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US Panel Extends Nuclear Power Tax Credit (thehill.com)

Slashdot reader mdsolar quotes The Hill: The House Ways and Means Committee voted Wednesday to remove a key deadline for a nuclear power plant tax credit... The credit was first enacted in 2005 to spur construction of new nuclear plants, but it has gone completely unused because no new plants have come online since then...

It would likely benefit two reactors under construction at Southern Co.'s Vogtle Electric Generating Plant in Georgia and another two at Virgil C. Summer Nuclear Generating Station in South Carolina. Both projects are at risk of missing the 2020 deadline... "When Congress passed the 2005 act, it could not have contemplated the effort it would take to get a nuclear plant designed and licensed," said representative Tom Rice (R-S.C.).

Although one Democrat criticized the extension by arguing that nuclear power "does better in a socialist economy than in a capitalist one, because nuclear energy prefers to have the public do the cleanup, do the insurance, cover all of the losses and it only wants the profits."

22 of 259 comments (clear)

  1. Mature technology by mdsolar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Can't survive without subsidies. Like the buggy whip industry....

    1. Re:Mature technology by Chas · · Score: 2

      Got news for you.

      There is NO type of power generation technology in this country that is NOT subsidized.

      --


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    2. Re:Mature technology by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      2.99c per KWH in OPTIMAL CONDITIONS and after big construction tax credits, it is not a raw production cost. Few, or no, real world installations are providing power at anywhere near that cost, but nice job repeating the solar lobby marketing line.

      Even with net metering and huge tax credits solar barely moved the meter. Now you can make excuses after excuses but its just not happening. In fact, Germany is already cutting back on solar subsidies because they finally realized how much it was costing them.

      Solar's intermittent requires it to ride on the backs of other power sources to be feasible at all. There is a cost associated with that, but I'm sure the folks at cleantechnica don't talk about it much.

  2. Wouldn't need subsidies by tomhath · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let it succeed or fail on it's own merits. Instead of doing everything you can to block it based on irrational and unscientific fear.

    1. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by mspohr · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's failing on its own merits. Even with subsidies, it's too expensive and can't compete.
      The UK just approved a new nuclear plant (Hinckley Point 3) which requires consumers to buy power at a price much higher than wind, solar, coal, or anything else.
      It was approved in the best traditions of corrupt government... advisers to government had a financial stake in it's approval.
      Also, the plant gives the Chinese access to French and UK nuclear technology and control over the plant... a win for everyone except the UK.

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    2. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by mspohr · · Score: 2

      For some reason, China and France are building this reactor in the UK using a new, French EPR design:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      The Chinese are also building this type of reactor in China so pebble bed may not be working out as well as hoped.
      Of course, the EPR design has its problems. It has been built twice (France and China) and both of these have safety problems that may prevent them from getting approval to operate.

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    3. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by Shane_Optima · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The "nuclear is expensive" claim is only true because the anti-nuclear lobby has made it that way. If breeder reactors were used, modern fail-safe designs used (unlike Fukushima's reactors) and a "opportunity cost of human life" approach used to dictate safety regulations, then it would be much cheaper than coal and most renewables. The problem is that everyone views damage from radiation as being much more dangerous than global warming, acid rain, oil spills, toxic heavy metal poisoning, etc. so we overspend and obsess over it ways that we never do over coal.

      (On the international stage, there are also entirely legitimate concerns over weaponization and nuclear proliferation.)

    4. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The nuclear industry has never asked for not having a regulator. But nice way to quote something that was never said. That's the kind of stuff we have come to expect from the anti-nuke lobby.

    5. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by Shane_Optima · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Nonsense. Do you know how many years dioxins last before they degrade? Neither do I. Because no one cares about babysitting extremely toxic chemicals, even if it were demonstrated that they wouldn't degrade for hundreds of years. Toxic heavy metals will last for millions or even BILLIONS years! OMG! Won't someone please think of those babysitting costs??

      Also, the "thousands of years" argument always indicates a profound ignorance of the time value of money.

      Also: keep it on site. Nuclear doesn't generate tons of waste, that's the whole point. It uses very, very little fuel. It can all be stored on site, unless the plant is closed down, which in principle it wouldn't ever need to be because nuclear is by far the cheapest method we have of generating power.

      Nuclear power has gone from too cheap to meter to too expensive to matter and it has nobody to blame but itself.

      Painfully ignorant. Do you understand that nuclear power works in exactly the same as coal except instead of trucking in tons of coal you simply put a pile of fissile material under the water and let it sit there for a very long time before you need to refuel ? The only expense is the initial refining of the U235 but after that you can breed more fuel.

      Beyond these relatively small fixed costs, nearly every single dollar that nuclear costs more than coal is due to increased safety regulations. Some of those regulations we obviously need. One of those safety concerns (namely, security and proliferation concerns) is actually quite worrying. But it is completely wrong to argue that nuclear is intrinsically more expensive than paying to dig up and cart around thousands and thousands and thousands of tons of coal.

    6. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by Tesen · · Score: 2

      Let's just make the market fair by imposing similar restrictions on coal, petroleum and gas. Coal is a radioactive substance too.

      Yes you are correct, but the potential of a nuclear plant releasing highly concentrated deadly amounts of radiation in to the atmosphere in quick succession is higher than that of coal. While I agree coal has a lasting effect on the environment and human health and can lead to chronic health issues, acute radiation poisoning in the short can lead to death and in the long, lead to increased cancer risks and other related health issues.

    7. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by Tesen · · Score: 2

      Painfully ignorant. Do you understand that nuclear power works in exactly the same as coal except instead of trucking in tons of coal you simply put a pile of fissile material under the water and let it sit there for a very long time before you need to refuel ? The only expense is the initial refining of the U235 but after that you can breed more fuel.

      Beyond these relatively small fixed costs, nearly every single dollar that nuclear costs more than coal is due to increased safety regulations. Some of those regulations we obviously need. One of those safety concerns (namely, security and proliferation concerns) is actually quite worrying. But it is completely wrong to argue that nuclear is intrinsically more expensive than paying to dig up and cart around thousands and thousands and thousands of tons of coal.

      Hold on a second "nearly every single dollar that nuclear costs more than coal is due to increased safety regulations. Some of those regulations we obviously need." yes we do. Do you care to identify the safety regulations that you think we do not need that is adding to the cost of nuke?

      Also: "One of those safety concerns (namely, security and proliferation concerns) is actually quite worrying." -- yes, I agree that is the major concern for me. Breeder reactors are generally frowned upon because of their refinement proliferation potential and our direct allies have also shutdown their breeder programs. The only states still operating them are proliferation states. The additional downside to breeder reactors is the increased nuclear waste and higher potential for radiation exposure. These are not marginal concerns, these are quite frankly life altering and life ending concerns.

      My reasons for opposing nuclear power is not because of the science (I understand the science) my concern is I do not trust corporations to operate in the common good. Davis-Besse which is not far from where I live is one of the major concerns I have. You state that increased safety regulations have increased the cost of nuclear power, yes it has, but the operational negligence of operators over the years have required increased safety requirements and Davis-Besse is a prime example of a major lapse in safety culture.

      Other than the safety issues reactor design has come along way since the old 1950->1980's era reactors (for those that disagree ask the US Navy) and modern designs are a lot safer and more reliable. The sticking point is the safety culture surrounding them.

    8. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      Erm no. The anti-nuclear lobby is huge, backed by irrational science, a public mindset thanks to movies like the China Syndrome which came out right before three mile island, and ... wait there was another small insignificant thing ... oh yes political parties in nearly every country in the world.

      The oil and gas industry has pushed the anti-nuke agenda since the 70s. There is huge influence behind it and the FUD they pushed forth still shapes public ignorance today. When it came to nukes, the greens were the oil and gas industry's best tool.

    9. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      Windmill lifespans are generally estimated at 10-15 years, in which time they will need complete replacement, save the tower. That's an issue many don't want to talk about. In the 80+ year lifespan of a new nuclear plant, a windmill will be 5 or more times.

      Solar (the standard panels sold today) is estimated at about 25 to 30 years. It depends on location, as they don't last as long in Arizona as Seattle. So they must be completely replaced three times during the life of the nuclear plant.

      Nuclear does need to do significant component replacements during its life, so that must also be considered, but the most expensive items will last the full life.

      Germany's wind industry costs will start rising in the not too distant future when more and more windmills need to be replaced. That will slow the addition of new wind capacity. Their solar will probably last longer than average because they have very low solar radiance, and so PV across the country only has an average capacity factor of about 10%, where as in good locations you expect closer to 20%.

