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WikiLeaks Releases 300K Turkey Government Emails In Response To Erdogan's Post-Coup Purges (rt.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from RT: Despite a massive cyberattack on its website, WikiLeaks has published the first batch of nearly 300,000 emails from the Turkish ruling AKP party's internal server and thousands of attached files in response to the Ankara government's widespread post-coup purges. Some 294,548 emails pertaining to Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (AKP) were made public on Tuesday at 11:00pm Ankara time. WikiLeaks says that the release of almost 300,000 email bodies together with several thousand attached files, is just part one in the series and encompasses 762 mailboxes beginning with 'A' through to 'I.' All emails are attributed to "akparti.org.tr," the primary domain of the main political force in the country, and cover a period from 2010 up until July 6, 2016, just a week before the failed military coup. The NGO also revealed that one of the emails contained an Excel database of the cell phone numbers of AKP deputies. Prior to the release WikiLeaks suffered a "sustained attack" as it warned that Turkish government entities might try to interfere with the publication of the AKP material. The attacks are still continuing and users are experiencing difficulties in accessing the material. WikiLeaks reassured the public that they are "winning" the battle. A few hours after the release, WikiLeaks tweeted a screenshot showing the database to be blocked in Turkey, claiming that Ankara "ordered [the release] to be blocked nationwide." More than 200 people have died and over 1,400 injured from the attempted coup. Thousands of people have also been detained and/or lost their posts across the judiciary, military, interior ministry and civil service sectors. The Turkish president Erdogan is blaming the U.S.-based cleric Fethullah Gulen for orchestrating the attempted coup.
There are emails showing that the President made this coup happen in order to weed out rebels and to strengthen his power?
Fascism is fascism, even when the fascist got the most votes.
~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
Is there anything good in there? All I see is stuff about rejecting Blackberry phones because they're backdoored and Nigerian scammers:
************
We are rejected Blackberry,because your cemaats inteligent persons connected on Blackberry > While we are prefer blackjack,thank you and yours cemaats inteligent persons. > Yours Sincelery... > Cüneyt DLER
**********************
"My Husband Mr Tayeb El Safi was the Minister of Economy and Commerce and also right-hand man to the ex Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and He died along with our former-President Muammar Gaddafi and our properties was destroyed and seized by the new Government, we managed to make our way to nearby country Burkina Faso where we are leaving now under the (UNHCR) my dear seriously I have important secret to reveal to you if you are sincere and willing, Thanking you a lot in anticipation of your quick response. I will give you details in my next mail after receiving your Data information’s, such as your full name, Age and your country and acceptance mail to help me and my children. Have a nice day, while I hope to hear from you soon. please reply me at this E-mail Address: mariatayebelsafi11@ig.com.br Yours sincerely Mrs. Mariam Tayeb. El Safi Hsbc Bank London Uk, the sum of 6.5 Million Pounds and I also have some funds that was deposited in a security company as consignment by my husband here in Burkina Faso so let me know the one that will be easy for you, preferable coming here to retrieve the one that is here about 4.3 Million Dollars"
I'm glad this is happening. After reading everything I can on the matter I still can't really tell what's happening. If anyone here has an interesting opinion, I'd love to hear it. What I thought was that it didn't make sense that the military would be working with Gulen since he's an Islamic cleric and the military is, supposedly, pretty secular, however, the Turkish government has begun revoking the teaching licenses for teachers who supposedly support Gulen or probably, more accurately, true democracy.
What's your spin?
But something really doesn't seem right with this coup.
I suspect it's a power grab rather than backlash from a coup.
Despite the fact that this is how it is reported, it's somewhat misleading to call it a coup. While it's extra legal, it's been reported that the Turkish constitution puts military in charge of being the last-ditch effort of dissolving and reforming the government if the government goes too far in making Turkey a non-secular state. Given that the current President of Turkey belongs to the party which officially started out as an Islamist party, but then de jour (albeit not necessarily de facto) abandoned its Islamic direction, it stands to reason that making a decision on whether the ruling party is trying to undermine secular institutions is legitimately the military's judgement call.
It's not a clean solution to having a system of checks and balances to ensure that no one branch of the government can completely dismantle all other branches, but it's also not a blanket attempt at a power grab which is usually associated with a coup.
Certainly, having so many dead an injured over, what amounts to, a political dispute is tragic. But having a secular state descent into a theocracy would almost certainly result in much more losses of life and civic freedoms and, therefore, would be a larger tragedy.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
> So long as Erdogan does as he is told, nothing. So long as he is our bastard, he can do what he wants.
Yeah, just like that guy in Irak...
That RT has become a major source of news that you can't get on most major news channels.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I don't think Bush listened to Kissinger on Iraq. Or anyone with a lick of sense, for that matter.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Snowden is a communist KGB scumbag traitor. Where are the wikileaks from Russia, Chinese, Iranian, North Korean and Pakistani server?
Right. Silence.
So long as Erdogan does as he is told, nothing. So long as he is our bastard, he can do what he wants.
But Erdogan does not doing what he is told. America would like to see Turkey become more democratic, secular, and bound to European institutions, including NATO, and eventually the EU. We would like Turkey to be tolerant of the Turkish Kurds in the south east, and support the Iraqi and Syrian Kurds in the fight against ISIS. Erdogan is doing the opposite of all these things. He is undermining democracy, arresting judges, and rounding up political opponents. He is promoting Islamic law, and imposing Halal restrictions on pork and alcohol onto non-muslims. He is provoking and attacking the Kurds. He was lukewarm in the fight against ISIS until they started setting off bombs in Turkish cities (which he tried to pin on the Kurds).
More likely he did listen to Brzezinski.
Destabilization does have a purpose.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
So long as Erdogan does as he is told, nothing. So long as he is our bastard, he can do what he wants.
But Erdogan does not doing what he is told. America would like to see Turkey become more democratic, secular, and bound to European institutions, including NATO, and eventually the EU. We would like Turkey to be tolerant of the Turkish Kurds in the south east, and support the Iraqi and Syrian Kurds in the fight against ISIS. Erdogan is doing the opposite of all these things. He is undermining democracy, arresting judges, and rounding up political opponents. He is promoting Islamic law, and imposing Halal restrictions on pork and alcohol onto non-muslims. He is provoking and attacking the Kurds. He was lukewarm in the fight against ISIS until they started setting off bombs in Turkish cities (which he tried to pin on the Kurds).
What a load of horseshit. The US does not give a damn whether Turkey is a democracy or how they treat the kurds. What they care about is resources deals and access to host military installations in the region and using them to help isolate those that won't play ball.
Turkey has turned it's back on Ataturk's dream of a modern secular state, and is destined to become yet another muzzy hell-hole.
Destabilization at that time served to annoy the USSR. There no longer is a USSR to annoy, I can see no reason that destabilizing Iraq was a good idea (and it wasn't Bush's goal, anyway. He thought it would magically become a democratic, free market paradise).
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
What has to cement the Turkish Islamic empire the most is the unbridled purification of the court. The media were already restrained (internet, prohibition of AV media, nationalization of newspapers and conglomerates, government control of the news, persecution of journalists and bloggers, intimidation of foreign correspondents). The purpose of this internal putsch was the abolishment of the separation of powers. 542 administrative judges detained 2,204 prosecuted. 48 members of the State Council, two members of the Constitutional Court, 140 members of the Court of Appeal. The Turkish secular state is buried now. More Koranic schools, increasing violence against women and secularists (such as the non-sanctioned attack on Radiohead fans during Ramadan), stop of prosecution for sex with minors and severe punishment for child rapists, the astronomical increase in alcohol prices, the plan to establish alcohol-free zones. The narcissism of Erdogan (for over 2,000 processes for defamation) goes beyond his megalomania (the construction of the expensive White House, the proliferation of mosques, the scornful disregard of the protests in Taksim Square in 2013) which defies imagination. Erdogan has only one goal: to cultivate a godly generation. Say, one country, one people, one leader. Hitler was inspired by Atatürk. Erdogan now is inspired by Hitler. Even with its fifth column in the rest of Europe. But one man benefited from the outlawing of any opposition. That Europe is now cheering "the salvation of democracy" is particularly cowardly. Even with the loaded Turkish army tradition. Chamberlain did this as well in 1938. Europe forgets Erdogan recently glorified the approach of Nazi Germany. That nightmare in Turkey closer than expected.
America has no interest in seeing any country become more democratic, least of all itself. America has been co-opted for the 0.001%, and true democracy stands in the way of the rentier class. NATO isn't democratic, the EU isn't democratic, and of course The Sultan isn't democratic.
Erdogan is being permitted to do whatever the hell he wants, so long as it is NOT democratic. Do not be mistaken.
Turkey should be divided, and it will be eventually, but not for it's own good, nor that of its many tribes and peoples, but for the benefit of the global oligarchy.
Funny - time was, even I would've branded me as a conspirational zealot.
That falls under "or anyone with a lick of sense".
Brzezinski is insane.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
I don't think he thought about it.
"Mission Accomplished" was to be a popular wartime President with a war happening on the opposite side of the world to where the voters lived.
Winning or losing was going to be somebody else's problem after his second term.
If you're defense contractor it was a *brilliant* idea.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Yes, but that doesn't mean that even more insane people don't listen to him.
The Iraq was maybe the only REALLY stable state in the whole area. Sure, Saddam was an asshole and he was no longer an US ally (like he was back in the 1980s... oh good ol' times), but he kept the lid on the pot of shit. The Iraq was not only the only state where terrorism could not get a food on the ground (because Saddam was about as much Muslim as the average politician around here is Christian, i.e. at best with a lip service to appease the idiots, but he didn't have to appease idiots, so...). And that country served as a wedge between Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria.
Now we experience what happens when that wedge is removed. We now basically have a war that we can prolong infinitely. As long as we need one, they'll deliver.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Where do you get the idea from that the US gives a shit about Turkey being democratic? What matters is that the li'l mustache keeps his mouth shut, stays in the NATO and deploys his troops where we want them to, as long as he does that he can round up all judges and Kurds and whatever else he feels like.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
You may recall that 9/11 happened before the war in Iraq. Bush ran on a domestic program and war was thrust upon his administration by Bin Laden, al Qaida, and the Taliban.
"Mission Accomplished" referred to the mission performed by the aircraft carrier where that banner was displayed as it was returning home. But if you're just engaging in smear and not trying to further understanding, well then ..... "Mission Accomplished."
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
lololol
as long as turky moves American OIL up from South Sudan, through ISIS protected territory into Europe to fuck the Russians, they can do whatever they want.
Clearly you have a selective memory of the 911 investigation. The war that was thrust upon the Bush administration was the result of incompetence. Here's the thing with incompetents: they are more "unlucky" than others, because they don't do the basic things that protect against easy attacks, so it escalates quickly. Opposite with highly competent people: they are more "lucky" than others, because they do all the right things to nip problems in the bud, so it's plain sailing after that.
Anyway, please continue living in denial, I think we will be getting a second example of the "unlucky" incompetents for the rest of the class after November.
You seem to have omitted a few important details, such as Saddam''s funding and support of terrorism, training terrorists, and providing them refuge in Iraq.
Then there is the fact that he kept attacking nations in the region - invaded Iran, invaded and tried to annex Kuwait, attacked Saudi Arabia, attacked Israel. I seem to recall there were "border issues" with some of the other neighbors.
Nor was Iraq particularly stable. There were various rebellions again Saddam, assassination attempts, and various other issues. You may recall that some of these were put down by using chemical weapons against civilian populations.
And Saddam wasn't much of an ally. The US didn't want Iran to beat Iraq and threaten the entire region beyond the danger it already posed. Just think how lovely things would be if Iraq had collapsed and Iran leveraged that into controlling not only Iran's oil, but Iraq, and Saudi Arabia's.
As far as weapons go, Saddam got something like 90% of his weapons from the Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact, China, or other communist bloc states. Most of the rest was from France.
We now basically have a war that we can prolong infinitely. As long as we need one, they'll deliver.
So what you are really saying is that Muslims don't have their own values and goals that they pursue independently of what the US or the West does? Really?
Do you know what the general terms are for when one side in a conflict (war) ceases to defend itself? Defeat and surrender.
How do you think you'd get along with your would be overlords?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
"You seem to have omitted a few important details, such as Saddam''s funding and support of terrorism, training terrorists, and providing them refuge in Iraq."
Got any facts on that?
I'm also surprised by the compete lack of interest in the USA regarding the Chilcot report. Is everyone in the US pretending that it has nothing to do with them? Why isn't Bush being grilled over misleading the people of the US and the UK? Blaire may end up in the Hague over this. Will the US just ignore it?
You seem to have omitted a few important details, such as Saddam''s funding and support of terrorism, training terrorists, and providing them refuge in Iraq.
You might want to support this claim with some evidence. I have heard that a few times now but it just doesn't hold much water. Saddam's interest in terrorism has been slim to nil, mostly because he knew VERY well that he's sitting on a powder keg with Sunni and Shiites. The last thing he needed was religion suddenly playing a major role in his country.
Then there is the fact that he kept attacking nations in the region - invaded Iran, invaded and tried to annex Kuwait, attacked Saudi Arabia, attacked Israel. I seem to recall there were "border issues" with some of the other neighbors.
It's not fair to blame Saddam for a war that he waged for the US. That 8 years in the 80s against Iran was backed and paid for by us. The war against Kuwait was on the other hand mostly him being a bit stroppy after getting a "thanks, idiot" from us when presenting his bill for the war. Basically he just wanted to be paid for his service and noticed that it's easier to cash in Kuwait than Iran. He sure was no saint, not by a long shot, but you have to admit, we cut him a raw deal and he just found a way out.
Nor was Iraq particularly stable. There were various rebellions again Saddam, assassination attempts, and various other issues. You may recall that some of these were put down by using chemical weapons against civilian populations.
You see, the Iraq is one of the few Muslim countries that isn't ONLY Sunnite or ONLY Shiite. It's a about 30/70 Sunnite/Shiite. And that fuels a lot of tensions. "Stable" is a relative term in the presence of this mix. His only option was to keep the country as secular as he could so that religious problem wouldn't surface. And that worked for almost half a century. Just take a look at the state the country is in now. Is that more stable than it was under Saddam?
And Saddam wasn't much of an ally. The US didn't want Iran to beat Iraq and threaten the entire region beyond the danger it already posed. Just think how lovely things would be if Iraq had collapsed and Iran leveraged that into controlling not only Iran's oil, but Iraq, and Saudi Arabia's.
Actually yes, Saddam was an ally. Remember 1979? When that Ayatollah kicked out our buddy the Shah and took over his arsenal? We built the Iran up to be the fourth biggest army on the planet, complete with kick-ass technology like the back-then ultra modern F-14 jets, complete with state-of-the-art arms. We sure as FUCK didn't want to go to war against that, that wouldn't have been the cool asymmetric wars that we knew, where we'd mow down rice farmers and towelheads, that would have been more like WW2 where you fight an enemy that has weapons on par with yours. Hell, he even HAS the same weapons you have!
Instead, we hired Saddam to do that for us. And he did. For 8 years he kicked that Ayatollah's butt for us 'til all the modern crap that towelhead had was crushed. No, the US never wanted the Iran to crush Iraq. It was more the other way 'round.
As far as weapons go, Saddam got something like 90% of his weapons from the Soviet Union, Warsaw Pact, China, or other communist bloc states. Most of the rest was from France.
In the end, yes, when the US stopped being interested. That's the problem with the US, they just don't know how to treat an ally. They're not supposed to be used like tools made in China, i.e. used once and tossed away 'cause if we need more we just buy a new one. People don't like being tossed away. They tend to resent that. And sometimes they find new allies and turn against you. But we're talking about Saddam now, not Osama.
We now basically have a war that we can prolong infinitely. As long as we need one, they'll deliver.
So w
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
BTW my American friends:
That link to the Guardian should not be brushed aside as an idle reference. The public inquiry into the Iraq war is as close to a thorough investigation into a modern democratic government as you will ever get. It took from 2009 to 2016 (17 years) to investigate and the report comprises 2.6 million words in 12 volumes. The inquiry had access to the intelligence services, the parliament and all records related to the Iraq invasion. They interviewed anyone they believed to be of interest.
In other words, it's a big deal, and if your local media is not reporting on this for whatever reason, then I advise you to appraise yourself of what it contains and what it's all about.
Yeah, including the email orders for Turkish Deserts! What a respone! hahahaha
I wish that technologically developed countries do not sell any surveillance technologies to countries such as Turkey and other less democratic countries. Moreover, I also wish to see engineers refusing to develop such technologies to be used by anti-democratic counties. Italy and EU made some steps in controlling to export such tools to Egypt but the outcome is unknown. If EU control the export of these tools, others countries can still export it.
I have checked some emails from the Gezi uprising period and I think that the ruling party which is using surveillance technologies recklessly know better not to use emails to discuss some important issues. I hope to read some but I do not think that we will have access to a scandalous email. We already have enough wiretap of Erdogan with his son on youtube and some people broadcast them in subways and buses but people are afraid to react and nothing has changed.
>You seem to have omitted a few important details, such as Saddam''s funding and support of terrorism, training terrorists, and providing them refuge in Iraq.
I dunno - there seems to be a hell of a lot more "terrorism" in the world today with Saddam long dead than there ever was before. Barring 9/11 for actual death count, but that was the Saudis not Saddam.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
>Got any facts on that?
He left the facts right next to the evidence on all the Weapons of Mass Destruction....
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Destabilization at that time served to annoy the USSR. There no longer is a USSR to annoy,
Well, the US will still happily annoy Russia at any possible occasion.
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
>as long as turky moves American OIL up from South Sudan, through ISIS protected territory into Europe to fuck the Russians, they can do whatever they want. What the actual fuck? Get a map.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
The United States isn't a democracy. On paper it says it's a constitutional republic...in actuality it's an oligarchy.
You seem to have a selective memory yourself. Al Qaeda started its war against the US under the Bush the First administration.
FTFY. Oh, and its roots were funded with money from the Ford administration.
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
America would like to see Turkey become more democratic, secular, and bound to European institutions, including NATO, and eventually the EU. We would like Turkey to be tolerant of the Turkish Kurds in the south east, and support the Iraqi and Syrian Kurds in the fight against ISIS.
Depends which America you're talking about. Joe Sixpack doesn't care. Those that read and think would like that, but sociopaths like Kissinger who Clinton creams over has made clear he doesn't care how many people die for no coherent policy objective: http://www.alternet.org/world/...
The man is a moron. Clinton creams over him, but the guy is just some big fat twat who should have been charged with war crimes, who instead is fap material to the Washington elite. Which explains a lot about Washington.
Or if your initials are Dick C.
The war against PKK is not the war on Kurds, most of the PKK terrorist caught or killed have cross arpund their neck. Suggesting that the PKK is the same group created by the UK, that wanted to destabilize Iran after the the supporters of Ayatollah had overtrown their king. It was purely because Iran took back their natural resources from the UK that their had to deal with terrorism. The same is happening in the south east of Turkey. It's a big pie and everyone want the biggest piece. Ät has nothing to do with turks and kurs or whatsoever, 85 ethic groups live in Turkey. But only the kurds say "I am kurdish"... Read some very critical books my friend and stop repeating lies! I am from Qarabag, annexated territory by the Armenians. Stop this bullshit, please...
Aren't you tired to rehash old Chomsky bullshit that was d too many debunked too many times to count?
Just wondering.
Catalin Braescu
Ofaly.com
omg, this is the legendary troll I've heard so much about. And I'm not disappointed; dumbest comment of the day. 9/11 justified iraq like your post justifies a hellfire missile blowing your house to shit with you inside of it.
"You seem to have omitted a few important details, such as Saddam''s funding and support of terrorism, training terrorists, and providing them refuge in Iraq."
Got any facts on that?
Well, most of the People's Mujahedin of Iran (left-wing Iranian nationalist opposition group) took refuge in Iraq, and were considered a terrorist organisation and specifically mentioned by W. Bush as a reason for a the invasion, until, well, right after Saddam's fall.
I kid, the State Department still considered them terrorists until 2012, however the U.S. Joint Special Operations Command had trained MEK operatives at a secret site in Nevada from 2005 to 2009 (up until President Barack Obama took office).
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
And the irony of the biggest oligarchs becoming the heroes of the masses: Trump, Erdogan, Putin, Boris Johnson.
Most deserve the next wave of fascism that's presenting itself.
I have no doubt NATO is losing Turkey to Islamic control. We saw this coming as Turkey was reluctant to engage ISIS even at its own boarder. Turkey has been a solid member of NATO since WW2. It will be another terrible loss of logistic power in the region if the US and NATO lose bases in Turkey. It will mean any military air operations will have to be launched from bases or carriers further away. Sadly Clinton or Obama has not even addressed the significance of this because both are to blame for allowing this.
It is a disgrace that this country remains a NATO member and has candidature for the EU. Not that those two organisations are a shining light of moral rectitude but regardless....
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. - Albert Einstein
Some rumours say that a lot of the soldiers were conscripts thinking this was all a military exercise. Hand them rifles loaded with blanks, and plant a handful of agitators with live rounds amongst them.
Just the facts checker here, you cant use blanks on rifle without a blank adapter. Unless the conscript are truly clueless, that does not fly.
If Trump gets in then that will be a turkey of an administration, and maybe their winning tune should be from the Cranberries?. But I'm sure Donald will do his baste. If he fails he'll be stuffed.....
300k emails is just the size of my 'Junk mail' folder...
That's bullshit, Syria and Libya were very stable too, up until they blew up. That's what happens with dictatorships, they are very stable until they blow up. The mess in Syria is mainly Assad's doing, he actually released terrorists from prison just so he could say that he was fighting terrorists. ...
Dictatorships are not the solution to terrorism. In fact a good part of the reason jihadists hate the west so much is that they think the west is supporting dictators (which is sometimes true) and then there is Israel
>Got any facts on that?
He left the facts right next to the evidence on all the Weapons of Mass Destruction....
Well, there's this, for starters: "...multiple independent and bipartisan reports before and after the war have established beyond any doubt that Hussein was deeply enmeshed with terrorist activity from the time he took power in the late 1970s until the eve of his last war." Of course, you have to consider that the Washington Post may be stretching the truth a bit, if you think they may have an agenda here.
The Twitter guy?
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
Ah yes, it's the cold fjord NSA disinformation team back to muddy the waters again.
Bush and his buddies were mumbling about "finishing the job" in Iraq almost from the moment they moved into office. 9/11 just because a convenient hook to hang the invasion on. After a certain amount of hammering and sawing to make it fit. Including the promoting of claims about Iraq's imminent intent to use their large stockpile of Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Airplane attacks (in the Philippines) were first promoted while Clinton was still groping Monica. Attempts were made on the WTC using lesser tactics several times and every one was stopped.
The difference is that under Clinton, attacks got stopped before many people even heard about it.
Bush, on the other hand, was so obsessed with Iraq that he didn't place proper priority on Al Qaeda until he found it a useful excuse to promote invading Iraq. At which point the WTC was in ruins and 3000 people were already dead.
Since it's a pretty big wall of text that I wrote there, you might want to point to what has been debunked, please? Preferably with a source for the debunking.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Well, the US will still happily annoy Russia at any possible occasion.
Not really, although I can see why Russians might think that.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
To be fair I didn't notice a single source in your comment. Not saying I disagree with your points, but if you want others to post sources, you should consider doing yourself.
Democracy is not a sustainable regime. All administrations, regardless of the type of governing body, need money to operate. They collect money in the name of taxes from people but you can only squeeze the poor folk so far. Then you start going after the money of corporate entities. And regardless if you have the guns or not, they are not going to give it to you, no questions asked. If they give you, the government, money, they will look at it as an investment and will expect return on that investment. Otherwise, you will not get any more money. Here is where your democratic government, goes into the oligarchy mode. Does it sound similar ? Maybe here at home, in the US ? Which politician did you see in your lifetime and maybe in the lifetime of your parents, who did not cow-tow to the interest of big donor corporations, rather than the will of the people who supposedly elected them? Same thing is happening in Turkiye right now. There is a relatively big mass of educated people, who do not want to see their country go to hell in a handbasket. Mind you, Republic of Turkiye is younger than 100 years. There still are some people alive, who fought the liberation wars. The indoctrination of Ataturk, who was the biggest proponent of real democracy, not the theatre we see today, is still alive with this educated mass of people. In the name of globalization, nationalism is a big obstacle. Hence should be eradicated, according to the oligarchs. You can silence a minority of 1-2% of people, but when half or close to the half of a country becomes aware of what you are trying to do, it is hard to suppress that many people silently. What do you do then ? Orchestrate a coup against yourself, quash it, blame the thought leaders and anyone who might be in your way in the future for the failed coup. Then perform kangaroo courts to find them guilty and jail/kill them. At this point people will be afraid of speaking up their minds, with the fear of getting prosecuted. Meanwhile, the undereducated mass which brought Tayyip and his "Ak Parti" to the power, can be manipulated in some other way to weaken their support system of Islamic roots, probably divided into factions and pitted against one another. This is the fate of any country in the Middle East and vicinity. And it is spreading.
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
Where do you get the idea from that the US gives a shit about Turkey being democratic? What matters is that the li'l mustache keeps his mouth shut, stays in the NATO and deploys his troops where we want them to, as long as he does that he can round up all judges and Kurds and whatever else he feels like.
Well said. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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The more I know people, the more I love animals
Good lord, do I really have to become a history teacher now? Pretty much everything therein is easily available, if you're lazy try wikipedia.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Nothing's gonna change the outcome. People with guns > wimps with computers.
I glanced at the story, saw "Erdogan" and "Gulen," and thought there was a new Lord of the Ring movie on the way.
You may recall that 9/11 happened before the war in Iraq. Bush ran on a domestic program and war was thrust upon his administration by Bin Laden, al Qaida, and the Taliban.
I'll forgive Bush for Afghanistan, but Iraq was his choice.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Or was the Iraq War release all of that?
There no longer is a USSR to annoy
Tell that to the Europeans :-) That's the thing, North America is entirely removed from their very real security concerns, energy, food, invasion. Before WW2, going back to ancient times the continent has always been at war. The feudal (nationalist) idealism still lingers to this day. We have our nice big oceans to protect us. You know what they say about bliss... And the sociopathy of the leaders is also very real. Whether they like it or not, they do depend on us to tamp it down a bit. That's why the Balkan wars didn't spread this time. And the Russians will never get past Ukraine again, if we don't drop our drawers. While Russia's economy remains a bit tattered, the NATO buildup on the Eastern Front is quite logical and even reasonable. And an unstable middle east serves our purpose of making sure the Russia doesn't get fat off the things we no longer need. And of course there is the elephant in the room, Hillary's legacy. You don't argue against that.
Contrary to popular opinion, both invasions of Iraq have really been at the UK's request. I obviously don't agree with them, but I do understand the reasons. The second one was a true "wag the dog" moment. Look into Blair's affair with Wendy Deng. Murdoch got his war. Yes, they do kill people to cover this kind of stuff up. Sociopathy is a dominant trait. It has to be when you make the decision to go to war. Theresa May answered the *big question* with a simple "yes" (I'll let you Google that), which, to tell the truth, is better than Corbyn's answer of total disarmament.
There are mad times.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Whose incompetence? There were a number of terrorist attacks over the period from 1976 (Carter Administration) through the 1990s (Clinton Administration). Clinton had the opportunity to take out Bin Laden at least once, perhaps twice, but chose not to because we didn't have a 'smoking gun' sufficient to justify - that's an arguable case. 9/11 planning by Bin Laden began in at least 1999, perhaps 1998 - I don't recall. So if you're saying it was Bush incompetence, you're just uninformed. The fact is that Bin Laden (who was a big part of the "Mujahadeen" that we financed to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1970s) dedicated his life to killing infidels at that time if not before.
Afghanistan was not such a bad place prior to the Soviet invasion and removal of the king (not necessarily in that order). I have friends and relatives who worked there and visited there in the early 1970s. But the Russians have wanted a direct route to a warm water port for centuries, and have tried various methods multiple times including overthrowing governments. See also the "Great Game" of the 1800s between Russia, Britain, and China mostly.
It's quite reasonable actually to go back much farther, to the Jefferson Administration, in 1801-1809. See the Tripolitan War or Barbary Coast War, 1801-1815. US merchant shipping in the Mediterranean was being hampered by pirates out of Tripoli (present day Libya), who were seizing the ships and holding the crews and passengers for ransom. For several years the US (like several European nations) was forced to pay as much as $1 million per year to protect our fleets. When the US Ambassador went to Tripoli to negotiate, and find out why they kept attacking, the sultan or whatever said, "Holy Kuran tells us to kill all infidels. The fact that we don't kill your people but only hold them for ransom is merely a sign of our exceeding mercy." This was the motivation for Jefferson to build up the Navy, I think create the Marines but I'm not sure about that, and go to war. This is the basis for the latter part of a line in the Marine Hymn, "From the Halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli."
IOW, the western European and American nations have been dealing with murderous thugs from those areas since the birth of this country.
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
You may recall that 9/11 happened before the war in Iraq. Bush ran on a domestic program and war was thrust upon his administration by Bin Laden, al Qaida, and the Taliban.
9/11 and Afghanistan were thrust upon the administration. Even the benefit of hindsight doesn't give us much choice there. Iraq was the war that Bush really -wanted- to fight, and chose to fight.
"Mission Accomplished" referred to the mission performed by the aircraft carrier where that banner was displayed as it was returning home.
BS. Mission Accomplished referred to the end of the military operation in Iraq. It's kindof why George Bush piloted his own fighter jet onto the carrier -- not to celebrate one carrier's job being done.
No, it is not insane at all. In fact, it is most logical, and it worked. As long as we keep it up, Russia will never be a real threat. That is something I'm sure the Europeans can appreciate. Whether they do or not, is another story.
The UK's new Prime Minister will protect us!
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Democracy is not a sustainable regime. All administrations, regardless of the type of governing body, need money to operate. They collect money in the name of taxes from people but you can only squeeze the poor folk so far. Then you start going after the money of corporate entities.
Corporate entities are finding it increasingly difficult to hide their wealth. Why do you think bitcoin was invented?
*7 years...of course. Oops!
>As far as weapons go, Saddam got something like 90% of his weapons from ...
I can tell you first hand, that he had American weapons too. As I've been on the receiving end of some of his army's artillery and other fireworks. Didn't know it until we took the position and noticed their hardware, but sure enough it was from some arms deal we used to have with him.
And ps... as far as chemical weapons goes? Yeah he had plenty, guess what country sold it to him :D *that's how America should have framed the invasion, "Hey he's got plenty of our old stuff and is undisciplined enough to use it. Let's go!" Instead there was some story about he may or may not have it, and poor intel was re-assembled anew to say he had it. Should just said he did & how he got it - wouldv've been more understandable.
(I still have an Iraqi army French APC driver helmet though, pretty neat thing- so you're right on some of their inventory).
Really? the 1993 attack saw 6 killed, 1042 injured, and only the poor placement of the bomb itself stopped the plot from taking down the tower as planned... but yep, "every one was stopped."
Really? Khobar Towers, the WTC bombing, the US embassy bombings in Tanzania, Nairobi, and Kenya, and the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen.
Yep, Clinton did such a great job stopping all these attacks.
And let's not forget that the 9/11 hijackers were in the US, taking flight training and finalizing their plans, in 2000 - again, under Clinton's watch.
What fucking fantasy-land do you live in where Bill Clinton magically stopped all these attacks, and was a complete animal about aggressively pursuing and apprehending people who meant the US harm?
Holy shit, I'm not saying that George Bush is blameless, but you've got to be fucking kidding me if you're going to point to Bill Clinton as an example of "handling counter-terror operations right."
He didn't pilot the fighter jet. He never was a carrier rated pilot.
...from 2009 to 2016 (17 years)...
That's actually "only" 7 years. The war being investigated started 13 years ago.
People will pass up steak once a week, for crap every day.
Hoardes of "young men" supporting a "popular" change of government and ranting about foreign influence etc are ACTUALLY Islamofascists supporting the destruction of a secular state and its conversion to an Islamic theocracy. There are MANY parallels here:
(a) In Iran: secular govt being replaced by muslim theocracy, in Turkey: secular govt converting to palace tyrant+mullahs model like Saudi arabia.
(b)The return of the veil/hijab/etc for women, who were not so muzzled in either Turkey or Islam before these foul events.
(c) The secular courts and schools are being purged.
(d) The increasingly powerful ruler is even demanding a US president (and even a Democrat at that) return his only high-profile political opponent for "justice" back in the land that is rapidly spirallying into Islamist rule from secular rule.
(e) The about-to-be Islamofascist country is on the cusp of getting top-line NATO warplanes (F-14 Tomcats for Iran, which actually got a few incomplete ones before the revolution, F-35 Lightning IIs for Turkey which (insanely, for the West) will soon get the 1st ones)
The people of Turkey who are being told this plunge is actually freedom are goint to awake to the truth when it is too late, just like the people of Iran did. The Iranian people were told they were being freed from the "evil" shah, and they ended-up living under the thumb of the extreme whackos who persecuted/imprisoned/murdered far more people and made far more things illegal than the shah (who was certainly bad) ever did. It's VERY suspicious that this supposed coup was as incompetent as it was given the normal competence of the Turkicsh military and its long track record of success in coups, and also very interesting that all the "civilians" in the streets during the "coup" were young fighting-age men. There may have been some women,but none of the photos I have seen contained any.
History never PRECISELY repeats, but it prevents plenty of lessons and warnings, and we're all stupid to ignore them.
Iraq should have been his choice but I think he was led by the nose by others instead of attempting to do his job as President.
I'll forgive Bush for Afghanistan
I'm sorry to hear that. Afghanistan is an opium war.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
That could be, but it seems like something he wanted to do before getting elected.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Nobody said that there was not earlier incompetence.
If we are going to go back as far as Carter his inability to put the blame on others and his decision to let the former Shah of Iran into the country, resulting in a huge ongoing shitstorm that lost him the Presidency, showed he could not play the political game as slickly as an accomplished actor like Reagan.
Do you REALLY hear yourself think, or do you cover it with special pleading?
Are you implying Kissinger has a lick of sense?
No, but he does.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
None other