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Ask Slashdot: Should An Open Source Hardware Project Support Clones?
Long-time Slashdot reader Ichijo
has a question about "(not quite) open source hardware":
One hardware project that calls itself "open source" doesn't want to make its hardware design source files publicly available because doing so would, in their words, "make it very trivial for e.g Chinese companies to start producing cheap clones... we'd be getting support requests for hardware we had no idea of the quality of." This answer was in response to a request by a user who wants to use the design in his own projects.
Have any other open source hardware projects run into support issues from people owning cheap "clones"? Have clones been produced even without the hardware design source files?
Leave your answers in the comments. Should an open source hardware project support clones?
Have any other open source hardware projects run into support issues from people owning cheap "clones"? Have clones been produced even without the hardware design source files?
Leave your answers in the comments. Should an open source hardware project support clones?
That said, no, open source hardware projects have no obligation to support anybody, let alone clone makers, but it's not open source if the source isn't open. Meaning they shouldn't actively block clone makers.
You can support the design of your open source hardware project. Actively doing this keeps the community cohesive and on point. When it comes to supporting the implementation, If you built it, and you sell it, then you support it. If someone else builds it and sells it then they can support it. If the potential customer buys from someone else and asks for your support because the low cost outfit they bought it from cannot help them, then, charge like wounded bulls, be very suspicious of what your are working with, point out all the problems you so conscientiously find and help out as much as you can. This will offset your costs, make you look good, encourage the customer to buy from you in future and make your low cost competitor look incompetent.
There is a project developed mostly by German classical electronics enthusiasts (they do not use the openHardware et al. buzzwords but in fact software as well as hardware files are freely available) developing a cheap transistor tester (actually does a lot more),
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/AVR_Transistortester
There are 100s of different clones of these available in china. Go to e.g., aliexpress and search for "transistor tester". Most of the things that come up there are the mentioned clones. (One example here in case your search gives different results https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Mega328-Transistor-Tester-Diode-Triode-Capacitance-ESR-Meter-MOS-PNP-NPN-M328/32679703774.html ).
Once people find out the source of this they come to the huge discussion thread of the project and ask for help (why does it not work, software upgrades, ...) for their devices. The main guy is actually helpful towards them. In some cases the Chinese clones have been changed in software or hardware and help is not that easy. Looking at the discussion thread this takes significant resources.
First - it is not really an open source project if it doesn't want to publish the design files/documentation. There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep that secret, but then, please, don't use the "open source" moniker.
Second - yes, the issue with clones is real - just look at Saleae (they produce USB logic analyzer). Their original hardware was widely cloned, because it was basically just a repurposed devboard for a common chip loaded with custom firmware that they made freely downloadable.
That said, the Saleae case also shows how not publishing the design files is ineffective - Saleae didn't publish anything, but all it took for the device to be cloned was someone buying a genuine one and reverse engineering it. It is not that difficult to do if someone really wants to do it.
So in the end who gets punished by the files not being available? Certainly not the cloners but more likely your own legitimate customers who will have more tricky time integrating the device into their own projects or repairing it.
Concerning support of the 3rdparty clones - nobody should be obligated to support unofficial hardware. Just don't be an ass about it, pulling another FTDI (company that tried to sabotage/brick the clones).
Surely if it's Open Source ...
Except in this case it is not open source because the source isn't open. Just because you call yourself "open source" doesn't make it so. You have to actually open the source, and they haven't.
No we can't. Circuit schematics is generally not copyrightable, because it only documents the workings of something else - a physical circuit. It is not considered a work in itself.
Even if it was, then the only thing that copyright license would do is to protect the schematics - not someone reproducing the actual circuit. For that you would have to patent it - which may not be possible (circuit is well known, for ex.) or not practical (patenting costing more than the widget itself). Not to mention that patents are not likely to stop an Asian fly-by-night cloner.
Isn't the whole point of open source to allow anyone to make it themselves?
I see this debated in the Pixhawk circle quite often. The software developers get all upset that chinese vendors used the schematics to produce their own products (??? isn't this the whole point). The 3DR(American) pixhawk costs 2-3x as much as the Chinese version (many wouldn't even own a Pixhawk if they had to buy it at those inflated prices). While the developers make all these claims about how their product is QA tested, they still have all the problems the chinese ones do (or one could say the chinese version has all the problems inherent in the design).
For example, the 3DR version had IMU1 problems because the design had the chip too close to the edge of the PCB, and the vibrations from cutting ruined the chip. The American version has that issue, but the newest 2.4.8 chinese version moves that chip inwards. Wait- the chinese improved upon the design, shocking! The american developers that rip into the product non-stop never mention that.
Or the IMU2 problems with the chip stuck in a brownout state (apparently a very common problem with the LSM303d accelerometer). The original open source design doesn't provide proper discharging of the sensor rail. Chinese fixed that as well
Clones? That isn't very accurate terminology. More like "forks." The 3DR Pixhawk left many issues unresolved, years after they were discovered. Now 3DR has stopped making the original Pixhawk, so if it wasn't for the Chinese forks, there wouldn't be any more. That doesn't get mentioned as a plus either.
I like Clones best when they wear big shoes and juggle. The Chinese are really good jugglers and they need not clone what they already prototype and manufacture for the West. Apple begins with Asia. Cupertino has reverse engineered the weak Chinese currency to benefit their labor costs while price gouging their countrymen and keeping that wealth out of circulation, in reserve for share holders. So they send in Clones and we provide the Comedy and Tragedy of the decline of US prosperity. Now send in the clones, and we'll provide the Clowns.
Usually, when you open the source and want to market it, you trademark the product name, so everybody can copy and clone it ( which is the purpose of open source), but not under the name you control. So they will not be able to taint your reputation.
Simple as that.
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Surely if it's Open Source ...
Except in this case it is not open source because the source isn't open. Just because you call yourself "open source" doesn't make it so. You have to actually open the source, and they haven't.
Its possible for the software to be open source but not the hardware. For example the drivers for a device may be open source, the system software for an appliance, etc.
That said, no, open source hardware projects have no obligation to support anybody, let alone clone makers, but it's not open source if the source isn't open. Meaning they shouldn't actively block clone makers.
The software side of the project may be open source. The drivers, system software, etc. That would make it fair to describe a project as open source.
Also to expand on what you said, open source does *not* mean making your source code or hardware design universally available. You are only obligated to provide it to your customers, albeit with no restrictions on redistribution. Therefore it would be entirely consistent with open source to verify someone is a customer before providing any support. Furthermore it is also entirely consistent with open source to charge for any technical assistance beyond providing the source code or hardware design.
FWIW, the company could charge for technical support of non-cusomters and refer these paying non-customers to their hardware supplier if the hardware is in question. We sort of did that at a company I did technical support for long ago when I was starting out. Not many non-customer paid for support but very few were angry since they understood they had not purchased anything from us. It probably helped that these were more technical folks and not the public at large.
not the original R&D expenses.
Since patents are rewarded regardless of the R&D cost, even if the cost is zero, it's pretty disingenuous to claim that patents are needed to cover R&D cost.
No, as the preceding two posts demonstrate recouping R&D is not the sole motivation for patents. The fact remains that some innovation requires a substantial investment in R&D, and without an ability to recoup that R&D the innovation will likely remain unexplored. Recouping R&D is essential to supporting some innovations, patents help make this possible, therefore patents support innovation.
That said, yes there is abuse in the patent system, the awarding of unworthy patents. However such abuse does not change the fact that patents provide an important tool that supports innovation.
http://www.tiplj.org/wp-conten...
Ref section 99.
That's not an authoritative citation.
It's the opinion of David G. Luettgen in a journal article, which claims computer programs are also not copyrightable. It also claims in its conclusion that electrical circuits are a creative expression, while computer programs are not.
The guy is kind of talking out his arse.