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Four Code Bootcamps Are Now Eligible For Government Financial Aid (hackeducation.com)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the educational-programming dept.

Long-time Slashdot reader theodp notes a pilot program for improving computer science education which includes financial aid for students at four code bootcamps: In this week's Hack Education Weekly News, Audrey Watters writes, "The US Department of Education has selected eight higher ed institutions and eight 'non-traditional providers' that will work as partners to pilot the DoE's new EQUIP experiment, meaning that students will be able to receive federal financial aid for coding bootcamps, MOOCs, and the like...

"Good thing there haven't been any problems with for-profit higher ed and exploitation of financial aid, otherwise this would all seem like a terrible idea."
The original submission has more details on the participants (including the four code bootcamps). Ultimately the program involves pairing "non-traditional" providers with higher education institutions -- and then monitoring their results with a third-party "quality assurance entity" -- to improve the ways we measure a school's performance, but also testing new ways to fund training for computer careers. (I'm curious how Slashdot's readers feel about government loans for attendees at code bootcamps...)

54 of 85 comments (clear)

  1. Well by ShooterNeo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I've got a computer engineering degree. While I do currently have a job, some of these bootcamps claim to offer just a handful of weeks of work then the connections to get you an interview. They claim they get jobs that pay 6 figures on average to nearly all their graduates.

    When I was looking for a job, this seemed pretty tempting. It's also hugely more efficient if any of their claims are true. It makes more sense for people to finish high school/get a cheap associates degree and then use a bootcamp to get relevant, immediately useful skills. Out of all the courses I took for a degree, at least 80% of the knowledge I don't use on a daily basis.

    On demand education makes a ton more sense. Train people intensively for the 20% they actually need. 10 years later, those 6 figure jobs doing full stack web dev will probably not be nearly as lucrative or in demand. So people would go to another bootcamp.

    It's far cheaper and more efficient if it works. I can't say for sure if it does - as I mentioned, I only looked at advertising copy for these bootcamps - but the idea makes a lot of sense.

    1. Re:Well by johannesg · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yeah, because just a handful of weeks of education for people who are only motivated by money is going to turn out such great professionals. And who needs a well-rounded education anyway when someone with an extremely narrow skillset (who is therefore also less employable) is so much cheaper...

    2. Re:Well by ShooterNeo · · Score: 2

      It depends on what the goal is. If you're talking about educational efficiency, it makes a ton more sense. It makes a ton more sense to train people for 6 months intensively, with a repeat in 5-10 years, if it makes them 80 or 90% as good as someone you trained for 4-5 years. I have that 5 years worth of training, maybe that makes me a better engineer, maybe it doesn't. But if I could be 80% as good as I am now, for 80% of the pay, and I didn't have to waste 5 years in school, I'd have gone that route.

    3. Re:Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure about that. I certainly don't directly use anything that was taught in the "well rounded" portion of my college education -- but it Is certainly a good idea to gain some exposure outside of your main area of focus...if only to see how other non-techies see the world.

      College is basically what you say it is - a filter to weed out people who can't learn and can't adjust to a framework of rules...you know, the whole being an adult thing. Some people can teach themselves and have no problem, but one of the things I got out of college was time to grow up, do stupid things and get ready for the real world. Does it make sense to go into massive debt for this? No, but that's why public colleges exist. People who work hard, major in a semi-relevant field and use the time to grow up will see a benefit. If you flunk out with a huge loan balance, well, that's not a good ROI obviously.

    4. Re:Well by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      Depends on what was covered in the degree program. The Comp Sci Engineering degree at UF has *one* programming class (Java). Here at "the other college" in Gainesville someone who graduated last spring would've had the chance to experience C, C++, C#, Java, PHP, both iOS and Android app, and now with our BAS degree we are covering UML and a few other things. But nothing about say Python or Ruby. So if I were looking for a job and there was lots fo work for people who had experience with Python, doing a boot camp on top of my degree (BS, BAS, or AS) would make sense.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    5. Re: Well by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      but it Is certainly a good idea to gain some exposure outside of your main area of focus

      It's too bad that an overpriced university is the only place where that can be achieved...

    6. Re:Well by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      I use much more than 20% of what I learned at school, indirectly.
      College-level education is not about learning keywords, it is about getting the appropriate mindset so that you don't need training each time the keywords change. If you rely on these "code bootcamps" for your education, you will be no better than cheap offshore workers (and worse than less cheap, better trained offshore workers).

