More Software Engineers Over Age 40 May Join a Lawsuit Against Google (yahoo.com)

More trouble for tech giants and how they are dealing with people. Google suffered a setback in an age discrimination suit this week. A judge ruled that other software engineers over age 40 who interviewed with the company but didn't get hired can step forward and join the lawsuit. From a Business Insider report: The suit was brought by two job applicants, both over the age of 40, who interviewed but weren't offered jobs. Specifically, the judge has approved turning the suit into a "collective action" meaning that people who "interviewed in person with Google for a software engineer, site reliability engineer, or systems engineer position when they were 40 years old or older, and received notice on or after August 28, 2014, that they were refused employment, will have an opportunity to join in the collective action against Google," the ruling says. While this isn't good news for Google, the ruling was strictly focused on whether the suit could be broadened to include more people. It doesn't mean that Google will ultimately lose the case. Google says it's fighting the suit.

Comments

If

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're old, white and male... you ARE the problem.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

Being white and make isn't an issue, it's a pro.

Being old is a huge issue. Google will learn from this though, they won't even bring in programmers for interviews if they're 40 or older, and if they can't be sure, they won't take the chance.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

Execute any white male who isn't begging and sniveling, prostrate and crying, asking for forgiveness for crimes he did not commit.

Re:If

[noshellswill]

If old + white is the problem, then  canny historians observe DW-357-cal may be the solution. Consider the lack of disruption: as GOOGLE / FACEBOOK / TWITTER autocracy disappear in-a-twinkle of cordite  we find  cultural and technical loss = 0.0 with a dozen superior competitive replacements available at every Silicon Valley StarBucks.

Then, the ol' Nordic-Med  white-guy blend ... who imagined, organized, built and extended the American republican culture and muscle can get on with their business; that a classical H. Ford, Hughs and Hewlitt/Packard kind of  builders culture. Lubricious, rent-seeking, acquisitive and violent (law=Gub'mnt gunbarrel)  Bantu, narco.MEX and Semites can drain-to-the-fringes or stay-the-fuck out.

Re: If

[darthsilun]

Being white and male isn't an issue, it's a pro.

Being old is a huge issue. Google will learn from this though, they won't even bring in programmers for interviews if they're 40 or older, and if they can't be sure, they won't take the chance.

News to me. I'm over 50 and have had a couple interviews with the googs. But I have a job I like and wasn't terribly interested in the job they were trying to fill, so I wasn't disappointed when the interviews didn't advance to the next round. In fact one of their recruiters just left me a message last week trying to get me to bite....

But maybe I could join the suit anyway – just for shits and giggles – on the basis that they didn't hire me because I'm over 40.

But I have a theory that a lot of these fishing expeditions are just to lure talent away and disrupt other companies. Google, if that's what you're doing, just make an offer. I'm not interested in fucking around with bogus interviews. You can see my work in FOSS going back 25 years. It's all in git, cvs, etc.. If your offer is good enough I might even accept it.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

Well said.

Re: If

[Grishnakh]

I don't know about your conspiracy theory, but I had a phone interview with Google, and I wasn't too impressed. Personally, my theory is that Google's recruiters are incompetent 20-something girls fresh out of college and sororities, and they're just contacting people to do make-work and justify their salaries. And then the obnoxious and arrogant 20-something male developers who conduct the initial phone interviews are only doing it because it's part of their job, and don't really want to hire anyone.

It's like the old maxim: never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Organizations are always coming up with stupid policies for various reasons, and then the people who work there simply carry them out. That's the impression I got of Google. In my case, my resume quite clearly shows I have a EE degree and hardware background, and all my programming experience is low-level embedded stuff, and the phone interviewer immediately asked me a bunch of CS algorithm questions. I don't have a CS degree, so of course that stuff is not my strong suite nor do I want a job doing algorithmic stuff. But from what I read, that's exactly how Google interviews are. I seriously wonder how they get any engineering work done that doesn't involve heavy CS stuff. Maybe they just outsource it.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody is asking white males to ask for forgiveness - only to help dismantle the system that disproportionately favours them.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

This mirrors my experience as well. 20-something recruiter signed me up for a battery of interviews in an area I'd worked in some years prior and clearly stated I was rusty at. She scrambled to find replacements morning of, which I think hurt my chances even more as the interviewers probably had little time to prep, had their day unexpectedly upended, and in a less-than-ideal mindset to give me a chance. But it works as intended. They care about false-positives, and care little for false-negatives. The burden is on you, it's not a two-way street as much as they claim it is.

Re: If

[greenfruitsalad]

as long as you don't dress like a gangsta, walk with the "pimp limp" and aks tings with a grammar of a 4 year old, NOBODY is going to throw obstacles under your feet.

this is a 10 minute video where your indoctrination meets reason - https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re: If

[KingBenny]

Its somewhat hard to believe a winner-corp like gugglez would select based on age or gender or whatever since at that i-beat-yo-ass-like-you-was-microsoft-back-in-the-days-level i think its unlikely they'd not go for the best person for the job regardless what
its possible however and this is where i insert my fiendish meme : in a free market in a democracy you can hire or sack whoever the fuck you want since its your company ... im all for gender equality and all that, and all against discrimination but im certainly all againt what they call here "positive" discrimination. It leads to political parties filling ranks to get quota, not to get the best people they can have, it leads to the township leading others into temptation of racism and xenofobia cos they need to fill ranks , regardless of skill, theres HAS to be x women, there HAS to be X ethnics. Its highly unlikely that this does not ever get in the way of getting the best team you could have. and THAT is the major problem
so if google doesnt want to, they're missing out on the 40+ guys who do it cos they like it cos they're the best at it. If they hire them cos they have to fill quota they will end up with a badly balanced team.
this 'free' world is REALLY overregulated bureaucracy, when i talk to people who live in not-free places like russia or china or vietnam where they get flogged everyday and have to give half their sandwich to putin or get shot i always correct them into it's a western bureaucracy, not a democracy, highly overrated

Re: If

[Grishnakh]

This can't be good for the company as a whole either. They're wasting money on these ditzy 20-something sorority-girl recruiters' salaries, they're wasting highly-paid developers' time on interviewing candidates for positions they're unqualified for, and there've been a bunch of articles about how bad Google's hiring process is and how it's keeping out the best candidates.

Sooner or later, the house of cards is going to tumble. The company can only get away with milking its cash cows of search, GMail, Maps, Android stuff, and Adwords/Adsense for so long. Well, I guess we've probably said the same thing about MS for a couple decades now, and they're still chugging along, so maybe Google will too, while constantly blowing money on side projects and then canceling them before anyone's even heard about them, and wasting money on terrible interview practices.

Re: If

[rholtzjr]

I have had a similar experience with Amazon. Going through their interview process to demonstrate CS101 type questions (which I haven't encountered in over 15 years) only to be told that they chose someone else. I wouldn't have thought anything of it, but they contacted me 4 times after they chose someone asking me if I wanted to apply for an exciting position. I finally had to tell them that I had no interest in working for them ever and specifically told them to never contact me again. I wonder how long this will last.

Re: If

[Grishnakh]

I got contacted by them recently. I responded that I'm an embedded engineer and asked if the position dealt with embedded devices or not, since it looked like the position was for web stuff, and never heard back. Honestly, I expect this kind of incompetence (not understanding that embedded stuff is nothing like web stuff) from Indian "shotgun-style" recruiters, but not from internal recruiters for large, successful companies.

Re: If

[richieb]

This can't be good for the company as a whole either. They're wasting money on these ditzy 20-something sorority-girl recruiters' salaries,
Your attitude does not sound like Google material...

Re: If

[Grishnakh]

Yeah, I guess if a company really likes hiring incompetent ditzes to do their recruiting, maybe someone who calls them out on that isn't fit to work at their company...

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

Will those same people be asking non-whites or females to dismantle the systems which favor them where they have superiority?

What guage is used to determine when those are sufficiently dismantled? Who gets to decide when enough of what they have has been looted?

Once we have destroyed white men, and some other arbitrary demographic is in power, will you stand up with white men when they work to destroy it?

Lastly, do you realize how insane and evil your ideas are, when put to practical application?

Re: If

[richieb]

Sigh... I'm sure you insult your way to some great jobs...

Re: If

[Grishnakh]

It's not an insult if it's true. Do you have some more polite way of calling recruiters incompetent?

I do just fine finding jobs. The secret is not wasting a lot of time with incompetent recruiters. There's some good ones out there, plus you can easily get a lot of jobs by applying directly with companies (ones which aren't so incompetent with their hiring), and talking directly to hiring managers (who generally *are* competent, since they're the ones with open positions and know exactly what kind of candidates will and won't work).

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

I was approached by a google recruiter a few years ago and went through a phone screening. The recruiter (who was male, BTW) didn't understand the poorly-phrased questions he was asking.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

They aren't wasting money, these attractive girls give decent blowjobs. This will be downvoted because people don't want to admit that's what goes on, but I've worked at Google, and I've seen it.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. At 34 I have found it exceedingly difficult to be hired in the industry. Upon questioning, multiple recruiters have revealed that I am perceived as being "too expensive". I have been in the industry for 16 years.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a similar experience with Amazon. Rather annoying actually. These people just don't get it. They act like experienced software engineers who've spent decades honing their craft are just at their beck and call to be jerked around for whatever short term project they have in mind. They bother us because they're too damn cheap to pay for consultants with similar experience who actually do move from short term project to short term project. I find that it's better just to tell the recruiters right up front what it would take for me to quit and come work for them: a two year minimum guaranteed contract, with half the remainder due upon early separation regardless of the reason, and a signing bonus of one year's pay before I even walk through their door. That usually shuts them up quick because what they're actually looking for is a sucker who will move, work on their project for six months and then get laid off when it's no longer convenient to employ them.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. If there is favoritism I've never experienced it. The 1960s called, they want their antiquated viewpoints back.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

Honesty is the antithesis of Googliness.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

They aren't wasting money, these attractive girls give decent blowjobs. This will be downvoted because people don't want to admit that's what goes on, but I've worked at Google, and I've seen it.

Donald J. Trump, is that you?

No? Some other cretin who thinks that kind of "locker room talk" is funny then? FYI, none of the google recruiters who have contact me have offered sexual favors.

Now crawl back in your hole until you learn how real grown ups talk.

Re: If

[david_thornley]

Actually, I'd like to extend it to everyone. I haven't received special treatment, only good treatment, and although I'm not the one to ask (I have no experience not being a white male) it appears that lots of people who aren't white or male get treated worse.

Re: If

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably because they sensed the stick up your ass from a mile away and opted for more socially feasible candidates. Just because everyone finds you hideous doesn't mean office sex is a myth. Good thing you got that liberal arts degree though, im sure Gender Neutral Underwater Basket Weaving is gonna be a big market once the economy turns around.

I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is tough to teach an old dog new tricks.

Re: I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's hard to get an old dog to do tricks for 80 hours a week, and for the old dog to be happy about lowering his quality of life.

Re:I kid.

[hcs_$reboot]

It is tough to teach an old dog new tricks.

but an old dog knows already a lot of tricks, knows how to implement the tricks in such a way they can be extended later, and will not fall in most of the beginner traps when executing the tricks.

Re:I kid.

[jlowery]

I'm 58, last three years have be learning and developing in NodeJS, CouchDB, JQuery, Lodash, Async, etc. Right now am prototyping an architecture using Swagger and a127.

There are exceptions to every categorization. If you dismiss somebody as unable to learn because they are older, then you are prejudging them. That's age discrimination.

Re:I kid.

[ooloorie]

The problem is that few of these "new tricks" are actually new. People are rediscovering bad ideas, over and over again.

Re:I kid.

[naughtynaughty]

That might be a problem if old dogs were interviewing at Google.

If you were trying to refer to older people then I suggest you refrain from painting an entire group with your broad brush.

Re:I kid.

[50000BTU_barbecue]

Like teaching Google to hire people over 40.

Re:I kid.

[MightyMartian]

Exactly. I hear about these "new tricks" all the time, and then it will twig something in my memory; either I did it, or I read an article about how IBM prototyped it int he 1960s or something along those lines.

Re: I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but you might retire or die at a much higher rate than a younger, already cheaper employee, who's willing to work longer hours.

It's not about knowing things, it's about being their slave for a long time.

Re:I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is tough to teach an old dog new tricks.

but an old dog knows already a lot of tricks, knows how to implement the tricks in such a way they can be extended later, and will not fall in most of the beginner traps when executing the tricks.

and knows how to avoid being scammed by the on-staff undercover female cops (decoys).

Re: I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the flip side, younger works tend to job hop more frequently and tend to engage in more risky behavior.

Re: I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

While we're generalizing based on age:

1) as young people build their experience, many tend to jump from job to job after a shorter stay in order to get a raise or broaden their experience.
2) i'd say it's more about paying young people less, as older people tend to get paid more.
3) young people without families can work longer hours. See #2, getting paid less.

Re:I kid.

[thegarbz]

The problem is that few of these "new tricks" are actually new. People are rediscovering bad ideas, over and over again.

And so it should come as no surprise that they won't hire experts who argue against them.

Re:I kid.

[ooloorie]

And so it should come as no surprise that they won't hire experts who argue against them.

Yes, that's kind what I'm getting at, Captain Obvious.

However, companies should be free to screw themselves in whatever way they want.

Re:I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait these clowns trying to explain why you need 100 lines code, a transpiler and knoweledge of css+js+typescript+node+whatever they can pile up to write an angular js hello world "application".

Re:I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just use Chrome to see the most idiotic memory management architecture ever conceived. Young dog thinking at its best - delegate memory management to a container an old dog (Lars) somewhere designed. Spawn more containers!

Re: I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Its just a symptom. The underlying issue is gerrymandering productivity metrics by writing project requirements towards the latest flavor of IDE, RCS, language, and design process that schools imprint on new grads. It is actually an optimal strategy to keep labor costs down by rotating the stock of workers.

Re: I kid.

[richieb]

Actually younger employees tend to get married and have children. In terms of medical insurance having children is a lot more expensive. Plus all the high tech companies offer paternity leave or 90 days or more. So I'm not sure who is cheaper.

Re: I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

And an old dog knows the difference between working long hours because something needs it and working long hours to keep up appearances.

That's the real reason for age discrimination: people put up with less management bullshit when they gain experience, and management's little feelings get hurt when someone calls them on their crap.

Re: I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Once the young employees get married and have kids, it's time to boot them out for someone younger, cheaper, and more loyal to the company.

Re:I kid.

[m00sh]

I'm 58, last three years have be learning and developing in NodeJS, CouchDB, JQuery, Lodash, Async, etc. Right now am prototyping an architecture using Swagger and a127.

There are exceptions to every categorization. If you dismiss somebody as unable to learn because they are older, then you are prejudging them. That's age discrimination.

I always think it's a young developer's thing to name drop technologies they are learning.

The great older developers are past that phase and actually have created or worked on creating or improving the modern software technologies, not just merely learning them.

Re:I kid.

[johannesg]

I'm 45 and have not noticed any change in my ability to learn new stuff. What I have noticed is a decline in my willingness to put up with BS. You want me to work 14 hours per day? Uhm. No. I have a life. Ask that 22-year old fresh out of university without any serious experience, he'll fall for that.

