Slashdot Mirror
Norway Agrees On Banning New Sales Of Gas-Powered Cars By 2025: Report (electrek.co)
If you live in Norway, an all-electric future is likely closer than you think. The country's four leading political parties have agreed to a plan to stop selling gas-powered cars by 2025, according to a report. Electrek reports: The four main political parties, both from the right and the left, have agreed on a new energy policy that will include a ban on new gasoline-powered car sales as soon as 2025 -- making it one of the most aggressive timeline of its kind for such a policy. What's probably most remarkable here is that Norway is currently one of the world's largest Oil exporters.Tesla CEO Elon Musk was rather pleased with the announcement. He said, "Just heard that Norway will ban new sales of fuel cars in 2025. What an amazingly awesome country. You guys rock!!"
It's not exactly brave to give up cars when you have flying reindeer to rely on.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Uh, it's easier than that. One of the apparently less-relevant political parties in Norway suggested this course of action and other Norwegian political parties refused to support this. Something was apparently lost in translation.
Ezekiel 23:20
Of course, the electricity will come from renewable energy, from a country that's one of the leading hydroelectric-powered countries in the world.
Here, fixed that for you. What kind of idiot would burn an export article for expensive electricity in Norway?
Ezekiel 23:20
I have a different WTF - WTF is the EU flag doing as the Slashdot icon for a story about Norway? Norway isn't part of the EU - precisely because it has all that wonderful cash from oil exports.
Norway is the only country I've ever seem where socialism is sustainable - forever spending more than your tax revenue works great if you have another source of revenue to make up the difference! (If only Iraq had been set up with the same model - thongs might have gone very differently there.) Of course, they won't have a bright future if everyone stops buying that oil.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
So there will be a ban on "new" gas powered cars. But what about older, used cars? I'm thinking the Norwegians will go the way of the Cubans, and develop ways to keep the older cars running as long as possible. In Havana, you can see running examples of the best that Detroit produced in the 50's. Ingenuity, duck tape, chewing gum and chicken wire keep them running. I'm guessing that the Norwegians can pull off that feat, as well.
Plus, the Norwegians are super cool, brave, daring and unafraid. What do you cook for Christmas dinner? Toss a frozen Butterball in the oven? Norwegians skewer a sheep's head on a pike in their backyards, and cook it with a flame thrower. Supposedly, the eyes of the critter taste the best.
I would not mess with those folks. In other news, the Norwegians have wisely invested their oil fortunes for future generations. Unlike some Gulf states, who build fancy hotel palaces.
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
For a relatively small Nordic country, Norway have been pretty smart. When the North Sea Oil business started up, Norway taxed the profits just like the UK did, but unlike the UK, which squandered the proceeds in the 1980s and 1990s, Norway invested all their tax revenue in a Sovereign Wealth Fund (basically like an investment portfolio for the entire country). That fund is no performing so well that the per-capita tax burden in Norway is much lower than it would. Have been had Norway followed the UK's short-sighted approach.
They have excellent roads and infrastructure and the potential for cheap renewable energy. If anyone in Europe can make that happen, Norway can....
Triple WTF
1. The news is incorrect. The conservative government were quick to say that this never was agreed.
2. Yes, not part of EU
3. Not really socialists. Labour party (maybe more like democrats) were kicked out of power. Norway now has a conservative government. (maybe more between democrats and republicans)
don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
Norway is the 10th largest oil exporter. So this is kinda like saying "I will not drive a petroleum-powered car anymore. Instead I will drive an electric car paid for by money I made selling petroleum to you so you can drive your petroleum-powered cars."
If they were really against oil as an energy source, they would stop drilling for it and selling it.
If only Iraq had been set up with the same model - thongs might have gone very differently there.
Well if it had worked in Iran when they tried Iraq might have followed after, you should read up on what happened there.
To sum it up, some bad guys didn't like the idea of a socialist utopia in Iran so the staged a coup that led to the shithole Iran is today.
As for your comment on sustainable socialism you clearly have a very narrow idea of what socialism is that doesn't include most functional socialism in the world.
What's probably most remarkable here is that Norway is currently one of the world's largest Oil exporters.