      The only good thing about these bootcamps is if they can land you a job that allows you to get paid and get proper education at the same time. So that when the "full stack web dev" you are doing falls out of fashion, you are already prepared for the next thing and the one after it without needing another bootcamp. They may look good on your resume too, even if you don't really need them.

    7. Re:Well by StormReaver · · Score: 1

      It's far cheaper and more efficient if it works. I can't say for sure if it does....

      It doesn't. We've been here before in the 90's, when CS and CIS degree programs were flooded by people in the field solely for the money (which dried up rather quickly with the arrival of the Dot Bomb). It ends up with the situation I had in my senior year of College/University, in which one of my classmates asked me if I could format a disk for him because he never learned how.

      You're deluded if you think, "...a handful of weeks of work...", no matter how intensive, is worth anything. Hell, most graduates coming out of a four-year degree program aren't worth shit for at least six months. And that's usually just enough time to acclimate to the work environment, much less do anything useful.

      This is another in a long line of fads designed to funnel government money up through the pyramid.

    8. Re:Well by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It's more like "there are lots of jobs where 6 months is enough to make modifications and minor improvements, and to learn more on the job". You might only get 50% of the pay for that. There is a lot of vertical software that can be hacked up in that way. Sure, the result is ugly and makes the next person's life a living hell, but the business case for doing it properly just isn't there.

      The better paid jobs will be for the people who design and implement the first version or add major new features.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    9. Re:Well by sinij · · Score: 1

      I wholeheartedly disagree with the above. While I don't utilize, for example, what I learned about thermodynamics, I do frequently utilize my ability to quickly comprehend and summarize obscure concepts. Substantial part of my job is to translate thermodynamics-like concepts into task lists that could be understood and executed by coders.

    10. Re:Well by johannesg · · Score: 2

      Would you visit a doctor who has had a few weeks of medicine bootcamp? Drive over a bridge designed by an engineer with a few weeks of engineering bootcamp? Maybe fly in a plane flown by a pilot with a few weeks of pilot bootcamp?

      No? Why not? Do you not appreciate the efficiency of that approach anymore, now?

    11. Re: Well by johannesg · · Score: 1

      What's stopping you from visiting a cheap university? Either at home or abroad?

    12. Re:Well by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

      Wow. I must not exist. I'm 54, started as a Geophysicist, moved to the USAF and flew bombers doing Electronic Warfare for a few years, then left and got a job doing EW Systems Engineering. Developed from there into a Sysadmin, and from there into Security. And have never been jobless for more than 2 months. Re-training ? Currently studying Cloud in general, and AWS in particular, on the side. . .

      So, yes, you CAN retrain. In fact, I would argue that if you're not constantly retraining YOURSELF. . . you're going to be doing the IT equivalent of flipping burgers. It merely requires self-discipline and a willingness to spend a few hours of your free time every week, learning something new. . .

    13. Re: Well by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

      After 40 you need to have moved into management. If you want to keep doing tech, move into the public sector and/or move to the Midwest.

      There are still plenty of jobs for olds, just not where you might want them to be or doing the latest and greatest stuff. Olds maintain old tech.

      hmm. . . that is why my 54-year-old ass is doing Software Assurance **AND** management. And I guess you consider Android and IOS apps to be "old tech". . . .

    14. Re:Well by Hevel-Varik · · Score: 1

      Well your taking a lot of heat, but I am a member of a large community and personally know 3 young men who went to boot camp and were hired immediately after leaving, and now after a job switch (or two) are making low six figures (in NY). Front end is very hot, now, and these guys are getting hired. They're all smart and really motivated self-learners and--this is a slashdot blindspot--they do not stop learning once they leave the bootcamp, they just learn on and off the job. There are tons of books out there to learn anything you want, and there's nothing stopping any of these guys from picking up a dusty copy of sedgwick and learning a llinearithmic search algorithm. Classic overestimation the difficulty of ones own occupation. The bootcamp just teaches you enough and gives you enough hands on to be useful day one on kinds of jobs that are available in gobs. Any of these guys can take PSD and create HTML/CSS/JS representation using a number of popular frameworks (that save time, which the jobs require) and the one I know can create and tie into a basic backend. They aren't getting hired and google or facebook but who outside of the special snowflakes who got to devote their entire selves for 8 years to maths and engineering in 50k per annum highschools and unis, are either.