    10. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by Shane_Optima · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I'm basically just going to be repeating the same points I've made in half a dozen other posts, but it's worth it if I can get through to one more person.

      The additional downside to breeder reactors is the increased nuclear waste and higher potential for radiation exposure. These are not marginal concerns, these are quite frankly life altering and life ending concerns.

      This isn't supported by the evidence or by reasonable hypotheticals. If the engineers and operators can refrain from doing extremely stupid experimental things (Chernobyl), the danger to human life is clearly much lower than coal and oil. Even using old, moronic designs that went into meltdown mode when they lost power to the machinery, the misery and suffering Fukushima inflicted is clearly lower than the suffering inflicted by coal and oil. I'm talking about both the macro and the micro pictures here. There's bits of ground in Chernobyl that I wouldn't want to go picnicking on, sure, but I wouldn't want to picnic in Centralia, either.

      The additional downside to breeder reactors is the increased nuclear waste

      A non-issue. I could give you literally ten different reasons as to why this is a non-issue, but my two favorite ones are there shouldn't be so much nuclear waste that you couldn't keep it all on-site, and that no one cares nearly as much about the long term storage of dioxins or other incredibly hazardous but nonradioactive chemicals.

      My reasons for opposing nuclear power is not because of the science (I understand the science) my concern is I do not trust corporations to operate in the common good.

      Do you trust BP to operate in the common good? Even though they killed a dozen people when Deepwater Horizon exploded? (For those keeping score at home, that's roughly a dozen more than have been killed by commercial nuclear reactors in Amerca.) Even when damn near the entire Gulf of Mexico was darkened with petroleum and they had to spray god knows what on it to get rid of it? What of tanker truck explosions? What of coal mine collapses? What of the thousands of coal seam fires burning around the world today, fires that will keep on burning long after our grandchildren are dead? What of global warming, acid rain decimating vulnerable species, mercury in tuna permanently stunting our childrens' IQs ?

      It's not nuclear or nothing. It's nuclear or hydrocarbons. There is no rational safety reason to choose hydrocarbon over nuclear, none whatsoever, except for the possibility (already acknowledged) of proliferation or other nuclear malevolence. I can't give you a decisive argument on that front , but I hope I can at least disabuse you of the notion that the poisons in coal are somehow safer than small, localized bits of radioactive contamination.

      As far as the tradeoff of safety and cost goes, I believe that safety reform is needed but in its current state it is completely misguided. The emphasis should be on better and more contingency-proof designs and more durable designs, so that we can more or less set it and forget it. Nuclear reactions are not, at their core, all that complicated. It should not require billions of dollars to idiot-proof, but it does require getting over some of our hysteria and some of the red-tape cruft that doesn't add to safety but does add to the price tag.

      Actually, I can give you at least one good argument on the proliferation front, and it addresses your worries (be they valid or not) about breeder reactors: let's downblend our weapons grade fissile materials and use them to power reactors. We've got what, something on the order of 10k warheads? All of them 5x-10x more potent than they need to be for nuclear reactors? Burn 'em. Sign some treaties with Russia and get them to burn theirs, too.

      (Most of them, anyway. I'm inclined more towards a minimal effective deterrence philosophy than a total disarmament philosophy.)

    11. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 2

      Wow, you live under a rock?

      Also: keep it on site. Nuclear doesn't generate tons of waste, that's the whole point. It uses very, very little fuel. It can all be stored on site, unless the plant is closed down, which in principle it wouldn't ever need to be because nuclear is by far the cheapest method we have of generating power.

      Perhaps you should google how many metric tons nuclear waste the USA have accumulated. And how problematic it is to store it.

      Germany is completely overstrained handling its own nuclear waste problem. The main reason why we quit from nuclear power. And we consider us a first world nation. The costs and risks of nuclear waste are not handle able for us. OTOH you can drop the shit in Nevada ... we have no such place.

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    12. Re: Wouldn't need subsidies by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      I am not an expert but I listen to experts. Do you not believe in science, engineering, maths?

      You may not be listening to the right experts then, because nothing you stated is a problem that can't be managed.

    13. Re:Wouldn't need subsidies by Shane_Optima · · Score: 2

      Every one views nuclear damage as more dangerous because it is more dangerous, no ifs no buts.

      You just disqualified yourself from this conversation, sorry. Global warming is, in fact, a thing. Burning coal causing our fish to accumulate mercury, which in turn lowers the IQs of our children, is a thing. If you aren't willing to compare these harmful effects to the effects of nuclear, you are an unreasonable and unthinking person.

  3. Which Democrat? by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not that I'm disagreeing with him/her. I don't like Nuclear because America doesn't have the balls to properly regulate and punish businessmen who flaunt safety. The risks are too great. It's not NIMBY. Make it public run or show me you're willing to throw people responsible for lesser disasters like oil spills in jail for 10-20 years and we'll talk. Until then it'll be like always: privatize the profits, socialize the losses.

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    1. Re:Which Democrat? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I don't like Nuclear because America doesn't have the balls to properly regulate and punish businessmen who flaunt safety.

      Nuclear power is the most tightly regulated industry in the US by far. And the history of penalties and added oversight to poorer performers, and fines and even jail sentences for violations of the law is pretty clear. I guess you just haven't looked for that information.

      The NRC has public meetings almost every day. You are welcome to join and learn.

  4. The cleanup by Tough+Love · · Score: 3

    nuclear power "does better in a socialist economy than in a capitalist one, because nuclear energy prefers to have the public do the cleanup, do the insurance, cover all of the losses and it only wants the profits."

    As opposed to coal fired power where you just shit raw sewage continuously into the air and expect your great grandchildren to clean it up?

    --
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  5. Black swan events by Solandri · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Three Mile Island was the only major commercial nuclear accident in U.S. history. Nuclear power in the U.S. has generated 24,196,167 GWh between 1971-2015. At an average price of 12 cents/kWh, that's $2.90354 trillion. So the approx $3.4 billion in cleanup and lossses from TMI is 0.117% of that. Or in other words, at a retail price of 12 cents/kWh, the historical cost of cleaning up nuclear accidents in the U.S. is 0.014 cents per kWh.

    In contrast, subsidies for different energy sources are 23.1 cents/kWh for solar, 3.5 cents/kWh for wind, and 0.2 cents/kWh for nuclear. (Tables ES4 and ES4. Solar received $4.393 billion in subsidies while generating 19,000 GWh. Wind received $5.936 billion while generating 5,936 GWh, and nuclear received $1.66 billion while generating 789,000 GWh.) That's right. The subsidy for solar is 1650x more expensive than cleaning up nuclear accidents. The subsidy for wind is 250x more expensive.

    Nuclear decommissioning costs are already paid for by the NRC's Financial Assurance fund. A portion of the revenue from electricity sales are placed into this fund.

    The problem with insuring nuclear plants is just a quirk of statistics. The more times you roll the dice, the narrower the bell curve becomes and the more predictable the average outcome. e.g. A 1d100 has an equal chance to produce any result between 1 and 100 - the probability distribution function is a straight line. 2d50 produces a triangular PDF, with the values in the middle tending to be more likely. 10d10 produces an even more compact PDF - a narrow normal curve with results in the middle much more likely than the extremes. And 100d0.5 will always produce 50 - its PDF is just a single peak in the middle.

    This is a problem for insuring nuclear plants - because they produce so much energy you don't need very many of them. Whereas there are thousands of coal plants, and (potentially) millions of solar installations, there are only operating 100 nuclear plants in the U.S. So insuring a nuclear plant represents a greater risk for the insurer. Even though the mean outcome will be that there is 1 accident every 30 years, the chance of a 2nd or 3rd accident is still significant and the amount the insurer has to pay out may easily surpass how much they've collected in premiums if they assume the statistically most likely outcome of a single accident.

    The insurance company's response is to increase the premium to also cover that 2nd or 3rd event even though they're unlikely. In contrast, with thousands of coal plants they can be much more confident that there will be (say) only 10 accidents every 30 years, and 20 or 30 accidents is extraordinarily unlikely. So the premiums can be lower, even if the average risk (mean) is exactly the same. If there were some way to build thousands of small-scale nuclear plants instead of 100 large ones, private insurance wouldn't be a problem. You get around this problem by creating the largest insurance pool possible, which in this case would be nationalized insurance covering all 100 nuclear power plants.

    Statistically, per unit of energy generated, nuclear power is the safest power source man has invented.