Does that make me less employable? Not really. Of course employers will know I have this attitude, but everyone over 40 does, so the fact that I feel that way doesn't change much for me personally.

Once again, it is not about being able to learn, it is about what you will put up with. Once you are over 40, the kind of treatment you will accept shrinks dramatically, and with it, your employability.

Re:I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

https://hackernoon.com/how-it-feels-to-learn-javascript-in-2016-d3a717dd577f#.ima7p0eob

Sometimes learning new things make you appreciate the old things and not having to constantly reinvent the wheel. Being over 40 myself I begin to circle around to the tried and true technologies that just worked to begin with and didn't need multiple levels of complexity added to them.

Re:I kid.

[david_thornley]

Yeah, but on occasion the tricks didn't work back in the old days and will now. My wife wanted something like an iPad back in the 1980s, to give a hardware example.

Re:I kid.

[jlowery]

Very funny. Sharing at work.

"Web speed" is still going at web speed. Our servers are still running Node v0.11.4, and I believe the current version is 4.6-something. Keeping up with the versions is work in itself.

Re: I kid.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know all the old tricks and new tricks. I stay current on all programming tech and styles. I am 60. I help folks of all ages be better coders. I recently passed an on-site Google interview in Mountain View by finding first the brute force solution and then the optimal one. A week later HR calls and says I'm not good at algorithms! Weird since not only do I teach it, I had the highest grades in school for it - and believe me, little munchkin, algorithms are 90% the same as they were 20 years ago.

who cares

[Anonymous Coward]

everyone should join a lawsuit against everyone else. Happy suing!

Typical google

[Anonymous Coward]

> Google says it's fighting the suit.

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?

Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[Anonymous Coward]

Google doesn't deserve to get away with this, nor does anyone else. Companies may be in the business of making money, who gives a fuck, but we as a society deserve better. Western civilization was founded on high standards and greater morals. Now that we live in a society where our values have been replaced with censorship, we have universities & colleges reinstituting racial segregation, and companies outsourcing jobs and benefits that we have enjoyed for decades, it won't be long before a bloody civil war breaks out or civilization collapses as a whole.

These companies want malleable young employees who have no self-esteem or regard for others. They want to shape them into being slaves who accept shit and thank their lucky stars they're allowed to suck on the toes of those better than them. All these young bucks in "tech" today with their plaid shirts, goony hipster douche beards and complete cultural and social ignorance are exactly why the old guys who laid the foundations are no longer welcome, because they expect better, deserve better, and won't take shit.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[ooloorie]

These companies want malleable young employees who have no self-esteem or regard for others. They want to shape them into being slaves who accept shit and thank their lucky stars they're allowed to suck on the toes of those better than them.

Even if that were true, so what? MacDonald's made a successful business out of replacing experienced cooks with well-defined processes and inexperienced young staff. Are you going to force MacDonald's to hire 40+ experienced French chefs and operate their automated deep fryers? What 40+ experienced French chef would even want such a position?

Just like lots of other industries, the software industry is constantly changing. Companies like Google are the software equivalent of large, fast-food restaurant chains. There is no point in complaining about it, and there is nothing to be done about it. Just deal with it: there are plenty of other jobs around.

Re: Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[Anonymous Coward]

civil war will break out, white nationalists and breitbart goons will be contained in ohio, and the rest of the free world can go on creating the multiethnic gay quinoa-cereal hipster instagram future without interruption from 19th century holdovers.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[Anonymous Coward]

These companies want malleable young employees who have no self-esteem or regard for others. They want to shape them into being slaves who accept shit and thank their lucky stars they're allowed to suck on the toes of those better than them.

Even if that were true, so what? MacDonald's made a successful business out of replacing experienced cooks with well-defined processes and inexperienced young staff. Are you going to force MacDonald's to hire 40+ experienced French chefs and operate their automated deep fryers? What 40+ experienced French chef would even want such a position?

Just like lots of other industries, the software industry is constantly changing. Companies like Google are the software equivalent of large, fast-food restaurant chains. There is no point in complaining about it, and there is nothing to be done about it. Just deal with it: there are plenty of other jobs around.

The point is that 40+ French chefs should be the ones to decide whether or not they want to work the fryer.
The hiring company cannot use "they wouldn't want it anyway" as an excuse to refuse to interview/hire a 40+.
I heard that excuse used endlessly as to why we didn't interview blacks or women where I worked back in the 1960's and 70's

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I did something better. I completely stopped purchasing ANYTHING from McDonald's. This is even more reinforced by a former CEO, Ed Rensi stating "I will replace all with a $35k robot before I will pay 15/hr for employees" Story here. All to preserve my million dollar lifestyle.

The company later restated they won't replace them YET.

Your solution of starting a different career after 20+ years is vaguely similar to "let's increase H1B visa limits" argument that has been going on. Let them find another job after contributing over half their life. We want cheaper labor. There is no point in fighting this as it is inevitable. Just accept it.

Your weak mind control through suggestion has failed as does your argument.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[sjames]

If a 40 year old french chef actually wants the job even at an hourly rate that McDs is willing to pay, why not? It's not as if the employee gets to decide the pay after being hired.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[Grishnakh]

but we as a society deserve better. Western civilization was founded on high standards and greater morals.

Huh? WTF are you talking about? Western civilization was founded on conquering. Go read about the history of the Roman Empire; it was all about conquering as much land as possible and setting up trade networks for economic benefit. "High standards and greater morals" weren't part of it. Later on, Christianity took over, and then the feudal ages came, and Christians were burning each other at the stake for being the wrong kind of Christian. Not to mention all the stupid wars between feudal lords. No high standards or greater morals there either.

I don't know of any large society in human history "founded on high standards and greater morals". Any time those things have happened, it's been by accident, mainly because a society has finally gotten to a place where its citizens had enough power and wealth to worry about such things instead of just survival.

Re: Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[Anonymous Coward]

French chefs can work at McDonald's but they will get paid the normal rate like everyone else. If McDonald's said you cant work here because your a chef that's insane. If they said you cant work here because you're demanding 300k a year that's different.. what a stupid analogy you used wow

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[ooloorie]

If a 40 year old french chef actually wants the job even at an hourly rate that McDs is willing to pay, why not?

Well, that's a big "if". Most senior developers wouldn't be willing to be hired into an entry level position at entry level salaries.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[sjames]

So what's the need for age discrimination? Let the company make the offer it intended to make and leave it up to the applicant to accept or not.

Of course, the real answer is that they don't want to hire the senior guy even if he finds the offer acceptable because they intend to boil the frog. They intend to have routine "emergencies" and a never ending "need" to all pull together for the team to meet a tight deadline (which will be promptly replaced with a new tight deadline). Effectively they want to silently alter the deal after the fact by demanding a job and a half or two jobs worth of work for one job's pay.

They fear that the older worker will have seen it all before and insist on the deal that was freely offered and accepted.

So if you're in your 20s and considering an employer, look around. If you see signs of age discrimination, you can expect to be scammed once you've settled in. Mentally divide that pay they're offering by 1.5-2 to see what they're really offering you for the standard salaried position then kiss that work-life balance goodby.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[ooloorie]

Of course, the real answer is that they don't want to hire the senior guy even if he finds the offer acceptable because they intend to boil the frog.

Correct: the more senior an applicant is, statistically, the less malleable and the less flexible they tend to be. Furthermore, the older applicants get, the less they are willing to put up with b.s., if not for any other reason than that they usually have more job options. Hence, companies are not discriminating based on age, they are discriminating based on malleability and flexibility.

Mentally divide that pay they're offering by 1.5-2 to see what they're really offering you for the standard salaried position then kiss that work-life balance goodby.