      And surprise, suprise, these guys don't stop learning and are able to move on from framework to framework as needed and you can read a lot books on your 100K per year salary if you think you need expert up at lower levels of abstraction.

      It's a good deal right now, though I am skeptical that it will be a good deal for very much longer.

    15. Re:Well by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      We've been here before in the 90's, when CS and CIS degree programs were flooded by people in the field solely for the money

      Calling those training courses "degree programs" is rather generous. I remember those days, there was a serious shortage of skilled IT people, and I don't mean shortage in the sense of "let's pretend there is one so we can import cheap overseas workers"; it was genuinely hard to find staff of any qualification. What we had then is similar to the current boot camps, short track training to quickly get people up to speed. They enrolled literally anyone into these programs: housewifes re-entering the job market, jobless artists, high school students looking for a summer job... and the results were to match. Very few people stayed in IT very long, the exceptions mostly turning out to be decent project support staff or project managers rather than qualified IT techs.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    16. Re:Well by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      You actually think you can retrain after 10 years.

      Yes.

      After 10 years you will be too old to get a job in tech, any job.

      I'm 20+ years into my technical career.

      You'll be too old and totally worthless.

      When I was out of work for two years (2009-10), underemployed for six months (working 20 hours per month), and filed for Chapter Seven bankruptcy, hiring managers told me I was overqualified for minimum wage jobs and recruiters told me I was unemployable for everything else. I never believed them. When the economy turned around in 2011, I was working again. I'm currently two years into a five year contract in government IT, where I'm one of the youngest workers among the greybeards.

    17. Re:Well by Rinikusu · · Score: 1

      Well... I know some folks that did these bootcamps. They have/had degrees in other subjects, but found they either didn't like that direction in their career or found options limited for whatever reasons (automation, downsizing, etc). So it's not like they have a narrow skillset; many of these folks have quite diverse skillsets. It's just not tech focused. So, they looked at software dev. It seems interesting and hey, everyone always has "an app idea." But they can't get a job doing software dev because the HR drones say they don't have any experience. What to do? Return to college for a 4 year Computer Science degree? Fuck that. So now we see an 8-12 week bootcamp that aims to turn you into a junior developer (and let's be real: that's pretty much what you'll be at this stage). Good enough for web dev, or maybe even simple app dev. We're not talking software engineers architecting an entire Fortune 500's digital data workflow and processing needs.

      If I were going to go to a bootcamp, right now would be the ideal time. Bootcamps, at least ones like MakerSquare and HackReactor seem to be very focused on churning out quality students so they can keep their networking/placement deals intact. If they churn out garbage, people quit using them, and then they become "cert mills". There are a lot of law schools that churn out students with $100k in debt and no ability to pass the bar. That's what these bootcamps need to avoid. I fear with easy access to student loans, that's what most will become. The model itself is admirable; and I can't wait to see if we can't eventually have a quality, fully online computer science degree for minimal cost using the lessons being learned in MOOCs.

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    18. Re:Well by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      [...] you know, the whole being an adult thing.

      I wouldn't count on that. I had several friends who graduated from the university with computer science degrees who stopped learning. After they got laid off from working at the same company for six or seven years during the dot com bust, and took six-month vacations while collecting unemployment benefits, no one wanted to hire them because their job skills were obsolete. They refused to spend their savings on professional courses, boot camps, or even books to help themselves get up to speed. When they exhausted their savings, they both ended up getting drug store clerk jobs. Today they are still working as drug store clerks. What a waste of a good university degree.

    19. Re:Well by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      [...] (which dried up rather quickly with the arrival of the Dot Bomb).

      Healthcare became the new money major after the dot com bust. Everyone and their grandmother dropped CIS like a rock and enrolled in healthcare. Friends told me I was crazy to be in computers. Fast forward to today... Many of my friends in healthcare are making more money than me but hate their jobs with a passion. I'm enjoying my career in IT support, and, ironically, some of my best contract work is for hospitals.

    20. Re: Well by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Software assurance isn't exactly programming. Neither is management. Your ass is considered way to old too do coding. 30 is the new 55. 40 is the new 65.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    21. Re:Well by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Both philosophy and sociology (as well as psych) were useful in understanding assholes - and with the number of assholes in tech, should probably be mandatory.

      Nobody can know in advance what will be useful knowledge or what will be as useless as ruby on rails or the next fad.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    22. Re:Well by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      No, now is not the ideal time to go to boot camp. Look around - with everyone getting desperate over their future, now is the time to open a boot camp.

      When the economy goes in the sh*tter, enrollment in education always goes up - and tuition has increased in price much faster than inflation, while the economic value has dropped.

      At one point, those two trend lines are going to cross. They already have for many degrees.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    23. Re:Well by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Calling those training courses "degree programs" is rather generous.

      Certainly less so than a boot camp. The grandparent poster is absolutely right - we've been here before (in the 80s, in the 90's, etc). Same sh*t, different scam.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    24. Re: Well by ShooterNeo · · Score: 1

      I've got a question for ya. I'm just going to take your statements as valid.

      If programmers over 30 are unemployable, where is this limitless pool of 22-30 year old programmers coming from? There's a finite number of even qualified Indians...

      If the median age of an employed programmer is 43 according to the BLS, where are they all working?

      There aren't enough management jobs for every over 30 programmer to get one. Simple and obvious math because a manager needs at least 8 or so subordinates or they aren't really a manager...

      I suspect the actual truth is more that there are plenty of programmers who are much older - I have met some personally - but that in the fishbowl of the LA startup scene and at the elite campuses of facebook and google, they can afford to cherry pick. They can only afford to cherry pick because there must be a never ending stream of newcomers to LA seeking their fortune. Sort of how nearly all women alive are outside the parameters to be a movie star (since you gotta be young, skinny, beautiful, AND be able to act) but the constant flood of them into Hollywood means they don't have to employ female actresses over 30.

  2. DOE Fact Sheet - EQUIP experiment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Source URL: http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/fact-sheet-ed-launches-initiative-low-income-students-access-new-generation-higher-education-providers

    FACT SHEET: ED Launches Initiative for Low-Income Students to Access New Generation Of Higher Education Providers

    AUGUST 16, 2016
    Contact: Press Office, (202) 401-1576, press@ed.gov
    More Resources
    pdf icon Transcript of Press Call
    Today, the U.S. Department of Education (ED) is inviting eight selected partnerships between institutions of higher education and non-traditional providers to participate in the EQUIP (Educational Quality through Innovation Partnerships) experiment.

    These partnerships will allow students—particularly low-income students—to access federal student aid for the first time to enroll in programs offered by non-traditional training providers, in partnership with colleges and universities, including coding bootcamps, online courses, and employer organizations. The goals of the experiment are to: (1) test new ways of allowing Americans from all backgrounds to access innovative learning and training opportunities that lead to good jobs, but that fall outside the current financial aid system; and (2) strengthen approaches for outcomes-based quality assurance processes that focus on student learning and other outcomes. The experiment aims to promote and measure college access, affordability, and student outcomes.

    EQUIP falls under the Experimental Sites Initiatives, which test the effectiveness of statutory and regulatory flexibility for post secondary institutions that disburse federal financial aid. Through the EQUIP program, the Department seeks to learn about these new models and their costs and educational and employment outcomes for students, as well as explore new methods to measure quality. Testing and learning from this program may help inform future policy reforms.

    "I'm thrilled that students will soon have access to these innovative programs, developed in partnership with colleges and new providers, with the help of federal financial aid," said Under Secretary of Education Ted Mitchell. "As these innovative programs continue to develop, it will be increasingly important to understand what an outcomes-based quality assurance system looks like for such programs. I am encouraged to see that these colleges, providers, and quality assurance entities have stepped forward to provide models for doing so."

    Why we are launching EQUIP

    Over the next decade, the share of jobs requiring some level of higher education is expected to grow more rapidly than those that do not, with 11 of the 15 fastest-growing occupations requiring a postsecondary education. That is why the Obama Administration has worked to ensure that all students have access to a high-quality, affordable higher education. From the First in the World grants with which institutions of higher education designed and are testing innovative approaches to teaching and supporting students, to recent changes that will allow students to apply for federal aid earlier and more simply, the U.S. Department of Education has continuously worked to promote college access, affordability, and completion.

    The expansion of higher education to more students means that students today are more likely to be older, living away from campus, and attending part-time while balancing work and school. To meet the needs of all students, our higher education system must continue to innovate and evolve.

    There are many efforts across the higher education community to explore new ideas and affordable models for offering a quality education, such as short-term credential options, and online or blended skills training that is responsive to the need for accountable innovation. These programs can be accessible, affordable, and customized to the needs of a diverse student population.

    For students seeking access to these new models of education, there are two key barriers to enrolling: lack of access to financial aid, and lack of information about

  3. FACT Sheet: Transcript of Press Call by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Source URL: http://www2.ed.gov/documents/press-releases/equip-partnership-press-call.pdf

    Page 1
    Educational Quality through Innovative Partnerships (EQUIP)
    Experiment to Provide Low-Income Students with Access to New Models of Education and
    Training
    Press Call to Announce Selected Partnerships
    Moderator: Kelly Leon
    August 16, 2016
    11:15 am CT
    Coordinator: Welcome and thank you for standing by. At this time, all participants will be
    on a listen-only mode. During the question-and-answer session, you may press
    star followed by the number 1 on your phone if you would like to ask a
    question.
    Today’s conference is being recorded. If you have any objections, you may
    disconnect at this time. Now I would like to turn the meeting over to your
    host, Ms. Kelly Leon. You may now begin.
    Kelly Leon: Good afternoon, everyone. Thanks for joining us today. My name is Kelly
    Leon. I’m the Assistant Press Secretary with the Department of Education.
    Today, the Department has invited eight partnerships between colleges and
    non-traditional providers to participate in the EQUIP, or Educational Quality
    through Innovative Partnerships experiment, under our Experimental Site
    Initiative.
    We thank all of you for your interest in today’s announcement and are happy
    to discuss in greater detail then take a few questions.

    Page 2
    We are pleased to have, in addition to Under Secretary Mitchell, a few
    representatives from partnerships with us today. For the conversation, we’ll
    begin remarks from Under Secretary Mitchell, then turn it over to President
    Joseph Aoun of Northeastern University, followed by Ms. Deb Adair, CEO of
    Quality Matters.
    The Department’s fact sheet was shared this morning and it’s posted on our
    Web site under the Press Release section. If for some reason you did not
    receive it, please e-mail press@ed.gov.
    As a reminder, today’s call is on the record. Without further ado, let’s go
    ahead and begin with Under Secretary Mitchell.
    Ted Mitchell: Thanks, Kelly. And thanks, everyone, for joining us today. I really appreciate
    it. We’re all very excited about the EQUIP program and glad to have Joseph
    and Deb joining us to describe their work in the EQUIP program.
    You know, what sets this off is that higher education has never mattered so
    much to so many as a means of social mobility, as an engine of our economy,
    and as a way for individuals to better themselves and move into the middle
    class. Finally, I think it’s important to recognize, especially this season, that
    higher education, education in general, are one of the bulwarks of a
    functioning civil society and our diverse democracy.
    The Obama Administration has made it a priority since day one to increase
    postsecondary access and affordability to ensure that more people have the
    opportunity to earn high-quality college degrees and credentials. And while
    America has some of the best colleges and universities in the world, as a
    system, we’re still catching up to the needs of today’s new normal college
    student.

    Page 3
    Today’s average student is no longer the 18-year-old whose parents drive her
    up to State U in a minivan stuffed with boxes. Instead, the new normal student
    may be a 24-year-old returning veteran, a 36-year-old single mother, a parttime
    student juggling work and college, or a first-generation college student.
    The faces we picture as our college hopefuls can’t be limited by any factor,
    including inflexible or unaffordable higher education options. Indeed, to
    accommodate these students, we can’t continue to do more of the same. We
    must innovate. And thankfully, we’re seeing a tremendous amount of
    innovation in higher education. We believe that forward-thinking colleges and
    universities and new providers of education can drive increases in
    postsecondary access, quality, affordability and completion.

  4. You Can't Learn To Program In A Classroom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What proportion of competent programmers are self-taught? I would expect the majority. On my degree, the only people who could program were the ones who had learned themselves, and the students who relied on the lectures knew practically nothing.

    You can't just sit in a classroom and expect to be able to program at the end of the course. You only become a competent programmer by spending a lot of time working on real applications, which generally involves dedicating a lot of your free time.

    If I were recruiting for a programming job I wouldn't even consider qualifications and wouldn't care whether the applicant had a degree or not. What I'd instead want to see is examples of the programs the applicant had produced. This would confirm that they could actually program (since many people with degrees can't) and that they have the enthusiasm and dedication to be good programmers. If all you have is a degree or some certificate from a bootcamp, and can't show any work that demonstrates your programming skills, then it's clear that you have no programming skills, nor do you have any interest in programming.

    1. Re:You Can't Learn To Program In A Classroom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If I were recruiting for a programming job I wouldn't even consider qualifications and wouldn't care whether the applicant had a degree or not. What I'd instead want to see is examples of the programs the applicant had produced. This would confirm that they could actually program (since many people with degrees can't) and that they have the enthusiasm and dedication to be good programmers. If all you have is a degree or some certificate from a bootcamp, and can't show any work that demonstrates your programming skills, then it's clear that you have no programming skills, nor do you have any interest in programming.

      If the advertisements for these programming bootcamps is accurate, the students / learners build a portfolio, presumably accessible online, to show prospective employers. The bootcamp tuition is not inexpensive and the student loans tie-in for these pilot programmes should be a red flag. There is no reason for charge more than 5000 dollars for the entire bootcamp which could be delivered online; twenty thousand dollars is robbery unless they can guarantee a well-paying, non-abusive workplace upon completion with say a 90% average GPA. Some of the bootcamps whose advertisements I have read seem like a truly immersive and practical hands-on curriculum combined with impressive placement results. Unfortunately, no third-party has ever verified the claims.

    2. Re:You Can't Learn To Program In A Classroom by johannesg · · Score: 1

      Oh, I can show you that portfolio already. It's called "stackoverflow". If you have ever browsed through that you'll see how much "a few weeks of bootcamp" is worth...

    3. Re:You Can't Learn To Program In A Classroom by Hevel-Varik · · Score: 1

      There are some in NY that take a percentage out of the first year's salary and no tuition. have a friend who went to one of them and it worked for him, but they are selective. The better boot camps (per my research YMMV) are full time an on-site because your literally writing code with mentors and peers for crazy hours. They probably do more coding in a month or do than a working coder will do in 5 or 6. At some point, though the starting salary will go from 60-80 to 35-50, no doubt about it. It's the new office work.

    4. Re:You Can't Learn To Program In A Classroom by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      A bootcamp sounds great though for an experienced professional to pick up a new skill. When it comes to IT stuff, my experience is that a focused approach with plenty of hands on works best. You don't learn a new development framework well by trying a couple of tutorials from a book, you need to do an actual project. You can try this on the job, which usually sucks royally for all involved (unless you set up specifically for this). Or you do this yourself but this requires time and focus that not everyone may be able to muster in their spare time. You'll lack feedback as well, unless you happen to find a suitable and active FOSS project to work on.

      A boot camp is better, as long as it's not just paint-by-numbers coding; students need to create their own code, which is then inspected and commented on. When I wanted an app, I tought myself iOS coding which was plenty hard as an experienced coder, and I learned a lot by doing. But I learned the most from when others took a look at that code and suggested improvements (after they stopped crying, of course). I can see how such a learning approach could be condensed into an intensive n-week course. What a good boot camp gives you is purpose, focus, and feedback.

      One time I tried to bring a boot camp approach to the job instead. We had a small project team, set up do work in an environment that none of us had a great deal of experience with (though no one was a complete noob in it either). So we brought on an experienced dev to help, and a trainer providing coaching and feedback during the first development cycle of 12 weeks, including individual coaching sessions as well as classroom learning with examples and exercises taken from the actual project. Expensive as hell, but thankfully the budget for this approach was accepted, and the results were astounding... the end result of the project was ok but probably a hell of a lot better than it would have been otherwise. But the real result was training the staff, who were taken from junior to medior level on that product in a rather short timeframe. The next project they did on their own ,effectively and with confidence.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    5. Re:You Can't Learn To Program In A Classroom by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Full agreement here. Job interviews where they set you little exams or focus on your qualifications are usually a sign that you don't want to work there. You will be stuck with crappy old code written by barely competent people. If they spend a lot of time looking at examples of work and discussing past projects, it's a good sign.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    6. Re:You Can't Learn To Program In A Classroom by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      You need to learn some pointers from your more politically savvy but less technically competent coworker. At the rate things are going, I can easily tell you who is going to come out ahead.

    7. Re:You Can't Learn To Program In A Classroom by johannesg · · Score: 1

      There's just such a mountain of crap on stackoverflow. Newbies are apparently all of them trying to reimplement std::vector or std::list, and they all want to do C-style strings. Worse, they get all offended when you point them towards the standard library solutions. Apparently there's some truly lousy teachers around... The weird thing about C++ is that it is actually bloody easy if you stay away from the crappy C parts, but since everyone seems hell-bent on doing things in as complicated a fashion as possible it makes it look like a difficult language.

      Anyway, you should possibly have given that evidence to the manager in a private setting, so he could avoid losing face (and perhaps avoid some of the damage as well). Someone must have given that coworker access to production, after all...

  5. Re:Yay! More women learning Python under 2 week! by hhas · · Score: 1

    Now see, this attitude is precisely why we can't have nice things. Like girlfriends.

  6. OMG, I just woke up in 1999! by ErichTheRed · · Score: 1

    If this isn't an indicator of the top of the Second Dotcom Bubble, I don't know what is.

    I'm old enough to remember the first one. Since I'm a systems guy and not a developer, my side of the house had "MCSE Bootcamps." I worked for a consulting company at the time, so I got sent to one. These were some really interesting operations; some people were clearly there to cram for the exams but had real world experience, and others were basically off the street with zero idea what was going on. The second batch had just heard there was a lot of money to be made in computers...lots of former truck drivers, plumbers, etc. Lots of these places had similar business models to ITT Tech, U of Phoenix, etc. in that they would take people's federal trade readjustment (re-training) benefits or veterans' education benefits and return a dubious education.

    So, now that we have the cloud doing the infrastructure for most of these startups, the thing they need is a stream of cheap web framework monkeys. Coder bootcamp will certainly give them that...but they'll only be able to copy-paste stuff from one of the millions of JavaScript front-ends.

  7. A shower of gold . . . by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Me: You don't seem to like IT, but you are working in it. Why?

    Him: The government told me that I could make a lot of money in IT.

    Me: Are you happy in working in IT?

    Him: No.

    Tossing out code camp degrees massively to folks might seem to the government folks that they have increased the IT skill pool.

    They are wrong.

    --
    Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  8. bad idea we don't need 4-6 years of school + bootc by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    bad idea we don't need 4-6 years of school + boot camp just to have a chance at a job. Where you may be going up against an h1-b who does not have an 50-100K loan to pay off.

    Or you do you want to be like med school where you starting working at your 30's with 250-500K in loans but the down site is no unions and you may just get layed off be for you can pay that loan off.

  9. free money from the govt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Free Money From the Government! Except for not the students, the money doesn't go to them, it does however go to the companies running these "bootcamps." What they don't tell you is that most of these companies are owned by a congressman's son in law.

    Let me make clear, NOBODY will actually get a job from these programs. Not a single person.

    Can you learn to speak a foreign language in the time frame these "bootcamps" claim to? No? Neither can a programming language.

    To be honest government money would be far better spent just simply with make work programs, make people go build picnic benches or something like the Civilian Conservation Corps did in the 1930s. At least we'd have something to show for it.

    1. Re:free money from the govt by Shados · · Score: 1

      What's sad is that a lot of people DO get jobs out of these bootcamps.

      The "You don't need to go to school to make 200k/year" wave is strong, because there's the occasional kid who started coding when they were 5 and self taught by coding 60 hours a day instead of playing Pokemon, who then went in a bootcamp to learn Rails and actually did end up successful.

      Then everyone use their example and go "see!!! This kid became a tech lead at 21 and is making a truck ton of money instead of wasting their time in college!!"

      It's sad and adds a lot of noise to the signal when hiring, since those people are basically trained for a few months to "beat" the interview. Then you have to figure out how to let them go gracefully.

      Now, I'm firmly in the camp that thinks not everyone should go to college, and we should invest more in apprenticeship, encourage people to go in fields that aren't as sexy, and all around stop worshiping the diploma. But this isn't the way to do it. Companies have trouble hiring software engineers because many positions require highly qualified people. Pumping out more from bootcamps isn't gonna help that at all.

    2. Re:free money from the govt by jon3k · · Score: 1

      This basically nails it. I have a friend who gets a dozen resumes a week from these kids. And literally they expect a $100k start salary after completing a six week coding bootcamp from some "dojo".

      Maybe there is work for cranking out web sites but I'm really confused as to who is hiring non-classicly trained Ruby Bootcamp Graduates? Need a website? Great, download a CMS (Drupal, Wordpress, Joomla) and buy/make a template for it. Need an internal line of business app - great, who uses Ruby for that? I'm just not sure what they're hiring these guys and gals to do?