They also have plenty of hydroelectric power, so they can basically power themselves sustainably while selling all the oil. Talk about winning the geographic lottery.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Norway is not socialist, far from it. Norway arguably is a more market economy than even the United States. https://fee.org/articles/the-m...
Or is this one of those "diesel and CNG don't count as gas" sort of deals that lets them play propaganda games?
In 2014, in Norway, 95% of its electricity was hydroelectric which may mean they may not need fossil fuels for cars. By building another dam or add other renewable electricity sources Norway can provide the additional needs of transportation. Besides, the North Sea is being depleted of fossil fuels and eventually it will be all gone. One estimate I've seen is that as of 2010, Norway had about 24 years of North Sea oil production time left and their production has fallen to half of it's 2000 volume and continues to fall. Sounds to me like Norway is in an excellent position to convert to electric cars.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Internet speed.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
There is no North Pole Death Metal...There is, however, a LOT of Norwegian Death Metal.
The same way they always have?
Are you implying that electric cars don't do well in the cold? Because if you are, you're misinformed. Li Ion based batteries do poorly in heat, but the cold doesn't bother them anywhere near as much as the heat does. Also, Tesla basically has a cooling/heating system just for the batteries to keep them at an optimum temp.
Norway already has the highest number of electric vehicles per capita in the world -- mostly Teslas... and the people love them.
Norway will abandon gas-powered cars, probably in favor of electric cars. Of course, the electricity will come from fossil fuels burned in power plants, from a country that's one of the leading oil producers in the world. The decision makes the environmentalists happy without accomplishing anything of value.
Read my post above: 95% of Norway's electricity is hydroelectric. Putting up some windmills, photo voltaic infrastructure and maybe another dam will provide the necessary electricity for transportation.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Business man who opened up all of his patents to his competitors and whose competitors are all currently engineering all-electric vehicles as well is happy because it's the right thing to do. If you think Telsa will be the only all-electric car company by then, you're misinformed.
All cars are going hybrid or electric-only soon -- though a few companies are still toying with hydrogen fuel cells. Those hydrogen powered vehicles are still on the drawing board as the only commercially successful ones were large passenger buses, and they're still not very well designed.
All that's happened is that some of the political parties have agreed to discuss a plan banning new sales as early as 2025.
Somehow that translated to "Norway will ban new sales of fuel cars in 2025"
You're thinking of the Sami ;)
As far as the Nordics go, Norwegians are the "nouveau riche". They weren't very wealthy, then happened to come into a lot of money and aren't always clear on what they should do with it. The sort of people who would break from lunch in a boardroom to go cross-country skiing. I live in Iceland and it seems everyone here has some sort of story about how they or a friend or a company or NGO or whatever were just given things by Norway for some reason or another - ambulences, a helicopter, boots, you name it.It seems everyone, except some Swedes, likes the Norwegians.
For the others:
Sweden has the reputation of being trendy, extremely liberal to the point of social experimentation, and a bit metrosexual. The sort of place where even if you got mugged by a Hell's Ångel, it'd be by someone named Sven who makes his own scented beard oil, wielding a designer knife and riding on a Husqvarna because it's better for the environment than a Harley and, you know, they make the best sewing machines....
Danes tend to fit German stereotypes better than the Germans do. They also have a reputation for cheap beer (by Nordic standards - although it tends to be the Nordic equivalent of Budweiser) and casual (if sometimes unintended) racism.
The Finnish stereotype is often of someone who's depressed, tough, and loves vodka and saunas. But not knowing any Finns, I have no clue as to the accuracy of the stereotype.
Icelanders tend to be like your laid back cousin who is always coming up with these crazy schemes to make money and dismissing any criticism of them as needless pessimism, constantly getting in trouble, but picking himself up and trying again. Icelanders throughout history have wavered between "We're proud and independent, don't even think of trying to control us!" and "Um, hey, could someone, um, come and help us fix this giant mess we've made for ourselves?" The whole country was founded based on the concept of achieving independence from Norwegian rule, then a couple hundred years later basically invited Norway in to stop them from killing each other.
The Faroes... everyone seems to forget that they exist, even Danes (they're a country in the Danish realm). When Danes remember that they exist, it's usually in the context of debt. To Icelanders, the Faroe Islands are that place where a family would put their trampoline on the roof because it's the only land flat enough for it, and where the signs are so hilarious that it seems that the language was intentionally designed as a prank. For example, read as Icelandic, this sign tells people it's permissible for them to utilize vaginas after October 15th and, while it might be tempting to use them earlier, not to; this one asks if you're a penis; while this one offers cultural "fucking tours" led by "Skúli the Fucker".
Greenland often fits in lists of Nordics because it's in the Danish realm, but it has little in common culturally. Greenland seems to want little to do with Denmark, while Denmark seems to have the primary goal of dragging out any independence movement as long as possible so it can profit as much from Greenland's resources in the interrim.
Anyway, that's your stereotype guide to the Nordics.
Maybe, but I can barely make out what you're saying because your horse is too high.
They're doing what the Saudis are doing, laying the groundwork for the post-fossil fuel age. The Koch Brothers may be funding psuedoskepticism, and there may be lots of people who believe AGW is an evil lie designed by Satan and/or Communists, but countries like Norway and Saudi Arabia, major oil producers that they are, know very well that sooner or later, and likely sometime after the middle of this century, the Age of Oil is going to come to an end.
Norway is also one of those smarter states who has been stowing away oil revenues, unlike, say Venezuela and Alberta, and the Saudis are following suit with their own sovereign wealth fund, the largest in history.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Socialism works wonderfully well in Finland as well. My wife, kid and myself live in Finland, so I should know.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
You're not seriously suggesting they're going to stop pumping and selling oil to other countries that are still guzzling it, right?
I have no idea how this will work in Norway, but here in the US, such a plan would have to include a hell of a lot of exceptions for people and situations in which an electric vehicle won't work. My next car may be all electric since I never drive far, but my brother's family routinely drives rather long distances to visit their in-laws, and my parents drive across several states a few times a year. At the moment, EVs simply don't have the range to travel hundreds of miles in a single day, nor the capacity to haul all of them over a mountain range with all their gear.
Hopefully manufacturers will eventually get the range to a reasonable "all day driving" distance (even Teslas aren't quite there, and everyone else is laughably far behind them), but they're not really there yet. That more or less excludes anyone who wants to be able to take long road trips with their vehicles.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
Of course, the electricity will come from renewable energy, from a country that's one of the leading hydroelectric-powered countries in the world.
Here, fixed that for you. What kind of idiot would burn an export article for expensive electricity in Norway?
What, you've never seen "Jurassic Park"? Dinosaurs *are* renewable.
Where I am it goes down to -35C.
I am told that EVs handle this temperature just fine, because they use EVs in Norway.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Hopefully manufacturers will eventually get the range to a reasonable "all day driving" distance
You mean, like, by 2025?
I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
Admittedly Finland's debt to GDP is better than the US, but that's not saying much. In the past 30 years it has grown from 10% of GDP to over 60%. Socialism always looks nice until you run our of other people's money (then it looks like Venezuela). Still, enjoy it while it lasts.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
3. Not really socialists. Labour party (maybe more like democrats) were kicked out of power. Norway now has a conservative government. (maybe more between democrats and republicans)
No. Not even close. Even the right-most party of our coalition is definitively to the left of the democratic party, maybe if they elected Bernie Sanders and took a big step to the left they'd be getting close. The labour party and their coalition partners including the "socialist left" (SV) are so far off the charts I don't know how to describe it to an American. They're not totalitarian, but so egalitarian that... one of their youth politicians seriously wanted "equal pay for work". Not "equal pay for equal work", but what I just said. They want us out of NATO, if we just don't threaten anyone nobody will threaten us. That really worked out great for us during WWII, we totally didn't threaten Germany in any way and they totally didn't occupy us for five years. Sigh.
Maybe I'll try for a Star Trek analogy since this is /., in one of the TNG episodes Q was stripped of his power and chose the human race as his sanctuary when he had nothing. Well, if I was stripped of everything and had to pick a country on earth I'd pick Norway. Nowhere else are you treated with that much pity, this much aid, so few demands and so little resentment. Even when we had a mass murderer (Breivik) killing almost 70 of our teens and a dozen more in total the worst that happen was that one person threw a shoe - and he apoligized to the court. I've heard it said about Gandhi you'd hardly believe such a man could exist, well Norway is pretty much the same when it comes to nations. I'm amazed that our naivety has gotten us so far.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
forever spending more than your tax revenue works great if you have another source of revenue to make up the difference!
No matter how much money you earn from whatever source it's always possible to live beyond your means. For example, just because you have lots of oil revenue doesn't mean that you can be undisciplined in how you spend and re-invest it. That's why Venezuela, which should be a rich country with such enormous reserves of oil, is instead experiencing extreme poverty with shortages of electricity, clean water, food, toilet paper, medicine and just about everything else that people need and want. It's unscientific Socialism run amok. The Norwegians on the other hand are smart, well educated and disciplined whereas the Venezuelans are generally none of those things. What a difference that makes.
Can't tell if trolling or serious... Electric cars have a slightly lower range in the cold, but perform just fine. They're not powered by lead acid batteries.
race-to-the-bottom capitalism works, until there's no new markets (all the wealth is in the hands of the wealthy, and the poor throngs have no money to spend. The rich can't spend money fast enough, and the poor, well, they can just eat cake), then things end up like Somalia. So, enjoy it while it lasts.
Li Ion based batteries do poorly in heat, but the cold doesn't bother them anywhere near as much as the heat does.
I've used Li-ion batteries in a lot of product designs, and generally you shouldn't charge them below 0degC, and you shouldn't discharge them below -20degC. Keep in mind these aren't likely the same as the ones used in modern EVs, but I can't seem to find a source for that specifically...
As an aside, the only batteries I've found that are able to work reliably at -40degC are pure lead spiral wound (note: not lead-acid). The -40degC requirement is standard for outdoor industrial applications in Canada, and I imagine Norway would be similar.
Only crack the nuts that crack. You don't put the ones that don't crack in the sack.
I'm willing to bet that the 'resolution' is like a lot of resolutions - full of sound and fury, but set so far in the future that it can be quietly 'forgotten' by everybody but a few extremists, and the new administration, not feeling bound by what their predecessors promised, can either disclaim the resolution or push it back. "Sorry, technology didn't progress quite as fast as they hoped".
There will probably also be huge gaping loopholes. To use the USA as an example, "commercial trucks" were, and in many cases still are, exempt from some of the more stringent pollution and mileage requirements.
One problem that this caused is that the mileage requirements actually drove more people to drive trucks - that could have the abilities they were looking for. So in some ways, the EPA requirements actually drove increased gasoline usage, because the different layers of regulation drove some people to drive less fuel efficient vehicles.
I don't read AC A human right
A lot of people get the idea that cold weather kills batteris because that's when they seem to fail. Heat has been killing the thing for a long time before the actual failure point.
Indeed, cold weather tends to preserve them.
However, sufficient cold will temporarily reduce the power of the batter, while heat will permanently reduce it, it's just that the temporary loss is greater than the permanent. Doesn't help that you need more power to start a cold engine.
So you could, theoretically speaking, ship many 'failed' batteries that are a decade old from Alaska, where they can no longer start a car at -40, down to where it never gets below 0, and get at least a few more years out of them.
I don't read AC A human right
I have no problem traveling hundreds of miles a day in my electric car (a Tesla). While it adds time, it's not a huge amount since that time can often be spent doing something useful while the car charges. The Tesla superchargers tend to be located at places where there are plenty of amenities available. In my trip from the Bay Area to Seattle charging added maybe 4 hours to my trip. During the stops I often would grab a bite to eat or shop. Often the car was ready to continue before I was. In their cross-country trip they spent roughly 20% of the time charging and the other 80% of the time driving.
Long trips are getting easier and easier as more and more superchargers are installed. The newer cars also charge faster than mine does and have a longer range.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
Airstream did a test with being towed by the Model X. While the range was reduced, it wasn't a huge amount, something like 30% reduction in range. By the time they phase out ICE vehicles, EVs should have plenty of towing capacity and even greater range.
The nice thing with electrics is they have an insane amount of torque that puts diesels to shame.
As it is, I'm taking my model S camping next week out in the middle of nowhere. While I'm not towing anything, I have no problem getting there and back. Hell, I decided to go up early and stay at a nearby tiny hotel for a night until the rest of the group arrives. I asked about a 220v outlet and they said they have a tesla charger there, and it is literally in the middle of nowhere. The closest town has a population of 500 and most of the roads in the county aren't paved. It won't even add a significant amount of time charging to reach there, and no, I don't even need to charge at the hotel.
