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Google France Being Raided For Unpaid Taxes (reuters.com)
jones_supa writes: Investigators in France have raided Google's Paris headquarters amid a probe over the company's tax payments, Reuters reports. The French Finance Ministry is investigating $1.8 billion in back taxes. According to a report in French daily Le Parisien, at least 100 investigators are part of the raid at Google's offices. A source close to the finance ministry said that the raid at Google's offices has been ongoing on Tuesday since 03:00 GMT. In February, a source at the French Finance Ministry told Reuters that the government was seeking the $1.8 billion from Google. At the time, official spokespeople for Google France and the Finance Ministry refused to comment on the situation. Google could face up to a $11.14 million fine if it is found guilty, or a fine of half of the value of the laundered amount involved. In April, the EU revealed plans to force multinationals such as Google, Amazon and Facebook to disclose exactly where and how much tax they pay across the continent. A new clause was added since the Panama Papers leak requiring the companies to report how much money they make in so-called "tax havens."
The EU is changing the rules so that companies part tax on business they do in each state, regardless of where they funnel the profits too. Google tries stuff like claiming that all sales take place in Ireland, but their staff in other countries put things like "sales at Google" on their LinkedIn profiles. France is having none of it.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Because that is how every government in the world does taxes?
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
I guess you have to start somewhere, but this is pretty much how every international business in the world dodges taxes.
Because they don't have coordinated tax systems, and doing that is a huge political issue, otherwise yes that is how you do it. This is the reasonably low bureaucratic route where the company reports all income and taxes, and spot checks can be used to make sure companies are telling the truth.
I can't be the only one who read the title, went to Google, and searched for "France Being Raided For Unpaid Taxes".
The State with a capital "S" has just run out of other people's money. Which means they will now go get money from anyone they can, screw legality or morals.
If you have anything of value the state can reach, it will reach for it now. A small amount at first but you would be surprised how quickly it can snowball (ask the people of Venezuela or Argentina). Not quite time to make a run on the banks, but keep a weather eye on the availability of cash and perhaps start buying more durable goods with lasting value that are not so easily seized.
Funny, my take is exactly the opposite.
Big corporations have been playing a shell game with the tax man for a long time.
The deficit caused by these big corporations using government services but yet skating out on the tax bill, has been handed to the rest of us to settle.
Finally, "The State" figures it out: FOLLOW THE MONEY
...international treaties mean they'll be abrogating their agreements...
[citation needed]
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
This is World vs Multinationals. All countries, including the US, are slowly getting smart about taxing large companies.
Everyone is realizing that countries competing on tax conditions for large companies does not benefit anyone, except the large companies.
Expect to see much more counties to demand corporations pay tax on gains obtained in their specific country, regardless of the corporations internal financial structure and organization and tax deals with other countries.
Cue the shills saying that Google doesn't need to pay any tax, that they are not doing anything illegal, that this is some conspiracy from the state to steal money from "wealth creators". How much are you being paid to repeat this nonsense?
And to those that say these companies are not doing anything illegal: try claiming to the tax man that you have to pay no income tax because you have no income, because all you earn you have to pay to a company based in Panama called John Doe, inc., as this company owns your name and lets you use it for the exact amount of taxable income that you earn each month.
The tax man will skin you alive if you try this. But this is exactly the kind of shit Google, Apple, Amazon, and your favourite megacorp get away with.
entropy happens
In France they use those pages to raid first and ask questions later.
There's a reason tax laws are so "utterly absurd"... it's called loop holes.. You know when a company says "It doesn't explicitly state that I CAN'T do this.." So you end up with 15000 pages of legalize because companies are ALWAYS trying to get out of taxes. Not that they shouldn't, but what do you expect. Simplifying the tax code is never as easy as it sounds.
Perhaps if taxes weren't so high...
I don't think I buy this argument. Companies are ultimately driven by people, people are people, and human nature is human nature. A tiger who is plays shenanigans at a 35% or 28% tax rate does not magically change his stripes if the tax rate drops to 20% or 15%. It's still more than zero, so he will play jurisdictional arbitrage to try and make it so.
Hey, Windows users, there is no such thing as "forward" slash, there is only slash and backslash.
Probably none of it.
If there is something governments love more than surveillance and censorship, it's money. And Google happens to have a lot of it and do shady stuff with their taxes, that's a good opportunity.
But what constitutes a "cost"?
Is it the lease on your building? Yep
Is it the power to run your shop's lights? Yep
Is it the cost of attending a "widget" conference in Las Vegas for a week? Um...
Is it the cost of the new Porsche you purchased which gets used for business use 5% of the time? Errr...
Is it the boozy lunches you regularly hold for your "friends" in the widget industry? Hmm...
Most of those 15,000 pages are probably to do with defining what constitutes an acceptable expense and what doesn't.
The problem is immensely more complex than you might think -- which is why business gets away with "avoiding" tax so much more effectively than wage-slaves do.
Free men own guns. Slaves don't.
... would that add me to another category... being a tool?
I'm curious... I've never needed a gun for anything... if I were to buy a gun
What is the obsession with these metal objects which have many applications but are most often owned by people who seem to first buy one and then look for a reason to own one. I did this with a toy robot I have. He can now dance and sing and welcomes me when I walk into the office.
I wonder... would a dildo have the same effect? In other words... if you didn't really need one but you bought one anyway, simply because you have the right to buy one of course. Would you run around wearing one in a holster? Would you fight for legal rights to have a vibrator on display, clipped safely to your belt while at Chuck'E Cheese during a children's birthday? Currently, so far as I know, you can be arrested for this type of behavior, though within the right context it's clear to me that a large enough or odd enough dildo or vibrator could be classified as baring arms.
If you had one which was gigantic and shaped like a fist, I'm positive it would classify as "baring arms". So... would you fight for your legal right to carry a large object capable of stroking, fisting and otherwise just beating the shit out of someone with when used as a club? Would you carry it across your back? In your belt? Or would you insist that you be allowed to keep it "Cocked" at all times?
You could suggest that a large fist shaped vibrating dildo would not be in the same category as a hand gun... I would disagree... I'm 100% convinced that it would have a far higher likelihood of scaring off the bad guys than a gun. If you break out a gun, most bad guys would likely respond violently. Break our a gigantic vibrating dildo and chase a guy with it, it's almost absolutely certain to cause the other guy to panic and run.
I'm also pretty convinced that if you wanted to topple a tyrant... a creative person with such a fantastic dildo would have much more of a chance against armored soldiers with tanks and such than a redneck with a pile of guns. Paint it rainbow and you would conquer half of North Carolina with one swing.
I think we both agree that like your guns, such amazing and versatile fist shaped, vibrating "massage items" are best kept locked away from children in your bedroom than on display for everyone to see. You can take them out when the time is appropriate. You can rub them and touch them and clean them and keep them oiled and shiny. I simply don't need to know your expertise level with such items... it's ok if you keep that to yourself.
I honestly swear, I really really really don't want you using either your gun or your love toy around me even in extreme circumstances. I am perfectly ok with taking my risks and dieing instead.
The Google / Double Irish equivalent for widgets would be making a subsidiary company in another country, that then licenses the design of your widgets to you. You then claim a large business cost and pay taxes on a lower profit, whilst your overseas subsidiary laughs all the way to the bank.
Corporations do have a representation in the government. Their representatition is called a lobby group. In fact, unfortunately they have more representation than people.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Maybe you like "If copyright laws weren't so fucked up and prices for content so insane people wouldn't download shit" more?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I guess you have to start somewhere, but this is pretty much how every international business in the world dodges taxes.
Indeed - and Google isn't the first corporation to be put through the EU wringer either; remember Microsoft? It is the right thing to do, and once they are on a roll, more and more countries will follow suit.
You miss the point the parent poster is making. If, as was suggested by GPP, tax is a flat rate on gross income, what constitutes a cost doesn't matter.
PP was making the point that if your business operates on smaller margins than the flat rate, it will not be able to pay its taxes, much less the shareholders.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
I guess you have to start somewhere
If you don't have a solid case then you go mafia style after the small guys who can't afford to defend themselves.
If you do have a solid case then you go straight after the biggest fish to prove the point and set the precedence. The idea is if they go after Google they won't need to go after anyone else, just send them the bill.
Some European countries, including France, have an effective solution to loopholes. If there is any doubt or question, a court settles it based on an interpretation of the law that tries to maintain its spirit. If a company has a question they can ask the tax office for clarification, and even challenge their judgement in court, but if they decide to just start abusing that loophole and get found out later they are going to be on the hook for everything they owe.
It's a fair and workable system. Occasionally there are still ambiguities that need fixing, but as Google has discovered just pretending your sales happen in Ireland for tax purposes doesn't work.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
The thing is that at the scale Google and co operate at even a minute different in tax rates can make it economically viable to hide the money offshore. If you lower the tax rate to accommodate their demands you create a race to the bottom as every country trying to get those tax dollars lowers their tax rate to less than their "competitors." And who are the losers in this arrangement? We are. The people who have to foot the deficit created in the governments budget on account of lost tax revenue.
As for the statistic about tax laws and regulation the US has over 660,000 pages. The UK should be weak sauce compared to that!
"There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics"