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Tech Takes Its K-12 CS Education and Immigration Crisis To the DNC (cnet.com)
theodp writes: In early 2013, Code.org and FWD.us coincidentally emerged after Microsoft suggested tech's agenda could be furthered by creating a crisis linking U.S. kids' lack of computer science savvy to tech's need for tech worker visas. Three years later, CNET's Marguerite Reardon reports that tech took its K-12 computer science and immigration crisis to the Democratic National Convention on Wednesday, where representatives from Microsoft, Facebook, and Amazon called for the federal government to invest in more STEM education and reform immigration policies -- recurring themes the industry hopes to influence in the run-up to the 2016 presidential election. "We believe in the importance of high-skilled immigration coupled with investments in education," said Microsoft President Brad Smith, repeating the Microsoft National Talent Strategy. The mini-tech conference also received some coverage in the New Republic, where David Dayen argues that the DNC is one big corporate bride.
For all that verbiage, what I got out of it is that they just want to bring more H-1Bs into the US to bring down wages. STEM education is definitely nothing more than a PR stunt.
invest in more STEM education and reform immigration policies
Really means;
ensure we can get cheap labour from poor countries while making it look like there's another reason for it besides profit
How about a plan to let those companies temporarily (until their domestic replacements finish school) hire immigrant workers at tenfold cost of domestic workers, with the extra money invested in STEM education? That would fix the "crisis" long term and short term, right?
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Sorry, NewRepublic sounded like it belongs to some GOP goop.
I shouldn't post before my first coffee...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Bingo. H-1B's exist for one purpose: To provide indentured workers that can be treated as wage slaves and undercut american labor.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
Exactly. So kill the indenture part, then they will work at about market price. Suddenly, hiring H1-Bs becomes way less economical, since you can't pay them artificially low wages.
What skills are lacking in the first place? I would argue that it's not lack of 'tech' skills - there are many people who can read specs and often obtuse community posts and write software that meets some specs.
What is lacking is critical thinking, ability and desire to refine existing technologies (rather than reinvent things or try to come up with the next biggest thing), and failing to look at how everything is interconnected over the long term.
We don't need more computer science in schools, we need more critical thinking classes. I'd also say we need more classes in "how practice is different than theory" but that doesn't sound glamorous.
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
That won't make a meaningful difference, you'll still have companies crowding out American workers with much cheaper foreign labor. The best solution is to reverse the indeture. If a company REALLY claims that it's utterly impossible to find an American worker and they absolutely must bring someone in force them to pay that person a princely sum and killer benefits for a mandatory minimum period.
Make it so that bringing in an H-1B is outright painful. If they legitimately can't find an American worker they'll be willing to pay it.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
If by "career" you mean the dipshits that get an over-priced CS degree, are bitter because they assumed that their first job will have a big fat salary to pay that off and corner office, and then spend the next 20 years trying to avoid any new project so they can keep surfing the gaming and cosplay sites, you might have a point. But if you use the word "career" in a more valid sense for people who continue to widen their knowledge base to include non-tech skills like writing and project management, and who tackle new challenges head-on, then there's a damn good work to be had. I personally make really good money and I might have to work a night or a weekend once every several months. I dont have to deal with any customers at all because I design the solutions the "career" employees you're talking about have to implement and support. My job is frustrating as hell, but that revolves entirely around the aforementioned idiots, and my non-tech bosses selling shit-brained ideas they haven't discussed with their tech staff, and that down-side is not at all unlike any other career. Your argument is like saying that going into the restaurant business is stupid because you'll be washing dishes for the rest of your life. Or that going into the construction business is stupid because you will be installing toilets forever. Yeah, sure, if you're inept or lazy that''s true in any "career". And if you think you missed an opportunity to skip and dance off to a job that you just love doing every day, well, welcome to the real world and 98% of the workforce.
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
You glossed over parent's solution pretty quickly and did not explain why it would not make a "meaningful difference". There are two things going on here. First, there is the problem with H1-Bs and similar visas being strongly attached to an employer and requiring a somewhat painful process to transfer to another employer if he employee wants to change employers. This encumberment probably does depress H1-B wages.
But second, there is what most people here are actually bitching about but won't admit it: "dey tuk er jerbs". Removing thr encumbrance does not solve that problem, and in fact could make it worse, as the current limited number of employers who will bother with H1-B sponsorship might grow to include small business if it's less of a pain either initially to sponsor or afterwards to transfer.
If your beef truly is that H1-B wages are depressed due to inability to change employers, then of course the solution is to make it easy to change employers. Yet you said that wouldn't make much difference. Perhaps you are in the second group.
Exactly. So kill the indenture part, then they will work at about market price. Suddenly, hiring H1-Bs becomes way less economical, since you can't pay them artificially low wages.
I'm sure you believe that, but it simply isn't the case. You are talking about companies with a seemingly suicidal PC tact. You really have to take a step back when seeing something like that and ask yourself "if this greedy megacorp is out for every dollar why would they take such a massively racist stance when it hurts their profit?"
The answer is actually pretty straightforward, as Warren Buffet said: "There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning."
They don't want middle-class people raising more upper-middle-class people because ultimately people don't go from rags to riches, financial security is made incrementally over generations and there isn't enough room at the top for everyone in a resource-constrained economy. More people who are well-off means more people who want more than what they have on a level that would lead to competition for the upper class. The simplest way for them to avoid this issue is to push the narrative that white males are bad because most of their potential competition are white males.
They love helping the poor, the immigrants and so on - because people are very grateful to go from poor to middle class while being oblivious to the nature of wealth. That isn't to say the children of those poor-to-middle-class people won't suffer the same fate as the current middle class, they will if left unchecked.
TL;DR: the elite keep the poor and middle classes in a state of perpetual reflux to avoid competition, the only way to avoid it from where we are is to cut down on immigration because it's ultimately a balancing act of how many resources there are vs how many people want them.
Make the H-1B min wage 80k-150K + COL + X2 OT pay at 60-80+ hours a week. That will fix it.
From over here in Europe they look like one party anyway.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I think it's fair to say that a STEM degrees are not easy to get.
So why bother getting one, if you are just going to have your job offshored, or get replaced by a visa worker?
If you really want more STEM workers: stop sending the message that are you going to stomp the crap out of them.
Hold on a second. A corporation is saying it can not find skilled local workers, so why the fuck do they not train some. So when anyone, has to go for that training, they have to take on a massive debt to pay for the skill corporations want to exploit. So why the fuck do the corporations get that skill for fucking free. Why are not the corporations paying for training, why are those cheap arse bastards, demanding that the government pays, or the individual pays. Whilst those self same corporations refuse to pay for training and to top it all off, what to pay lower wages to those individuals who pay for that training and in addition those self same corporations cheap on their taxes by offshoring profits in tax havens. The should take the D out of DNC and just have changed it to the CNC the Corporate National Convention.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
You are exactly right - MOD PARENT UP.
In fact the ultimate goal is much more insidious. Currently, the global median household income is at $9,733, and the goal is to level wages in ALL countries to the same place. Ultimately, some country's income will rise (where the multinational corporations are building factories and offices right now), but in most countries of the West is must be significantly be reduced. Note that's household income, which in many cases is two earners per household.
Workers wages are, in fact, the ONLY commodity price that is being depressed right now. All others (food, energy, housing, etc.) is on the rise. You can argue by how much by citing ShadowStats vs. the US BLS, but you still see the same trend.
Interesting the globalist party (a.k.a. the Democrats) continue to push this agenda. The symbolism during the convention was really in-your-face. More bridges, less borders, more flow, faster equalization of wages. While the elites continue to amass wealth and ignore countries (the wealthy don't NEED countries - their wealth provides them ultimate mobility, influence, and protection).
They don't really need the middle class at all. Sure, they are using them right now as a cash cow to keep the funds flowing, but ultimately they are more trouble than they are worth. Better to reduce them to nothing and get as quickly as possible to a 2-class system. With the cost of living increasing and wages being "globally equalized" as quickly as possible, soon that's what they will have. The important thing to do now is to demonize the nationalists as racist, xenophobic, uneducated neanderthals clinging to sky-fairy religions, to avoid things like voting for a Brexit and electing nationalists like Trump.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
Here's the deal with Training. You have a choice when training your employees. You can train American workers, and when they are fully trained, they leave for greener pastures OR you can train H1B visa holders, and they can't leave, without having to go home.
Economically speaking, the ONLY real choice is to hire H1B workers, and train them, because they can't leave. This is only ONE of many reasons why H1B rules favors Corporations and hurt workers. This is also why Government should NOT be messing with the economy at all, and let the market forces work things out. Artificial rules create artificial supply and demand problems, interrupting normal economic activity.
In the meantime, the American Worker is being screwed by both DNC and GOP politicians who are selling out to the highest bidder. And you think this is good for America because "the Republicans are worse" or "The Democrats are worse" binary logic. Whoever is in power is worse.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
All of that is true, except when Government interferes with consensual agreements, in the name of "protecting" one party or another. Unfortunately, those with power end up with unlimited amount of "protection" and those without have none. The battle ground for power is where the fight actually resides, and the "average" person has no power.
And therein is one of the big reasons why I am a Libertarian. Group Power is tyranny. Liberty is for one and for all, or it is for none.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
And you know why? The people who are good get hired.
Our company has hired a number of Indians the past couple of years - all very competent people. Thing is, we didn't hire them under the Canadian equivalent of the H-1B program (Temporary Foreign Worker). We hired them under standard work permits for eventual immigration into Canada as a full Canadian citizen (we're sponsoring them).
Yes, they can technically leave and find another job, but then they lose our sponsorship and will need to find a new sponsor (and restart the immigration process - it takes a few years).
They're all very competent people - and it's not like we aren't trying to hire people (everyone we hired came through internal employee referrals, and we still have listings online for jobs).
So we're effectively skimming the best of the best out of India - which makes you wonder what we're leaving behind. We're not advertising jobs in India (only within Canada seeking Canadians first), but the people we hire are people who know each other and are extremely knowledgeable, intelligent, smart, and competent. And yes, we have to pay regular Canadian salary because they are living here and thus have to pay regular housing costs.
So yeah. We've been hiring the best away. Which leaves the question of who's left. If you offshore, you realize that other companies have hired away and are retaining the best.
Nice try, Shill "John Smith". The GAO--you know, Congress' non-partisan investigative arm--reported that a full 50% of entry level--yes, entry level--jobs went to H-1B visa holders, not to candidates with high skills. That's a myth pushed by the big tech companies. They just want cheap labor, at the expense of US citizens.
Would a neutral policy towards immigration allow unlimited immigration? Would there be limits by country? If immigration is limited, how do we decide who gets in?