations couldn't update to include hydrogen - and maybe even replace fossil fuels with hydrogen.

Finally, while a Tesla Model X can tow up to 5000 lbs, doing so reduces the vehicle range by 60%. It's great that you have a Tesla and really like it. I'm glad that it works for you. However, the idea that these cars can be all things to all people is incorrect.

Re:Hydogen is just a way to store energy

[mspohr]

Superchargers are installed about every 150 miles. Mostly near Interstates. There are very few places without a Supercharger and there are also about 10,000 other electric vehicle chargers in the US (plus every house or business has an electric plug). Tesla will double the number of Superchargers in the next year.
H2 charging doesn't exist so you can predict anything but the $1-2 million cost for an H2 charging station makes them ten times as expensive as a Supercharger so I don't think many of them will get built in my lifetime.
No one said an EV could be everything to everyone. We are talking about EV vs H2 here and right now EVs work very well for a few hundred thousand people whereas H2 vehicles don't really work for anyone.

Nothing new here

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Hydrogen is an energy *vector*, not an energy source. The energy must come from somewhere - natural gas usually - and, as TFA's author points out, the efficiency of the entire chain from energy source to the wheels is quite insanely bad.

He's Right

[Anonymous Coward]

He's right about all of the negatives, but even that being the case it doesnt mean that a "really bad battery" still isnt the best thing we have for a use case of converting excess power into storage which can provide long range to cars. Personally I hope batteries win but the argument for hydrogen isnt meritless.

News at 11...

[HungryMonkey]

Guy who makes cars using alternative fuel source says other guys fuel source is scam, news at 11...