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
They're doing what the Saudis are doing, laying the groundwork for the post-fossil fuel age. The Koch Brothers may be funding psuedoskepticism, and there may be lots of people who believe AGW is an evil lie designed by Satan and/or Communists, but countries like Norway and Saudi Arabia, major oil producers that they are, know very well that sooner or later, and likely sometime after the middle of this century, the Age of Oil is going to come to an end.
Norway is also one of those smarter states who has been stowing away oil revenues, unlike, say Venezuela and Alberta, and the Saudis are following suit with their own sovereign wealth fund, the largest in history.
To add to your excellent post:
“The Stone Age did not end for lack of stone, and the Oil Age will end long before the world runs out of oil.” -- Sheikh Zaki Yamani, Saudi Arabian oil minister '62-'86
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
As it happens, the past 30 years have also seen a huge shift to the right. By contrast, Finland's socialist period saw the shift from an agrarian backwater to an industrial power.
Socialism works as long as people in charge care more about building up the country more than filling their pockets or advancing their pet ideology (ironically enough, that includes socialism itself). Sadly, our current government is determined to not just loot the country for the benefit of the owning class but also destroying the very institutions that would allow it to be rebuilt, such as education, postal system, public roads, and government ownership of various industries.
In any case it doesn't matter. Capitalism nearly collapsed when Great Depression put people out of work, and thus made them unable to participate in the economy. This time the same is done by technological progress brought on by capitalism's own inexorable logic. The Age of Capital is ending, and the shadow of Soviet Union still weights down socialism as a viable alternative making peaceful transition difficult if not impossible, so I suppose we're heading for another age of turmoil and revolutions. The question is: what, if anything, will be left standing after Capitalism is done falling?
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Danes tend to fit German stereotypes better than the Germans do. They also have a reputation for cheap beer (by Nordic standards - although it tends to be the Nordic equivalent of Budweiser) and casual (if sometimes unintended) racism.
I must protest. We are not nearly as humorless as the typically dour Germans, and we are much much worse drivers. And while our basic cheap beer is a bit shitty, most people stick with the premium and micro brews.
Stereotypical Danes, from the perspective of a Dane: Beer-drinkin', pork-eatin', kamelåså-speakin', always complainin', thinkin' we're the center of the universe.
Also, we love Norwegians and even though we publicly make fun of the Swedes, they are our brother people forever, and we will not tolerate any outside shittalking of Sweden. Only we and the Norwegians are allowed to do that.
Eat the rich.
I primarily transport myself by car, secondarily by public transport and occasionally by bicycle. It's true that we are horrible cyclists, but our driving is equally shitty.
I can only speak for myself and the people I know, but we generally like the Icelanders as much as the other Nordic peoples, but I'll admit that we don't think about Iceland or the Faroe Islands nearly as much as we think of and interact with Norway and Sweden. So maybe on the same level as Finland? We don't quite understand you 100%, but we think you have cool cultural stuff and your countries is fascinating and beautiful.
We did do some really shitheel things in the past, like forcing the Danish language on everyone and not giving you proper autonomy, but I don't think you'll be able to find very many Danes who disagree that we did some bad shit in the past.
Personally, I love all the Nordic countries, and I kinda wish we could create a Common Nordic Region or something of that nature, with Greenland, Iceland, the Faroe Islands, Scotland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and possibly Estonia as well. We have so much shared history and cultural commonality that it would make for a really strong union.
Eat the rich.
In Norway, 400 kilometers is "all day driving". Literally - it came as something of a surprise after arriving there and having to drive from Oslo to Bergen. Took 8 hours and we drove "highway" (lol) all the way. A highway in Norway is something where you move from curve to curve, and you actually have two whole lanes so you don't need to wait until the opposing cars are gone before you can use the road. At least, not all the time.
I think a Tesla is uniquely suited to Norway: lots of very cheap hydro-electric power, which they sell but could also use themselves. Lots of money to subsidize the transition. Lots of money for building new infrastructure. I'm quite jealous :)
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
Free from debt? Free from crumbling infrastructure? Free from starving sick people? Perhaps even free from having to decide which con artist to vote in as Emperor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism