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Europe's Net Neutrality Doesn't Ban BitTorrent Throttling (torrentfreak.com)

Millions of Europeans will have to do with throttling on BitTorrent. The Body of European Regulators of Electronic Communication (BEREC) published its guidelines for Europe's net neutrality rules on Tuesday in which it hasn't challenged the BitTorrent throttling practices by many ISPs. TorrentFreak reports:Today, BEREC presented its final guidelines on the implementation of Europe's net neutrality rules. Compared to earlier drafts it includes several positive changes for those who value net neutrality. For example, while zero-rating isn't banned outright, internet providers are not allowed to offer a "sub Internet" service, where access to only part of the Internet is offered for 'free.' However, not all traffic is necessarily "neutral." ISPs are still allowed to throttle specific categories for "reasonable" network management purposes.

66 comments

  1. INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by BringsApples · · Score: 1

    I don't see what's wrong with trottling bit torrent OUTBOUND traffic, so long as INBOUND speed isn't altered. This is the practice in most places already.

    --
    Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    1. Re:INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if I'm paying for a plan that offers a specific upload and download speed? Why is one protocol punished over all others if I choose to use what I am paying for?

    2. Re: INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because. I would not question the reason of the wealthy and the mighty if I were you. You don't want to draw attention to yourself. In this day and age it entails terrible consequences indeed.

    3. Re:INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if I'm paying for a plan that offers a specific upload and download speed?

      I'd be interested in seeing that deal. The ones I know about all say "up to".

    4. Re:INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      One person's outbound is another's inbound.

      Look at it from the ISPs perspective: "Oh, if we screw up outgoing bittorrent traffic then we not only reduce network demands, but we make bittorrent slower for every service provider except ourselves!"

    5. Re:INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. A thousand times THIS.

    6. Re:INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      I don't see what's wrong with trottling bit torrent OUTBOUND traffic, so long as INBOUND speed isn't altered. This is the practice in most places already.

      My current ISP seems to agree with you. They give me 20M down and 256k up. Unfortunately it's not just for bittorrent but for everything. 256k up is barely enough to handle the backchannel so you really can't actually get 20M down because of it. The main point of having low upload is to prevent people from running servers on "consumer" connections but it also hampers innovation across the board and makes many existing services unusable. In my case, I have to turn off wifi on my iphone when I want to use my internet on my desktop because google photos auto backup saturates my pathetic upload and makes my ping times jump to over 2000 milliseconds. I would love for net neutrality to be extended to not being able to differentiate between upload traffic and download traffic.

    7. Re:INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Barring ADSL, naturally...

    8. Re:INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I thought my 800k 300k was bad

    9. Re:INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If my ISP did this I would script a loop to upload Ubuntu to an AWS server 24 hours a day. At least I could burn them for 70 gigs of data every month.

    10. Re: INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Finland there are limits on maximum allowed deviations from advertised speeds, set by the Ministry of Transport and Communications. Thank me the voter for bureucracy and regulations that serve my interests.

    11. Re:INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by BringsApples · · Score: 1

      Right, I understand that. But the bit torrent protocol is designed specifically with limited bandwidth in mind this. Most (if not all) bit torrent software allows for the user to throttle within, setting inbound/outbound speeds. And from my experience, most come and/or get set to unlimited inbound, and much less outbound.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
    12. Re: INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of the benefits of a multiparty system is that you typically have one or two candidates that doesn't only want to screw you over.

    13. Re:INBOUND vs OUTBOUND by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      Limited speed internet is relatively uncommon in Europe (or at least in France). You usually get whatever maximum speed your line and the ISP network can support. Yes, it means that 1 Mbps ADSL and 1 Gbps fiber can be at the same price.
      BitTorrent is hard on the network so throttling it reasonably can make things work better for everyone. Basic QoS stuff.

  2. Government is not the answer. by Dishevel · · Score: 0

    Want better, less restricted, less spyed upon internet?
    Give the government more control.

    This will give us all we want.

    No, it will not. Government guaranteed net neutrality is a farce. It is only there to give the government more control over this wonderful thing. This thing that grew up and out mostly because of the lack of interference from government.
    This will be regretted.

    --
    Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    1. Re:Government is not the answer. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Put the government in charge of QoS priority decisions at the ISP level. What could go wrong?

      I'm just glad we can run torrents on any port. So they can play whack a mole.

      Strong encryption everywhere fixes this.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re: Government is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They will then throttle every port, and then whitelist only the big companies that pay up.

    3. Re:Government is not the answer. by SpankiMonki · · Score: 1

      This thing that grew up and out mostly because of the lack of interference from government.

      Sorry, this thing that grew up and out STARTED with government interference.

    4. Re:Government is not the answer. by emaname · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So let corporations be in control? I can't agree with that.

      Corporations have shown time and again they have NO interest in supplying good service at a reasonable cost to their customers. (Comcast and TW) They want to maximize profit. They will find every way possible to achieve that goal. History proves this. The recent recession is a great example of that behavior. Not to mention Enron and a lot more.

      Currently the ISPs have monopoly power. That's why I'm paying $85/mo for 20Mbps/2Mbps service. And it keeps going up because there is any competition.

      --
      An effective "democracy" creates the illusion the people have a say in their government.
    5. Re:Government is not the answer. by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      ISPs have monopolies in areas simply because local governments have given them the monopolies.
      Your problem is still government.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    6. Re:Government is not the answer. by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      No.
      It started with the government.
      It had no interference at all by them. Just some research money thrown at it early on.

      No regulations, no overwatch, Nothing. This allowed enormous growth and a massive, almost unheard of rate of innovation.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    7. Re:Government is not the answer. by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      The only thing that changes when you substitute "government" in for "corporation" is now the people managing the Internet have guns.

      What a great idea THAT has been shown to be /s

      - Have you considered that the price is going up because demand is going up?
      - Have you considered that a higher price encourages new entrants into the market?
      - Have you looked into how local policies effectively grant monopolies and raise barriers to entry?
      - Have you considered that Enron was merely outright criminal, the same way the government is on a daily basis?
      - Have you considered that profit actually represents the transformation of scarce, valuable resources (labor, capital, materials) into something more valuable (Internet service)?

    8. Re:Government is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was always true yet you seem to be saying that government recently got in the way of internet growth. I think you don't know what you are talking about. The past you seem to be glorifying had more government involvement, not less.

    9. Re:Government is not the answer. by SpankiMonki · · Score: 1

      Government gave you your pretty little thing....why do you hate it so much?

    10. Re:Government is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it will not. Government guaranteed net neutrality is a farce. It is only there to give the government more control over this wonderful thing. This thing that grew up and out mostly because of the lack of interference from government.

      Of course the two other alternatives are:
      A) Let a single/few companies have control over the internet which by extension gives the government control over internet through them plus the extra benefit of having one more entity that wants to screw you over.
      B) Real competition which requires a strong government to break up the existing cartel. (This isn't going to happen because the government prefers option A.)

      Or did you have an actual solution to the problem that isn't listed here?

    11. Re:Government is not the answer. by Jahta · · Score: 1

      ISPs have monopolies in areas simply because local governments have given them the monopolies. Your problem is still government.

      And there you have one of the classic ironies of "free markets". The proponents of "free markets" publicly preach "small government", but in reality they need the collusion of "big government" to establish and maintain dominant positions in their industries. Some interesting background reading; Monopoly power and the decline of small business: big business vs democracy, growth & equality.

    12. Re:Government is not the answer. by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      The government WANTS control.
      They never really had any before. They started it and left it.

      The internet grew on its own. Now the governments want to regulate it. There is not much of it at the moment. But government covets power and there is a lot of it to be had by regulating the internet.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    13. Re:Government is not the answer. by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      The first thing that should be done should be on the local levels.
      MAKE LOCAL FRANCHISES ILLEGAL!
      Cities making it impossible for competition to come in is and always has been a bad idea.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    14. Re:Government is not the answer. by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      No. Not "The proponents of free markets"
      Big businesses that use government to protect their positions are not proponents of a free market. They may say it, but what they do is anti free market.
      Many people who want a job, or run small businesses want to see more of a truer version of a free market. Do not paint the partners of big government regulations with the same brush as real people that encourage free market capitalism.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    15. Re:Government is not the answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the control the government wants is to ensure that ISPs offer actual internet service on not some AOL facsimile then you might just find that most people are quite happy with that kind of intervention. The government is not one person and many people in it want many different things. Get a grip.

    16. Re:Government is not the answer. by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      Government has never really been known to stop regulating where you want them to. They sort of excel at expanding regulatory power.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    17. Re:Government is not the answer. by Jahta · · Score: 1

      No. Not "The proponents of free markets" Big businesses that use government to protect their positions are not proponents of a free market. They may say it, but what they do is anti free market. Many people who want a job, or run small businesses want to see more of a truer version of a free market. Do not paint the partners of big government regulations with the same brush as real people that encourage free market capitalism.

      Perhaps I should have said [irony]free markets[/irony] instead. The reality is that there is no such thing as a free market. Every market has its rules (written or unwritten); it just depends which set you are playing with. And since the rise of neo-liberalism in the 1980s (under Reagan in the US and Thatcher in the UK) the rules have been stacked in favor of the 1%. What neo-liberals tout as "free market capitalism" is just means to make the 1% ever richer and entrench their power.

      Ironically, the only way to tackle this is to elect governments with the will and the power to curb the power of big corporates and the wealthy 1%; i.e. change the rule book. The markets won't magically level the playing field. There's no profit in that for the dominant players.

  3. Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bring it down to a crawl. These selfish people take up all the bandwidth in order to move stolen contents. It seems the solution has been technical all along.

    1. Re:Good by Air-conditioned+cowh · · Score: 1

      Bring it down to a crawl. These selfish people take up all the bandwidth in order to move stolen contents. It seems the solution has been technical all along.

      "Stolen contents" such as Linux Distros and other legitimate ISOs?

  4. What's the complaint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Your BitTorrent packets have lower priority than most other traffic. That's objective fact.
    Net Neutrality has nothing to do with it. No one's treating the packets differently based on address.

    1. Re:What's the complaint? by shaitand · · Score: 0

      "Net Neutrality has nothing to do with it. No one's treating the packets differently based on address."

      That would make sense if net neutrality were limited in some way to treating packets differently based on address. Net neutrality applies to all throttling of all kinds for all reasons. It is none of my ISP's business what kind of packets I'm sending to who and not their perogative to decide which bits of my traffic are more important than other bits or even to inspect my traffic so they could do such a thing.

    2. Re:What's the complaint? by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No reasonable definition of net neutrality makes QoS illegal.

      The fact on the ground is some packets do get priority.

      Do you even think it's reasonable to prioritize your torrent packets the same as your neighbors VOIP traffic?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:What's the complaint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you even think it's reasonable to prioritize your torrent packets the same as your neighbors VOIP traffic?

      Yes. I pay for them to give and receive packets. If this is too hard, they should be made to sell the infrastructure to someone who can.

    4. Re:What's the complaint? by Wycliffe · · Score: 2

      The fact on the ground is some packets do get priority.

      Do you even think it's reasonable to prioritize your torrent packets the same as your neighbors VOIP traffic?

      I have no problem with a "fast lane" and a "slow lane". I have a problem with my ISP deciding which of my traffic gets to go into which lane. This control should be given to the consumer. They should let the consumer mark their VOIP as fast and their torrent as slow and if I want to flag all my bittorrent for the fast lane, I should be allowed to do that and they can charge different rates for the different lanes. Free nights/weekends would be another way of encouraging non-realtime traffic to offload to less busy times but just as my utility company doesn't charge me differently based on how I use my electricity and water, ISPs shouldn't be allowed to charge me differently or throttle me based on how I use my connection.

    5. Re:What's the complaint? by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      You share bandwidth with your neighbor.

      Are you OK with him setting his torrent traffic priority to 1? Even if it interferes with your VOIP and gaming?

      If you want guaranteed bandwidth to a major connection point it will cost you a little more than a consumer grade connection.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    6. Re:What's the complaint? by shaitand · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Do you even think it's reasonable to prioritize your torrent packets the same as your neighbors VOIP traffic?"

      Absolutely. I think it's reasonable to prioritize MY voip traffic over my torrent traffic but I don't think it's reasonable to prioritize any of my neighbors traffic over any of my own. Some sort of equal token bucket system is most reasonable.

    7. Re:What's the complaint? by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 2

      Do you even think it's reasonable to prioritize your torrent packets the same as your neighbors VOIP traffic?

      Generally speaking: yes. Two customers with the same service plan shouldn't be treated differently based on the content (or port numbers) of their packets.

      With that said, if the ISP wants to give each customer a limited amount of dedicated high-priority bandwidth based on the DiffServe IP header field, and let customers decide for themselves how to allocate it, that would be perfectly fine.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    8. Re:What's the complaint? by shaitand · · Score: 2

      "Are you OK with him setting his torrent traffic priority to 1? Even if it interferes with your VOIP and gaming? "

      There is no reason everyone on the connection can't be given an equal share bucket regardless of the type of traffic. When there is no contention, by all means use all the slots but when the three of us are all pushing packets at the same time we should get an equal number of slots. If I want to priortize one of my traffic types over another within my slots that is my call but in no case should I get more contested slots than my neighbor just because I, you, or the ISP thinks one type of traffic is more important and worthy of service than another. It's important to you to have stutter free voip but no more so than my download finishing faster is to me.

    9. Re:What's the complaint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about those ISPs that use QoS to always throttle some protocols like at a fixed speed?
      There's one that limits anything that isn't video streaming to a fraction of the available bandwidth.

    10. Re:What's the complaint? by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      Net neutrality applies to all throttling of all kinds for all reasons.

      No, it does not. Net "neutrality" means you treat the sources of data the same way, not that you treat all data the same way. It is neutral if an ISP doesn't prioritize its own VoIP services over other providers, for example. The question to ask is if the traffic shaping is creating an advantage for the ISP. That's what "neutral" means in this context. If it's for traffic management for all of the same kinds of traffic, it's part of the system design from the very beginning.

      It is none of my ISP's business what kind of packets I'm sending

      That's a different issue than net neutrality. That's privacy.

      and not their perogative to decide which bits of my traffic are more important than other bits

      The issue is not "important" (a very subjective measure), but what traffic does not need low latency. VoIP only works reasonably well if all the packets get there fast enough; file downloads or email or many other things work just as well if the packets are a little bit "late" or even out of order. If you're trying to say that your FTP download of a distribution ISO (or torrent of the same) is as important as someone else's VoIP session, that's just selfish. Net neutrality has nothing to do with selfish, it has to do with not creating an artificial advantage for services sold by the ISP over services sold by others.

    11. Re:What's the complaint? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you even think it's reasonable to prioritize your torrent packets the same as your neighbors VOIP traffic?

      Yes, absolutely. However my torrent packets should be prioritized lower than my own VoIP packets. That way, I don't have to throttle my bittorrents to keep my Internet working well. I've set up QoS with Cisco's MQC, and it does exactly that. QoS should be first-layer within a household, as I described, and under the customer's control with no negotiations around it. Perhaps there may be a flat fee to do the QoS at all, like a fee for renting a cable box, but there must be no fees for turning the knobs any way the user wants, or else it isn't neutral.

      Ideally this should be enforced by having the QoS implemented by a device not under the ISP's control. For inbound traffic, or for outbound traffic on shared channels like DOCSIS, this is a little bit tricky, but there are existing designs that can do it. In the upstream direction, the marking/policing diffserv model should work. In the downstream direction, you need a stateful firewall to copy marks from upstream packets onto downstream ones: I have configured such a firewall and used it to prioritize interactive ssh sessions over scp sessions, and it does work. It would be nice to have more flexible designs and protocols for mutually-distrusting QoS, though.

      Then, after the first layer, a second layer of QoS should treat all households equally. I believe this already exists at the DOCSIS head end. It controls the timeslice grants it gives on the upstream channel to each household, and it chooses which downstream bits it wants to inject into the shared downstream channel.

      For the third layer of QoS, currently we treat all TCP sessions equally within the Internet core. That's unfarily biased in favour of bittorrent, but it's a problem that doesn't need to be solved because the core is uncongested except for business reasons: Comcast wanting to get paid on both ends, Level3 vs Cogent brinksmanship. Defining QoS in the core will make these business negotiations more fruitful and therefore make the Internet worse. It's actually better if whatever traffic ISPs can squeeze the least amount of money from accidentally gets the highest priority. It's also less useful to do QoS in the core than the original QoS speculative architects thought because they imagined large output buffers that we don't actually have, and they imagined VoIP needs fewer packet drops than TCP which it doesn't because (1) you can just do FEC and (2) high-rtt TCP is very drop-sensitive. VoIP mostly needs low jitter which is delivered by having tiny buffers, which we do everywhere except the last mile where I already said we should do QoS.

      The two layers together are enough to keep your neighbor's VoIP session clear. There's no need to look inside packets at the second layer.

      There are ways of productively violating the layer boundary, like "each household is guaranteed 2Mbit/s, even if everyone flushes the internet toilet at once. Therefore you may mark up to 2Mbit/s of traffic as 'do not drop', and it won't be dropped. It can be any traffic you want." This violation is needed becaouse it's somewhat difficult to implement the first layer when you don't know what bandwidth the second layer will assign you, and I would prefer the two layers be implemented on mutually-distrusting devices because otherwise the cable companies will weasel back control of the first layer.

    12. Re:What's the complaint? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Bittorrent is a background distribution system. You are simply wrong that it should hog bandwidth "because, Homer, packets r packets."

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  5. So no hat trick for slashdot.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You guys were only one more story away!!!

  6. QoS != Net Neutrality Violation by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Net Neutrality is an issue of prioritising traffic based on source.
    Throttling bitcoin is an issue of prioritising traffic based on protocol.

    Net Neutrality rules shouldn't cover this, not unless it's lumped together in an overarching them of Quality of Service.

    1. Re:QoS != Net Neutrality Violation by ADRA · · Score: 1

      We aren't neutering Netflix IP's! We're just neutering the packets that look just like Netflix ones, but that's just a coincidence!

      Sadly, from a legal perspective, it'd be hard to determine the legal grounds for neutrality without specifically declaring what are legal grounds for QoS control and which ones aren't. Since accountFeatures & (source/destination) are probably the most relevant QoS controls, I'd like to see how this plays out.

      --
      Bye!
    2. Re:QoS != Net Neutrality Violation by FeelGood314 · · Score: 2

      I would love to have the ISPs do QoS based on protocol and other metrics other than source/destination. Think about it, if there is congestion would you rather :
      your Skype call stutter or your download of a movie take an extra few seconds.
      your minecraft swing be delayed by 2/10 of a second or a web page add take 1 second longer to load

      Unfortunately do I trust most ISPs to not game this to their own ends?

    3. Re:QoS != Net Neutrality Violation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right net neutrality has nothing to do with layer 7 (application layer) or even layer 4(transport layer). It's a layer 3 (network layer) matter.
      It should be illegal for any machine in the chain other than the target to even parse anything past layer 3. Just like it's illegal for the post office to read your mail. The only thing the isp needs to know is which ip to route the packet to. What's in it or even what tcp port it's going to is none of their business.

      These are two different discussions and for some reason people seem to think it's ok to make an end run around net neutrality by using information that should be illegal to even read in the first place.

  7. DO with throttling?! by the_skywise · · Score: 0

    "Millions of Europeans will have to do with throttling on BitTorrent"

    1. Re:DO with throttling?! by Sowelu · · Score: 1

      That's entirely grammatical where I come from.

    2. Re:DO with throttling?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How odd. A language with English vocabulary and some other syntax!

    3. Re:DO with throttling?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Millions of Europeans will have to do with throttling on BitTorrent"

      Yes. Like "... have to deal with...". It isn't an uncommon or incorrect phrase. Like "... do away with...".

  8. More Neutral Than Others by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

    All network accesses are neutral, but some accesses are more neutral than others.

  9. .nl rules are more strict (as they should) by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Luckily the Dutch rules around neutrality are more strict. The Dutch also tried to push these same rules to be applied to the whole EU. But the corporate world convinced these "politicians" otherwise.

    In the Netherlands "zero rating" is strictly prohibited: https://www.bof.nl/2016/05/25/...

  10. Mail, except for a short list of providers by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    In the US (and probably EU). inbound mail (SMTP), etc is usually blocked by ISPs. And sometimes outbound SMTP is also blocked except for a few select mail providers plus access to the ISP's own mail server.

    It's probably the only way to keep spam under some semblance of control, but it isn't exactly network neutral. It's much easier for me to host my mail server on Google apps, than it is for me to continue running mail on my own hardware at a colo. The IP block I'm on gets blacklisted, most ISPs won't accept mail from me, and some ISPs refuse to even send me mail. I feel that it's hard to get into the email game unless you're Google, Hotmail/Microsoft, Yahoo, and a handful of others that dominate.

    spammers ruined it for us little guys.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:Mail, except for a short list of providers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "spammers ruined it"

      Perhaps. Or perhaps the NSA knows how to eliminate spam, but chooses not to for tactical reasons.

    2. Re: Mail, except for a short list of providers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think the NSA has exclusive access to intelligent people. Wouldn't someone have solved the problem by now, if only to publish their PhD thesis on the subject?

  11. QoS and net neutrality are the same issue... by KonoWatakushi · · Score: 1

    What you have just described gives an artificial advantage (or disadvantage in the case of bittorrent) to managed protocols, discouraging innovation. A neutral network should not discriminate based on packet contents whatsoever. It is fundamentally impossible to fairly classify traffic, because there will always be unknown traffic and lack of agreement on priorities. In some cases, encryption may even prevent classification; why should those packets suffer? The only place where QoS is both functional and useful is on a customers own connection, where they set priorities among their own traffic.

    Beyond that, an ISP has no business discriminating based on address or packet contents. The moment that is allowed, ISPs game the system. As seen, they invest in smart hardware capable of culling unwanted traffic rather than adding capacity, which inevitably results in a more congested network. This devalues the network for all non-priority traffic. There is exactly one good solution: add more capacity when necessary. This is the simplest, least expensive, and perfectly fair. It also ensures that there will be an excess of capacity available for innovative new protocols and uses.

    1. Re:QoS and net neutrality are the same issue... by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      What you have just described gives an artificial advantage (or disadvantage in the case of bittorrent) to managed protocols, discouraging innovation.

      You have it backwards, if anything.

      A neutral network should not discriminate based on packet contents whatsoever.

      That's the issue being debated, not just a conclusion to be stated as final. The Internet was designed with such "discrimination" because the people who designed it understood that it is a useful function.

      If you return to the reason for net neutrality in the first place, it is based on the desire to prevent ISPs from gaining an advantage as both the service and content provider by artificially slowing competitor's content. That doesn't argue for "no discrimination whatsoever", it argues for "no discrimination for the same kinds of content".

      There are very good reasons to prioritize content that needs low latency and guaranteed delivery, like VoIP or streaming video. VoIP starts to fail if the packets show up late or out of order. Your bittorrent of an ISO or video file does not.

      Beyond that, an ISP has no business discriminating based on address or packet contents.

      Address I agree. Completely. That's net neutrality. But contents? Of course they do, and your proof by repeated assertion is still proof by assertion.

      The moment that is allowed, ISPs game the system.

      How so?

      As seen, they invest in smart hardware capable of culling unwanted traffic rather than adding capacity,

      Where have I said anything about culling traffic? Nowhere. That's hyperbole on your part. Prioritizing time sensitive content is not the same as culling everything or anything else. Culling traffic is wrong not because it fails net neutrality tests, it is wrong because it fails to fulfill contractual service provision agreements.

      There is exactly one good solution: add more capacity when necessary.

      Yes, in a perfect world with unlimited money and resources, that is the "exactly one good solution". When you find such a planet where this exists, please let us know.

      This is the simplest, least expensive

      That is not necessarily true. It may be simpler but will hardly be less expensive. If my ISP has to come to my house to install hardware with higher capacity then it will cost someone -- most likely me. If they have to install that hardware for the entire block because one person thinks his ISO download should never every be slowed by even a fraction of a second (not that he's even likely to notice) for any reason at all, then I'm getting charged for his wants and get nothing out of it. That's fair?

      and perfectly fair.

      No. Everyone who has to pay higher rates because some people think it is unfair that their file downloads or email traffic may be slowed temporarily while someone else's VoIP call gets priority is not being treated fairly.

      While it would be the "exactly good solution" for everyone to get infinite bandwidth and never have to share anything with anyone else, that's much more expensive that the current system, and does not exist.

      It also ensures that there will be an excess of capacity available for innovative new protocols and uses.

      So you want not only enough to cover the current need, you want an excess so that someone might be able to invent something new sometime in the future. That's not an argument based on net neutrality, that a blue-sky wonderful utopian view.

  12. its like.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Im sorry this road can only be used by Ferraris.

  13. Libertarian = open borders zealot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have you considered that the mantra of "limited government" means absolutely nothing to those from non-Anglo-American culures?

    And yet you keep bringing them in by the boatload, marginalizing your own position.

    Fuck you, cuck.

  14. Legislation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you actually think more legislation by lobbied politicians was going to come out in your favor?
    Miss the old days when it wasn't so politicized? Me too.