Slashdot Mirror


Tom Wheeler Defeats the Broadband Industry: Net Neutrality Wins In Court (bloomberg.com)

Andrew M Harris and Todd Shields, reporting for Bloomberg: The Federal Communications Commission won a major appeals court ruling supporting its efforts to prevent broadband Internet service providers from favoring some types of web traffic over others. The Washington-based court Tuesday denied challenges to the federal government's so-called net neutrality regulations, which were backed by President Barack Obama. The ruling hands a victory to those who champion the notion of an open internet where service providers are prevented from offering speedier lanes to content providers willing to pay for them. It's a defeat for challengers including AT&T Inc., Verizon Communications Inc. and Comcast Corp., which said the rule would discourage innovation and investment.FCC Chairman Tom Wheeler said, "Today's ruling is a victory for consumers and innovators who deserve unfettered access to the entire web, and it ensures the Internet remains a platform for unparalleled innovation, free expression and economic growth. After a decade of debate and legal battles, today's ruling affirms the Commission's ability to enforce the strongest possible internet protections -- both on fixed and mobile networks -- that will ensure the internet remains open, now and in the future."

36 of 165 comments (clear)

  1. Great News by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This effectively means it's settled. Comcast et al could still request an en banc hearing from the full Court of Appeals, but that's unlikely to succeed. They could appeal to the US Supreme Court, but with the current 4-4 split on the court, the best they could hope for is that the USSC would split and leave the Appeals Court ruling standing as is, at the same time they'd risk a 5-3 decision affirming net neutrality depending on how Kennedy swings.

    Of course, this could still be overturned if Trump wins and gets to override the pick for the next Justice, nevermind that a GOP congress plus Trump would be free to pass whatever anti-net neutrality legislation they want, or to replace the pro-neutrality majority of the FCC commissioners with a Republican one.

    1. Re:Great News by danomac · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Response translated from AT&T, Verizon, and Comcast: "Waaah, we can't upcharge for any existing or new service that comes along on the internet." Discourage innovation my ass. I'd say it's more likely that people will develop for an open internet than a closed one. After all, the developers would the ones having to pay the ISPs as well as the ISP's customers getting charged more for the service. I don't think that would go well in the long run.

    2. Re:Great News by rsborg · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This effectively means it's settled. Comcast et al could still request an en banc hearing from the full Court of Appeals, but that's unlikely to succeed. They could appeal to the US Supreme Court, but with the current 4-4 split on the court, the best they could hope for is that the USSC would split and leave the Appeals Court ruling standing as is, at the same time they'd risk a 5-3 decision affirming net neutrality depending on how Kennedy swings.

      Of course, this could still be overturned if Trump wins and gets to override the pick for the next Justice, nevermind that a GOP congress plus Trump would be free to pass whatever anti-net neutrality legislation they want, or to replace the pro-neutrality majority of the FCC commissioners with a Republican one.

      It's really pretty staggering, considering that Democrats were supposed to be the "party of RIAA" back in the Clinton days (see Hollings, Senator from Disney). Sure, Lamar Alexander (R-Asshole) has been pretty good at picking up all of Hollings business once Hollings left Congress, but it's pretty interesting that the anti-free-internet banner has been picked up so thoroughly by the Republicans.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    3. Re:Great News by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They could appeal to the US Supreme Court, but with the current 4-4 split on the court, the best they could hope for is that the USSC would split and leave the Appeals Court ruling standing as is

      Unless you're the Oracle of Delphi it's extremely dangerous to try and predict how SCOTUS Justices will swing on any given issue. They rarely break down along predictable partisan lines, even on the highly divisive political issues of the day (e.g., Roberts on the ACA) never mind something as technical as network neutrality and telecom regulation. People who try to politicize the Court miss the point; I suspect Liberals could find more than a few things to admire about Scalia (Kelo v. New London) if they were honest with themselves, as well as a few things to hate about the Justices on "their" side (Gonzales v. Raich). Conservatives could do the same, again, assuming they were willing to be honest with themselves, rather than blindly rooting for the "home team."

      Anyhow, I digress. I would not even venture a guess as to how any of them would vote on NN. If you forced me at gunpoint to make a prediction it would be that they decline to issue any sweeping ruling; they'd kick it back down to the Appeals Court, 8-0, with clarification on one or two items of dispute.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:Great News by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      but it's pretty interesting that the anti-free-internet banner has been picked up so thoroughly by the Republicans.

      They don't see it that way; principled Republicans see a slippery slope now that the FCC is regulating the internet, which you may recall got to be what it is today largely because it was unregulated. Are such fears grounded in reality? Hard to say; come back in 20 years and let's see what the internet looks like then.

      (Unprincipled Republicans are crony capitalists, more worried about their Big Telecom donors than Big FCC; condemn them if you'd like, but be honest enough to admit there are at least as many Crony Capitalists among the Democrats, including the one that is now their presumptive nominee for POTUS.)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    5. Re:Great News by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      It's settled, legally, but don't think the fight is over. The GOP in Congress will still try to prevent the FCC from enforcing Net Neutrality via methods like defunding the FCC. And, if Trump wins, expect that Wheeler will be pushed out in favor of someone who will do what the industry wants the FCC to do.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    6. Re:Great News by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Discourage innovation my ass.

      You're confused my friend. They mean it will discourage innovation in their price gouging -- I mean -- strategies and business models.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    7. Re:Great News by kqs · · Score: 5, Insightful

      now that the FCC is regulating the internet, which you may recall got to be what it is today largely because it was unregulated.

      In the late 80s, the internet was just this weird academic network that could not make money so no corporations paid any attention to it. Businesses were fighting over various online services (were you on Compuserve, or AOL, or The Source?). Then the government funded the NSFnet, and let outside companies join onto the NSFnet. And still nobody cared about the internet.

      Then government-funded CERN invented the WWW, and government-funded NCSA invented Mosaic, and people started to care about the internet.

      So "unregulated" for a bunch of government-funded projects is a very relative term. Far less regulated than the other online services, I'll grant you, but those were all regulated by their corporate owners, not by the government.

      And that's really the lesson here. The internet won because it had far less overall regulation, while the other services were locked down and controlled. Now, the big ISPs want to "regulate" their pipes. The government passed a regulation, net-neutrality, which says "nobody can lock-down and control their pipes in certain uncompetitive ways". So, I think that you are arguing for very high (but corporate) regulation, and the NN folks are arguing for very low (but governmental) regulation.

      You want no regulation? As long as it makes money, that cannot happen. But we get to choose between one hands-off sheriff, or a bunch of small despotic warlords. And I'm happy with how the court has chosen.

    8. Re:Great News by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      They don't see it that way; principled Republicans see a slippery slope now that the FCC is regulating the internet, which you may recall got to be what it is today largely because it was unregulated. Are such fears grounded in reality? Hard to say; come back in 20 years and let's see what the internet looks like then.

      The FCC is regulating the internet to be fair - nothing more. The internet got the way it is because it was unregulated, but fair. It was only in the past decade that tit was possible to be unfair - that you could limit Netflix usage while keeping speeds up to your services, for example. Then you could bill Netflix some money so you could give them the bandwidth they had before.

      Or an ISP could jitter VoIP packets to make their telephone offerings better and make competing solutions worse.

      All the FCC has done was put an end to such practices by making it so you cannot prefer a provider over another. Imagine the fun that could be had by Comcast if Comcast decided to pit Sony and Microsoft against each other - perhaps it's Monday, so Microsoft gets to have low-lag online gaming. But not on Tuesdays, because Sony paid for Tuesdays.

    9. Re:Great News by ubrgeek · · Score: 5, Funny

      > were you on Compuserve, or AOL, or The Source?

      Yes. Now get off my lawn.

      --
      Bark less. Wag more.
    10. Re:Great News by Shakrai · · Score: 2

      See my other reply. Most everything that you're worrying about were theoretical abuses. The Netflix issue is the only thing you mention that actually happened and it's still unclear to me how much of that was Reed Hastings trying to offload his cost of doing business onto others -- Netflix does not have completely clean hands here or elsewhere -- and how much was the ISPs being dicks. I suspect a little bit of Column A and a little bit of Column B.

      Meanwhile, as I said in my other post, caps and zero rating are fait accomplis, and they're doing real damage to the internet. This is and always was FUD. This and this are real and the FCC is doing nothing about them. Color me skeptical that they're likely to intervene at this point, as I said, they're fait accomplis. We spent a decade fighting over abuses that never actually happened while the ISPs were busy building a fence around one killer app (video) that directly competes with them, while precluding the emergence of future killer apps, and massively increasing their own revenues to boot.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    11. Re:Great News by geoskd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Clinton is just as much (possibly more) a big business shill as Trump.

      Trump is pro business in the he wants limited liability sense

      Clinton is pro business in the already sold out to specific ones sense

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    12. Re:Great News by inode_buddha · · Score: 3, Informative

      The FCC hasn't claimed anything. The Telco reform act of 1996 (Bill Clinton) gives this authority, atop the Act of 1934 which created the FCC in the first place. So, if you have an issue with it, you should take it up with your congressional representatives.

      --
      C|N>K
    13. Re:Great News by Shakrai · · Score: 2

      On the one hand, you worry about the possibility of the FCC being abusive, ignore that the FCC stepping in almost certainly is partly why AT&T's CEO's plan never came to pass

      I don't think AT&T had a "plan" per se; I think their CEO foolishly ran his mouth, lamenting that he couldn't double dip, and the net community ran with it. There was a lot of FUD on our side of the issue, best exemplified by this graphic, and for awhile we were conflating long standing peering practices/disputes as network neutrality issues and the like.

      Do I think that AT&T would have liked to charge Google for using "his" pipes? Absolutely. Do I think he would have had the balls to actually do it? Can't say. I do feel like we focused on the wrong issues though and I'm not so sure that in 20 years we're going to fondly remember this decision. I'd like to think that we will but only time will tell. Remember, what the FCC giveth the FCC can taketh away.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    14. Re:Great News by Coren22 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Suspiciously, the post above me appears completely blank, is anyone else having this issue?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  2. Subject of Comment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm happier to see that this fellow has more integrity than most thought he'd have, with him being a former lobbyist for these cable companies.

  3. Innovation by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm trying hard to think no of anything even marginally resembling an innovation which has come from Comcast - but I'm drawing a blank. So I can't see that having it their own way up until now has resulted in what they claim will be stifled by these rules.

    On a side note: Tom Wheeler, I think many of us were wrong about you. Thank you!

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Innovation by wiggles · · Score: 4, Funny

      They've had lots of innovation!

      They figured out:

      * data caps

      * Double charging for the same service

      * Outsourced customer service to lowest bidder

      * Customer "retention"

    2. Re:Innovation by Lendrick · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Furthermore, I can't imagine any "innovations" that are good for the consumer coming out of all this. All Comcast and Time Warner are doing is "innovating" ways to force people to spend more money even though they're already paying ten times what the service is actually worth.

      What we really need is a national law that outlaws local internet franchise agreements and prevents states and localities from outlawing municipal broadband. I'm lucky enough to live an in area with multiple ISPs, and (surprise surprise) nobody here has implemented data caps. I don't think capitalism is a perfect solution to all of our problems, but it does seem to work reasonably well for keeping internet prices under control.

    3. Re:Innovation by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm trying hard to think no of anything even marginally resembling an innovation which has come from Comcast - but I'm drawing a blank.

      You got a cheap +5 there, because Comcast is an easy target, but let me play devil's advocate and give you two things they've done right:

      1. They had IPv6 for residential customers years before any other major ISP.
      2. They actually invest money in their infrastructure, even in markets where they face no meaningful competition, unlike the asshats at Time Warner Cable. TWC left my hometown to rot on the vine; we didn't see DOCSIS 3.0 until two or three years ago and to this day still have speed/capacity issues at peak times. Go 20 miles to our immediate South, into Comcast territory, and you can get three digit speeds (we top out at 50mbit/s) that are actually consistently delivered to you.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:Innovation by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

      I agree with you on both points (#1 wholeheartedly, #2 less so)... but neither one qualifies as "innovation".

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    5. Re:Innovation by pak9rabid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Don't forget terminating peoples' BitTorrent connections prematurely by injecting RST packets.

  4. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by StormReaver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can not identify an argument for "net neutrality", that would not also not apply to attempts to prioritize â" such as by designating traffic lanes for them â" buses, bicycles, cars with electronic toll-payment transponders, and even for emergency vehicles.

    Perhaps this will help:

    I can not identify an argument for "apples" that would not also not apply to "oranges."

    Hope that helps clarify it a bit.

  5. The Two Lanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not difficult to work out. If you have a company whose job is road maintenance, say they successfully argue that certain people need to cover the distance quicker. These people would pay extra for the privilege of faster transit, and after all, everyone else still has the original road.

    Only in time, the original road is neglected, it becomes full of pot holes. If any expansion is made, it's made to the faster road, since that makes more money. So as the weeks pass, the original road falls into worse condition, unable to cope with the volume of traffic which is always growing. If anyone complains, then they are just told to pay for the faster lane.

    Eventually the original road is barely navigable, and anyone wanting to travel is forced to pay the extra for the toll road. Eventually, the original road closes. Before long, an idea is floated for a new super-fast road...

    1. Re:The Two Lanes by Qzukk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      everyone else still has the original road

      That's the first lie right there. The first thing they do is fence off the leftmost lane to make the toll lane, which of course needs its own shoulder in case someone breaks down, so better fence off a second lane too. Now, the non paying traffic that was packed in a 4 lane freeway is absolutely crammed into two lanes, or at best mushed into three skinny lanes. Unless, of course, the driver pays to drive in that nice wide, fast lane.

      But here's the difference between toll lanes and the internet: I get to choose if I want to suffer in the slow lane on the highway or pay the $1.30 to get in the toll lane.

      On the internet, these decisions are made for me. For instance, maybe Bing paid $50 million so that anyone going to bing.com gets to take the fast lane. The choice of what quality I get isn't mine, either I go where Comcast tells me I can go quickly, or I go where I want and suffer.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  6. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 2

    "Only vehicles built by Ford can drive in this neighborhood."

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  7. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by tobiasly · · Score: 2

    favoring some types of web traffic over others

    I can not identify an argument for "net neutrality", that would not also not apply to attempts to prioritize — such as by designating traffic lanes for them — buses, bicycles, cars with electronic toll-payment transponders, and even for emergency vehicles.

    In fact, I suspect strongly, that, had the Internet-service provision been in government's hands already, the same people arguing for "net neutrality" today, would've been arguing for "sensible measures" to prioritize "special" traffic.

    And vice versa — had private corporations been in charge of streets and highways, their attempts at prioritization would've attracted the same criticism currently hitting the ISPs.

    Some neutralities are more neutral than others...

    I've always viewed the entire net neutrality debate as a (hopefully) temporary sideshow while/until we fix the larger problem of lack of competition. The only reason (e.g.) Comcast is able to pull the shenanigans that they are is because we can't go anywhere else. Otherwise, if an ISP decided to slow down Netflix and try to extort money from them, their customers would just leave.

  8. Re:Major Loss for Internet Freedom by anegg · · Score: 4, Interesting
    One of the things I like about "the Internet" is that Internet Service Providers (the actual entities that were found to be Title II communications carriers) are most emphatically NOT the Internet. In the days of CompuServe, AOL, GENIE, et al., that confusion was understandable, because the only part of the service that wasn't run by the commercial provider was the actual analog telephone circuit used to carry the modulated data. Now, however, the major ISPs have steadily reduced most elements of service that used to be expected: no FTP services, no web site hosting except for very lame web site hosting, no USENET news feeds; the only thing most of them do except provide transit of IP packets from a subscriber's premise is provide e-mail hosting.

    The Internet is a grand bazaar, forum, and meeting place, and what is needed on the parts of the absolutely necessary firms that transport our communications traffic to/from the Internet is for them to most emphatically not muck with it, whether that mucking comes in the form of "super-cookies" (injections of information into what should be inviolate virtual connections), invading people's privacy by tracking what they are doing, or trying to enhance their profits by trying to charge both ends for the same traffic.

    There IS honor in providing an ordinary, plebeian transport service, albeit that honor may come with lower profit margins. Over the road truckers don't sort through our packages in order to build dossiers about what we buy, nor do they insert GPS trackers into packages in order to see where they are going. We wouldn't stand for them trying to monetize the delivery service they are already being paid to provide. We should expect no less from Internet Service Providers.

  9. Re:It's all so confusing... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 4, Informative

    In this case, the head of the FCC was a member of a cable company lobbying group and was widely expected to be yet another pro-cable company shill. Except, Tom Wheeler apparently missed the memo and was mistakenly handed one that said "protect the consumers" instead. His run as head of the FCC has been surprisingly fantastic and I hope he continues on to give the cable companies headaches for years to come.

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  10. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You're confusing traffic shaping with prioritization.

    Doing something like prioritizing VOIP packets over FTP, for instance, is perfectly acceptable, because the reason for doing it is that VOIP traffic is much more affected by latency than FTP. If I'm trying to talk via VOIP at the same time I'm FTPing a large file, and the network hits congestion, I'm generally much better off having the FTP transfer slow down than I am having my VOIP throughput degrade. It's still a neutral network because it doesn't care what VOIP service I use, as long as it's standard VOIP traffic. This is a "Cars with 4 people/buses/etc can use the left lane during rush hour, everyone else has to use the right 3 lanes" situation.

    What we're talking about is something like Comcast or AT&T trying to make _their_ Streaming Video/VOIP/FTP service work better than Netflix or whomever, by deliberately making Netflix worse, or forcing Netflix to pay extra to not get degraded. They can do this in a variety of ways, including throttling any Netflix connection, while exempting their own, or putting in Data Caps that apply to Netflix traffic, but not to their own streaming service. This is a "GM owns this toll road, so the charge for GM vehicles is $1.00, but the charge for Ford vehicles is $10.00" situation, and that's what you can't do according to Net Neutrality.

  11. Re:Traffic lanes designated to buses or bicycles n by anegg · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The only way I can think of addressing the problem of a lack of competition in the last mile of communications services is for local governments to provide the communications service as a basic utility, the same as water, sewer, trash pickup. Or maybe its provided by a utility provider like electricity or gas. Then companies like Comcast don't need to be a "monopoly" cable provider for a town or county; other companies like Verizon don't need to be a "monopoly" telephony provider either - anyone who wants to provide services (any data service, including telephony data and what we now thing of as cable television service data) can, with the services riding over the utility communications network. Perhaps that is what we are backing into, with ISPs being declared to be the utilities that they so obviously seem to be. Couple that with VoIP telephone services being broken free from cable companies and RBOCs, and the move to "cut the cord" with A/V entertainment services, and pretty soon there aren't any government-protected monopolies for phone and cable... just a basic communications utility provide by or on behalf of the local government, and a multitude of service providers, all competing openly with one another.

  12. zero rating / tmobile binge on by Wycliffe · · Score: 2

    How does the decision affect zero rating and stuff like tmobile's binge on? Although I'm completely in support of net neutrality and all companies should be treated the same, I do support the idea of having different types of traffic. For instance making bittorent traffic lower priority than realtime streaming. This should preferably be controlled by the consumer though where they get some benefit for sending less traffic over the fast lane.

  13. Net neutrality is not neutral by mveloso · · Score: 2

    I know it's popular because the internets want to be free, but I'd ask everyone to actually read the "net neutrality" regulations yourself. It's not about net neutrality per se, it's about something completely different.

    For example, all the peering agreements suddenly come under FCC jurisdiction. Do asymmetric traffic charges count as "favoritism?" Do you even have any understanding of what that means?

    The FCC rule means that everything internet-related comes under their jurisdiction.

    What this means, in short, is your rates will go up...forever.

  14. Re:It's all so confusing... by Andrio · · Score: 2

    John Oliver did a show last year where he mentioned that Tom Wheeler, head of the FCC, was a former telecom lobbyist. He then said that it was like hiring a dingo to watch over your baby.

    Tom Wheeler responded by saying he was not a dingo.

    I guess he was speaking metaphorically and literally when he said that.

    --
    The Internet King? I wonder if he could provide faster nudity.
  15. Re:It's all so confusing... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 4, Informative

    I remember that one. Given Wheeler's background and the history of FCC chiefs in general, it wasn't unrealistic to assume that he would be a horrible FCC chief who would only think of what the industry wanted. A lot of people are very happy that he's not a dingo. (Well, except for the cable companies but I don't care about them!)

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  16. They'll keep trying by emaname · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The broadband companies are going to keep trying until they get the answer they want. Then once they do, there will be no going back.

    Personally I feel it's just a matter of time before they monetize everything on the internet.

    This isn't a great comparison, but I remember cable TV was promoted as "commercial free TV." ie, You could watch TV without commercials.

    Yeah... well... that worked out great.

    --
    An effective "democracy" creates the illusion the people have a say in their government.