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MuckRock Identifies The Oldest US Government Computer Still in Use (muckrock.com)
Slashdot reader v3rgEz writes:
When MuckRock started using public records to find the oldest computer in use by the U.S. government, they scoured the country -- but it wasn't until a few tipsters that they set their sights a little higher and found that the oldest computer in use by the government might be among other planets entirely.
The oldest computer still in use by the U.S. government appears to be the on-board systems for the Voyager 1 and 2 space probes -- nearly 40 years old, and 12.47 billion miles away from earth. (Last year NASA put out a call for a FORTRAN programmer to upgrade the probes' software.) But an earlier MuckRock article identified their oldest software still in use on earth -- "the computers inside the IRS that makes sure everybody is paying their taxes". And it also identified their oldest hardware still in use -- "the machines running the nuclear defense system". (The launch commands are still stored on 8-inch floppy disks.)
The oldest computer still in use by the U.S. government appears to be the on-board systems for the Voyager 1 and 2 space probes -- nearly 40 years old, and 12.47 billion miles away from earth. (Last year NASA put out a call for a FORTRAN programmer to upgrade the probes' software.) But an earlier MuckRock article identified their oldest software still in use on earth -- "the computers inside the IRS that makes sure everybody is paying their taxes". And it also identified their oldest hardware still in use -- "the machines running the nuclear defense system". (The launch commands are still stored on 8-inch floppy disks.)
Those old 8bit launch control machines are so dated and incompatible that no one will be tempted to put them on the fucking internet and then blame russian/chinese hackers for their own malfeasance.
Let's replace the computers controlling the nuclear launch system with ones from Lenovo! ROFLMAO! After all, just about every major computer component is made in China. Let's make it easy for our new overlords.
I'm curious if we still use any of the systems from the Minuteman-III from 1960 are still in use. I know they occasionally get upgrades, but I'd be willing to be some original stuff is still in use in some capacity.
I imagine the old 8" floppies mentioned in one of the linked Slashdot articles were quite sturdy and reliable, at least compared to the crap 3 1/2" floppies I had the (dis)pleasure of using, right about the time CD-R drives started to become common on PCs. Read errors, "Track 0 bad -Disk unusable" and other such shit being fairly common no matter what floppy disk brand or how good the floppy drive in the computer was. Sometimes, after many tries, and some physical manupulation of the disk I could get the disk to finaly read the "bad" sector correctly, so I could copy the data off of it before it went into the garbage. I rarely had these problems with the 5 1/4" disks I used years before. Old computer equipmemt from 30+ years ago were built like tanks, designed to last at least a decade, much more reliable due to the primitive, simple OSes and software, the chips themselves had bigger/thicker transistors runing at very low speeds, and most used "hardwired" mask roms for the BIOS. Your tablet or phone probaly won't work 30 years from now due to the contents and BIOS data fading from the flash chips used for everything including system roms, but as long as the old antique hardware from the 80s back is kept in good condition, they will probaly still work fine centuries later, at least after the capacitors are replaced (caps are rather volitile, even modern ones).
...and it got few comments.
There's just no pleasing this crowd.
FWIW, I had trouble with 8" drives, not the diskettes themselves. The 5.25" and 3.5" stuff never failed on me, not once.
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
was one of the earliest grammar programs responsible for writing this article? holy shit.
There is a GAO report covering legacy US Government systems. It has somewhat more detail.
http://www.gao.gov/assets/680/...
It has this to say about the nuke system:
The Strategic Automated Command and Control System is the Department of Defense’s (Defense) dedicated high-speed data transmission, processing, and display system. The system coordinates the operational functions of the United States’ nuclear forces, such as intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers, and tanker support aircrafts, among others. For those in the nuclear command area, the system’s primary function is to send and receive emergency action messages to nuclear forces.
According to Defense officials, the system is made up of technologies and equipment that are at the end of their useful lives. For example, the system is still running on an IBM Series/1 Computer, which is a 1970s computing system, and written in assembly language code. It also uses 8-inch floppy disks, which are a 1970s-era storage device; and assembly programming code typically used in mainframes. Replacement parts for the system are difficult to find because they are now obsolete.
and regarding the IRS system:
The Internal Revenue Service’s (IRS), Individual Master File (IMF) is the authoritative data source for individual taxpayer accounts. Within IMF, accounts are updated, taxes are assessed, and refunds are generated as required during each tax filing period. Virtually all IRS information system applications and processes depend on output, directly or indirectly, from this data source.
IMF was written in an outdated assembly language code and operates on a 2010 IBM z196/2817-m32 mainframe. This has resulted in difficulty delivering technical capabilities addressing identify theft and refund fraud, among other things. In addition, there is a risk of inaccuracies and system failures due to complexity of managing dozens of systems synchronizing individual taxpayer data across multiple data files and databases, limitations in meeting normal financial requirements and security controls, and keeping pace with modern financial institutions.
I'm sure a modern operating system will make us all far safer.
On the flip side, we have the modern IBM System i. All software written for the very first System/38 in the 1970s runs unchanged and without recompilation on its followup, the AS/400.
This same software also continues to run on today's IBM System i running the very latest hardware.
A similar situation exists on the System/360 line, which also continues to run on modern hardware today.
Think of all the many rehosting failures that could have been avoided.
Kriston
I'm not so sure it's a good idea to upgrade to something more modern and hackable so we can all get killed faster through big data, crowdsourcing, the cloud and an app (iOS and Android - $1.99).
Just curious - how secure do you suppose the IRS computers are against eFiled tax returns using buffer overflow attacks?
Pioneer 6 is older than both voyagers.
It was last successfully contacted in 2000, and they haven't tried again since then. Might come to the top if they try again.
captcha; servers
Guess he will not be coming back yet....oh well.
The AS/400 is more the follow on for the S/38.
Which was the end of the S/38-S/36-S/34-S/32, stated with a similar instruction set to the System/3, possibly actually the first 'personal computer' despite the physical size. The System/3 Mod 6 was intended for interactive mode, promoted BASIC as the programming language of choice despite true lack of support from IBM, and even had a cassette drive for updates/diagnostics. See a picture of the CE panel almost makes me shed a tear.
System/i is an AS/400 rebrand, folllowing the eServer rebrand. My brother thinks the S/32 on to current iSeries machines are just the best thing ever for their intended markets and is the best valueout there, but even he would rather IBM tore the badges off and spend more time on QA for the OS updates. He doesn't even care what the chips are inside, so long as it keeps up.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
The MuckRock article makes a bit too much of the situation.
For the SAC C&C, the Series/1 is a well-documented piece of hardware that shouldn't be difficult to keep running pretty much in perpetuity. Even if we ran out of 8" floppies, it wouldn't be hard to emulate the device with a more modern storage medium.
As for the IRS, why would it suffer "catastrophic systems failure"? They've updated the hardware, and IBM is not going to stop producing System z machines any time soon. 370 assembly language (presumably what the IMF and BMF applications are written in, though the 370 gave way to ESA/390 and now z) really is not that hard - it's a CISC architecture with a straightforward instruction set, and very well documented. I know a number of very good developers with extensive 3xx / z assembly knowledge; I know some myself. And any competent programmer could learn it from the manuals if necessary.
Yes, it seems inevitable that eventually these systems will become more expensive to replace than to maintain. But the replacement cost is higher than some people seem to think, since it has to include equivalent capabilities - particularly in areas like reliability and security - and a lot of testing. Projects to replace legacy systems (what's sometimes called a "rip-and-replace") fail even more often than major greenfield software projects, often at huge cost.
so they think. Anybody tried to read them lately?
Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
Yeah, the Rochester facility was always playing second fiddle even after the AS/400 was a proven success.
A good book treatment is in "Fortress Rochester: The Inside Story of the IBM iSeries" by Frank G. Soltis.
Kriston
The Porsches without aircon are for 'performance' reasons, they're lightened track versions of standard cars which do have aircon as standard. Most performance car makers do some models like that. Basically they take a lot of stuff away (radio, door handles, floor mats) and charge more for it.