    3. Re:free money from the govt by Hevel-Varik · · Score: 1

      the ruby track isn't hiring anymore. the js guys however are still getting hired. one of the 3 guys I know who went to bootcamps and got hired did one for Ruby but now works in the JS world. All 3 have progressed in their knowledge. You don't stop learning when you leave the bootcamp and get hired. That's what slashdot doesn't seem to get. It's just gets you a foot in the door, then you start learning on someone elses dime. it's been a great deal, but the ROI is declining.

    4. Re:free money from the govt by jon3k · · Score: 1

      I don't think anyone thinks you stop learning. I think everyone assumes you can't cram 4 years of actual computer science into 6 weeks. You can't possible learn all the fundamental elements from the major courses (Operating Systems, Data Structures, etc).

    5. Re:free money from the govt by Hevel-Varik · · Score: 1

      you can't, but you can get hired, at least for now. Then if you wish you can read a algo_ds textbook and an OS text book, and after about two years you are at par with a standard graduate.

      the bootcamps do what tons of theory cannot, namely, get you enough hands on to hit a entry level job running. While it lasts it's a great thing, as you can take your severance and re-tool and get into a new thing in a matter of months.

  10. Bridge For Sale, Slightly Used. Brooklyn, NY by hhas · · Score: 1

    Make Up To $37,000,000/Hr In Taxpayer Funds While Working From /Home!

    Learn This One Simple Trick That Computer Scientists Don't Want You To Know About!

    This Guy Learned 9 Programming Languages in 6 Weeks, You Won't Believe What Happ...SIGSEGV at 0x0

    Eh, there's a MOOCher born every minute...

  11. Gravy train...enabled by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

    >> testing new ways to fund training for computer careers

    Gravy train...enabled. Kickbacks...online.

  12. Bidding war to hire my gray-haired self by raymorris · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Last time my old, gray-haired self was interested in switching jobs, companies were willing to pay 30% more than they had budgeted for the position in order to compete with my other offers.

    If people don't want to hire you, the problem might not be your age.

  13. Tax credit worked for me... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2

    I went back to community college on a post-9/11 $3,000 tax credit for job retraining to learn computer programming. Since I already had an A.A. degree, I only had to take the programming classes to get my A.S. degree. That took five years to complete. At the beginning I couldn't get some classes because there was too many students. Towards the end I couldn't get some classes because there weren't enough students, as healthcare became the new money major. After working six years a video game tester, I went into IT support. A decade later I'm working fewer hours per week (my employment contracts prohibit working OT), making more money and paying more in taxes.

  14. Education isn't a "magic bullet" by zerofoo · · Score: 1

    I've been helping out a school near me that is in the process of replacing their IT guy. He built the school a web-based student information system on a cloud-hosted LAMP stack. The position requires maintaining that application, and doing all the infrastructure/desktop support.

    Over the summer I re-engineered their entire network - new firewalls, switches, access points, VLANs, and a new IP phone system.

    I met their new "highly qualified" IT director. She has a masters degree in computer science. We did a walkthrough of the new network design and all the new components. During the review of the firewall rules she asked me a doozy:

    "What's TCP and UDP?"

    How on earth does a Masters Degree holder in Comp Sci get those credentials without understanding basic internet protocols?

    School work only gets you so far in this business.

    1. Re:Education isn't a "magic bullet" by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      How on earth does a Masters Degree holder in Comp Sci get those credentials without understanding basic internet protocols?

      If you think that's bad... When I worked at the Goolge Help Desk, I had to walk a new CS graduate through the process of turning on his PC as no one was standing around like they do in the computer labs. I've been told repeatedly on Slashdot that CS is software theory that has nothing to do hardware theory.

    2. Re:Education isn't a "magic bullet" by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Hope you lied and made up something that would be hilarious when repeated. Like Top Control Protocol and Under Data Control, and how you had to have both or the switches would get jammed by either having not enough control on top of the data or not enough data to control underneath.

      And when that happens, you need to remove ALL the cables from your PC before rebooting, not just the ethernet jack, because it's like static electricity - it's just going to stick there - and show that you're not BSing by saying it's just like the sticky bit in linux.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  15. Re:bad idea we don't need 4-6 years of school + bo by Rinikusu · · Score: 1

    Even India has code bootcamps. They're much cheaper than the US (COL differences), but they have their equivalent fees and structures. I saw them advertised all over the place in Bangalore.

    --
    If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
  16. Re:Yay! More women learning Python under 2 week! by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

    You're no prize either, Bubba. Otherwise, you'd be attracting a better class of woman.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.