Slashdot Mirror


Uber Denies Access To Harvard Startup That Compared Ride-Hailing Prices (boston.com)

In April, a group of Harvard Business School students created an app called Urbanhail that allowed users to see side-by-side real-time pricing -- including surge rates -- for different ride-sharing apps including Uber. The app received a tremendous response from users. Shortly after that, the group received emails from several Uber representatives, asking them to remove Uber's data from the app citing terms and policies. "Uber's developer terms explicitly forbid using its data in any manner that is competitive to Uber," said Chris Messina, Lead at Uber Developer Experience. This has resulted in Urbanhail removing Uber's data from price-comparison-list. Urbanhail's Amber James didn't find Uber's stance on the matter. He said: They are absolutely a champion of competition when it's them against taxi companies or them against regulators. However, in its own ride-hailing niche of the transportation market, Uber's stance is ironically absolutely anti-competitive.

29 of 152 comments (clear)

  1. Should Have Used UBER LUBE!! by zenlessyank · · Score: 2

    Grease those pockets proper.

  2. Not ironic. by Chmarr · · Score: 5, Informative

    The word you're looking for is "hypocritically".

    1. Re:Not ironic. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Uber's behavior is certainly hypocritical, but it is likely legally unenforceable. Factual data cannot be copyrighted, and it is unlikely that it can be kept secret by TOS restrictions. Urbanhail should not just cave in because they received "a few emails".

    2. Re:Not ironic. by CaptainDork · · Score: 2

      This is a matter of siphoning data. It's a 45 degree drill into someone else's property via API.

      Owners of the "P" in "API" can, and do, grant or deny third party access.

      Often, API access is a licensing revenue stream.

      This concept has years of case history that favours Uber.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    3. Re:Not ironic. by WorBlux · · Score: 2

      There are fair use exceptions., or Uber might be opened to an anti-trust counter-claim should they sue to enforce this particular TOS.

    4. Re:Not ironic. by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2

      Uber's behavior is certainly hypocritical, but it is likely legally unenforceable. Factual data cannot be copyrighted, and it is unlikely that it can be kept secret by TOS restrictions. Urbanhail should not just cave in because they received "a few emails".

      Uber, as it turns out, really makes a lot of money selling data. In fact, this is what the real issue with Austin regulations was all about - Austin demanded free access to Uber ride data (the details). It's too much of a revenue generator for them to give away. Houston was anxious for the data, New York, too, and they both paid for the data from Uber. But when Austin decided they weren't going to pay for it, Uber decided to leave town.

      Data is that important to Uber. They will crush Urbanhail with their lawyers.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    5. Re:Not ironic. by rhazz · · Score: 2

      This is only hypocritical if one can argue this is actually anti-competitive, which I haven't seen any supporting argument for. Uber is not stifling or restricting their competition by refusing to provide a free data service to some third party. My read of it is that this is a violation of the EULA to use their data services.

      Has Uber been anti-competitive? Absolutely. But this ain't it.

    6. Re:Not ironic. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      This is only hypocritical if one can argue this is actually anti-competitive, which I haven't seen any supporting argument for.

      Competitive markets rely on informed participants. By withholding data, Uber's actions are clearly anti-competitive. But whether they are legally enforceable or not is not clear.

      My read of it is that this is a violation of the EULA to use their data services.

      A company cannot just stuff anything into an EULA, and expect to be able to enforce it. A contract cannot require someone to do something illegal, and it cannot impose conditions that are illegal.

    7. Re:Not ironic. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      it's hard to see how the price of a service offered to the public fits into any reasonable definition of "property".

      It likely isn't "property". Under current IP laws, facts (and a price is a fact) cannot be copyrighted. Only creative expression can be copyrighted. Numbers (and a price is a number) cannot be trademarked. So that only leaves patents, and these prices certainly aren't patented. Uber is not claiming that Urbanhail is stealing their IP, they are claiming that they are violating a contract.

    8. Re:Not ironic. by plopez · · Score: 2

      Nope. That's just business. No businessman ever wants a "level playing field" or a "Free Market". They want a skewed playing field and a captured market. Why would thy want anything else. Competition just hurts them. The only way to have anything approaching a a Free Market is through careful regulation. e.g. by breaking up monopolies or restricting unfair competition.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  3. Ironic? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I find Uber's behavior to be totally expected, and not ironic in the least. Hypocritical, perhaps. Ironic? Not even a little bit.

    1. Re:Ironic? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2

      I find it surprising that anyone is surprised, and even more surprising that UrbanHail thinks they have any rights to Uber's data.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  4. What do you call a taxi dispatcher with an app? by raymorris · · Score: 2

    > competition when it's them against taxi companies

    Doesn't he mean "against other companies".
    A taxi company with an app is still a taxi company.

    1. Re:What do you call a taxi dispatcher with an app? by danbob999 · · Score: 2

      Agreed. Uber is not ride sharing. Except UberPool, you do not share a ride with anyone. Uber X is a taxi service.

    2. Re:What do you call a taxi dispatcher with an app? by vux984 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A taxi company with an app is still a taxi company.

      Indeed, many cab companies now have apps -- I've booked cab rides by app on 3 continents now. Same essential features as uber... book a ride online (set time, pickup / destination addresses); see confirmations, see if a cab has been dispatched to you, see where available cars are on the map... ; leave feedback on the driver...

      Its all really quite funny as uber's arguments about what make it 'uniquenly not a taxi' become even more strained and ridiculous then they already were.

    3. Re:What do you call a taxi dispatcher with an app? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      what make it 'uniquenly not a taxi' become even more strained and ridiculous then they already were.

      Particularly when they just changed their app to allow their employees to more easily take breaks and fill up their gas tanks.

      Waaahhhh? I thought Uber drivers could pick up people whenever and wherever they like, on their own schedule. Why the need to make it easier to have a break?

      Yeah, Uber isn't a taxi company. In name only.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    4. Re:What do you call a taxi dispatcher with an app? by JonnyCalcutta · · Score: 2

      Taxi companies hire employees, maintain and inspect cars, and generally monitor operations and handle logistics. They determine how many drivers they need and where to distribute them.

      Just not true, which is why your analogy is crap and falls apart no matter how many times you repeat it :). A taxi company _may_ do these things, but it doesn't have to. Plenty of taxi companies simply run dispatch operations for contractors with their own vehicles - the drivers choose when to work, who to pickup, where to be (I can't speak for the US here). Even having an app for dispatch is nothing new - we've had that at our local taxi company for years. The only thing that's new is 'because internet, we deny liability....'

  5. Young person is SHOCKED to discover hypocrisy! by NotDrWho · · Score: 2

    Film at eleven!

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  6. Public Domain by symes · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Surely custome price data is in the public domain and so fair use applies?

    1. Re:Public Domain by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 2

      Sure, the data might be public domain. But this does not require them to license their developer API to anyone and everyone, for any purpose. I'm not aware of any commercial enterprise that licenses their API for use by competitors.

    2. Re:Public Domain by cellocgw · · Score: 2

      I rather doubt it. If they collected pricing data from historical rides, e.g. by surveying customers, that's not copyrightable. But I don't see that anyone has any right to examine before the fact, which in effect is the same as asking for the details of Uber's pricing algorithm.
      You can collect stats on where your company shows up in a Google search page, but you can't ask Google to reveal how they calculate your company's ranking.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    3. Re:Public Domain by hawaiian717 · · Score: 2

      In principle, UrbanHail seems to be not significantly different than travel metasearch sites like Hipmunk and Kayak, which search several provider sites (both airline/hotel websites as well as third-party agency sites like Priceline, Expedia, Vayama, etc) and then refer people to another site for the booking.

      --
      End of Line.
    4. Re:Public Domain by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      But this does not require them to license their developer API to anyone and everyone, for any purpose.

      Agreed.

      I'm not aware of any commercial enterprise that licenses their API for use by competitors.

      This isn't a competitor, in the normal sense of the word. It's a price comparison service. The company advertises itself as the "Kayak" of ride services.

      While I absolutely agree that Uber may have no obligation to provide this, it seems like a really stupid business decision to do what they're doing. If they are offering better rates than most other services, this is a missed opportunity for business. If they are offering worse rates (or rates that vary and are sometimes more, sometimes less), lots of people will eventually realize this and use the app to find alternatives rather than paying an "Uber premium."

      Either way, the only ways a business can survive this sort of thing is by (1) already having "cornered the market" so there's a majority customer base that's dedicated to your brand, or (2) providing a service that's so superior that customers will continue to flock to your brand and not even wonder about comparisons to other (potentially cheaper) options.

      I don't think Uber has either one of these going for it -- it's a relatively new market. It seems that an app like this is begging to go viral -- particularly given complaints about "surge pricing," etc. Once people realize the premium they are paying over a cab or other alternative, they may make different choices... and thus more and more people may be drawn to use an app like this for comparison. If Uber shuts itself out of competition now, it may just find itself left out of the loop completely in a few years.

    5. Re:Public Domain by hawaiian717 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      True, but the way I see it, the airlines and third party booking sites feel it's worthwhile to have their options appear on metasearch sites. The point I was trying to make is that there are examples for allowing "competitors" to use their API. Also there's a history in the travel industry of having shared booking channels in the form of the GDS systems (Sabre, Apollo, Shares, etc).

      I suppose the difference is that there are a lot more competitors than in ridesharing, where Uber is clearly the dominant player. Since most people are aware of Uber, there is not much incentive for them to participate in third-party apps since if the choice is "use a third party app and always use the cheapest" or "just use Uber since the price is probably close enough not to matter", Uber prefers the latter.

      And back to the airline industry, Southwest does the same thing. You may notice their fares don't show up in metasearch or third party booking sites. They have established a reputation as "the low fare airline" so it's not to their benefit to make it easy to see how their fares compare to others.

      --
      End of Line.
  7. This is why the free market sucks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Allowing customers to compare prices is a slippery slope. What we need is to hand all market control to a small number of really big companies like Uber, Apple and Comcast. That will guarantee low prices and great products and services without the danger of a free market hurting everyone.

  8. W2 employees, food safety. Taxis are contractors by raymorris · · Score: 2

    Two major differences in your scenario. McDonald's has W2 employees, your hypothetical has contractors. Taxi companies, including Uber, use contractors.

    Each McDonald's has a food safety permit, and in many states each employee does as well. If they used contractors, the contractors would by law be required to have a permit for commercial food preparation in all states. Much as traditional taxi drivers have the appropriate permits. Uber drivers of course do NOT have proper commercial driver's licenses, in 99% of cases.

    It's unfortunate that taxis, unlike food handlers, have developed a special relationship with politicians in many cities and ask their politicians to improperly restrict licensing. For some reason, the taxi, garbage, casino, and solar-electric industries have a lot of political graft and corruption. That's the real difference between taxis and fast food. Nail salons have a lot of Korean owners, convenience stores are popular with Indian entrepeneurs, and taxis are popular with crooked people who engage in political corruption.

  9. Just let them disrupt by monkeyxpress · · Score: 2

    This is going to sound controversial, but I think we are at the point where we would be best to let these mega-corps go crazy disrupting industries and livelihoods en-mass. Big money has won, and workers are just fighting a rear guard action attempting to slow down the destruction of the middle class.

    The reality though, is that none of this can sustain itself inside a democracy. Once enough of the middle class realize that even modest dreams (a home, stable income, time to pursue their own interest) are no longer attainable, there will be a political backlash. In my view, if that moment comes sooner, the backlash might be someone progressive, modifying the rules of capitalism to bring some sensibleness back to the setup. If the process is left too late, anger will build and I fear the backlash will be a coin-toss as to whether it is better or worse than what we have now.

    Free-marketers like Uber just cannot see that there is a bigger 'free market' than the economic system. It is called the will of the masses, and even without democracy, it has proven to be quite capable of disrupting the rules when its interests are not met.

  10. Re:How to retaliate. by SethJohnson · · Score: 2

    Uber management did NOT think this through.

    I think you're right and they've adopted the ego of a 900-lb-gorilla monopolist a bit prematurely in their lifecycle.

    As a further example, was the game-of-chicken Uber played with the City of Austin. As an example set to frighten other cities that might try to stand up to the bully, they left Austin. But they left a community fertile with tech startups that have jumped at the opportunity to fill their vacuum. These are people / companies that NEVER would have gotten funded to compete against Uber prior to its departure. They left the factory in place, so to speak. The message to other cities looks to be that there is life without Uber.

  11. Strictly speaking, no by dcooper_db9 · · Score: 2

    I don't know if pricing data is public domain or fair use but it cannot be both. Fair use is a term applied to the lawful use of material that is otherwise protected by copyright.

    --
    I do not block ads. I do block third party scripts.