Again, correct: this is what starting a successful career in a competitive field has always been like. And anybody career oriented with their head screwed on has figured that out since their college days. It's a necessary consequence of having a merit- and performance-based society.

So what's the need for age discrimination? Let the company make the offer it intended to make and leave it up to the applicant to accept or not.

Where is the evidence that that's not exactly what they are doing, for applicants that actually meet their requirements?

Re: Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually there's plenty to be done about it. Laws can be very effective. For example, the cure for McDonald's is increased wages and frankly a return to work permits and strict regulations on hiring people still in high school. That used to work. The idea is to increase family income at maybe the price of kids not gaining 'valuable work experience' or whatever bullshit they call it.

We went from some kids wanting to work to kids needing to work because we allowed these large corporations to drive down wages by hiring very young people to replace full timers. It's ultimately been bad for all of us. There's not 'nothing' we can do about it though. Corporations will have to do what they're told, and they're absolutely desperate that people not think of that.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[sjames]

this is what starting a successful career in a competitive field has always been like.

Incorrect. If it's not too late, spit that cool aid out now. You are talking of the "new reality". This is actually a good illustration. If you were old enough to be discriminated against, you might actually remember a time when people were expected to be productive while at work and then go home at 5 P.M. unless there was a truly exceptional circumstance (not the emergency excuse of the week). For those few jobs where crunch times were intrinsic, the employees were likely to be free to leave early or take a day off between the crunch times.

If management is competent and the compensation is adequate, crunch times will be few and far between.

Re: Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[Anonymous Coward]

Your solution turns McDonald's into a very large walk in vending machine (with seating). Which is what the CEO is betting on.

Best of luck giving the CEO what he wants and taking low skill labour out of the market.

Re: Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally agree. This is the modus operandi for most organizations these days.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[ooloorie]

You are talking of the "new reality"

There is nothing "new" about it: if you want to be on the top of your field, whether it's music, science, engineering, computer programming, business, law, medicine, or anything else, you have to work very, very hard. Some of the hardest working and lowest paid workers are, in fact, grad students and early career academics. I don't see why it should work any differently for some of the top corporations in the country.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[sjames]

Enjoy your cool aid slaveboy. Do try this tonight when you're working late again, look around and ask yourself who's there to notice. Especially look around and see how many people who already got ahead of where you are are still there with you.

Now consider all the productivity studies that demonstrate diminishing returns after 6 hours in a day.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[ooloorie]

Do try this tonight when you're working late again, look around and ask yourself who's there to notice.

I notice. I love what I'm doing, and it benefits me as much as my company (since I get paid to work on open source projects).

Of course, this may be hard for you to understand, given that your business appears to be supporting outdated Linux cluster solutions.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[sjames]

You're sounding more than a little defensive there.

Unless you are writing your own performance reviews and get to decide on your own raise and other advancements, you noticing makes not one whit of difference and adds no support to your previous argument.

How would leaving on time hinder you from working on free software in your free time?

So that leads to the next question, who notices if you leave promptly at the end of office hours?

As for my work, it's quite interesting actually. I have at various times delved into supercomputing, BIOS, embedded hardware and microcontrollers. Hardware and software.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[ooloorie]

and adds no support to your previous argument.

Really? What argument did you imagine I was making?

As for my work, it's quite interesting actually. I have at various times delved into supercomputing, BIOS, embedded hardware and microcontrollers. Hardware and software.

Sure--a decade ago.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[sjames]

If you don't remember the argument you were trying to make it's probably because you keep working past the point where fatigue saps productivity. I suggest you scroll up a few messages to remind yourself what you were saying.

As for the rest, This month actually except for the BIOS. Working smarter has it's advantages.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[ooloorie]

I suggest you scroll up a few messages to remind yourself what you were saying.

I suggest you do the same thing. You'll find that I simply concluded that these complaints lacked a rational basis and even if they were true, wouldn't matter.

As for the rest, This month actually except for the BIOS. Working smarter has it's advantages.

I'm sure you "delved" into these things, they are simply dull and boring, that there are tons of other people with similar skills, and that there is little demand or need for those skills in the job market anymore. If you interviewed anywhere, companies wouldn't discriminate you based on your age, but based on your skillset and your attitude, and they would be perfectly justified in doing so. On the other hand, being an older worker, you managed to find an economic niche that (apparently) works for you and have learned to be satisfied with it, so you don't need to go job hunting.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[sjames]

Actually, you claimed that the 40 hour workweek has never been a thing for professionals.

As for the rest, if you think embedded devices and microcontrollers are somehow obsolete, I would say you're either living under a rock or you have a bad case of the sour grapes. If it's the former, perhaps if you weren't so busy making charitable contributions to your employer's yacht fund, you would have time to notice these things.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[ooloorie]

Actually, you claimed that the 40 hour workweek has never been a thing for professionals.

I'm sorry, but you need to read that more carefully. What I said was "this is what starting a successful career in a competitive field has always been like." Do you understand the qualifications "starting", "successful", and "competitive"?

As for the rest, if you think embedded devices and microcontrollers are somehow obsolete

You misunderstood. I was just referring to your skills, based on your web site.

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[sjames]

Now if you can explain how a comment about starting a career is applicable to a seasoned veteran, you might just weasel out of it.

As for the rest, you are being snotty because I didn't fall on my knees and kiss your feet when I saw your obviously divine correctness. Mighty big attitude for a willing slave boy. I doubt very much that you have any relevant knowledge to judge what is or is not current technology in any of the areas I mentioned.

And note, while starting a career has always involved some after hours studying, it didn't always involve working stupid long extra hours. The new guy went home with everyone else.

Re: Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[sethstorm]

Just deal with it: there are plenty of other jobs around.

Given the push to avoid hiring citizens:
[Citation needed]

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[ooloorie]

Now if you can explain how a comment about starting a career is applicable to a seasoned veteran, you might just weasel out of it.

It is decidedly not applicable to a "seasoned veteran". That is the point: seasoned veterans tend not to be willing to do the kinds of things that kids starting out are willing to do. That was your very own diagnosis. That means that companies like Google are not engaging in age discrimination, but rather that older workers are objectively different from younger workers.

As for the rest, you are being snotty because I didn't fall on my knees and kiss your feet when I saw your obviously divine correctness. Mighty big attitude for a willing slave boy.

Honey dearest, you are a boring engineer eeking out a living in the South and apparently feeling bitter about it. That's why you keep chiming in about what politicians should do to address supposedly horrible injustices in high tech. And, to be certain, I wouldn't want you to kiss any part of my body.

Re: Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[ooloorie]

Given the push to avoid hiring citizens: [Citation needed]

Yeah, you do need a citation for your bullshit claim that there is a "push to avoid hiring citizens".

Re:Age Discrimination is real and everywhere

[sjames]

Seasoned veterans don't NEED to do the things students do, because they're already up to speed. Anything beyond extra study to come up to speed you imagine is another word for being taken advantage of by a sleezy employer.

Enjoy your sour grapes and cool aid.

Is it how it works in the US?

[hcs_$reboot]

So, say two guys apply for a job, they're not really motivated and seem quite incompetent ... *but* they're over 40... then they *must* be hired??

Re:Is it how it works in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. But if a range of 100 equally qualified and motivated people apply and only women under age 40 are hired, there's a problem.

Re:Is it how it works in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

No...thing is...the 40 year old can't be discounted (nor the 50 yr old...) just because they're that age- which happens quite a bit more than you are willing to own based on the question you just asked.

Re:Is it how it works in the US?

[Mashiki]

Only applies to women because diversity. The men wouldn't be hired anyway, google would have already put in applications for H1B's and claimed there's no people capable of doing the job.

Re:Is it how it works in the US?

[Calydor]

And the PROBLEM is that the employer is trying to fill their diversity quota, and they're really low on women under 40 at the moment.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Re:Is it how it works in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exactly the kind of thing that "affirmative action" laws were designed to do in the U.S.: combat discrimination by forcing quotas on hiring minority groups. In this case, it would be age discrimination

Re: Is it how it works in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not unless their black, women, Asian, gay, transgender, etc.

If they're white, you can just tell them to fuck off.

Re: Is it how it works in the US?

[nehumanuscrede]

Why not, it's exactly how affirmative action works.

You don't even have to be capable or qualified for the job but, because of some quota stating you must hire X minorities, they will get the job before you do.

Re:Is it how it works in the US?

[Solandri]

The population of people working in the field may differ substantially from the general population in terms of race or gender. The genetics or cultural backgrounds of certain races may bias them towards or away from certain professions (e.g. African Americans disproportionately overrepresented in athletics and music). Differences in what activities males and females enjoy may cause them to gravitate towards or away from different professions. So simply comparing the breakdown of the job population to the general population (as the mass media likes to do) isn't sufficient evidence for proving gender or race discrimination.

Age is totally different. Everyone gets older. So for the most part the age distribution of qualified people matches the age distribution of the general population. There are some smaller deviations (e.g. older people preferring email, younger people preferring SMS), and certain jobs are age-specific (a 20-something marketer may be better at marketing a product for 20-somethings). But in general technical competence is biased in favor of older workers (they have more experience). So for more difficult jobs, you should actually find a pro-old age bias (i.e. younger people are more likely to burger flippers, older people in higher positions like management). If you find the opposite, that's a pretty big red flag that discrimination may be going on.

Re:Is it how it works in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at Google and I've seen salaries of both, and they're the same. Sure, there are contractors and whatnot, but boatloads of full time H1Bs paid the same salary/bonus/stock as trailer-loads of non-H1Bs. So if you want to spread that FUD, point to the appropriate companies, not Google. kkthxbye

Re:Is it how it works in the US?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you find the opposite, that's a pretty big red flag that discrimination may be going on.

But not necessarily deliberately. That's the interesting thing about Google and lots of companies like it; they're so concerned about not accidentally picking up dead wood that they err on the side of rejection. As a result, plenty of competent programmers (young and old alike) don't make it through the process because they don't test well.

Unfortunately, the older you are and the less job hopping you've done, the harder it is to remember stuff that you don't use frequently. Experience teaches you how to choose a good algorithm. Programming skill tells you how to convert the algorithm into actual code. Wikipedia lets you save your limited brain capacity for useful information (e.g. commonly encountered bugs, commonly used methods, etc.) rather than algorithms that you can look up in five seconds in the rare event that you might need them. As a result, if you asked any experienced programmer to implement a sorting algorithm or balanced tree from memory, they'd go slack-jawed. There's just no valid reason to know that stuff off the top of your head. You should (statistically speaking) implement such things between zero and one times over your entire career. If you're doing it more often than that, something is wrong.

But those are the sorts of questions that interviewers often ask because they're readily available. And that almost certainly creates an unintentional bias towards people who are either straight our of school or who took extra time to practice those sorts of interview questions specifically to get the job. On the one hand, that does mean that the experienced people who get hired are people who really want to work there. On the other hand, it can lead to a shortage of truly experienced people, because (as one of my friends put it) most experienced programmers don't really want to jump through hoops and speed-write code in front of an audience on demand.

Re: Is it how it works in the US?

[stealth_finger]

Not unless their black, women, Asian, gay, transgender, etc.

Not unless their black, women, Asian, gay, transgender, etc what?

Re:Is it how it works in the US?

[ThatsNotPudding]

How it works in Silicon Valley is you find the most desperate person in Southeast Asia willing to work 80 hours a week for slave wages, take their CV, remove their name, and turn it into a job posting.

Over 40 turned down by Google

[gatkinso]

For no other reason than I flubbed an easy problem during the interview.
Not sure that Brain Fart is grounds for a lawsuit.

Re: Over 40 turned down by Google

[Anonymous Coward]

Same here; I got stuck trying to show off in the middle of creating a regex to split a csv file (with quotes and escaped chars) because I simply forgot about a negative look behind. Though, I felt old there anyway (at 38), and probably wouldn't have accepted an offer; that campus and environment is totally for kids without families.

I'm pretty sure I got turned down at LinkedIn, though. I didn't screw up the interview, and was quite well qualified. But a day after I got my "it was close, but we're going with someone else" call, they published a press release saying that they're going to make an effort to get more diversity on the staff. I'm pretty sure "thirty something white male who's good but maybe not a rock star" doesn't help with diversity.

Re: Over 40 turned down by Google

[Anonymous Coward]

As a sales rep, I visit a lot of companies in the SV and outside. I don't see a lot of whites or blacks at any of these companies once I get passed the white or black security guard.

Re:Over 40 turned down by Google

[DoofusOfDeath]

Exact same thing happened to me when I had a Google phone screen at age 41. I'm not sure what happened - it was the first time ever that I did that. My best guess is that I was wound too tightly because I was interviewing with Google.

But could it have been age? I can't say no for sure. I've definitely seen some changes to how my mind performs at I get into my lower 40's. It hasn't necessarily been a net negative, but I'm certainly a little less sharp in some categories of mental function.

I think many of us software developers share a fear that the ageism we face is partially valid.

Re:Over 40 turned down by Google

[rtb61]

There is no doubt Google is very much ageist, that can not be denied, extremely so. The real problem with older coders is they do not keep up with newer languages in sufficient numbers (averages) to show they are capable of it and hence are a bad bet. They can test for this but they simply take the easier options. Get inexperienced coders, ad in a modicum of training, mainly on the job, and when they get expensive turn them over for the new batch. Reality is over 40 don't bother with Google as far as they are concerned you are not a good fit.

Re:Over 40 turned down by Google

[gatkinso]

Not my impression at all. The recruiter flat out told me that their hiring process was very much in favor of recent grads for one reason only: much of the material that pops up in many of the interviews is covered in an academic setting and theif you graduated long ago you had probably forgotten a lot of it.

Google was interested in me be extremely proficient in C, Java, or C++. At least for this position they didn't care about anything else. Flat out did not care.

Aside from that, it was algorithmic and data structure type questions. Sorting questions, stuff like that.

My screw up was that after 20 or so years I had forgotten the difference between theta and omega notation when analyzing the growth rate of my sort routine - I switched them. That did me in. Oh well.

Re:Over 40 turned down by Google

[Anonymous Coward]

Age had nothing to do with that. I interviewed with them when 23, messed up an easy question, and didn't get hired. When you fail an interview (by doing anything not perfectly), you have no grounds to even bring up age discrimination.

Old Skills

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody needs some old codger concerned about saving a few Mb. Memory is free! Furthermore, memory management is hard, so let java do it for you.

Nobody needs some old codger concerned about shaving off a few million cpu cycles, cpu cycles are free, furthermore, that is hard, so let java do it for you.

Nobody needs some old codger who can write directly to hardware, that's hard, so let java do it for you.

Nobody needs some old cranky idiot to piss all over the programming language of the day. C/C++ is hard, so just use java.

Nobody needs "old dogs" that know "old tricks"...that ship has sailed. Jump into the future.

Re:Old Skills

[ooloorie]

Plenty of companies need those "old codgers", and big tech companies, including Google, have hired them: Gosling, Thompson, Weinberger, Pike, plus thousands more.

But memory, CPU, hardware, memory management, etc. don't matter for the bulk of computer programming. That's why these companies need only a small number of "old codgers" and a large number of coding drones who grind out large amounts of Java and JavaScript, and do all the other, boring, tedious tasks that software development requires these days.

Re:Old Skills

[jlowery]

Most (nearly all) performance issues I have seen are due to naive assumptions built into the implementation. And poor coding. Things like using Exceptions for logic flow, re-instantiating objects that were instantiated earlier in the call stack, building an in-memory database that is slower than the network lag you were trying to avoid, similar logic scattered throughout the code due to cut-n-paste, etc.

No amount of low-level optimization is going to make up for high-level implementation mistakes.

Re:Old Skills

[lgw]

Nobody need some old codger who can't hear that whooshing sound unless he turns up his hearing aid.

Re: Old Skills

[nehumanuscrede]

The fact he can't hear all the office gossip / bullshit means he's able to concentrate on his work instead of contributing to the problem :)

Re:Old Skills

[ooloorie]

Nobody need some old codger who can't hear that whooshing sound unless he turns up his hearing aid.

Well, you sure missed the whooshing sound.

See, what was getting at is that the "Old Skills" post was wrong both in the literal and in the sarcastic interpretation. In reality, companies do need "old codgers", just not very many of them; that's why many "old codgers" have trouble finding jobs even though their skills are still needed.

Re:Old Skills

[dgatwood]

But memory, CPU, hardware, memory management, etc. don't matter for the bulk of computer programming.

Maybe you missed the mobile device revolution, but keeping memory and CPU usage within sane bounds matters an awful lot these days.

Re:Old Skills

[ooloorie]

Maybe you missed the mobile device revolution, but keeping memory and CPU usage within sane bounds matters an awful lot these days.

That's a losing battle, since the frameworks (Java, JavaScript, Swift, etc.) themselves end up being extremely bloated. Furthermore, phones have GB of memory these days, which is vast overkill for the trivial little programs people tend to write for them.

over 40 means working 40

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you want those people over 40 because the demographics are trending to a more aged population, and those over 40 want to be working 40 hours a week so the motivation is high to build things that are reliable. I don't necessarily care about redoing something every 6 months in its entirety; I want to build something that can be extended and enhanced without re-inventing the wheel. If the person isn't qualified that's one thing, but eventually the young people will be 40, and if you're male then watch out for Marissa too.

Re: over 40 means working 40

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus hiring an older person means they will retire quicker

Have you not seen Logan's Run?

[Anonymous Coward]

Course not, you're under the required age. Over 40 = obsolete.

If you're over 40 you shouldn't have to work

[Anonymous Coward]

Work is for young people, animals, and machines. All this "new" automation needs to be conscripted to meet the needs of the retirees. By the time you're 40 you should be able to retire if you wish.

Who would want to work at Google anyways?

[Sebby]

I'm not saying it's boring or unrewarding, I'm sure it's not, but from what I heard, they basically troll you through a dozen interviews or more - ain't nobody got time for that! (If you're in your forties, you likely have a family, etc. that takes up your time - I sure wouldn't appreciate having to go through that many interviews just to not get the job in the end. It would feel like they're just wasting my time after the 4th one - even if I did get the job).

Re:Who would want to work at Google anyways?

[Anonymous Coward]

For Software Engineers, it's usually 1-2 phone screens (depending on how well you do, 1 if you did well), and one on-site full day (5 interviewers). If you make it, you make it...if you don't, either they outright reject you, or you're close enough for another position, in which they interview you again for said position. Not sure where you got the "dozen interviews" from.

Re: Who would want to work at Google anyways?

[Anonymous Coward]

They stopped doing that years ago. Now it's standard "two phone screenings then on-site hour long one-to-ones for a day," like every other tech company does.

Re:Who would want to work at Google anyways?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am over 40 and interviewed at Google. Didn't get a job. That's fine. I have never before had such a strong feeling of "I don't want to work here" during an interview.

Lawsuit is Discriminatory

[Anonymous Coward]

I was rejected by Google at 33. However, I can't join the lawsuit because I'm not old enough. The lawsuit is clearly ageist. I'm going to sue the lawsuit.

Re:Lawsuit is Discriminatory

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do only old people get to sue for age discrimination? The amount of discrimination against the 18-25 crowd dwarfs this petty alleged issue.

Someone that sues because they didn't get the job, is not probably someone they wanted working for them.

Re:Lawsuit is Discriminatory

[BradMajors]

Complain to Congress not Google. Age discrimination of someone who is under 40 is legal.

Largely an issue with Overtime Exemptions.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Software development industry is a project-driven industry, exactly like building construction, but without the real-world constraints of material and space. The reason why building architects have to be so well educated and experienced is because simply the cost of material and labor spirals out of control when mistakes are made. We have the same exact problem in the software development industry, except the only input into projects are man-hours and CPU cycles. Nobody ever tracks the number of man-hours or the cost of mistakes in man-hours going into a software development project. Why? Because management is not motivated to respect the cost of time of the developer due to overtime exemptions.

Really the way this industry needs to work is a project is designed and then broken into discrete work units; if you don't dimension your program as a project and are hiring hourly staff to build something, you are going to be spending a lot of money building a shanty. Management then looks at the cost in man-hours of each work unit, and if a framework or programming language makes sense for that component, you compare the cost to develop in a big-5 language vs the cost to develop in the framework or smaller language and determine the cost savings. The business might even hand off a chunk of work to a developer under W9, but we are all familiar with the IRS basically telling management at every organization W9 staff who work IT or software development are employee's, so hiring a developer that built a unique framework to build something for a month or six is a no-go. We end up with 20 and 30 year old languages still being used as everywhere not because we couldn't do a lot better, but because the industry no small 2 or 3 man shop who builds a purpose-built framework has a way to get their foot in the door unless they are also presented as a worker from an outsourcing company or has a contract with an outsourcing company.

Companies then approach the software industry the same way they approach the construction industry; they flood the market with lots of cheap, foreign labor and more often than not, they produce functional albeit incredibly insecure and often buggy code. Classrooms reflect the animal-farm the industry has become; lots of inexperienced people with fancy college degree's who've spent their lives trying to make sense of and impart that sense of an industry that is unpredictable and a complete animal farm.

Largely, the IT industry has become a new way for the financial services companies (read: banks) to infect corporations with debt. IT Startups are given a startup loan and then are forced by the bank to exercise rent-seeking relationships with companies for a marginal return in value, tunneling their way in so if they are ever removed they produce immense damage to the organization. Bigger companies have stocks, and guess who owns those?

Fix the overtime exemptions and restore IT Workers's ability to work as an independent contractor, and a few things happen. First, it becomes really expensive to hire crappy developers, so a lot of bad programmers get fired and the industry immediately begins working on metrics for tracking programming work for which each company is going to be different. Second, management is now motivated to train staff as part of projects, and have staff participate in industry trade groups to help keep the company competitive. Third, government will be forced into recognizing ridiculous EULA are ridiculous because of lawsuits between small companies. Finally, and most importantly, programming and software development become solid middle class jobs again and the classrooms will again have extremely high standards.

Re:Largely an issue with Overtime Exemptions.

[dougg76]

Fantastic post.

You'll be there someday, if you're not already

[Ramley]

There are a lot of good comments about older developers who are more than qualified in numerous ways in the tech world today.

For the younger guys who are developers: Use those long-term thinking skills and remember where you might be in XX years.

Are you a person who loves to learn (and keep up with) new technologies and solve real problems, and has learned a lot over the first few years of your career?
Do you think you'll be any different any years down the road (other than being more experienced and more mature maybe)?

If so, then welcome to the life of may older developers. Granted, some people don't keep up nor want to, but the same can be said for virtually any age group.

My point is simply: Be careful who you prejudge as you will potentially be an older developer one day yourself. Unless you've gone into another role/career or made your retirement $$ before age 40, be kind to the ones who can offer a lot of talent, even at their age.

Thanks for reading.

Re:You'll be there someday, if you're not already

[Bing Tsher E]

The problem is that the people 'in charge' (management) are the people who DO NOT love to learn, keep up with new technologies and solve real problems. They are the people who took CSci in College because they thought it might be a lucrative career. The people who step up into managment or sales positions as soon as they can because for them engineering is a 'drudgery.'

They can't possibly imagine why any of their peers in engineering would like that stuff, and they figure if someone is 35 and hasn't 'stepped up' into a non-Engineering position, they are some kind of loser.

When you were in school, they were the fucker who got pissed off if you asked a professor (because you wanted to know more) a question during the lecture that wouldn't appear on that week's test.

Re:You'll be there someday, if you're not already

[Anonymous Coward]

Younger developers with long-term thinking skills plan to make the transition to management or start their own successful business before they get old. On the other hand, if you're the autistic nerd who keeps quiet and just follows orders from his cubicle then you can look forward to a mid-life career change to Mcdonalds. Hustle or die bitches. That's the law of the jungle, always has been, always will be.

Re:You'll be there someday, if you're not already

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people prefer moving up to management because they have a good handle on the job and want more control over the projects. Why is that wrong? Why do you think only bad engineers want to manage? Would you trust someone who doesn't know anything about your job to manage you? I sure as hell wouldn't, and I've experienced it. There's a reason why experienced people go on to manage their juniors in the same field.

I got 'screwed' at National Instruments

[Anonymous Coward]

At National Instruments, if you don't have a degree from UT, then you are considered 'stupid'. And they treat you that way.

Can I sue?

Re:I got 'screwed' at National Instruments

[rholtzjr]

texas university (tu)?

Need I say more?

Hoist by their own petard

[Anonymous Coward]

Google totally deserves this, they've been a major supporter of the social-justice movement since forever. Companies seem to think that if they spend a lot of time and money cramming "diversity", "equality", "inclusion", etc. down everyone else's throats, they'll be left alone to hire and fire whomever they please. It doesn't work that way, suckers!

The H-1B visa created a huge loophole in the Civil Rights Act, because it lets you freely hire and fire anyone who is not a U.S. citizen. So it's illegal to discriminate against *some* Americans, but perfectly legal to discriminate against *all* Americans!

Interviewing at Google

[jszpilewski]

The Google interview process is famous for being hard to crack and I am pretty sure they would not object hiring someone over 40 if he passes it with flying colors. They even have on stuff some folks who remember Unix in its infancy. So it seems quite arrogant to claim being turned down only because of age. Whoever is suing will have hard time to provide proofs that Google is accepting less competent people than them just because the other ones are younger. The Google interview is just too rigorous to leave place for such manipulations and they do not have surplus of qualified candidates to discard them easily.

Re:Interviewing at Google

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that's the point - individuals who pass the tests but who aren't getting hired because they're over 40.

Re:Interviewing at Google

[dgatwood]

The people making the hiring decisions don't see you or your résumé. They just see the comments from the randomly selected interviewers. If you passed that test (answering the questions and being able to explain/defend your answers without coming across as an arrogant jerk), I don't see how an age-related bias could even be possible.

There could, however, be some sort of accidental systemic bias in the nature of the questions themselves. If so, that's worth investigating and fixing.

Re:Interviewing at Google

[dougg76]

Part of the problem with a lot of tech interviews is that by focusing on mostly academic questions, you will naturally end up with more younger recent grads than programmers who have been in the industry for a while and have not had to transverse a binary tree in 10+ years.

Using internships to get around discrimination

[Anonymous Coward]

I know plenty of companies in the Silicon Valley that use internships as a requirement to hire for a position. I don't know too many 40+ year olds, that would take a little to no pay 3month stint with a company. Having a spouse and kids isn't cheap. This gets around the ageism concerns as the internships are open to anybody, but you just don't see many 40yr olds applying...

Over 40 and get aggressive offers from Google

[Anonymous Coward]

I get offers from Google at time which are sometimes borderline violent like "You have to come work for us or else". They are sometimes vicious recruiters... and this is from Google calling with offers, not head hunters trying to make money on interviews.

If you are what they need, they really don't care about age. Now their policy of working in CA or Zurich for the first year is lame.

Good luck with the law suit.... it'all make some lawyer rich

Re:Over 40 and get aggressive offers from Google

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no policy of working in CA or Zurich for the first year. :-)

Job Hoping

[wisnoskij]

You would think with the incredible amount of job hopping that goes on nowadays, there simple is no one being hired right out of college, and then putting in 40 year in that company before retiring, that companies would prefer 35-50 year olds who are settled and who will not upend their life's to get a new job in some other city.

Hating Old People

[wisnoskij]

Personally, I doubt this has anything to do with if old people have the skills for the job, but a cultural one. Did you see the backlash from Brexit? The youth of today do not believe anyone over 29 should be allowed to vote as old people simply do not believe in the same things that the youth do. Perhaps if these 40-somethings went to the interview in a "*uck Trump" or "Black Lives Matter" t-shirt they might stand a better chance. But baring some form of virtue signaling the 20-something interviewee is likely to think that you look too much like the old fella that he stole a Trump 2016 yard sign from the day before.

Re:Hating Old People

[radish]

I'm in this category (40, interviewed and rejected at Google). Everyone who I spoke with during the day I was there was around my age (+/- 5 years). Yes, Google is a fairly young company as a whole but there are plenty of old farts like me in management.

Re:Hating Old People

[Anonymous Coward]

You couldn't even point to Britain on a map, let alone analyse its politics.

One thing is clear, a major factor is that they didn't want the polacks coming in. Looking at the shit you post, that's quite understandable.

There is also a B cohort

[EmperorOfCanada]

Keep in mind that there is also a large group of people (likely with no legal standing) who don't apply to companies that are known in the industry of only hiring below a certain age. Thus they don't even bother applying to companies like this. For this reason we need the government to step in and fine the shit out of companies like Google.

As someone over 40, I can say that there is a single benefit of hiring people at least in their late 20s and beyond. Most programmers that I have worked with who sucked, sucked because they had latched onto some technology cluster/methodology and would let go. It was group-think at its worst. One of the benefits of hiring someone with a decade or more experience is that it is easier to detect this. So if you see someone who has 20,000 certifications in a single technology stack over a long period of time and a resume with nothing else, it throws up a massive red flag. Then you can explore this in an interview. Is this their only hammer in the toolkit.

What also amazes me is that many people in their early 20s make it clear that they have largely learned all they plan on learning. Thus they have not only picked a technology, but a version of that technology. So I will walk into a consulting job where I have been brought in because the project has gone to complete hell. I will start looking at things like the overall systems architecture, the internal architecture, and finally the code and the methodologies for creating that code. It is not uncommon that it is a fairly good selection of the worst of breed everything. Someone who didn't know what they were doing made a prototype and then an entire system was built on that. So you get some Ruby, a bad choice of cloud provider, some bastardization of Azure, and they are using some slow as molasses IDE/build system that means 5 minutes between making a change and seeing the change work. Except they have 100,000 lines of this crap code.

But what amazes me is that the above story happens regardless of age. There is some myth that 20 somethings chase the node.js type things of the world and that the 50+ crowd is just decades out of date. The reality is that they are often both wrong but for different reasons. The 50+ crowd screw up because of the "This is how I have always done it." and the 20 year old versions of the same crap programmer is "This is how my professor said was the only way."

The key being that crap programmers are crap for reasons other than their age, and as I said, the advantage of getting someone with a bit of a resume is that their bad attitude is easier to detect.

Re:There is also a B cohort

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone who didn't know what they were doing made a prototype and then an entire system was built on that.

That may be more of a management problem. Requirements were unclear, a quick prototype was made, and it was tweaked in iterations until it did what management at that time wanted it to. Then it was put into production. ("Just a prototype? But it works, release it! And here's the next project, we need you to build new features on this other product we have.")

Counterexample

[wildsurf]

I interviewed for a high-level engineering position at Google last year at age 42, and was hired. Just saying.

Re:Counterexample

[richieb]

I was hired at Google when I was 56. Still there.

unaided internships are not legal

[Joe_Dragon]

unaided internships are not legal

Modern App Design

[fyngyrz]

...trying to explain why you need 100 lines code, a transpiler and knowledge of css+js+typescript+node+whatever they can pile up to write an angular js hello world "application" where the programmer spent 6 months agonizing about "UX", the post-build footprint is a five GB executable (not counting dragging in a few more GB of frameworks it needs to run), which in turn requires a 4 GHz multicore CPU to run it without dragging the computer to its knees, which would fall immediate prey to the first hacker who decides it's a target, will only run on the very, very latest bleeding-edge OS's, and turns out to be infected with the GPL so Corporation X's nest of lawyers forbids its use before it even gets to market anyway.

FTFY. :)

Recruiting

[fyngyrz]

There are some smaller deviations (e.g. older people preferring email, younger people preferring SMS),

And you would think that alone would cue recruiters that younger people typically think in much smaller chunks.

But then again, that would require the recruiter to think in larger chunks, and that... lol.

Phone Interviews, etc

[Anonymous Coward]

've had interviews with Google and other companies (on the phone), and I'd have to say that the person on the other end of the phone is simply reading questions off of a piece of paper (i.e. - use three words to describe yourself, etc). Phone Interviews of this type are an instant turn-off, as they sound like a pretext to hiring someone for an HR position, which isn't the path that most of us in here are trying to go.

That being said, another sad commentary is the lack of response you get from companies after having an interview (phone or in-person) with them (how long does it take to write the person an email saying that they weren't a good fit for the position in question)...Talk about a lack of manners in the hiring process...LOL

Re:Phone Interviews, etc

[dgatwood]

That first interview is what I've always informally called a "bozo screen". They mainly exist to keep from wasting a bunch of interviewers' time on somebody who has no prayer of getting hired.

This is where it helps to know somebody at the company where you want to work who will vouch for you. Most companies will skip the phone screen if you have good internal recommendations.

Then don't apply

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound like an extremely bitter individual who doesn't understand how recruiting, hiring and interviews work at a large tech company. There are always going to be big (often automated) fishnets thrown out to anyone with tech skills that say "Hey, I saw your profile on ____ and you look like a great fit! Please apply for this position!". If you're dumb enough to apply for something you're not qualified for, that's on you. Then those "arrogant 20-something males" are being forced to interview you because you applied for a position and you're wasting their time because you don't even know half the stuff required for the position you applied for.

If you don't have a CS degree, don't apply for a job requiring a CS degree because they WILL ask you the questions necessary for the degree. They're not going to say "Hey, this is a CS-heavy position, but you look like you care more about EE so let's focus on that".

Re:Then don't apply

[Grishnakh]

And you sound like a fucking arrogant moron who's shooting his mouth off about something he knows nothing about.

I didn't apply to a job requiring a CS degree, dipshit. Google didn't show me any kind of job requisition with any kind of detail about the position being hired for or its qualifications. It's no different from when I interviewed at Intel years ago; they just interview people willy-nilly, then bring them in and have them talk to a bunch of different managers and see who wants the candidate in their group. Intel's interview was pretty grueling, but nothing as ridiculous as Google's, and I got hired at Intel too.

It's the recruiter's and interviewer's responsibility to look at a candidate's resume and decide on an appropriate method of interviewing, given their skills. If they can't figure that out, they're wasting everyone's time. So fuck off with your shitty know-it-all attitude. It's not my fucking job to know how some company works internally. I've worked at multiple large companies (and interviewed at a bunch more) and I know perfectly well how interviewing works at them, and it's not all the same by a long shot. Some have fairly reasonable processes, but Google doesn't.

Don't apply if you don't qualify

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who has to do interviews at a tech company, I find this lawsuit both shocking and frustrating. I recently did a round of interviews where we had clearly posted the requirements for the position online. 95% of the resumes we received were for people focused on things that had nothing to do with our open position, but of those about 10% were people that had a lot of experience and seemed like they could pick up on skills quickly.

Guess what. The people with a lot of experience weren't 22-year-olds fresh out of college. They were people who were (or appeared to be) 40+.

So we interviewed those people. Some of them went well, some of them went terribly. We didn't discriminate on people based on age, we based it completely on _how_ they answered our questions. Have you not worked with X technology in 10 years? Tell me that instead of trying to BS an answer. A BS answer makes me think you don't know the answer, rather than you don't remember. We went through about 30 applicants for the one position. Am I discriminating against 40+ year olds because I didn't hire them? So should I have never given them an interview in the first place? Should I hire someone for my team who doesn't know the answers to interview questions because of they're older?

Re:Don't apply if you don't qualify

[oh_my_080980980]

FTA: "She also presented evidence to the court that the median age of Google's workforce is 29 while the median age in the US for programmers is 42.8 years old."

And, "Having such a policy does not necessarily shield a company from a discrimination suit, particularly in light of the evidence and allegations presented here ... today, most, if not all, companies are well versed in anti-discrimination and make great efforts to ensure their written policies comply with anti-discrimination law."

There should be nothing shocking about this, unless you think discrimination doesn't happen, which according to your post, you don't.

Salary and Work Hours

[Anonymous Coward]

Would 40s accept 50k-100k less for the same grueling 80 hours 20s are doing? The pool is much smaller so I wouldn't be surprise 40s headcount to be lower

If I walk into McDonald apply for a job I would be denied.

Value

[Anonymous Coward]

So i can hire a 24 year old that has no family, brand new mortgage, 8 year car loan and an 800 dollar phone likely on contract, or a 50 year old financially independant soon-to-be retiree with grown children, no mortgage, and possible health issues that can lead to disability like *that*.

Thanks grandpa but id rather hire the money hungry millenial that doesnt think he knows more than me because "muh experience" over the silver fox that for some reason wants a career change a decade or two from the grave.

Whats next, hiring women to fulfill mandatory gender quotas, despite better candidates being available? Oh shit... waitaminit....

Old and Fleek yo

[Anonymous Coward]

Waaah they didnt hire me, it must be because im insecure about being an old curmudgeon in a bleeding edge industry. Someone fresh out of college got hired? Bullshit! Im on fleek and with the hipness, i mean i can YOLO with the best of them. Who says only young people are in tune with what young people want. I betcha i can scrounge up some code to make a google app that really appeals to the youth of today. I know, a slide ruler app!

google, really?

[Anonymous Coward]

While I understand the angst here, it should be clear to anyone over 40 what is going on. Google is just SUN, jr,
Google hires a lot of cute young women from good schools who are stalking young, rich men, from good schools. The hiring helps both groups. But, those young women have to do something, so they are filters for interviewing old guys like me.
Google will be true to it's SUN Labs DNA and collapse under the weight of it's internal politics. Hiring 'only the best' lead to a Sun Labs group that spent more time trash talking other researcher's colleges during football or basketball season than they did working. The Labs were full of projects that demo'd great but never saw the light of day.
The 'best' are people who can get things out the door that are profitable and sellable.
Beyond search and ads, what have all the 'best' engineers developed that met the above criteria?

Re:Age and ability to learn aren't correlated

[GinaDEEE]

Studies that are coming out now are revealing that learning ability is not as impacted by age as "conventional" wisdom suggests. These same studies also show that older workers are MORE productive than younger workers as they tend to focus on the work. Even accounting for age-related costs increases in insurance, older workers are a good deal